This would be a case of rapid evolution where only some survive because of a mutation.
There are multiple factors involved for creating a distinct species, but my example was just focused on one trait.
This could happen to many traits at the same time and when the genetic difference between the new and the original species get to big, they wont be able to interbreed and that is what we call speciation.
germany is a good and beautiful country in my opinion too, but population of germany start to decrease, because ur nation start to lose the soul,(in evolution there is no prove of soul-because we cant see it)the% of increase of population there is -1% that mean ur nation die
But it has nothing to do with a soul, but has other observable factors, such as longer education, smaler families, birth control, and so on.
And I highly oubt that we will cease to exist within the next million of years.
You know there will always be people who want children and if the political situation changes so that we get better funded day care centres, better schools, less working hours and so on, the birth rate might increase again.
If you mean by soul, that the nation is alive, mentaly sane, happy, intelligent and human, then we have a soul and a very strong one.
I am sorry for bad circumstances in your country, but there are many reasons why the birth rate drops and this is perfectly normal in a post-industrial country.
i spoke with christian and i convince him but he wont accept, and talk to many christian, (and there was a guy dead 2days ago i lose him he dead christian)
I will try to follow your instructions. But the point I was trying to get at is that it needs evidence to convince me, not a good feeling or the fear of some eternal punishment.
ok, why all this? why US and all world spend all this money on discovering space? the money they spend on space make all world very richdid u ask ur self why?
because the quran say the judgment day will be on earth, so ur country try to escape by going out of earth and they will not do it....
O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction. (55-33) if u dont believe many other believe ... and that ayah is like a challange for human to go out of his authorities
i dont remmber the law of gravity, law of quantium, and Friction law, there r many force control it but as i remmber the object must has vilocity more than 11km/sec.
im not here to prove these laws..... anyway i want to ask u something to do..
go to nearest mosq from u and ask the well educated one about islam and try to chose clever one and then tell me what happen with u, what u ask and what he answer
You claimed it was impossible to send humans into space, eventhough you can see the international space station with your own eyes (I have once through a telescope).
I have been talking to muslims, not to preachers, but educated believers.
It always comes down to the same argument.
"I know Allah exists because the quran says it.
The Quran is right because it comes from Allah. I know it comes from Allah because the Quran says so."
The Quran is a book like the Bible and other "holy" scriptures
this is our problem, that muslims dont know islam, i believe that allah exist as newton believe that there was a force behind the fallen of apply on the ground
but i have somethink, if evolution is correct we will see the same organism in the same place, like all the creations in lands will be like sheeps, and all creation in sea will be fish(no sharks)
If there were completely identical conditions evolution would happen much much much sloweras natural selection would only rule out one set of mutations.
On earth however we have so many different sets of environment and sometimes it changes drastically, so evolution happens faster.
faster??? i hope u chose something else other than evolution, christian will be good for u, at least they have something good to believe as long u will not consider islam as an option....
any way search in facebook ( rafat alhalaki) and add me
since that time did u hear any landing on moon????? and about physical law, to leave the earth gravity by human it take so much energy and speed, that make it impossible,
it was not landing, and this indian moon impact probe, did it return??????
and if there r any man on it may be it will be impossible, because man need a place to live, and that will increase the size of satillete, and that will increase effect of gravity on rocket...because of the increase of energy to break the gravity.. this is for one man, do u think what about 3,
Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning
Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.
So, which one is it? Is the day of Allah equal to 1,000 earth years or 50,000 earth years?
this not a good question to ask, now science prove that days in other planets r different from earth, lets say day on moon equal to 1 month compering with earth, and day on nepton equal to 264years, so all is right, because its a different places
16:67 And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.
No:
2:219 Strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin.
that prove quran is scientific when dealing with Addiction, it start with its not good then dont deal with me if u r drunk and then u should stop drinking, then u will be punich if u dont stop it.... so see how steps it take to order ppl to quit alcohol, scientific
i gave u this example to show that quran is scientific but u dont want to believe or at least understand, u ask me and i answer u, it was ur question, the ayahs in quran came in this ordar as u see....
did u ask Einstein,from where he get this: E= mc2????
quran mentiened that stars r so big( Nay, I swear by the places of the stars - (75) And lo! that verily is a tremendous oath, if ye but knew) - (56-75,76) u ignor this ayahs and there is many and according to quran human cant leave earth, so human did not reach moon
no it was just fake movie, it was the cald war and the US has to win, so they Fabricated this movie, human cant leave earth, that mean if u on its orbites still on earth.... and i dont make connection i just said quran Mentioned the size of stars
i can prove it for u if u want, if u come to the middle east try to pass by me... i will invite u to middle east dish and to see petra(google it, its amazing) and then we will have a talk,
i told u athiesm was found by the ppl in earopa in 1700-1900 as a reflex for church and its stupidity, and the matter of deny the god, so ppl of that time deny god and end that Discussion of the authorities of church on ppl, so when i speak about religion, u imagin the church and its ppl, but i dont like the way they think, try to see another way of thinking, i see urs
I am not "imitating" the people back in time, I am also not denying god, I am just asking for evidence and everything I heve seen by now is everything but certainly NOT convincing!
if there is a hard evidence for the presence of gad like we can see him, so that mean we dont have the right to chose, but allah sent messengers for us to follow them and deserve the heaven
....if some one told u that there is an exam after 2 months will u study for it?
and i think u imagin me like a cave man because im a muslim!!!!!!
i dont have to see him to belive in him, i just read what he send to me, in the Opposite u believe in stones(Fossils ) and u make all ur thoughts about it
i believe in reading, and u believe in fossils, do u think fossils is a direct evidance for ur theory, do u think there is a life in mars???? or any where out of earth???? it was as a fact in the 1960s like what u speak to me right now, all ur theory is just like boy game to make ppl busy and u follow......
no i dont believe in everything i read..but i give every information time to be proven or not, i put my holy book on a test many time but i dont find mistake,instead i found it so perfect,and ur nation known with scientific stupid idea like life in mars ppl was so confidance about it ,and there was (sufficient evidance) then what?? no life there....and about criticism, there is a different between it and insulting, prove that religion is false and i promise i will follow u, but not insulting
wrong similarity, this is not the way on my holy book, its amazing in the way u think its magic, just try to read, u will find many actions written 1400 years ago happen now
and about life in mars hahahah, this is impossible because its -60C so its not right.... try to read about mars
if u want to be scientific u should know that quran take 23years until all the book was collect as its now, so if u want to know what the meaning of any word in quran u should the history and what happen for this word to be said,
like how to treat jews, at that time muslims and jews were partnar, but jews betrayal muslims,even they have agreement, so they ask allah about the judgment for them, so allah send some chapers about them, we dont hate jew but we should be careful
i dont want to enter this thing about proven ur theory, because its like ur religion, all i say that we all will die and if there is something after death it will be a big problem for u.... and consider it my theory and its proven that we all die and for sure there will be life after death, because like the life start once could happen again
for the information avialble its ok or we can accept it but after 100years this information may be will be wrong, like ppl thing that earth is flat and how thing its round will be stupid but now guess what? its round, for our informations its ok but after 100years what would happen
so when i love a girl i will tell her that my brain loves u.... and if she tell me that she loves me from all her heart i will be angry because heart is just a pump!!!!!
did u love any one before (not have sex)
so can we describe feeling? can we feel emotions? no matter why athiest call themself animals(no Offense ) i send u a song
To say that loves comes from your heart is a metaphor and expresses your feelings, it is not really that way.
Yes I have loved and I still do.
And yes some feelings have been described. For example happiness. There actually substances that cause you to feel happy. If you eat chocolate those substances will activate your brain and you feel better. It is as simple as this.
But really that does not mean that it is less beautiful or great, it is just explained naturally.
heart who take the responsability of love ... as u feel, and why want to make it diffeculte, u can see or feel emotions, if so why when i love some girl she dont feel what i feel for her....did u hear the song?
Yes I heard the song, but I don't speak the language, so I did not understand it.
Well, only because we can explain how they are produced it does not mean that emotions are "simple". They are still very complex as we have a very large number of emotions and feelings.
But only because they seem so wonderful does not mean that they have to come from a god or gods.
emotions r simple and u want to make it hard, this is the same way with god(there is only one god) u just want to make it as u want, when i say(me heart is broken) that mean my heart not me brain, the same way with god god is exist but u want to make it hard( let me see him) so let me see emotions
its far away from evolution, love against logic and against sciense
true love make rich girl marry poor guy
which is against logic and heal DISEASE WHERE sciense stop, we cant touch love but we can feel it, all the world built on love, i see u have no emotion, wish u find it soon, islam actully built on love
this is the idea, and this is the philosophy that the most important things we cant feel it but we can feel it effect on us, we cant see god but we can see his effect on us, i hope u could understand, evolution has no rational and natural explanation, it just dreams and wishes, like vampire and i told u the history of evoultion i think,
because evolution is not measurable, and dont tell me fossiles, fossiles say that something was there and something was there and evolution ppl said this thing change to that thing, so we can measure it, it just theory, u ppl say its proven as a fact, for me i see many gaps
and about those ayah, do u know who those ayahs speak about? and what happen at that time so quran say these words.... it was at time of war, and there was a special reason
it was amazing, i went to macca, there is some thing special in macca that make u want to go there, u will feel holyness
and for u to know not everone know about islam, to know islam u must read history, non-believers at that time kill there dauther and kill , steal, and worship a stone, and they fight muslims, so in return u have the right to fight back, so this ayah give premission for muslim to fight back, it was not allow to fight before,
"and they fight muslims, so in return u have the right to fight back"
You have every right to defend yourself, but ONLY defense (you know my position: I am absolutely against any preemptive strike against the middle east by the US and other forces).
I want to make clear, that I do accept your religion and faith.
All I want is, that when you claim allah definetely exists, you have to provide proof.
before this ayah at time of prophet mohammad it was not allowed to fight back even if they kill muslim, for u to understand if muslim see nonbeliever kill his muslim brother he did not have the right to defend him, so this ayah gave them premission, i will answer the question about exist of allah by his done
u should believe in him without seen him, this is the test, u believe in Dinosaur even u didnot saw them !!!!
nonbeliever did not give muslim premission to speak or spreading there ideas, and if there was a permission for self defense they will call islam as a terorrist religion at that time, as they speak about islam now, and if u read the ayah it give the reason why to fight nonbeliever, u read kill but why kill....
and this universe is not enough for u to believe? car should have creator and this universe came alone???????
"car should have creator and this universe came alone? "
To compare a car and the universe is the first mistake.
A car is built, yes, but the universe could have come about without such a creator.
And if you look at a car, we can go to the creator.
We can see him, touch him, hear him, smell him and taste him.
We can not do this with the "creator" of the universe, so you would have to prove the creator in order to prove that it was created, not the other way around.
And if you look at a car, we can go to the creator...this is the prove, if we look to the universe sure there is a creator.
and im sure i cant see him or feel him because he is so great when i see the earth and sun and i will not speak about the galaxy, so i look for him and i read quran and i found that quran represent him so i follow,
"and im sure i cant see him or feel him because he is so great when i see the earth and sun and i will not speak about the galaxy, so i look for him and i read quran and i found that quran represent him so i follow,"
If you can not sense or measure your god, you take his existence on faith.
and because u know athiesm u say so, but if u dont know athiesm u will say athiests r bad, and like what u did about sharia, u prove that u know nothing about islam, and u just folow media
"and because u know athiesm u say so, but if u dont know athiesm u will say athiests r bad, and like what u did about sharia, u prove that u know nothing about islam, and u just folow media"
So following your logic you don't know nothing about atheism, because you think it is "bad".
I don't think, that evry muslim is "bad".
I think, that many interpretations of the quran can inspire a person to do bad things.
My point is, that there is no proof, that the quran is true.
I suggest you read Marc Hauser's "Moral Minds: How Nature Designed our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong". In the book, hypothetical moral dilemmas are presented to a group of people from various different religions and atheists. The conclusion was that there was no significant statistical difference between religious believers and atheists in their answers to these dilemmas.
Well, of course you are right for your own distorted views of morality. But that's not saying much. The most atheist societies in the world are also the most healthiest and wealthiest, while the most religious ones are still living in stone age.
healthiest and wealthiest.... u say that u steal arab oil is wealthiest... and all dieses which came from ur athiest countries is healthiest.... dont forget pig flu (its from ur nations) we dont eat pigs
Wikipedia: Due to the legal framework of the country, which does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited. Indeed, the Government enforces a strict and conservative version of Sunni Islam. Muslims who do not follow the official interpretation, can face severe repercussions at the hands of Mutawwa'in (religious police).
You don't get pig flu from eating pork. Besides it comes from Mexico which is anything but atheist country. Rest of your reply didn't make much sense.
i like u man, because u ask for evidance, ever day u show me things that make me respect u, and about evidance u leave ur Parents when u r 18, u sister have a boy friend(have sex without marrige) and u accept it, and there r many example
We ARE animals. Get a clue.
ndrthrdr1 1 month ago
its good to see that there are some people how still actually use their brain, i loved your video, keep posting!
bo0o90 1 year ago
Learn how to spell, Mohammedan Mongoloid.
AnarchistandAtheist 2 years ago
This would be a case of rapid evolution where only some survive because of a mutation.
There are multiple factors involved for creating a distinct species, but my example was just focused on one trait.
This could happen to many traits at the same time and when the genetic difference between the new and the original species get to big, they wont be able to interbreed and that is what we call speciation.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
ok, i will take ur example as an evidance, u speak about rabbits, so let us speak about bacteria, it has small life period,
could u change one species to another in 50years if we know that bacteria has 20mins life period
raafat1999 2 years ago
Yes.
It happened with dragonflies for example.
There are many observed instances of speciation.
I would recommend talkorigins(dot) org
Flipsen89 2 years ago
its abig site, but do u thinkits true???
u ppl spend a lot of money in issue that has no use, so with some obsirvation u bulit all ur life, like ppl from mars!!!!
at least christianity has reasons
raafat1999 2 years ago
The site is bigm but you could look for "observed speciation".
They don't make just wild claims, they are scientifically peer reviewd and follow stric scientific standards.
The knowledge about how life evolved can help very much.
New vaccines, healing of cancer, AIDS and much more.
Very much in medicine is based on the knowledge we have from evolution.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i like u americains how u make it easy and useful, what the relation between AIDS and evolution??? or cancer
both of them related to mutation, not with evolution
raafat1999 2 years ago
Well, as you should know I am not an american, but anyway.
Mutations are a part of evolution, but AIDS is caused by a virus, not a direct mutation in humans.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
so u want to stay on evolution(theory!) as long u dont see the god....
germany is a great working soulless country, has a great scientific society,with hard brains
why we on earth???
raafat1999 2 years ago
I stick with evolution as long as the evidence tells me so.
Germany is not soulless.
In my oppinion it is a beautiful country with many faces and a great mentality.
Of course we have idiots, but the percentage is the same as in every other country.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
germany is a good and beautiful country in my opinion too, but population of germany start to decrease, because ur nation start to lose the soul,(in evolution there is no prove of soul-because we cant see it)the% of increase of population there is -1% that mean ur nation die
raafat1999 2 years ago
Yes I have heard about this.
But it has nothing to do with a soul, but has other observable factors, such as longer education, smaler families, birth control, and so on.
And I highly oubt that we will cease to exist within the next million of years.
You know there will always be people who want children and if the political situation changes so that we get better funded day care centres, better schools, less working hours and so on, the birth rate might increase again.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i know ppl here work 16hours a day but they have many children, and they have no money!!!!
if u want ur nation to stay alive they should find there souls
raafat1999 2 years ago
My nation will stay alive.
If you mean by soul, that the nation is alive, mentaly sane, happy, intelligent and human, then we have a soul and a very strong one.
I am sorry for bad circumstances in your country, but there are many reasons why the birth rate drops and this is perfectly normal in a post-industrial country.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
yes thats it
my dear friend, i want to ask u something and i want u to try it
say (LA ELAHA ELLA ALLAH)
u will not lose anything
before u go to sleep and after u wake up
say those words, and im sure u will find ur soul, try it for week and u will feel different.....try it
raafat1999 2 years ago
Does that mean: There is no god, but Allah?
Imagine this, if a christian tells you to accept his god, would you do it just for a try? Could you be honest to yourself?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i spoke with christian and i convince him but he wont accept, and talk to many christian, (and there was a guy dead 2days ago i lose him he dead christian)
i will accept any if what u say is the true
i tell u try it as long there is nothing to lose
raafat1999 2 years ago
There is something to lose.
I don't want to live a lie and I have to be honest with myself.
I can not sincerely believe something when there is no evidence to support it.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
lie!!!
i told u it just as test, say the words believe on it or not, just say it
and there r many evidance just it take a wise eyes to see, try those words first then we will go to next thing(before u sleep, and after u wake up)
just try...
raafat1999 2 years ago
O.K. I said them. La Elaha Ella Allah.
I will try to follow your instructions. But the point I was trying to get at is that it needs evidence to convince me, not a good feeling or the fear of some eternal punishment.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
if there is alife after death, that will make me happy to know that u said words could save u from hell, its just like present for a friend
and to convince u evoultion found to answer how we came to earth? but it cant answer why we on earth and why we die?
raafat1999 2 years ago
But what if those words sent me to hell?
It actually does answer why we die and it tells us why there is so much diversity on this planet.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
will not send u to hell, i sent u something on facebook, see it
what happen with ur exams?
raafat1999 2 years ago
And when the rocket gets heavier we build a more efficient engine........
How about the international space station?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
they send it piece by piece,
and as i see u dont know the gravity law...
there is many things u dont know, im good in physics, even im nutritionist
(note: thank u, i start to like u, this period of time im so lonely no friends nothing..)
raafat1999 2 years ago
raafat1999, I really like you!
I enjoy having conversations with you.
But we have to be reasonable!
So we managed to get space stations in the orbit of the earth. There have been probes that visited Mars and other planets.
The gravitational well of the earth is not strong enough that we can't escape it with space shuttles.
A Space shuttle is capable of doing so and they have done so several times.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
ok, why all this? why US and all world spend all this money on discovering space? the money they spend on space make all world very richdid u ask ur self why?
because the quran say the judgment day will be on earth, so ur country try to escape by going out of earth and they will not do it....
raafat1999 2 years ago
No actually the money is spent to explore space in order to understand the universe and its effects on us.
This information could be very important in the future.
I do not believe that there will be a judgment day, so I have no reason to "escape" from earth.
And surely your god, if he exists, would be powerful enough to get people on any planet.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction. (55-33) if u dont believe many other believe ... and that ayah is like a challange for human to go out of his authorities
raafat1999 2 years ago
and if the money that been spent on space they speant it on poor ppl like africa u will not see any pain
raafat1999 2 years ago
"u will not see any pain "
Well, the money might have helped, but it certainly would not have made it all go away.
But anyway, let us make a calculation as you are good in physics:
How much throttle does a rocket need to transport a ten kilo object into space?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
hahaha now we speak in physics...ok
i dont remmber the law of gravity, law of quantium, and Friction law, there r many force control it but as i remmber the object must has vilocity more than 11km/sec.
im not here to prove these laws..... anyway i want to ask u something to do..
go to nearest mosq from u and ask the well educated one about islam and try to chose clever one and then tell me what happen with u, what u ask and what he answer
raafat1999 2 years ago
You claimed it was impossible to send humans into space, eventhough you can see the international space station with your own eyes (I have once through a telescope).
I have been talking to muslims, not to preachers, but educated believers.
It always comes down to the same argument.
"I know Allah exists because the quran says it.
The Quran is right because it comes from Allah. I know it comes from Allah because the Quran says so."
The Quran is a book like the Bible and other "holy" scriptures
Flipsen89 2 years ago
so there r not very good muslims
this is our problem, that muslims dont know islam, i believe that allah exist as newton believe that there was a force behind the fallen of apply on the ground
raafat1999 2 years ago
But Newton could prove this force.
It is demonstrable and is natural.
How can you demonstrate Allah?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
how could newton prove his theory???
but dont u hear the scientific crash in 1905??? and how Einstein prove the law of gravity is wrong?
and quran is the book where u can prove that allah exist, quran is just the way...
raafat1999 2 years ago
Einstein's theory of General Relativity is a continuation or extension of Newton's law of gravity.
I can demonstrate gravity to you:
Take a book.
Hold it up. Now let it go......
Gravity!
How does the quran prove god exists?
Because he says it?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
Take a book....? hahaha good clever
How does the quran prove god exists?
read the book, plz plz plz
i know im not good in english, if im good i will translate many things for u?
simple question why u in earth? and why we will die?
raafat1999 2 years ago
Why I am on this planet?
Because I was born by my parents.
Why we die?
Biology, Genes cause aging.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
so...
do u know what this will lead???
if i believe in this idea what prevent me from steal, rap, and killing and leave all moral things, charity and many things
plz answer
raafat1999 2 years ago
Why did you delete my post on your channel?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
hi my friend, i miss u man
i dont delete ur comment maybe u put site or email so YT delete it not me
how r u?
raafat1999 2 years ago
Hey,
I am fine thanks!
I am having a rough week full of exams!
YT has some problems lately, maybe it was their fault.
How are you??
Flipsen89 2 years ago
im fine thank u,
best wishes for ur exams.
so we will continue next week?
but i have somethink, if evolution is correct we will see the same organism in the same place, like all the creations in lands will be like sheeps, and all creation in sea will be fish(no sharks)
raafat1999 2 years ago
What makes you think so?
Where is the evidence for such a statement?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
what im trying to say that under same condition the creations will be the same
like in deasert if the evolution is true all creation will be camels, if its easy to change from Species to another.....
do u have a facebook account
raafat1999 2 years ago
If there were completely identical conditions evolution would happen much much much sloweras natural selection would only rule out one set of mutations.
On earth however we have so many different sets of environment and sometimes it changes drastically, so evolution happens faster.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
faster??? i hope u chose something else other than evolution, christian will be good for u, at least they have something good to believe as long u will not consider islam as an option....
any way search in facebook ( rafat alhalaki) and add me
raafat1999 2 years ago
I have already been a christian once upon a time.
Well the word "fast" has to be seen in relation.
Speciation can happen within billions of years of just several hundred. It depends on the environmental conditions.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
so u miss understand evolution, or u use evolution si it fit to ur theory, evolution as it say it take more than millions of years
anyway why u change from christianity? what is wrong with it
raafat1999 2 years ago
Well, there are many logical flaws in christianity and I don't want to believe something without any evidence.
Evolution can happen very fast.
Let me give an example (I try to make in clear so I have to make up something)
Let us imagine there are blue and green rabbits. 99% of them are blue and 1% are green.
The colour is caused by mutations.
Then suddenly the environment changes in a way that only the green ones survive because of their colour.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
Yes I do have facebook, how about you?
Shall I search you?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
What prevents us from landing on the moon?
What makes it impossible?
Don't avoid the question, I need a real answer for this!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
conspiracy theory is ridiculous????
all ur lifes depend on theories...
since that time did u hear any landing on moon????? and about physical law, to leave the earth gravity by human it take so much energy and speed, that make it impossible,
raafat1999 2 years ago
The last landing on the moon was at the 14 of November 2008, by an indian Moon Impact Probe.
It was unmanned and measured atmosphere and descent rate.
And about gravity ad how strong it is:
We can leave earth and we have done so!
The voyager probes for example!
The landings on Mars!
All the high orbit satelites and so on!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
it was not landing, and this indian moon impact probe, did it return??????
and if there r any man on it may be it will be impossible, because man need a place to live, and that will increase the size of satillete, and that will increase effect of gravity on rocket...because of the increase of energy to break the gravity.. this is for one man, do u think what about 3,
raafat1999 2 years ago
"did it return??????"
It was an impact probe, so no it did not return.
But what is your point?
We can escape from the gravity well that is formed by our planet we have done so in the past and we will do so in the future.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
Allah's Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?
Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning
Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.
So, which one is it? Is the day of Allah equal to 1,000 earth years or 50,000 earth years?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
this is not the way to understand any book, u must have not the way u like but as the auther want,
raafat1999 2 years ago
this not a good question to ask, now science prove that days in other planets r different from earth, lets say day on moon equal to 1 month compering with earth, and day on nepton equal to 264years, so all is right, because its a different places
raafat1999 2 years ago
Is it OK to drink alcohol?
Yes:
16:67 And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.
No:
2:219 Strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
that prove quran is scientific when dealing with Addiction, it start with its not good then dont deal with me if u r drunk and then u should stop drinking, then u will be punich if u dont stop it.... so see how steps it take to order ppl to quit alcohol, scientific
raafat1999 2 years ago
"so see how steps it take to order ppl to quit alcohol, scientific "
Scientific would be if there were certain experiments and data that prove this statement.
The quran is NOT a scientific book.
It is a book with many tales and myths.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i gave u this example to show that quran is scientific but u dont want to believe or at least understand, u ask me and i answer u, it was ur question, the ayahs in quran came in this ordar as u see....
ok tell me how to quit smoking????
raafat1999 2 years ago
Well, you said Quran was scientific and I told you why it is not.
It is not that I don't want to believe.
Again if the passage was scientific it would mention experiments, verifiable data and it would formulate clear hypothesis.
Is there anything in the quran people could not have know back then when it was written?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
did u ask Einstein,from where he get this: E= mc2????
quran mentiened that stars r so big( Nay, I swear by the places of the stars - (75) And lo! that verily is a tremendous oath, if ye but knew) - (56-75,76) u ignor this ayahs and there is many and according to quran human cant leave earth, so human did not reach moon
raafat1999 2 years ago
How could you possibly make the connection between the size of stars and E=mc²??
Humans can leave earth and we did!
Do you know about "mir" and the international space station?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
no it was just fake movie, it was the cald war and the US has to win, so they Fabricated this movie, human cant leave earth, that mean if u on its orbites still on earth.... and i dont make connection i just said quran Mentioned the size of stars
raafat1999 2 years ago
We can leave the orbit of the earth!
There is no physical law that prevents us from doing so!
We sent probes to other planets!
Probes have been on mars, and WE DID LAND ON THE MOON!
The video was not faked!
Your conspiracy theory is ridiculous!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
How should Jews and Christians be treated?
2:109 Many of the people of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers.... Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command.
Like this??
9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah.
Or like this??
Flipsen89 2 years ago
how should they be treated ???? how u ppl treat muslims??? i saw some athest speak about how good to play by muslims head, and how much its funny,
raafat1999 2 years ago
"how u ppl treat muslims???"
I NEVER treated a muslim bad!
So don't generalise!
I am against every one who discriminates people because of their religion or other reasons.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i told u before u r a good person, but u one of many, see where all war now happen mostly in muslims countries....
raafat1999 2 years ago
It is not my task to disprove your religion, it is your task to prove it.
Disprove the invisible pink unicorn and I will follow you!
You see the absurdity behind such a statement?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i can prove it for u if u want, if u come to the middle east try to pass by me... i will invite u to middle east dish and to see petra(google it, its amazing) and then we will have a talk,
raafat1999 2 years ago
BTW, direct evidence does NOT mean that I have to see it.
It has to be teastable and demonstrable in some way!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
And NO, evolution is NOT a religion.
It is supported by tons of evidence.
BTW, evolution and atheism are not bound together.
There are many people of faith who accept evolution and there are also some atheists who do not accept evolution.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i told u athiesm was found by the ppl in earopa in 1700-1900 as a reflex for church and its stupidity, and the matter of deny the god, so ppl of that time deny god and end that Discussion of the authorities of church on ppl, so when i speak about religion, u imagin the church and its ppl, but i dont like the way they think, try to see another way of thinking, i see urs
raafat1999 2 years ago
I am not "imitating" the people back in time, I am also not denying god, I am just asking for evidence and everything I heve seen by now is everything but certainly NOT convincing!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
if there is a hard evidence for the presence of gad like we can see him, so that mean we dont have the right to chose, but allah sent messengers for us to follow them and deserve the heaven
....if some one told u that there is an exam after 2 months will u study for it?
and i think u imagin me like a cave man because im a muslim!!!!!!
raafat1999 2 years ago
I do not think, that you are like a cave man.
I have said before, that you seem educated.
Well, but there is a problem.
So Allah wants me to take his existence on blind faith?
You just admitted, that there was no direct evidence!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
direct evidence? like to see him?
i dont have to see him to belive in him, i just read what he send to me, in the Opposite u believe in stones(Fossils ) and u make all ur thoughts about it
i believe in reading, and u believe in fossils, do u think fossils is a direct evidance for ur theory, do u think there is a life in mars???? or any where out of earth???? it was as a fact in the 1960s like what u speak to me right now, all ur theory is just like boy game to make ppl busy and u follow......
raafat1999 2 years ago
You believe in reading?
Do you believe EVERYTHING you read?
I doubt it!
How do you know, that your god wrote your holy book?
What is the difference between your holy book and the hundreds of thousends of other holy books?
By saying that the knowledge changes you confirm, that science is self-correcting.
If evolution was proven false with sufficient evidence I would stop accepting it.
Religion, is not open to criticism,
you claim absolute truth and you can't even support it with evidence!!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
no i dont believe in everything i read..but i give every information time to be proven or not, i put my holy book on a test many time but i dont find mistake,instead i found it so perfect,and ur nation known with scientific stupid idea like life in mars ppl was so confidance about it ,and there was (sufficient evidance) then what?? no life there....and about criticism, there is a different between it and insulting, prove that religion is false and i promise i will follow u, but not insulting
raafat1999 2 years ago
"i dont find mistake"
Even if it is internally logical and sound, that does not mean, that the premisses (i.e. god exists) are correct.
For example:
Everybody from Italy is yellow.
Marco is from Italy, therefore he is yellow.
This is logically correct, buit the premiss (everyone is yellow) is simply wrong or not supported by evidence.
BTW, there is the possibility of life on mars, but it most likely would be bacteria and so on.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
wrong similarity, this is not the way on my holy book, its amazing in the way u think its magic, just try to read, u will find many actions written 1400 years ago happen now
and about life in mars hahahah, this is impossible because its -60C so its not right.... try to read about mars
raafat1999 2 years ago
You do realise, that some microorganism could survive.
And there once was liwuid water on mars.
But this is not our issue.
A book itslef can not prove a thing.
Harry Potter is not proof that Harry Potter exists.
It is a story.
If you want to prove that Harry Potter exists, you have to do this outsidfe your story, otherwise it is circular reasoning.
So what is your proof the quran is right?
Internal consistency is not enough, you need outside evidence.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
if u want to be scientific u should know that quran take 23years until all the book was collect as its now, so if u want to know what the meaning of any word in quran u should the history and what happen for this word to be said,
like how to treat jews, at that time muslims and jews were partnar, but jews betrayal muslims,even they have agreement, so they ask allah about the judgment for them, so allah send some chapers about them, we dont hate jew but we should be careful
raafat1999 2 years ago
BTW, a "theory"in science is different to the word "theory" as you use it in everyday life.
A theory in science means an explanatory model that is supported by facts and evidence and tells us how and why something is the way it is.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
how much does it take for mutation or evolution to happen????????
raafat1999 2 years ago
It always happens!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
how does it take?
raafat1999 2 years ago
I did not understand what you are asking for.
Could you please refrase it?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
we cant measure evolution during our life? so we cant prove it
raafat1999 2 years ago
As I said, we already HAVE measured AND SEEN speciation happen.
We can measure evolution and we have, why are you ignoring this?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i dont want to enter this thing about proven ur theory, because its like ur religion, all i say that we all will die and if there is something after death it will be a big problem for u.... and consider it my theory and its proven that we all die and for sure there will be life after death, because like the life start once could happen again
raafat1999 2 years ago
So you just ignore the FACT, that we observed evolution and still do?
Do you have any proof for the assertion that there is anything after life?
As far as we know from medicine there is no activity or anything else after you die!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
BTW, this argument of "we can't measure it in our lifetime" is horribly wrong!!
You did not live when Muhammad was born and yet you know of him.
We could not measure how the sun formed and yet we know how it happened.
This is because we know the laws of the universe and we know how the universe behaves and so we know how certain things have to have happened!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
for the information avialble its ok or we can accept it but after 100years this information may be will be wrong, like ppl thing that earth is flat and how thing its round will be stupid but now guess what? its round, for our informations its ok but after 100years what would happen
raafat1999 2 years ago
i hope when u defend a theory u know what is going on on it.....
raafat1999 2 years ago
So you want me to explain evolution to you?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
Hey raafat1999,
how are you?
Found any proof of Allah yet?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
sun, moon, earth, rain, all change on earth, my love, my heart, my woman, boys and girls, respect .... every thing proof there is a god
raafat1999 2 years ago
Those things prove that those things exist, not that some magical being exists.
You can do better than this.
I would go as far and say that you are an intelligent person raafat1999.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
sun: we know how it probably formed
moon: we know how it probably formed
change on earth: largely explained in detail
your love: a wonderfull thing that has not been fully explained, but by know the major things are reactions in your brain
your heart: pumps blood
your woman, boys and girls: human beings that came about by natural means.
respect: human characteristic explained by sociology
Flipsen89 2 years ago
your heart: pumps blood??? god this is not good for u if u consider heart is just a pump
and thank u for intelligent thing... i already say that u r a good respectful person
to understand me, i saw a movie its name is (good well hunting) i think, so see it if u can and tell me ur opinion.
it speak about a clever young man (like u) face doctor, he answer the same answer of u, its a good movie see it, then we will speak, again thank u
raafat1999 2 years ago
I know what you mean when you speak of your heart.
You are talking about emotions.
I admit that it sounds cruel when I say that your heart pumps blood, but that's the truth.
Emotions are produced in the brain.
Again, this is just the biological approach my philosophical answer would look completely different.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
so when i love a girl i will tell her that my brain loves u.... and if she tell me that she loves me from all her heart i will be angry because heart is just a pump!!!!!
did u love any one before (not have sex)
so can we describe feeling? can we feel emotions? no matter why athiest call themself animals(no Offense ) i send u a song
raafat1999 2 years ago
To say that loves comes from your heart is a metaphor and expresses your feelings, it is not really that way.
Yes I have loved and I still do.
And yes some feelings have been described. For example happiness. There actually substances that cause you to feel happy. If you eat chocolate those substances will activate your brain and you feel better. It is as simple as this.
But really that does not mean that it is less beautiful or great, it is just explained naturally.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
heart who take the responsability of love ... as u feel, and why want to make it diffeculte, u can see or feel emotions, if so why when i love some girl she dont feel what i feel for her....did u hear the song?
raafat1999 2 years ago
Yes I heard the song, but I don't speak the language, so I did not understand it.
Well, only because we can explain how they are produced it does not mean that emotions are "simple". They are still very complex as we have a very large number of emotions and feelings.
But only because they seem so wonderful does not mean that they have to come from a god or gods.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
emotions r simple and u want to make it hard, this is the same way with god(there is only one god) u just want to make it as u want, when i say(me heart is broken) that mean my heart not me brain, the same way with god god is exist but u want to make it hard( let me see him) so let me see emotions
raafat1999 2 years ago
If your heart really was "broken" you would die in a matter of minutes.......
Why is it so hard for you to understand?
There is no evidence for your god.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
love is the evidance of god....
raafat1999 2 years ago
Love is a human emotion and proves that humans have emotions.
Love actually fits perfectly in the theory of evolution as it is a big advantage for a species.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
its far away from evolution, love against logic and against sciense
true love make rich girl marry poor guy
which is against logic and heal DISEASE WHERE sciense stop, we cant touch love but we can feel it, all the world built on love, i see u have no emotion, wish u find it soon, islam actully built on love
raafat1999 2 years ago
Of course we can't touch love, as it is only a word to describe a set of emotions. Everything you say is perfectly explainable by evolution.
I do have emotions and I do know what love is.
Just because I have a rational and natural explanation does not mean that I fond it less exciting and moving.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
this is the idea, and this is the philosophy that the most important things we cant feel it but we can feel it effect on us, we cant see god but we can see his effect on us, i hope u could understand, evolution has no rational and natural explanation, it just dreams and wishes, like vampire and i told u the history of evoultion i think,
raafat1999 2 years ago
What would be an effect of God I can measure, that is NOT explainable by natural means?
Evolution is purely natural.
Tell me One thing:
What prevents evolution form happening?
Random mutations and Natural selection are FACTS.
Genetic drift and all the other factors have also been proven as facts.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
because evolution is not measurable, and dont tell me fossiles, fossiles say that something was there and something was there and evolution ppl said this thing change to that thing, so we can measure it, it just theory, u ppl say its proven as a fact, for me i see many gaps
raafat1999 2 years ago
We have observed speciation.
That means that we have actually SEEN with our eyes how one species turns into another.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
What the quran says about non-believers:
4:101 "The disbelievers are an open enemy to you."
4:91 "Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."
5:51 "Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them."
9:5 "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush."
Flipsen89 2 years ago
hi how r u? im back from aumrah
and about those ayah, do u know who those ayahs speak about? and what happen at that time so quran say these words.... it was at time of war, and there was a special reason
raafat1999 2 years ago
Hi raafat1999,
I am fine, thanks.
How was your trip?
"and what happen at that time so quran say these words"
I had a discussion with a muslim and he claimed, that the quran never speaks about killing any non-believers and this reminded me of your position.
"it was at time of war, and there was a special reason"
What was that special reason?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
it was amazing, i went to macca, there is some thing special in macca that make u want to go there, u will feel holyness
and for u to know not everone know about islam, to know islam u must read history, non-believers at that time kill there dauther and kill , steal, and worship a stone, and they fight muslims, so in return u have the right to fight back, so this ayah give premission for muslim to fight back, it was not allow to fight before,
raafat1999 2 years ago
"and worship a stone"
Nothing "bad" about this.
"and they fight muslims, so in return u have the right to fight back"
You have every right to defend yourself, but ONLY defense (you know my position: I am absolutely against any preemptive strike against the middle east by the US and other forces).
I want to make clear, that I do accept your religion and faith.
All I want is, that when you claim allah definetely exists, you have to provide proof.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
before this ayah at time of prophet mohammad it was not allowed to fight back even if they kill muslim, for u to understand if muslim see nonbeliever kill his muslim brother he did not have the right to defend him, so this ayah gave them premission, i will answer the question about exist of allah by his done
u should believe in him without seen him, this is the test, u believe in Dinosaur even u didnot saw them !!!!
raafat1999 2 years ago
"for u to understand if muslim see nonbeliever kill his muslim brother he did not have the right to defend him, so this ayah gave them premission"
Why not give the permission for self-defense against anyone?
Why are non-believers special in this matter?
"i will answer the question about exist of allah by his done
u should believe in him without seen him, this is the test, u believe in Dinosaur even u didnot saw them"
But we have fossils and overwhelming evidence.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
nonbeliever did not give muslim premission to speak or spreading there ideas, and if there was a permission for self defense they will call islam as a terorrist religion at that time, as they speak about islam now, and if u read the ayah it give the reason why to fight nonbeliever, u read kill but why kill....
and this universe is not enough for u to believe? car should have creator and this universe came alone???????
raafat1999 2 years ago
"car should have creator and this universe came alone? "
To compare a car and the universe is the first mistake.
A car is built, yes, but the universe could have come about without such a creator.
And if you look at a car, we can go to the creator.
We can see him, touch him, hear him, smell him and taste him.
We can not do this with the "creator" of the universe, so you would have to prove the creator in order to prove that it was created, not the other way around.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
And if you look at a car, we can go to the creator...this is the prove, if we look to the universe sure there is a creator.
and im sure i cant see him or feel him because he is so great when i see the earth and sun and i will not speak about the galaxy, so i look for him and i read quran and i found that quran represent him so i follow,
raafat1999 2 years ago
"and im sure i cant see him or feel him because he is so great when i see the earth and sun and i will not speak about the galaxy, so i look for him and i read quran and i found that quran represent him so i follow,"
If you can not sense or measure your god, you take his existence on faith.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
If you can not sense or measure your god?
if we ask bacteria to see or Measure a human could it do it
raafat1999 2 years ago
"if we ask bacteria to see or Measure a human could it do it "
Does a bacteria make the claim that we exist? ;-)
Think about it.
If you make the claim, that a god exist, you should be able to support this with evidence.
If you say, that you can not prove him, because we can not measure him, how can you even know, that your god exists?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
how could u measure some who creat a galaxy or the sun, and universe ,and if i see him that will not change that i believe in him?
u prove dinasourse even u did not see them by there Fossils
raafat1999 2 years ago
"how could u measure some who creat a galaxy or the sun"
If you can not measure him, you can not know ANYTHING about him.
"u prove dinasourse even u did not see them by there Fossils "
There are evidence for dinosaurs.
The fossils clearly prove that they existed.
There are no fossils from god ;-)
Flipsen89 2 years ago
ok like the landing in the moon.....
raafat1999 2 years ago
"ok like the landing in the moon....."
?????
Flipsen89 2 years ago
moon landing was just lie.....a fake movie
raafat1999 2 years ago
"moon landing was just lie.....a fake movie "
Oh come on!!
I have seen all those ridiculous claims, that it was just a fake!
They have all been debunked!
But that has nothing to do with your god!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
its not related to my god im sure of him...
but im not sure that i can change ur way of thinking, u just repeat what ppl say to u,
im not insulting u, and im sorry if u think so, and what ppl tell u is just lie
if u dont see my god that doesnot mean he is not exist, and ur claim is just u dont see him,
but because u saw a movie and ppl say it is the landing on moon and u believe it,
so Jurassic park is true because its a well done movie
raafat1999 2 years ago
Hey raafat1999,
sorry, I have been on holiday for the weekend!
How are you?
"im not sure that i can change ur way of thinking"
Wel, you could by presenting evidence and proof for your god.
"if u dont see my god that doesnot mean he is not exist"
Right, but if we there is no way to know if he exists, how can we even say that he does?
"but because u saw a movie and ppl say it is the landing on moon and u believe it, "
I believe it because of the evidence! And it is OVERWHELMING!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
You call this a video?
Please ask someone who speaks english to redo everything, add some images and a minimum of source for your information.
tyndaleffect 2 years ago
If you were able to provide proof for your assumptions I would believe you.
If you can provide empirical evidence for your claims, I will believe you.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
and because u know athiesm u say so, but if u dont know athiesm u will say athiests r bad, and like what u did about sharia, u prove that u know nothing about islam, and u just folow media
raafat1999 2 years ago
"and because u know athiesm u say so, but if u dont know athiesm u will say athiests r bad, and like what u did about sharia, u prove that u know nothing about islam, and u just folow media"
So following your logic you don't know nothing about atheism, because you think it is "bad".
I don't think, that evry muslim is "bad".
I think, that many interpretations of the quran can inspire a person to do bad things.
My point is, that there is no proof, that the quran is true.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
My point is, that there is no proof, that the quran is true? u dont even read quran, u bring some note from hate book and u build ur point on it
raafat1999 2 years ago
"u dont even read quran, u bring some note from hate book and u build ur point on it "
The quran itself can not prove itself.
That would be illogical.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
I suggest you read Marc Hauser's "Moral Minds: How Nature Designed our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong". In the book, hypothetical moral dilemmas are presented to a group of people from various different religions and atheists. The conclusion was that there was no significant statistical difference between religious believers and atheists in their answers to these dilemmas.
Renius125 2 years ago
i dont say here that athiest is not human , i just say athiests will act like animals because of there believe
raafat1999 2 years ago
Well, you are wrong.
Renius125 2 years ago
no im right, and u can see it in athiest society
raafat1999 2 years ago
"no im right, and u can see it in athiest society "
Example and evidence!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
Well, of course you are right for your own distorted views of morality. But that's not saying much. The most atheist societies in the world are also the most healthiest and wealthiest, while the most religious ones are still living in stone age.
Renius125 2 years ago
healthiest and wealthiest.... u say that u steal arab oil is wealthiest... and all dieses which came from ur athiest countries is healthiest.... dont forget pig flu (its from ur nations) we dont eat pigs
raafat1999 2 years ago
"dieses which came from ur athiest countries is healthiest."
Evidence and examples.
Which country do you think is an "atheist" country?
"dont forget pig flu (its from ur nations) we dont eat pigs "
It is from mexico and this clearly is not an atheist country.
The vast majority is christian and mexico is not considered to be very wealthy and healthy.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
saudia arabia r athiest because they r rich, and all athiest countries hope they be friends with saudia arabia
raafat1999 2 years ago
"saudia arabia r athiest because they r rich"
Wikipedia: Due to the legal framework of the country, which does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited. Indeed, the Government enforces a strict and conservative version of Sunni Islam. Muslims who do not follow the official interpretation, can face severe repercussions at the hands of Mutawwa'in (religious police).
Flipsen89 2 years ago
You don't get pig flu from eating pork. Besides it comes from Mexico which is anything but atheist country. Rest of your reply didn't make much sense.
Renius125 2 years ago
because msxico is not healthiest and wealthiest, they r not atheists, plz be fair
raafat1999 2 years ago
"because msxico is not healthiest and wealthiest, they r not atheists, plz be fair "
You talked about the pig flu and that it would come from "our nations" and we just said, that this is wrong.
What nation would you consider an "atheist nation"?
Flipsen89 2 years ago
"i just say athiests will act like animals because of there believe"
I am an Atheist and I do not act like a pig, a bird, a whale and other animals.
Flipsen89 2 years ago
and im muslim and i dont act like terorist pedophile, and what u ppl describe muslims, and no u act like pig and whale other animals
raafat1999 2 years ago
"and im muslim and i dont act like terorist pedophile,"
And I never said, that you are one.
", and no u act like pig and whale other animals "
Example and evidence!
Flipsen89 2 years ago
i like u man, because u ask for evidance, ever day u show me things that make me respect u, and about evidance u leave ur Parents when u r 18, u sister have a boy friend(have sex without marrige) and u accept it, and there r many example
raafat1999 2 years ago
Sex is a beautiful thing, nothing immoral about it. Be it between a man and a woman, woman and a woman or two men.
Renius125 2 years ago