Niall Ferguson Blasts New York Times Columnist Paul Krugman

[knightschwartz]

mass immigration is destroying the west.

[vince33x]

@knightschwartz NO...reckless spending is destroying the West. U have to ID the right problem if ur gonna come up w/the right solution. If ur trying to come up w/the electric light, the problem is darkness not drought!

[keepaopenmind]

There are two separate issues. One is the deficit, which many Republicans focus on. But it has an easy solution, raise taxes, especially on the rich, back to where they used to be.

The other is the economy, which, I think, is far more important right now. People and corporations are not spending. That's the problem. So, the solution right now is for the gov't to spend, to aim for full employment. Which issue you focus on shows what's important to you. We're in this together, like it or not.

[y0ssar1an]

@MadPutz Personal debt is high because people are unemployed or have had their paychecks cut in half. The government can and should fill the demand gap by massively borrowing and spending (a la WWII). This actually leads to less debt in the long run. Slashing government spending and laying off thousands of public employees is the worst thing we could do. By whipping up deficit panic, Ferguson et al. aren't helping.

[Elmgren76]

@y0ssar1an You should learn some basic economics and not read Paul Krugman. Try Henry Hazlitt, Mises, Rothbard, Schiff or Hayek.

Stating that WW2 was kind of a economic stimulus is utterly absurd but thats the thing with Keynesian economics, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[y0ssar1an]

@Elmgren76 WWII wasn't an economic stimulus???!! The government massively borrowed and massively spent. Every American who needed a job was put to work (by the government, or government contractors) building bombers, ships, tanks, ammunition, and everything else necessary for the war effort. That was a MASSIVE economic stimulus. Debt and the deficit have never been higher.

Maybe you should stop sipping the Austrian-school Kool-Aid and start reading some post-1930's economists.

[Elmgren76]

@y0ssar1an Your comment is so silly it beggars belief that you are actually serious. Government borrowing money to hire people to build things that would ultimately be destroyed is a massive destruction of scarce resources. You should throw your Keynesian guidebook (written in 1936) in the trash and stop reading Krugman. I know he suggested spending money on defence against an imaginary alien invasion to boost the economy, an idea that you probably adhere to.

[y0ssar1an]

@Elmgren76 Nice dodge. You called the idea that WWII was an economic stimulus "utterly absurd". How do you feel about the world being round? Of course war is an incredibly wasteful form of stimulus. It works, but it doesn't have much lasting benefit. The New Deal worked as well, bringing unemployment from 25% to 9%, by hiring people to dig holes and fill them in. Solutions with lasting benefits: repair our infrastructure, weatherproof our homes, expand the Net to rural areas

[Elmgren76]

@y0ssar1an Economic growth is not a function of spending money. It's a function of savings and investment. War does not have any economic benefit what so ever, except for those working in the military industrial complex. Resources that could be used for products and services that benefit society are instead used to be destroyed and killing other human beings. You mention the New Deal as a major success so I'm getting the feeling you're just being ironic.

[y0ssar1an]

@Elmgren76 Where do people get the money to save and invest if not from a job? And if the government provides the job when the private sector is depressed, what difference does it make? This is a pretty obvious, no brainer, but I can see that you live in a libertarian alternate reality so none of this is going to sink in. This will be my last post.

[Elmgren76]

@y0ssar1an Where do you think the government gets the money from? The sky? It is taken from the private sector. Government takes 100 dollars from Mike and gives 100 dollars to Thomas to dig a ditch. Voila! A job has been created which everyone can see but the job that was destroyed is not seen. Classic Broken Window Fallacy that still persists among ignorant people. You state that WW2 was a stimulus, which is the biggest broken window fallacy of them all. I rest my case.

[y0ssar1an]

@Elmgren76 Do you understand how borrowing works? Mike has some extra money and wants a safe investment, so he buys US govt bonds. The US government uses the money to create a job for Thomas during a recession. When the recession is over, The US govt taxes Thomas and pays back Mike with a small amount of interest. WWII was the biggest borrowing and spending episode in US history.

[keepaopenmind]

@Elmgren76 Keynesian economics may not make any sense to you. But have you tried to understand Keynes? He was a genius way beyond the guys you mention, who make some sense some of the time. Maybe it'll take a depression for you to see what Keynes saw and tried to do something about. Let me ask you this. When, according to Keynes, should the government run a surplus?

[jhlending]

@y0ssar1an personal debt is high because of plastic helocs

[y0ssar1an]

Ferguson is precisely wrong. Employers aren't holding back from hiring because they're afraid of the long-term deficit picture. They're holding back from hiring because there isn't enough demand for their products/services. What sane company says to itself, in the face a demand frenzy, "Gee, should I hire people to meet this demand? I don't know. Let me check the latest federal revenue projections." The problem isn't the deficit, it's the demand gap.

[MadPutz]

@y0ssar1an Remember the other part of the graph, where debt reduces demand? This is not only in economic equations but you could think of it as wasted effort, effort without reward, as this adds up and more and more of people's potential is burdened by their collective debt and they have less energy/time to work and buy things.

[ErikBramsen]

@shotsky

If you don't betray your family, your king and your country for a woman like her, you are not a real man.

[machngunjoe]

Niall Ferguson can read the 'R's' in the phonebook and still sound interesting

[BUDx2]

Paul Krugman can eat shit and die

[Pemberdeer]

Why is it that it's always the left wing who descend into name calling first? And why do they combat logic with emotionalised "moral high ground"?

[miamistorm]

"Yes, that's right". Simply put, Peter's admission was simple, honest and clearly affirmed. A refreshingly honest admission from an Obama Administration official as to the 'real' reality of the domestic financial system. Each day brings some new fear, be it sovereign debt or the rumor of some large bank going under.

A deficit each and every year up to and including the year 2083. Doesn't sound much like a plan for success to me. Incredulously, it appears to be an intentional plan for failure.

[laudrup90]

Nial ferguson may well be a wonderful historian but hes another egomaniac who moved to america where such people who work in hyperbole are in abundance and actually develop a cult following.Also his take on history is put through a conservative bias which is no better tahn the left wing bias academia suffersfrom.

[maleki9]

Pretty sure Dr. Krugman started his NYT column in 2000 and won his Nobel prize in economics in 2008, so I really follow Turd Ferguson's argument that Dr. Krugman's reputation as an economist has gone down hill since starting his NYT column. It's brilliant analysis Turd.

[09geauxtigers]

We are done!!! 44.5 million on foodstamps, twice that many on welfare or social security, real unemployment at over 15%, 1/3 of America's children are fat and diabetic, and 1.5 million abortions anually. This is the end. I hope all you liberal democrats are happy. You have successfully ruined the greatest country in the world. Freedom has been flushed down the drain. I told my 9 and 11 year old sons today that they will soon have no country. How's that hope and change going???

[phantomsuccour]

@09geauxtigers you are an idiot, America went through much worse, the depression, if you knew what people went through then, you would understand how crazy you sound. This was caused by the Republicans passing a 2 trillion dollar tax cut that wasn't paid for 2 trillion dollar wars that weren't paid for the deregulation of the wall street. Anyway, things will get better. But you need to stop being a whiny chicken little. You aren;t the first to see tough times and you won't be the last.

[09geauxtigers]

@phantomsuccour You are wrong dumbass. This economic crisis was created by the subprimed mortgage debacle that Clinton and the dumbasscrats pushed through in the 90s. There is a new book out that explains the whole thing. Its called "Reckless Endangerment" written by a NY Times reporter that explains the entire thing. It was the democrats with Freddie and Fanny that destroyed the housing market and sent the economy into crisis. However, I do hold Bush responsible for not pursuing this issue.

[laudrup90]

@09geauxtigers .Youre an idiot.This was passed when congress was in the hold of republicans you absolute retard.You simpe minded republicrats make me sick.

[09geauxtigers]

@laudrup90 Does anyone know what happened to all of the stimulis money Obama passed in early '09? I have not seen one work project and I've travelled all over the country in the past 2 1/2 years. Just wondering where the money went!!!!! I did hear that Obama is expected to raise over 1 Billion dollars this year and next. Uhm. Seems suspect to me. But I'm just too simple to understand the mastery of Obama's mind. Besides he's a messiah. He is the most gifted human being to ever walk the earth.

[MrCantstandliberals]

@laudrup90 no it wasnt democrats had the house senate and presidency you fuckin loser

[Meeks861]

@09geauxtigers To get a nice clear picture of how the bubble was created and hence th reccession I would heavily suggest that you watch the film "Inside Job". American Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin, both are subservient to the will of powerful lobbyists who have a strong grip on many of the policies and regulations that are created and acted upon. Instead of pointing the finger at this or that party, we need to have a rational discussion about the true causal factors.

[baronessvondengler]

I love the way he says "we"--isn't he British?

[MrSpectator2009]

@baronessvondengler yes you are right, but he speaks with a conviction for America, so 'we' is entirely appropriate. I am not an American. But I understand where he is coming from

[ryanjoy87]

Barack Obama tried to reform health care and it didn't work? Most of the cost cutting measures either haven't gone into effect or will not start producing savings for the next ten years. It is a gradual process. And, by the way, Niall Furguson, the "straw man" of austerity measures were in last years budget agreement, and are being demanded by Republicans in exchange for raising the debt ceiling. I long for the days when there were smart conservatives.

[mpc91]

@ryanjoy87 - You've brought the straw man right back out. Nobody was demanding that we balance the budget this year, or even next. We are spending about 4 trillion this year, and bringing in about 2 trillion this year. No one was calling for 2 trillion in cuts this year.

As for Obama's "cost cutting" measures in Health Care, they're just absolutely fictional. The CBO says so, and anyone who understands supply and demand would know this to be the case.

[ryanjoy87]

@mpc91 I didn't say that anyone was trying to balance the budget in a year or two, but to start cutting in the midst of a recession is just stupid. That's what Hoover tried to do and that's what Republicans are doing now. For someone who supposedly understands the power of expectations, Ferguson sure doesn't show a lot of sympathy for the idea that people who expect their health care benefits to be cut won't start spending enough to jumpstart an economy.

[mpc91]

@ryanjoy87 - But cutting spending in the midst of a recession is exactly what needs to be done. It's stimulus that doesn't work. It's artificial demand that makes things worse.

Hoover didn't cut spending. He increased it. Dramatically. It didn't work. Roosevelt increased spending, that made it worse. The depression last 11 years, or about 9 years longer than it would have had the government done nothing. Harding did nothing in 1921, and a downturn much worse than 1929 self-corrected.

[ryanjoy87]

@mpc91 Why is gov't spending artificial. If the government wanted to pay me, I'd happily accept. If the WPA had given me a job, would I be earning artificial wages to spend on artificial goods and services. Cutting social programs for the disadvantaged is like raising taxes on the rich except worse because the rich will probably save it whereas the poor will have to spend it. Seems pretty simple to me. It's not easy to gather the political capital to do it, but it's the right thing to do.

[mpc91]

@ryanjoy87 - Why is government spending artificial? Because it's not backed up by anything of real value. You just printing money doesn't equal the creation of wealth.

If you had taken a job with the WPA, doing things the market did not demand, you are added no real value, and your labor is demanded elsewhere. Unless you think everyone has everything they could ever want. It's not the right thing to do, because it misdirects the markets. Markets signal where demand is, unless gov't interferes.

[ryanjoy87]

I have no idea what you mean when you say government spending isn't backed up by real value. I mean, if you believe in the concept of fiat money (which most of the world seems to) then US dollars are worth something. Plus, most federal spending is borrowed anyways, not printed. I just don't get this abiding faith in markets. After all, they did eat up CDOs, which as we know, didn't work out too well. Market failure exists. Pretty much any economists knows that

[mpc91]

@ryanjoy87 - Pretty much any economist knows that, really? Which economist knows that, because I can give you quite a list of Nobel laureates who disagree. Markets did not "eat up CDO's", government did. The Fed is a free market institution. Market failures are caused by government intervention.

Look up Bastiat's Broken Window fallacy. You place much value on what is seen, and none on the opportunity cost, nothing on what is not seen.

[ryanjoy87]

@mpc91 Oh jeez you are an austrian. Well, in that case, go move to Pakistan or Somalia: Wonderful free-market economies there.

[mpc91]

@ryanjoy87 - Once again, a lefty who wants to criticize the free market, who doesn't actually know what a free market is. Neither Somalia, nor Pakistan have free market economies. A limited government to prevent fraud, protect contracts, protect property rights, etc.

[mpc91]

@ryanjoy87 - As for social programs being the right thing to do, they have broken up families, and created a class of people dependent on government for their survival.

These people who could otherwise be adding to the wealth of the nation by making themselves wealthy, are instead making the nation poor by staying where they are.

That's not the right thing to do at all.

I'm not against helping the poor at all. But the free market does it much better than government ever could.

[ryanjoy87]

@mpc91 I'm going to go ahead and say that social security, medicare and medicaid (the salient fiscal issues) don't usually divide families. How does providing a minimum of care for our sick, our poor and our elderly in any was spoil them? To believe otherwise betrays a lack of social conscience. What is a sick, old man supposed to do in your perfect libertarian world? Go back to work? Markets create externalities that disproportionately hurt the disadvantaged. They aren't inherently ethical.

[mpc91]

@ryanjoy87 - You can say what you want. But the welfare state has done a great deal to break up families, providing financial incentive for single parent families. It corresponds.

Your views are morally bankrupt. All of those things are provided better by the voluntary market than by the current coercive one. The sick old man was at one point a healthy young man, and would be in far better shape had not a distant government been taking half his money for for 50 years.

[ryanjoy87]

@mpc91 Correlation does not equal causation my good sir. There are plenty of other reasons for an increased divorce rate than a measly welfare check. You have a very pessimistic view of humanity if you believe that garbage.

And if you don't realize that the market for CDO's was facilitated and driven by private investment, then I've definitely been wasting my time. All of those institutions failed because they were heavily over-leveraged in the derivatives that were, surprise, unregulated.

[mpc91]

@ryanjoy87 True, correlation does not equal causation. But the evidence is clear. When you incentivize something, you cannot be surprised when it comes to pass. When the state takes the role of provider, this is always the result. It goes across. If a single parent gets more than a married one, the incentive is clear.

You have a very pessimistic view of humanity if you think people cannot survive without theft through government intermediary.

[Ethan129]

Krugman's a blabbering idiot. How this guy is considered to be a top economist is beyond comprehension.

[mvanmeter14]

@hexcane uhhhm the whole idea of ss was to pay out only if you lived above the average life expectancy, which is why it is running deficits, its not an entitlement.

Also no one "dodges" taxes, that ridiculous, the US is probably the best of any country at collecting taxes. The government attempts to create a tax code that maximizes revenues and economic growth at the same time. They fail miserably at doing so, which is why I favor no income tax, but nothing illegal is being done.

[medurk35]

@mvanmeter14

I was employed for 40 years until I experienced a crippling accident. Thank god for SSI. Because I am single the amount of taxes that I paid into SS was incredible.

SS and SSI are good programs and we would have ample monies if the political morons (past, present and future) kept there hands out of the till.

[mpc91]

@medurk35 - Social Security is a horrible program.

If you had kept your payroll taxes, and invested them on your own (without Krugman's housing bubble), you would have been better off.

But the math doesn't work for Social Security in the future. There won't be enough people paying in as the population ages, and the birth rate decreases.

Social Security is a horrible program that creates dependency on government where none ought exist.

[elsblaugranas]

Ferguson is such an elitist t**t...his knowledge of economics is shockingly superficial. I agree with Brendos444 that Krugman won the argument hands down. This is the kind of logic expected from a Tory-loving imperialist. I always thought he was a historian (and a bad one for that, for he's no match to economic historians like Barry Eichengreen for example), not an economist..stick to falsifying history Niall..take it from an economist: economics ain't your forte :).

[mpc91]

@elsblaugranas - Ferguson is an elitist... and Krugman is not?

Krugman feels that government overlords know better than you do what you want.

Ferguson feels that individuals know best what they want.

One of those sounds elitist to me. One does not.

[TheVideoRepo]

Niall Ferguson is a pillock. Universal healthcare would save the US economy hundreds of billions.

[mpc91]

@TheVideoRepo - Really? We won't need to pay for healthcare anymore. Doctors will work for free?

Nothing is free. Shifting who pays is a sure way to increase the cost of healthcare. If you think someone else is paying, you will get more than you need.

Adding government bureaucracy to healthcare is the surest way to increase the costs and decrease the quality of healthcare. Only the voluntary free market can reduce costs AND raise quality.

[panhandlepatriots]

@hexcane The elites are the progressive politicians and the labor unions that are in business with GE, GM, AGI, AARP that are screwing people like you, they are the ones that avoid paying the taxes that the rest of us have to pay. Yes, they are rich and elitists, and Obama knows it and he is taking full advantage of it. GE made over 14 Bil in profits last year and paid 0 taxes, Jeffrey Immelt (GE's CEO) and Obama are really tight and so is labor union Trumpka and SEIU labor bosses .....

[OceansideRoberts]

Please run for President PLEEEAAAASSEEEEE!!!!

[qwertypoiu4321]

HOOVER DID WHAT FDR WENT ON TO DO!!! Read Rothbard's "America's Great Depression"!!!

[Ramshobraja]

Raise the retirement age, cut defense spending by 20%. Not fucking hard. But no one has the balls to do it because of political expediency.

[garytedder]

Niall Ferguson is an awesome brilliant Professor who speaks with Words of Power and Common Sense! & He has Brass Balls to stand up to the Ignorant OR Criminally Insane News People that cover for President B. O. & Crew.

[valeriereified]

@garytedder I can refute that assertion with one word: Chimerica.

[shotsky94]

@garytedder Dont tell me you support this neocon asshat

[GluttonForSex]

@shotsky94 Conservatives don't typically dump their white wives for Somali black women. :-/

[makeithappen42zx]

@garytedder I agree that Ferguson is brilliant. He probably understands the financial system better than anyone, but the guy has no solution to the current unemployment problem. As Keynes said in response to people like him "in the long-term we are all dead" ... this means of course the market will correct itself in the long-term, but how long must we wait? By then, generations of people will miss the opportunity to go to college, and there will be permanent scars from unemployment.

[OneBigRetard]

This moderator is an annoying tard.

[thesparitan]

Corporations worrying about the long term, is furguson insane?

Yes he is.

[vorrifmn]

I love krugman & ferguson they work well against each other!

[DouglasEdward84]

This fued is getting intense it seems like they take shots at one another every time they are in a public forum.

[arrandiegostewart]

he sounds like a young Jeremy Clarkson

[Seano71]

@arrandiegostewart clarkson is borderline retarded and inbred

[bonfirejovi]

even stiglitz is laughing at krugman

[brendos444]

@bonfirejovi Stiglitz is not laughing at krugman, he's laughing at Ferguson.

Ferguson so clearly lost his argument with Krugman. He said that interest rates would rise sharply b/c of stimulus. They're still hovering around zero. He said inflation would rise. We looking at moderate inflation, if not deflation. That was his argument and the facts have confirmed Krugman right. Ferguson should really shut up now.

[medurk35]

@brendos444 Evidently, you must have an excellent income and the price of gasoline ($4.50 gal.) and food (which has doubled in the last year) are non-issues for you.

It is positively ludicrous to state inflation is moderate and downright moronic to even mention the word "deflation." Obviously, there is a great disparity in your income level and the rest of the middle class.

[medurk35]

@brendos444 Evidently, you must have an excellent income and the price of gasoline ($4.50 gal.) and food (which has doubled in the last year) are non-issues for you.

It is positively ludicrous to state inflation is moderate and downright moronic to even mention the word "deflation." Obviously, there is a great disparity in your income level and the rest of the middle class.

medurk@yahoo.com

[vince33x]

@bonfirejovi Krugman and Stiglitz, Two Left-Wing, Jew morons!

[misterMagoo4]

where can i find a full transcript of this debate?

[bill1882]

At The Daily Beast website I found a video of what appears to be the entire discussion . Its title is "And Here's How To Get Out Of It" [I tried posting a link to it here, but You Tube won't accept it]. You can find this video by going to The Daily Beast website, clicking on the "Reboot America" link, then clicking on "watch any panels," and then scrolling through the "Latest Videos" until you reach the one titled, "And here's how to get out of it." Hope this helps!

[MrBloody32]

@bill1882 I love you!!!!!

[bbbbmer]

The Daily Beast is nothing but a corporatist rag and an apologist for Wall Street ... and Tina is just a friggin whore...