Hitchens Vs. Alterman Debate Part 4/6 'Is Hitchens Wrong About Everything?'

[MrLtPink]

I'm a big fan of Hitchens. I wonder what he would think of the spineless sycophants who fawn over him and hurl inane, vulgar abuse at his opponents.

Alterman doesn't think the Iraq war was justified. This doesn't make him a "fuckwit" or a "snivelling worm". It's a complicated issue for which intelligent, reasonable people will have different views.

[writersblock26]

Thank you for posting this, IReupload.

[ooshgasm]

Alterman is a fuckwit. Hitchens is right as the west we need to stop ignoring our responsibilites to spread democracy and liberate people.

[ooshgasm]

Alterman is a fuckwit. Hitchens is right as the west we need to stop ignoring our responsibilites to spread democracy and liberate people.

[steveinchelsea]

Unbelievable ! CH is pointing to Libya as a success for us !

[writersblock26]

@steveinchelsea Yeah, that is disappointing, though it is pretty indicative of Christopher Hitchens' dearth of counterarguments in this debate (and I say that as a Hitchens fan).

[steveinchelsea]

@writersblock26 Yeah, well I've liked Hitchens in the past, but when he got way over his head in his anti-Islamic screed and started to defend even the most implausible Bush/Rumsfeld/Rice strategies I jumped off his bandwagon. Now most of the media was blindsided by the events of this spring, but 'ol Chris was really caught with his pants down. A few months ago before the all the uprisings started he was rhapsodizing in Vanity Fair about how all Arab states should be like Tunisia !

[YourNameHere1212]

I love polling statistics. I guess if you broadcast that the war was a failure 24/7 365 days a year, Americans start thinking that it is a failure whether or not it actually was. Polling data is about media and everyone knows about our wonderful media and their fair and balanced coverage of world events.

[l3lip]

@soapfiction

It got my general point across, and that is that calling Obama a socialist or calling Rumsfeld a neo-fascist are both erroneous.

[l3lip]

@soapfiction

I'm simply refuting the silly contention that if Obama was turning America into a socialist country, 10% of the population would not have 85% of the wealth, give or take the percentages of which you mention.

It stemmed from my analogy of the illogic of comparing neo-cons to fascists.

[l3lip]

@soapfiction

10% of the population retains 85% percent of the wealth in America. That's all you need to know.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that - I'm referring to a slogan re-iterated by the Right as an example.

[knowthetruth1492]

Hitchens is a fascist.

[l3lip]

@knowthetruth1492

Nice facts you got there. They really corroborate your position.

[knowthetruth1492]

@l3lip , I would take back my comment and just say that Hitchens is an intelligent man with great ideas that just happened to side with fascist neo-cons like Wolfowitz,Rumsfeld,and Bush on issues like Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan.

[l3lip]

@knowthetruth1492

Fascism is a really strong word; most extreme leftists like Alterman here wouldn't even use it to describe them. That equates to the Religious Right calling Obama a socialist.

[babyshambler]

@knowthetruth1492

Hitchens is a bastion of free speech. You're welcome.

[larkydozer]

Alterman is speechless upon hearing the effects the war had on Libya.

[MEpianist]

@larkydozer Hitchens actually talked over his retort. Moreover, Hitchens was speechless after hearing Alterman's summation.

[larkydozer]

@MEpianist

To track back over the false statements and assumptions uttered by Alterman here would be a Sisyphean task for which there's insufficient room.

His "summation", as it were, is divorced from reality.

[larkydozer]

@MEpianist

Hitchens demolishes Alterman's appeal to consensus by demonstrating what a fallacy it is in this case.

Hitchens isn't speechless at any point in this video, unless you count the point at which the video simply ends.

It'd be an actual argument if you'd cite some examples instead of lazily saying that something has occurred in this video which has not.

[leonski35]

There are 2 types of people in the world,those that want to be left alone and those that want to interfere with the ones that want to be left alone !

[BeeblesTV]

I like this hitchens fellow.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

I love how this sniveling worm hides behind the majority of antisemitic fascist buffoons that share his distorted world view and refuses to produce a legitimate argument against Hitchens.

[rolynstone48]

What the U.S. military has learned in Iraq, about counter-insurgency and other tactics for subduing and containing a population, has been like a field exercise - a practice ground for when they will be ordered to police the masses in our own country, should they finally get their heads out of their asses, and revolt against the police state !

[fruitsofnews]

Hitchens is somewhat of an atavistic fool. A verbose caveman.

[BARCACROSSESTHEALPS]

A "verbose caveman"..? Sum up all the intricacies involved with discussing such topics as political philosophy, religion, history, war, social realities of foreign nationalities, strategy of the battle field, et al, and do it as succinctly as Hitchens, whether in the affirmative or not. Make an effort to fortify your point with examples next time, please. Sheeshhh!

[fruitsofnews]

I pitty those who have no no shoulders but hitchens to stand on.

[BARCACROSSESTHEALPS]

Wonderful extraction! You fail, and everyone sees it...congratulations.

[fruitsofnews]

What is this a competition of opinions? This is a matter of political opinions. A man who wishes death upon other men for their affiliation to a leader of dubious humanist convictions, saddam in this case, is a morally/ethically retarded moron at best. Infact a cultural incendiarist and a political psychopath. KILL KILL KILL MURDER MURDER MURDER under US Flag.... Is this his solution for the crisis in west asia? My Diagnosis: Non Compos Mentis.

[BARCACROSSESTHEALPS]

What's funny is "non compos mentis" is used when when defending a religious nut, who Hitchens is most ardently not. But, fine. I don't want to carry this to the nth degree...I respect your opinion. I just think calling Hitchens a verbose caveman is a bit of a stretch. That's all... peace to you.

[fruitsofnews]

true that @ historical religious implication of that term. But as I used it in order to insinuate hitchens rather compulsive pathophilia when it comes to judging people of faith and particularly when it comes to people of muslim faith. It is utter nonsense to defend invading iraq. 4000 victims in the WTC. Over 1 Million Dead in Iraq. WHY? HOW do you discuss 911 without mentioning ONE word about the implications of the deal struck on February 14th 1945 on board the "uss murphy". Not ONE WORD!

[BARCACROSSESTHEALPS]

Uhh....1 million dead? Not even the Iraqi government is claiming 1 million. Not even Amnesty Int'l. And AFA the Murphy, I'm not aware of anything ever signed on the Murphy.... If it is the Jidda Conference you are referring too, then I would like to know how it is relevant?

[fruitsofnews]

Iraqi victims thanks to US: watch?v=EPd3ZzrjGzw from 8:00 onwards. For starters. Pretty accurate that young man. Then please google for the following info: "The British research polling agency, "Opinion Research Business", has extrapolated a figure of 1.2 million deaths in Iraq. Thus, the scale of death caused by the British and US governments may well have surpassed that of the Rwanda genocide, making it the biggest single act of mass murder of the late 20th century and the 21st century."

[BARCACROSSESTHEALPS]

No offense but you are quoting polls, not empirical research. The ORB is a communist organization that "researches public opinion". Many deaths, to be sure, but why isn't MSNBC and other sympathetic organizations reporting with documentation any such numbers? Besides, the "murder rate" they rate report is not indicative of US aggression as it includes all forms of death outside natural causes.

[fruitsofnews]

are you being serious? Whether its the lancets numbers or these: should any one of them have died? The million displaced Iraqis on the run in Syria, Iran, Jordania etc... we havent even started discussing on that front. I am talking about immediate and indirect victims and fatalities of the illegal invasion. Who cares from which aisle or institution the information is coming. The truth will not be known ... we simply have a number of estimations which if accurate indicate a horrendous scale

[larkydozer]

@fruitsofnews

"Illegal invasion"

In what way does international law supersede the U.S. Constitution?

And no, the answer is not Article VI of the Constitution makes it so.

[rcreative1]

Alterman had the shot at a knock out, but he didn't take it. Even if all of Hitchens' points are granted about the need to take on Iraq, the chosen method was FAR too costly, and has left us with a staggering economy and deadlocked politics. If the argument had been properly made, it would have delayed the start, but the finish would have come much faster, easier and more cheaply with much more of the burden shared by allies. As Mama always said, there is always time to do it right.

[sanjocal]

Hitchens never gets over-powered in a conversation.

[tjfitz2000]

jackthenigger - please stop spewing your racist hatred everywhere

[JACKtheRIPP3R189]

Grow the fuck up and get back on your meds.

[jackthenigger]

I have a better idea tell your mom to get back on my black dick.

[JACKtheRIPP3R189]

Quit trying to fool anyone, you don't get any pussy. Go crawl back under your rock.

[fergawdsache]

Pakistan is a nuclear power

[infokemp]

We have to invade Pakistan Saudi & Afghanistan with 10 million troops we have to bring back the draft.

Those ISI bastards created the Taliban & AlQueada.

[FaaarLeft]

Alterman loses.

[jotang74]

For a man who is morally outraged all the time against religion, Hitch is curiously morally ambiguous when it comes to Iraq, using Gaddafi as a reason why Iraq was a success, and all the death and waste were justified? That's why although Alterman's getting a serious buttkicking here, I can't take Hitch seriously as an intellectual. He feels too slimy, with no real principals at all.

[richter75]

He is not using Gaddafi as a reason, he is using is as one of numerous outcomes. In freedom vs leftist peace (tyranny) there will always be deaths. You cant take Hitchens seriously because you are a dishonest person, the facts stand out on his side.

[jotang74]

1) To distinguish between "reason" and "outcome", especially when I said he used it as "a reason why Iraq was a success" (i.e. outcome) and not that he used it as a reason to invade Iraq, is dishonest.

2) I said he was morally ambiguous, which is exactly what you are saying by "there will always be deaths," even if these deaths are not justified, i.e. the end justifies the means, which is a morally ambiguous argument.

Thank you for making my point for me.

[richter75]

"even if these deaths are not justified" You said that , i didnt. In these days we clearly see that the intervention in Iraq was positive and rightful. Not only is Iraq in control of its own assets and oil fields contrary to what all leftists claimed. It must be sad for many of you not to see the crazy tyrant still in power and taunting death to america from his pulpit.

Some of us mean it was/is justified, and you dont.

[jotang74]

1) So taunting death to America deserves a death sentence, and tens of thousands of civilian deaths and billions of dollars in collateral damage (thus justifying the war)? There is no doubt that the world is a better place without Sadam, but at what cost?

2) My original point was Hitch's moral outrage against religion vs. his moral ambiguity on Iraq. After listening to his moral equivalence here, I tend to believe his outrages are fake and used as a debate tactic. Search "hitchens rabbi".

[richter75]

You tend to take one point one makes and pretend the whole argument of the opposition rely on this single point. Tauting death to america dont deserve a death sentance ofcourse, genocide , torture and tyranny of a vast majority of your own people and waging wars against neightboring countries do.

Maybe you should check your own moral and debate dishonesty. Search "logical fallacy" while you're at it.

[jotang74]

No, you, my friend, tend to make a whole argument based on a single point. I said death sentence AND tens of thousands of civilian deaths and billions of dollars in collateral damage. You just picked out the words death sentence and ignored the rest. I conceded that he deserved death (hence world is a better place), but the other costs (once again, read tens of thousands of civilian deaths and billions of dollars in collateral damage) are problematic.

[richter75]

Lol, read it again then. You said "So taunting death to America deserves a death sentence, and .."

Civilian deaths it would have been either way if we let the tyrant in power with his wars and genocides or not. The fact is that Iraq is far better off now, and im one of those who feel the price of freedom is worth many hardships. The collateral damage and lack of security is why the US get renewed mandate from the UN all the time. Some of us wipe our ass with the leftist peace alternative.

[jotang74]

Here's your debating style: you take one thing (reason; death sentence, and now, the word and), twist it out of context (outcome vs. reason, ignoring other words, and now, apparently, whatever comes after "and" holds no meaning), call the other side a derogatory term (dishonest, sad, leftist) while refusing to address their central point (Hitch's shifting moral standards).

[jotang74]

Therefore, I can only conclude that you are either incapable or not interested in holding an intelligible debate. So this will be my last response.

BTW, when you quote someone, you need to quote him accurately. Here's what I said: "So taunting death to America deserves a death sentence, and tens of thousands of civilian deaths and billions of dollars in collateral damage (thus justifying the war)?" It was clearly one coherent thought. Try to be an honest debater.

[richter75]

I agree this has to come to an end, you are boring everyone with your stupidity. You did not respond at all to my arguments just to the form it was delivered. Doesnt matter though, you bore me as well.

[koreindian1]

Well then, if everyone had you type of moral purity, we would never stage any time of military intervention of any kind, and that would include an intervention in Darfur.

[jotang74]

Darfur was an ongoing civil war where genocide was committed. Saddam was just a thug who was already boxed in when the war started. I don't think it's fair to compare the two. If we went in and removed him right after the 1st desert war, or during his gassing of the Kurds, then it would be justified.

Back to my point: the difference in reaction between "so some people died, but it was worth it" and "OMG, you cut off the foreskin of a young boy, how dare you!" is startling.

[jotang74]

Okay, he wouldn't have used OMG...

[cantilever]

Economic catastrophe?

The US is in a severe recession...an economic catastrophe is Zimbabwe.

When Americans are dying en masse of cholera, streaming over the border into Canada, and lining up for hours for a loaf of bread, then it will be a catastrophe.

It's a poor choice of words at best...

[double1967]

Smells like another manufactured crisis to me. Create a perception of urgent need and then capitalize on the fear to take even more control.

It's all about "change and hope" though right?

You are right. We aren't even close to where we have been yet, but at this rate and with this insane spending we will be.

[cantilever]

Vide Rahm Emanuel's comments on "never letting a good crisis go to waste"...

(I wonder what Naomi Klein thinks about that...wait a second, I don't care what she thinks at all!)

Obama has a mandate, though...and with the Republicans essentially discredited, the next couple of years are wide open for his agenda...

[richter75]

This is the best argument ever for Iraq intervention sustained and i've seen them all.

[boiiinng]

All he wants to do is complain about the past, not figure out how to fix the future.

[zxslipperz007]

Well alterman, its not just Wasilla and small town Christians. I'm a small town atheist (and not alone in my views) who's getting sick of your smugness, my opinion isn't popular? So what, doesn't make it wrong - thats not an argument and its certainly not working for you so far