11 - OSPMM controled tests w & w/o stator

[Hera1618]

Must be ordered movement ample leverage. To do this use your motion amplification that allows you lever principle. Move control lever pivot closer to the wheel and the lever pivot ordered him move away from the wheel. It would be nice if I could show a picture because I'm afraid you do not understand what I mean. I used google translate. I hope that the translation is ok. Good luck and I expect the new film with the necessary changes

[Luizopiloto]

seeing your video, I think I'v found the issue in your design, the movement amplitude of the stator are much short... so the oposing magnetic fields of the stators are interfering with the magnets on the wheel... adjusting the pivot of the upper arm more close to the linkage, and using some pieces of metal to balance the weight on the 2 arms, you can improve the movement of the stator...

[diablolorden]

You got one problem that i dont know how to fix there.... Friction, its slowing down everything, friction in the things the arms are attached with, and friction in the bottom thing the lower arm goes on and friction in the spinner.. only way i know to get rid of friction is by having air between all stuff, but that feels kinda impossible there... if you know what i mean :) something like /watch?v=CgHQw4KSpuw

[wcwiegman]

Dude, just make a slot instead of a hole in the top arm for the connecting rod to bolt through, with a sleeve/nut/bolt to clamp it in place and then you can fine tune the stroke length of the magnet.

[Ubefreetoo]

This Has been interesting, following your progress. I have a couple suggestions, for what they are worth. One, try using a circular flywheel instead of your battery. Also you might try shifting your sine wave linkage with a short delay or advance from where you are now. Might be worth the try if you haven't already.

[memormaplin]

I've so much enjoyed watching these experiments, keep at it. I was always taught that perpetual machines were impossible. "You cant get more out than has been put in" I really think one day you'll end this premise

Good Luck

[winstonthecat]

It's a lovely home engineering project and a lot of fun. Now learn the scientific lesson your painstaking research is telling you. This is the second law of thermodynamics in action. You've done nothing more than build that machine Feynman describes in ca. ch. 5 of the first volume of his lectures. You needn't carry on past here. It will not work. Read Feynman. Denis and his blocks. Laws of thermodynamics are immutable.

[artguess70]

@winstonthecat They told the Wright brothers they can't fly either, against the law of gravity. Not unlike flying many believe with these type experiments that a certain way can be found to bend the laws a little bit and fly like the Wright brothers.

[kbmkj]

If you removed the ball bearing from the end of the cam and secured a marker to it wouldn't that show you the exact timing you would need as you move the magnet by hand? It would draw the pattern of the motion you are using by hand on the spindle.

[fourx4ever]

Part of the problem is the cam assembly is not moving the sator up and down nearly as much as when you were operating the sator by hand. you are not moving the stator out of the way of the oncoming magnet enough and because of that you getting counter productive field interaction. You need more lift from your cam.

[localbroadcast]

the cam assembly is just not working correctly. you should connect the stator arm to a seperate motor to drive it up and down... just so u can get the cam timing correct so it accelerates without moving it by hand. then u can try to make a cam shape based on those results.

[johnypattygrobler]

Maybe a spring at the bottom of your cam-arm will force the magnet down rather than allowing it to come down on a no-magnetic resistance basis as it is now

[srunyon1]

ok so have you thought that your hand puts energy into the system. Your hand is moving the magnets. once you have it move itself you are fighting the friction and the force of the magnets where your hand was overcoming this by you feeling the resistance and pushing down. but what fun. keep it up.. it might work..

[dave695556]

Instead of using wire why dont you try bondo to make the cam out of you will have smother ramps and it will be easy to add and subtract. You have made great progress on it mine is alot different .

[dave695556]

have you tried to advance the timing or retard it may only take a few degrees on the cam you made

[salzahrah]

ok so basically the machine does not work..BUT would this require LESS ENERGY, to turn the certain mass a certain speed, THAN some other electric powered machine would need to do the same thing?

[zzytrewq]

Quote:  "Negative energy device"

Not a surprising outcome considering the laws of physics predicted it.

[maddogjm1]

you need to outsource the power of your movement, try puting a spring to pull the osccilater in the down direction and jsut use the roter to push it up

[PYTHAGORAS101]

try spinnig pyramids ,no joke .i heard aliens use them . They spin a few by hand , then they speed up ,this inturn powers a large rotar which powers the craft ..i would go with the tetrahedron (60 deg all 4 sides including base)

I think angles are the most important factor in magnetic motors

[chapthe]

no chance at all. think clearly. he power you need to move the magnets near each other equals the power the magnets bring (if you get the ideal moment and movement. It must fail in any way. no chance. no further experiments necessary. it never will work. ...but: have fun with your toy.

[GrahamB46]

GrahamB46

What a Doubting Thomas! Edison would never have created a working light bulb if he had listened to you!

[salzahrah]

unfortuantely what he is saying makes sense, your NEVER going to create more than what you put in...BUT you can however, develop certain motor/machines that require less and less energy up to a point where the energy you put in is equal to how much energy is outputted. its a limit basically as the difference between the input and output approaches zero

[masonmr2]

your axes are off you have to put 1 in front of the other and your rear atachment to boath arms longer think of it like a trane drive wheal and then do your timeing you are close

[tridg91607]

Rev.10.1a, Can you add more stators?? I know I'm coming into this a lil late and I haven't read all the comments but It would be great it this would work...

[canajaaf]

Non funziona, semplice.

[AxlOsborne]

build it?!? heheh - if you saw the failed magnet experiments debris in my 'study' you'd agree with my family that 'entropy, like charity, begins at home'!

no, it's better i leave practical experiments to people with real practical skill - and real workshops!!

however, i'm wondering if electronics can give us any clues - self-sustaining oscillations in circuits occur because of positive feedback - phase-shift & amplification play a part. does this trigger any ideas in the mech domain?

[AxlOsborne]

hi again

just had a thought about this test

i think maybe you're an electronics engineer? well, i believe the test shows the self-drive of the stator is a bootstrapping issue

i can't explain well, but it's like when you drive the stator manually it's energy is rel. to 'ground' but when its self-drive it's rel. to the 'circuit' - sort of mech. 'back-emf' develops

somehow the solution must 'decouple' the rotor energy from the stator energy

am i making any sense here?!? :o)

alex

[ZeroFossilFuel]

I am an electronics engineer and that makes perfect sense. Build it!

[daenumen]

@ZeroFossilFuel two things, the stator is off time, and secondly, perhaps using gravity in some synchronous way, to reduce the energy taken from the rotor to drive the stator.

idealy, you want the stator to drive the rotor, not vice versa as you currently have.

[AxlOsborne]

hi ZFF

i've been following your progress on the OSPMM really hoping that you get to the closed-loop goal! i want to add my encouragement to those of others here - go for it!

i remember reading an account on the net of one of the earliest 'modern-day' magnet motors - a reciprocating machine - if that account is true then why shouldn't you (ZFF) be able to get a rotational equivalent working?

alex

[ThePkat]

Next: I would see me running in to trouble because it will not be so easy to keep the thing going while you are drawing energy away from this. I think you will probably have to start looking for the right RPM which may be much higher then what you are producing now. You will need to reach a process called entrainment? Which best described; will be the perfect RPM of the Mass compared to the energy drained off by the alternator or any electrical engine.

Good luck!

[ThePkat]

If you can get a significant amount of energy produced this way it would already be a proof of your concept. Creating the perfect motion to keep this thing going is not relevant if you can prove more energy comes out then you put in.

[ThePkat]

I don't see this working in this way ever. In order to make a sustainable process you are going to need a perfect follow up of motions which I think cannot be obtained with these tools. I would try to turn this high level of energy you seem to be creating into electrical energy first so you know how much enery is really in this moving mass. Perhaps attach an altenator from a bike?

[greymatter69]

Well i think that the bottom of it is the problem;like you said the rails at the bottom need to be curvey;just like a modern roller coaster.

The rails broke at the bottom because they went striaght and then made a rather sharp turn.

Curvey is a smoother motion and can pick up more momentom on the next round because of its smooth curve.

And the wire that you are using cant handle the pressure.

[klicUK]

What a difference a fortnight makes. I went on holiday, came back and saw this. You've basically built the same machine I've been developing. The linkage is different but the idea of using a track to control the stator movement is identical. I wasn't going to post because I thought it was an idea worth patenting. I guess "Prior Art" puts paid to that. To say I'm feeling sick right now is an understatement. You've got a few issues still -- as do I. Good luck with the rest of your development.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Sorry to take the wind out of your sails. If it makes you feel any better, I'm abandoning the oscillating stator. See my reply to 11jstedm. Cheers!

[OrlandoFlyBoy]

Also, because it spun down faster with the magnet in place has nothing to do with if this will work. It is natures' way to make you give up too soon! :)

[blueberrymaster01]

@ZeroFossilFuel hi love your work great job.i was tinking about your track why dont you use small magnet for your track.i dont no if you understand what i mean you wood have no friction.

[sneakerset]

A practical application for this research might include an object that requires spin-stabilization(say an earth -orbiting satellite )using solar power to operate RF servo motors,with auto and manual control possible ,with the leanest amount of weight and yet highly efficient(micro-gravity).I'm wondering about using electromagnets in the design(for more thrust)Just some thoughts....Well doneZFF!

[11jstedm]

Its just the timing anyway, I suggest you put the felt tip from a felt tip marker on the end of the bottom lever, to mark so you can find the timing. That would work i think!

[ZeroFossilFuel]

I have studied the force vectors of this model more closely. Suffice it to say the reason it accelerates while hand operated is, even though the motion is small, the work in is still greater than the work out. Think of it as a simple incline passing by on rollers. Push vertically on it with a bearing and it rolls horizontally. The lower the angle the less distance you have to push to make it go sideways but you have to push down harder. That's all that's happening here.

[11jstedm]

zerofossilfuel you need like a v-gate design with one magnet on a cam. Always wanted to try that but im lazy

[ZeroFossilFuel]

No. You need to come up with something original yourself and build it.

[RBare2007]

Thanks very much for your efforts, I will be looking forward to more of your experiments, it's not really a failure because something is learned, my best wishes for your future experiments.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

It's all good.

[MrPlug]

what about a stiff spring to connect the arms together?

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Build one! Try it!

[RBare2007]

As you will see from the video I'm responding with, I'm already on one project ;-)

[neorules]

Thanks for the response ZFF. What about the wave near the center of the rotor and an upside down U assembly to hold the activator or stator magnet.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Now you're getting close.

[fapad]

try pyramids

it´s a power useful teory

[MDotUK]

Nice work... Can't wait to see MK2 and your new design. Havent checked all the comments but have you considered the Steorn Actuator patent which uses a material to block the magnetic field and i assume then creates the sine wave oscillation of the field.

Good luck will MK2 be soon ??

[neorules]

This might be worth a try to solve the problem. Look up suggestion01 and watch the youtube video.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

YouTube is still having problems allowing me to approve messages. Sorry. But to answer your question that no one else can see, suggestion01 was created specifically for me by that user. While the motion it creates is probably better, it must originate near the center of the rotor to achieve a mechanical advantage over the stator, not at the edge as shown.

[wutangpaul]

Hi, I'm really enjoying your video series. Have you tried Blender for your 3D modeling: blender dot org

[ZeroFossilFuel]

I'll look. Thanks!

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Also need some software titles for easy to use 3d modeling software.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

With animation

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Can someone point me to a good inexpensive supplier for new or surplus nylon gears, miniature drive belts, assortments, etc?

[snapfamily]

try nordex dot com. they seem to have a large supply.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Has anyone tried to create this or know of a video online showing a working unit?

geocities dot com/k_pullo/SMOT15_PM3-3.htm

[hoekf]

check your messages

[ZeroFossilFuel]

No messages here. Somewhere else?

[fapad]

do you done this project ?

or when will over...?

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Not done until I can show a working device that produces excess energy that can be use to do useful work. More to come.

[homersparents]

if magnetic field are squishy then how can you get more out of any arangment than what you put in. imagine you have gear made of soft cotton or soft rubber. would that gear ever poduce more enery than what you put in. still wondering whats next.

[magnetizerenergizer]

I think your correct on a greater window,should give the push pull effect a chance to break away from each other,I also think a larger diameter once in motion would reach higher RPM . Looking foward to your next video GOOD LUCK.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Correct on the first point. Not so on the 2nd. Size of the rotor will only give the mechanical advantage I need over the stator to make it work. Beyond a certain point there is little to be gained. RPM (i.e. HP) should be limited only to the strength with which the device is constructed before it accelerates to self destruction.

[homersparents]

your right think about the formulas used to figure out acceleration a=(Vf-fi)/t and the formula for Force F=MA. think about it if your device could work it would work on zero energy and it would exelerate to infinite speed and in zero time. that is not only imposible its imposible squared.

hope you are having fun and thats all that really matters here. so chear up ok its not over yet invest some time in discovering a better hydorgen geration device.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

And again, I never stated acceleration to infinite speed in zero time. Excess mechanical energy will accelerate against an inertia created by a given mass at a constant rate of acceleration. If the device accelerates on it's own then useful mechanical energy can be extracted. Put the ego away and pay attention.

[ibehold]

I would agree that the stator path should be sine not square wave - it would flow better. Also, if you turn the device on its side so that the stator is hanging down (like a pendulum) then that will equalise the effect of gravity on each direction of stator swing (only a minimal issue).

[ibehold]

Does your current device still use magnets at 90 degrees? It seems to me that the HD magnet is more complicated than that. I wonder if you should go back to a stator magnet that points one pole towards vertically mounted magnets on the rotor.

[wopwops0482]

How about a Sprain type arrangement, but with the mechanical armature only being required on the final magnet?

peswiki dot com/index.php/Directory:Paul_H­arry_Sprain_magnet_motor

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Check my favorites and the comment I posted there. Found exactly this here at YouTube. Still don't think there's enough excess energy created by the device to provide the pulse. I was up 'til 1am last night with a flip drawing. I think our tendency is to overcomplicate. Wait and see my next revision.

[picolini]

Very interesting! I'll be keeping an eye on this!

Keep it up, it looks really promising.

[vardan1899]

"All I see here is a flywheel decelerating. Where's the acceleration we need to see in order to extract useful energy? Not impressed."

Payback is Hell :D

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Yes my first attempt did not achieve the results I had hoped. I'm not ashamed of that. I have not given up. When it does work the acceleration will be spectacular and the surplus energy abundant.

Where is the energy coming from on your device to energize what looks like a coil? Can your device be attached to a generator to power itself?

[wopwops0482]

I'd contribute beer money to support your experiments. At least you're trying to do something and sharing your results, unlike everyone leaving comments.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Sam Adams Boston Lager. Thanks!

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Well, stay tuned everyone. Not done yet. Not by a long shot. After sleeping on it a bit (clinically proven to enhance the creative process) and digesting my results, I am brewing up another idea that builds on what I have learned and embodies bits and pieces of several other designs you'll see floating around. Cheers!

ZFF

[homersparents]

You know this test proves what the eficiantcy of this machine is. it shows its ABOUT half or that half the enery you put in will be used to do work.

i hope you find it one day...i dotn believe you will but i still hope you do!

have a great day.

[OmegaThe1]

Its acting as a break because it comes up just before or exactly at the time of rotor magnet coming near it, so instead of giving it a push, it repels it in the other direction.

The arm should come up just after the rotor magnet has passed the near point, so that it gets a further kick. Just like in a swing. Just guessing.

[syncplay]

If you take away the stator mechanism completely, the same flywheel would go even longer, but still come to a stop.

The idea won't work because it will always take more energy to move the stator magnet than the rotor will produce. In your earlier videos, the rotor was turning faster and easier because it wasn't under load.

[salzahrah]

what does it mean when u say something is "under load"?

[zzytrewq]

If you connect a battery to a light then the battery voltage and current can be determined "under a load". This is to simulate everyday conditions. Testing the voltage on a battery that is not driving a load is quite meaningless in some sense.

Similarly an electric motor free running will perform differently if it has to drive something "under load" such as a propeller. e.g. the current draw will increase

[myjizzureye]

Well when i bust a nut over the top of your mothers tits you could state her breasts are now "under my load", providing shes laying horizontal. If a spring is under load its compressed. If a motor us under load it means there is a force working against it.

[nabydom]

I dont know much about engines, but i think the more parts he has the less effective it is

I think that hard spring betwen 2 arms as a transmission, is better then a hard piece of metal. Hard piece of metal turns the bumping bewtwen the arms into heat and vibration. Spring can absorb kinetic bumping energy and give it back to the system

[nabydom]

the fact that your construction broke , means there is force pressing on that part but doing no benefitial work, the energy generated by force is probably disapated to heat and vibration.

[duruturk52]

It is a good attempt. I just wached all your videos. I am a physicist. Your problem is not only friction. If there was a gain, it would overcome to friction. My suggestion is contact with a proffesor from a university around you. Don't hesitate. They will help you.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Thank you. Some of your peers are less likely inclined to be at all complimentary. Constructive criticism is always welcome. Please feel free. ZFF

[hoekf]

keep going !

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Sir! Yes, Sir!

[sevaan1]

how about putting the stator magnet on the inside, attached to a vertical shaft which is connected by gears to another vertical shaft that is attached to the moving wheel? it would give a smoother wave.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

At a mechanical disadvantage to the rotor? I don't think so.

[SatsukiMikata]

Thanks for the statistics.

Do you think using the spin of the wheel to directly move the magnet degrades energy output? What do you think about optimizing the amount of energy used to move the magnet while storing as much energy from the spin as possible. (It's late, excuse my grammar) :P

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Obviously it adds friction. That's why I need as great a mechanical advantage as I can get from the actuator by increasing the diameter of the rotor magnet ass'y. Hopefully I can find someone with a high speed video cam to play back my manual operation in slow motion and see what really takes place that allows me to accelerate a mass with it.

[awaken69]

i think increasing the diameter will not help, as this also forces you to either put more magents in (>higher actuat. freq), or to increase the actuator deflection in the same ratio to keep the needed vertical speed in relation to the passing magnets. but let's see :-)

[ZeroFossilFuel]

You may be right but I will try anyway. Think about other models that might benefit from this increased mechanical advantage like the sloping magnet incline that only needs to be actuated once or twice per rev depending on the design. My HD magnet up and down is not the only way to move it into and out of position. My next cam ass'y will also be made as a yoke that straddles both sides of the bobbin with roller bearings.

[homersparents]

Why do you expect that because an object has very much mass that it should be hard to spin it on a very low friction device. You already proved that magnets don't transfer more they actual transfer less than 100% like 50 is close. Magnetic fields are squishy. Gears are more efficient even with the fiction. The only force you had to overcome was friction. Mass is not directly considered. Ff= μf*N.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

I never said a larger mass is harder to spin. I said it's harder to accelerate. I'm not after perpetual motion. I'm after acceleration, a surplus of mechanical energy, regardless of where it's being extracted from. HUGE difference.

[gabydewilde]

If the interaction results in a gain it would only work over a small range of speeds. I would expect it to slow down in less time above it's ideal rpm.