National health care better be good

[osmobm01]

The American health status quo needs to change but that doesn't mean that any reform if good reform. Health care should be a right, but it can't be. Unlike other rights, healthcare depends on highly qualified people to provide it. Introducing any kind of government option will eventually lead to total government monopolization of the health system. The cost of health care comes down to the ratio of doctors versus the general population. Reform the current system, don't replace it.

[PairoftheSocks]

The problem with United States healthcare is too much government intrusion. We have literaly converted it to a facist system where government gets in bed with business. If you simply look at healthcare in the 1950's and compare it to today there has to be something wrong, as the 1950's had great healthcare service but it was entirely private. Now its facist and broken, so more government will only make it worse. Government monopolies suck.

[clarko95]

Wow, maybe all these anti-nationalization-of-health­care people should give up their insurance and see what its like without it.

So maybe a few socialist countries have it nationalized. But so does almost EVERY DEMOCRATIC country on this Earth.

Caring for your people isn't socialist, its the right thing to do. And thats what our government is supposed to do, take care of us.

How would you like your child,your spouse,or even yourself denied life just because you don't have enough money?

[PairoftheSocks]

Coecion is wrong so your statement contradicts itself. Nor is nationalized healthcare better. Other countries with national healthcare still send patients to private companies because they dont have the capacity. Ever been to the dmv? Oh yeah, national healthcare will suck.

[hellotommy]

get a job, then you will have health insurance. Stop being a deabeat looking for a handout and you will find the American dream. It is not for lazy SS it is for the people that contribute to society not for illigals and sponges.

[scscruzer]

Maybe all these people who don;t have it should get it. And start prioritizing their spending.

Also, a large part of the uninsured are college aged kids. Most people that work can afford healthcare.

I am not saying it is perfect, but I am not for stripping our system into some eurosocialized garbage that kills innovation and quality. That is not the answer clarko

[econdemocracy]

"He is lying at 1:40, it is actually an advantage for the US" No he is not lying..I realize its counter to the usual spin we hear, but what he said is not only true, it's proven in the marketplace, with US companies moving some plants to Canada to pay Canadians higher wages because that still costs them less than paying Us workers (lower wages but huge healthcare costs). Why? Private is more efficient right? No, our privasystem is much less efficient: 20%+ overhead; Medicare? 3% Canada? 1%

[nabeulien27]

He is lying at ~1:40, it is actually an advantage for the US; without universal health coverage tax rates can be lower allowing our companies to charge less and maintain the same profitability as other companies in countries with universal health care.

[mexicorealestate123]

Americans are leaving the U.S. to find affordable and good health care in other countries. We are seeing better health care at a fraction of a cost in Mexico. Take a look at our youtube page playlist "Medical Testimonials In Mexico" and see some of the medical testimonials that are coming from Americans that are receiving health care in Mexico.

[bbburton]

I did not say it's not the GOP's fault, or the DNC's fault. It's the gov's fault, and if you don't step up and try to do something about it, it's just as much your fault. So look in the mirror and see who's fault that is.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

Before Congress considers any form of government-run health care, they should hear the voices of patients denied care because the government deemed it too costly or delayed care because of long waiting lists for surgery or diagnostic tests.

facesofgovernmenthealthcare(.)­com

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

Remember, you can fool some of the people some of the time... ;-)

[jjrglobal]

Look at the debt to GDP ratio in the countries with socialized medicine.

Norway 114% of GDPFinland 116%

Sweden 129%Spain Germany 137%

Denmark 159%France 169%

Austria 191%Switzerland 264%

Netherlands 268%

Belgium 327%UK 336%

Ireland 811%

These countries are more broke than the US

And this is the model you want the US to follow?Lets choose a more intelligent path, I call it personal responsibility. Use insurance for emergencies only and pay as you go the rest of the time

[epiphanyofreason8]

i think that this is only external debt and doesnt include internal debt if you are going to compare countries you have to include both

[jjrglobal]

It is but thats how you would measure a nations health. Why would you include internal debt when comparing nations Debt vs GDP? It would make no sense to add internal.

[luv4knowledge]

you know you mentioned "personal responsibility"....well for those Americans living under structural violence personal responsibility is an absolute fantasy.....our nation right now is going through the beginning (it will last another 3 decades at least) of a generational homicide with regarding diabetes and obesity, both of which were consequences of turning almost everything in the country into a business....in the US we pay just about the same taxes as in Europe but get far far less in return

[jmartecep]

YES! So true, but there are many here that don't understand that. Good Post. We actually pay 3% less than Canada and they have free health care, what sense does that make? We have been habitually conditioned in this country to avoid issues that we need to fix.

[jjrglobal]

Define "structural violence"

[luv4knowledge]

structural violence is an overall term referring to the way America is set up: to eliminate the poor as much as possible....we're the only industrial country that makes people work every single day and still be poor at the end....it also refers to the fact that there is no interest in the government to objectively deal with poverty, that's why poor neighborhoods are sold off as lost causes and their schools don't get money/good teachers, they don't have supermarkets or safe places for exercise

[jjrglobal]

Eliminating the poor seems like a good thing. We're not killing them, so I assume you mean they have the opportunity to rise out of poverty, which they do. America is the richest country on the planet, to say otherwise is simply a lying. Sounds to me like you're probably some lazy SOB that wants other people to take care of him so you can lay in bed,watch TV and smoke pot all day.

[luv4knowledge]

Did Draco and Stalin get together and have a baby (YOU)? you're way way way off course....eliminating the poor is a horrible thing, b/c by doing so, everyone is at jeopardy....to say "America is the richest country on the planet" tells me you're naive of our history, and i'm not a lazy SOB, i'd quiz your neurons out any day and run you to an early heart attack with my fitness...so don't mess with your generational replacements....i don't smoke pot, i watch wealthier morons do it and take notes!!

[jjrglobal]

Well lets make everyone poor. Is this your goal? It certainly appears to be the Obama administrations. What country has produced more wealth than America?

As for fitness, I've worked on a workover rig for twenty five years, since I was 15. There is no fuckin way you are as fit as me, I'll make you piss yourself within 2 hours out in the oil patch tough guy.

[luv4knowledge]

well manual labor is good, but being female i'm pretty much guaranteed a longer lifespan than you....anyway, the issue with wealth is: do the ends justify the means? and concerning the wealth in our country, the answer is no....we're physically one of the unhealthiest industrial nations, our market system is unsustainable (capitalism is great so long as it's sustainable), and we haven't planned long term.....it's stupid for our country to get any more oil from the middle east or venezuela

[jjrglobal]

I don't expect much from government no matter the tax rate. Here's what people don't seem to understand. Rich folks and businesses don't pay taxes, they actually have the means to recoup whatever the government takes from the middle class by charging more for their goods and services. The middle and lower class does not have this option. Health care will be paid for by the lower and middle class through higher prices.Here's the question, is government more efficient than you at spending your $

[jjrglobal]

The problem is that the only people that know how to fix health care are the ones that nobody listens to.

Cancel your ins

Get a catostrophic policy for less than $500 year w/ a high deductible

With the money you saved by not paying for health ins, start a health savings account to pay for your deductible and doctors office visits, prescriptions, ER etc.

Why is it that I can insure my $1.3 million house for $2000 a year, but it costs that much a month to insure my family for HCare?

[jjrglobal]

Tell you what CD, you go spend about $400K and put in 11 years of education and residency, then start your own practice. Then when the state Medicaid program won't pay for almost 8500 claims totaling over $2 million and you have to close your office, essentially working for free for two years, then you get back with me and tell me how efficient socialized medicine is. Ahw-ight

[fatmaggi]

Find me a doctor in Canada, Australia, France or Britain who hasn't been paid for services rendered. Ahw-ight?

[jjrglobal]

I guarantee you every doctor in every one of those countries has at least 100 claims that have not been paid if they've been in practice longer than a year. Find me a doctor that has been paid for all services rendered. Everyone always talks about the socialist countries as if their doing great.

[fatmaggi]

Well, your gaurentee is worth nothing. I asked my WIFE who is a doctor in ONTARIO, CANADA if she had any unpaid claims. NOT ONE. She has been a gen. prac. for just over 6 years.

[jjrglobal]

Does she have her own practice or work for a group, or a system?

[fatmaggi]

Own practice. Small town.

[jjrglobal]

You know if she had said no not too many I might could believe it, but to say she has never had a claim denied would mean that her office staff has never made a mistake on paper work, so I'm gonna have to call BULLSHIT on that one

[fatmaggi]

Your ideology is getting in the way here. A "claim denied" does not happen in Canada, as we have Universal Health Care. The reason why a claim is never denied? You show your health card when you get to a doctor's office before you see them. EVERY Canadian citizen has health care. Bottom line. Doctors always paid. Emergencies are different, but a claim is never denied, just takes time to sort out. The only drawback for my wife is that she has a salary cap. But at 300+ K/yr she's ok with it.

[jjrglobal]

Well patients show their insurance card or Medicaid card when they come in for an appointment, it sure doesn't guarantee payment on the claim. Medicaid is far worse than private insurance on claim denial. People that don't have a card have to pay as they go. The card and coverage don't mean shit, if the payer wants to deny a claim, you fight it, and you can win, but at what administrative costs. You can only chase $29 reimbursements for so long before you start losing money on it.

[fatmaggi]

Last comment from me on this...the Canadian gov doesn't fight claims. You see, they don't increase their profit when they deny a claim. Why? Because they aren't a corporation! They deny a claim and they buy themselves some serious headaches. A private company does it and their shares go up. See the diff?

[jjrglobal]

So why does Medicaid intentionally change the billing process in order to deny claims? If you think the government is not a corporation, you better think again, it's the biggest most evil most corrupt corporation of all.

[crazygolfer333]

Looks like you're pretty stuck in your ways. It's understandable since (according to your page) you're almost 40! The big 4-0. And you're an oilman no less. There is really no point in you posting. Nobody's opinions here will be swayed by your idiotic statements.

"Wait, it makes perfect sense now. Profit hungry health insurance companies care about their customers well-being, not larger profits."

That's like saying Phillip Morris wants people to stop smoking cigarettes because it's unhealthy.

[jjrglobal]

I hate health insurance companies too, but making the government the largest health insurance company sure as hell wont help. The reason I'm set in my ways is my wife is a doctor and I understand the problem and know that gov isn't the answer. There is a solution, pay as you go, health savings plan, catastrophic high deductible ins, get rid of the red tape involved with pharma and hospitals. Bring back the free market and let it work. Its the only answer

[crazygolfer333]

Just because your wife is a doctor doesn't mean that you have the correct position on healthcare reform. A "health savings plan" is extremely unreasonable for most Americans on their current salaries. Also, Americans currently aren't healthy enough for the "catastrophic high deductible ins" especially if they have children who, as your wife may know, get minor illnesses and injuries more frequently than adults do. The free market is a fantasyland for people that don't want to face reality.

[jjrglobal]

A health savings plan would be funded by the money you save by only paying for catastrophic insurance ($300-500 yr) If your employer pays your health ins or a portion of it, he'll give you the same amount in a raise. It doesn't matter to the employer whether he pays you or Blue Cross, it still is an expense. We get reimbursed $29.50 for a sick visit from medicaid. We would be far better off if we charged $25 cash and not have to chase down claims. Most people pay more than that for a copay.

[crazygolfer333]

Not exactly. Many larger companies save money by working out deals with regional health insurance companies to cover all their workers. So it's actually beneficial to have them get you on their plan instead of just dishing out cash. But I think we're straying off the point. It's not efficient the way it is and free market/your approach in my honest opinion doesn't fix anything. We need accountability from the insurance companies. You get that through tough regulation or by having single-payer.

[jjrglobal]

What you say is true about large companies getting a break from ins co's, this is part of the problem. Why do you suppose health care has risen in costs so much?

[crazygolfer333]

Two separate entities looking for same comprehensive health insurance:

Entity A (Company): I have 1,000+ potential clients for you.

Entity B (Single Person): I'm only 1 potential client, myself.

Who has more leverage to get a better deal in this situation? The answer is pretty obvious.

[jjrglobal]

You still didn't answer my question, why has health care skyrocketed?

[crazygolfer333]

Ask Dr. Wife! But no, I know a big reason why hlthcare has skyrocketed is that prescrips & premiums have gone way up. Companies can jack up the prices with no retribution from anyone. No accountability. Not enough fair competition. Therefore we need single-payer or a heavily regulated private industry. Having a streamlined hlthcare syst will give us a stronger economic & moral foundation.

Gov't is accountable to the people. If they raise the prices too high, we let them have it & vote them out.

[jjrglobal]

Are you shittin me? Vote them out? Congress had the worst approval rating in history and almost all incumbents won back their seats last election.

How will a single payer system bring back competition when all docs will get paid the same based on the procedure. It doesn't matter how talented you are, you make the same as the least talented.

Use insurance only for catastrophes and watch the prices fall. You don't turn in broken windows on your homeowners policy, do you?

[crazygolfer333]

Supplemental health insurance and private health insurance exist in almost all countries that have universal coverage. So no, not all doctors are created equal. NHS Doctors do have very good salaries & are rewarded for making patients healthier. Congress is hated so much because it's not a specific policy or person. It's a collective body. There are too many Limbaugh devotees that claim the current government is a bunch of commie bastards. They like their own Republican representative though.

[jjrglobal]

So how is physician compensation determined under universal coverage? By campaign contributions? Or who your brother in law is?

It seems simple to me that there is no way in hell that a bureaucrat in DC can determine physician salary properly. It would be impossible. I think the "crazy"in your name is appropriate for your lack of any forward thinking

[crazygolfer333]

How is your arbitrary compensation determined? It's interesting to see how little you're taking in from our discussion. Listen, doctors are paid based on how many patients they see, their experience, productivity, clinical excellence, overtime, and bonuses for certain achievements. Resorting to using my youtube screen-name against me really shows that you have nothing left of value to contribute. So long then.

[jjrglobal]

So you really know absolutely nothing about health care or how physicians are compensated?

Why do you feel you need to leave comments you know nothing about.

Doctors are compensated the same amount depending on geographical location on a per CPT code basis.

Your belief that they are paid for productivity, clinical excellence, bonuses, experience, etc... proves you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Why don't you just admit it, and STFU

[crazygolfer333]

That's how they would be payed in the system I was describing. Not how it currently is asshole. I guess you missed that one. NHS (Britains) doctors are all payed by the criteria I listed. Go look it up if you're a little confused.

[jjrglobal]

Under the system in your imagination, who determines physician excellence, since the government will be running the show? How can a bureaucrat in DC determine how well a patient is being taken care of in Texas? Why does Medicare and Medicaid pay physicians the same amount for the same procedure now? What would change the way government already pays? You make zero sense.

[crazygolfer333]

You're an idiot because you just showed the theory that doctors will be payed by "how much they donate & who their brother in law is" is beyond retarded. 'The Medicare and Medicaid system pays doctors the same now.' EXACTLY, there's your answer. Single-payer is a form of medicare for all with the option of supplemental private health insurance. How is that so hard to understand?

A majority of doctors support a national health insurance program. I'll trust their wisdom over yours.

[jjrglobal]

In your previous comment you said physicians would be paid according to their expertise, now you say they'll all be paid the same.

A majority of Dr's do not support a national healthcare plan, less than 5% do according to the New England Journal of Medicine.

5% is less than 95% you fuckin retard

You just make shit up as you go along because you don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you stick to suckin on balls you crazy ballsucker?

[crazygolfer333]

For someone as old and bald as you are, you really are very childish and ignorant. Midlife crisis? I guess you're not happy that you disproved your own argument.

59% of doctors support legislation to establish a national health insurance program. Only 32% oppose. Check out the Reuters article from March 31, 2008. Titled: Doctors support universal health care: survey

Do you have anything else to contribute besides your homoerotic fantasies? Did you let you're wife know about these feelings?

[luv4knowledge]

there's no single reason why healthcare costs have gone up, but multiple reasons all feeding into each other....one book I'd recommend "Making a Killing: HMOs and The Threat to Your Health".....here are some reasons

1. exercise is dead in the US

2. the pharmaceutical industry has no incentive to find cures (think about it, if they cured everything, they'd be out of business)

3. most of the cost of health insurance goes to paying for outrageous amount of outdated overhead and bureaucracy

[jjrglobal]

I agree with you on all three, you could add the American diet, the biggest risk to the health of America.

I don't know what the answer is for pharma, I would like to think that if a company came up with a cure for cancer they would put it on the market. I would like to think the researchers wouldn't be quiet if they didn't, but I don't know. Pharma will never run out of stuff to cure. The FDA is a huge contributor to the costs of pharma and costs many more lives than it saves every year.

[jjrglobal]

The one thing I found that really bothered me was the difference between physician billing and hospital billing. With physicians the ins co's pay whatever they want regardless of charges, with hospitals they pay whatever the hospital charges. It looks to me like the hospitals and ins co's are in bed together. It shouldn't costs thousands of dollars a night to stay in a room with an adjustable bed, so how are they able to charge and get paid that much? The doctors billing is always separate.

[luv4knowledge]

yup.....every rational human agrees that market-based healthcare is a failure....thankfully it's taken about 3 decades to figure that out, whereas in fact it took humans longer to stop other evils in previous centuries.....the best resource to read up on to understand the horrors of managed care is Anthropology....read up on anything written by Dr. Paul Farmer and read "Making a Killing"....these are great resources....the separate billing is incredibly evil and silly, happened to me in the ER

[jjrglobal]

One other thing, do you realize how stupid it is to bad mouth domestic oil companies? If not for us the US would be completely dependent on foreign oil. We help keep the costs and dependency down. You have no idea how tough the oil business is, you've probably got some meaningless pencil pushing job that produces nothing but waste. So STFU!

[crazygolfer333]

Ouch. Did I hit a soft spot? It's funny that you tried to insult me with the word "waste". You're an oil and natural gas man. I think you can guess where I'm going with that. I don't have a pencil pushing job but some people do enjoy their white collar work. It sure would beat working for oil corp bastards. I prefer to have a mentally and physically challenging job as well.

Drill baby drill!

[fatmaggi]

Not "their" btw. "They're" is correct. Socialist Education a tad better with grammar perhaps?

[jjrglobal]

What are you talking about?

[jjrglobal]

Ins Co's prevent clinics from giving discounts to cash paying customers.If people paid as they went and insurance was used as it wwas intended (catastrophe's) then the prices would fall dramatically.

. But where is the competition if all doctors, regardless of capability, get paid the same rate per procedure?

[17Spartacus76]

Take it from someone who is stuck with nationalized health care, it absolutely positively sucks.

The big myth is that US health care is private, when in fact it's the second most regulated and controlled industry in the country (the financial sector being the most regulated, and just look how that turned out).

How about ending the HMO Act and removing, say, 50% of the regulations that are on the books. Most of them have nothing to do with safety or quality.

[crazygolfer333]

Anyone who argues that a completely free market healthcare system is the answer is way way off. Health insurance companies are driven by profit. Spending money on patient procedures will be avoided at all costs because that will bring their profits down. Employees at health insurance companies are REWARDED for denying claims. Completely legitimate insurance claims. Simply ridiculous!

Please, someone respond with a ridiculous free market approach. But let it be knowledgeable please.

[FaaarLeft]

Even since I started watching The Real News, I can't watch mainstream news. Most other news outlets are insulting to average people's intellegence.

[beltanebabe55]

If you mean our health service ExiLardanx yes it is and it is fair and open to all. Our Doctors and nurses are amongst the best in the world and are dedicated to caring for patients. The fact that British people live longer than Americans is a testiment to the health care workers dedication to people NOT money. I consider myself lucky to have been born in a country that puts the health of it's people first and profit last.

[AlNouveau]

Is it not amazing how politicians and the insurance industry in this country has convinced so many of its citizens that not having a guarantee of health care is somehow a good thing. They would also have you believe that national health care is lower quality than what you over pay for here, even though people there live longer. I guess the lobbyist really earn their money. Thanks for your insights and your post.

Be well.

[beltanebabe55]

Thankyou and if you want to be well just come to UK and we will give you health care that contrary to some peoples opinion is amongst the best in the world, with doctors who act because they care, NOT because they are scared of being sued. Peace and love.

[random63x]

your increased lifespan is probably not due to your healthcare...americans choose to have terrible lifestyles. and i'm not sure who is teaching health policy in britain, but inevitably the brits talk about how our problem is putting profit before health? what? medicare is one of the largest nationalized healthcare programs in the world.  you guys need to do your homework before you start lecturing us on our own system.

[jjrglobal]

Lets vote on different plans. I have not heard any politician put forth a plan of personal responsibility. Why cant we pay as we go and start a health savings account with a catastrophic policy only to be used in a catastrophe. The ins co's have taken competition out of HC. Restore competition and watch the prices plummet. As it is it doesnt matter if you're the best or the worst dr, you get equal pay for the same procedure.Look at the debt to GDP of countries with socialized medicine

[biped19]

Each state should have it own independent universal health care system, with the federal government playing a small role. Enough of this federalism nonsense. Let the progressive states lead the way with reasonable tax that everyone pays into. health care is a human right. But these changes can ONLY take place after there is a revolution in this country. Trying to fix anything now will amount to only a "band-aid" and will quickly be subverted.

[kerasea]

We are already paying for the uninsured in this country. When they get sick, they go to the e.r. and the e.r. has to treat them by law. The premium of the insured is raised to cover these costs.

[Propagandhi900]

They have to treat them to an extent. When it comes to serious treatment, surgery, etc etc they have to do without.

The number one cause of bankruptcy in the USA is medical bills.

When the system is revamped and changed to a universal one it will be then that the cost will be lower and the care given to everyone.

[kerasea]

Are you saying that the cost will be lower

but also the quality of care will also be lower ??and also waiting times for any type of medical procedure probably

[Propagandhi900]

Cost will be lower, yes.

The quality getting lower idea is a myth given by the right to deter away from a nationalized system.

Insurance companies are legally bound to make profit for their investors, how do they make profit? By turning people down.

Any type? No. For simple issues, yes. Why? Because you are adding 50 000 000 people to the line up.

[random63x]

All companies are legally bound to make a profit, including the utilities, the grocery stores, and the life insurance providers. yet those industries work well. private, nationalized, it doesn't matter how you distribute it if you do it poorly. our insurance companies act they way they do because they have been cultivated to do so by decades of awful regulation.

[crazygolfer333]

You can't compare grocery stores to healthcare. That's the dumbest comparison I've ever heard. Grocery stores don't take your money and then deny you the basic food you need.

[random63x]

that is actually my point. we take advantage of the profit motive in many basic-needs industries, and it works fine...i.e. the grocery stores give you food at a decent price while making a profit. our health insurance industry is the only industry i can think of that is so dysfunctional, but it what separates it's model from the well-functioning industries is regulation, not profit motive.

[Propagandhi900]

That's my point. As long as health care remains an industry it will never be affordable, fair, and it will remain a broken system.

[random63x]

History isn't on your side. We normally see cost reduction with market-based solutions when it comes to tech heavy industries. Medicare is already insolvent, and none of the current solutions going around Congress (or anywhere else in the world) sound like they'll fix our cost escalation.

[Propagandhi900]

Copy France and everyone except teabaggers are happy.

[random63x]

France is facing cost inflation as well...not sure if that would help. On a side note, ff we could magically have their system, I would take it over theirs. Unfortunately, our system evolved differently, and any effort to mimic the better parts of their system will fail in Congress.

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

"We normally see cost reduction with market-based solutions when it comes to tech heavy industries. "

Do we now? Please share some examples.

[random63x]

Sure: computers. mp3 players. DVD players. agriculture. housing construction. pharm. Are there examples of high-tech industries where we don't see cost reduction, other than healthcare?

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

Mp3 and DVD players?! Cost reduction from what - when did the US government try to sell mp3 players to you? My goodness.

I know little about housing - and I doubt you do either. As to the miracles of big pharma, I recommend that you read David Bollier's Private Theft on the appropriation by big business of medical breakthroughs achieved... through government-funded research. Talk about paying twice for the same thing. ;-)

[random63x]

The Gov didn't try to sell them. The point is that their costs plummeted, as we'd expect from marketed, high-tech goods. You don't need to know much about housing to know that the construction costs have plummeted. Drug companies have done many evil things, but they have delivered an enormous amount of innovation and the costs of their drugs are decreasing despite the inflationary policies of the Gov, hospitals, and insurance companies.

[blackiron60]

Gambling with people's health in the name of profit can only be described as a crime.

[kmg501]

How come no one ever asks where they are going to come up with all the extra medical professionals to satisfy the extra 50 million people that would be folded into this coverage? It can take upwards of a decade to train a doctor and a significant amount of time for other medical professionals as well.

Are we just supposed to wave a magic wand and make those people appear out of thin air?

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

I doubt there's any shortage of qualified health professionals in the world willing to work in the US...

[TheJawsusNSexmanShow]

GOTTA CATCHEM ALL

[kmg501]

And you would be wrong. There is not a surplus of qualified professionals. If you do a web search you will find numerous articles lamenting that fact.

[MiranUT]

True. There's a shortage everywhere. And the US is certainly not a system I'd want to move to, especially the health care system. Now Thailand... Maybe American should just be buy health insurance in Thailand. It would be cheaper to fly there to get their extremely high quality care and service.

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

I didn't say there was a surplus of qualified professionals, I said I doubt there's any shortage of qualified health professionals in the WORLD willing to work in the US - and that goes for medical staff from anywhere in the WORLD.

Please don't even try to argue against this, it only makes you look bad.

[kmg501]

You have no facts to support your claim, only empty demands that no one argue against you. There is a well documented of a shortage of QUALIFIED health professionals in the US.

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

The USA is the biggest beneficiary of brain drain in the post-world war II.

Connect the dots - or have someone do it for you, I'm done wasting my time with this.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

What you've written in this thread is quite correct and true.

Economists don't speak of shortages unless there's an externality. In the US there are two. First, the gov. keeps out qualified foreign doctors. Second, the US severely constrains the number of people admitted to medical school.

Why does the US gov. do this? Because the AMA is politically powerful. Gov. controls schemes always inject politics into otherwise non-political questions.

That is the moral hazard of gov. health care.

[bbburton]

How is being a sponge working out for you? Don't you think being free provides more opportunities than being a slave? And the PA was passed by a majority of democrats. Ron Paul voted against it. Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul. And when the PA came up for renewal, who do you think supported it? Obama. So don't give me this crap that it's all the republican's fault.

[MiranUT]

bbburton,

I voted for RP too, even wrote him in in Nov. This is one item I disagree with him on -- although I'd keep the fed out of it. Listen: there is more than one way to do this. No one ever looks at Japan's system. Here, we pay for insurance to our LOCAL gov. Citizens have more control at the local level. I have always chosen my doctor. Compared with care in the US, I'm thrilled with my healthcare in Japan. Family of 3, 400$/month for insurance. Co-pays, 10$.

[bbburton]

If you want to participate in that program, more power to you. Even if they have good intentions, I don't trust bureaucrats to run health care, no matter the cost. And I'm not sure I want the gov knowing what condition my health is in. I'm totally fed up with how gov runs everything else in this country, and I sure as hell don't want our gov involved in any manner with my health care.

[MiranUT]

I respect your position. I want as little gov in my life as possible. But with health insurance, I think of the analogy made about having a fire department run by the local gov as a nonprofit service (note I'm talking about health insurance -- although in this system health care isn't "free market", it's still free choice... at least it is where I live).

I'm a libertarian, but I think local gov sh/could offer some useful services like nonprofit single payer, health insurance.

[brokendave]

Wow=a=list=of=arbitrary=loose=­unprovable=conspiracy=theories­.

[MrLesWhite]

Simple, make it illegal for the current owners to reneg health care for existing workers on a cost basis and 2nd "added heath care" remains a benefit for some employers to offer for desirable jobs in nationalized care!

[bbburton]

Just like everything else the gov does, the cost and loss of freedom and liberty is exponential. The more the gov promises to do for you, the more freedom and liberty are taken away and sacrificed. This idiot seems to completely disregard this fact. To him, jobs are more important than either freedom or liberty. This is unacceptable. Keep your jobs, I'd rather have my freedom.

[jjrglobal]

This first guy is no economists, hes a quack. Listening to idiots like this will get you the former soviet union

[MiranUT]

From my perspective (and P Shiff's), you already do live in a country that very much does resemble the former Soviet Union. Good luck. Still carrying rubbles... I mean dollars around?

I'm a Peter Schiff fan, but after benefiting from healthcare insurance in Japan, it's one industry that I do think should be non-profit; not healthcare itself, but health insurance.

[jjrglobal]

It's starting to look that way. The problem with HC is administrative costs. Since the gov came on the scene and came up with the coding system that changes every week administrative costs have gone thru the roof. If people paid as they went and gov got out of the way, HC prices would go down tremendously

[MiranUT]

True. My son broke his arm in the US. Got 4 separate bills and over 100 pages of paperwork (didn't have insurance in the US). Total bill was 10 grand! It would have been 1/5th the price to have flown back to Japan to have him treated (including airfare). The care sucked, too.

BTW dont have insurance? ALWAYS ask for a discount when you pay in full (even on a credit card)! I got 25% off on all 4 bills, but it did take some time to chase down some of the billers. They hid!

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

"The problem with HC is administrative costs."

You have administrative costs in every healthcare system in the world. Try again.

[random63x]

yes, but ours are much much worse

[Bugstomper2]

Only in the U.S.A. you have Medical Bankruptcies!

[PwndByTheFed]

he who pays decides. if you think for a minute, that you would have access to natural remedies - forget it.

take employers AND the government out of health care and the price WILL come down. it won't be like snapping your finger, but it will happen.

[FreakishDonQuixote]

give me a break you tard.

[jjrglobal]

@PwndBYFED

You are exactly right and the freak is the tard. HC got expensive when gov. got involved. The state of Tennessee tried statewide HC it was called TenCare. It lasted about three years and it was a disaster. Why dont the states decide if they want HC for their citizens?

[MiranUT]

My "single payer" insurance in Japan covered natural therapy for a knee injury I had. They used an electric massage, an herbal-cream massage, acupressure/massage on my back and legs to help relax the muscles in my legs and back. They told me to come in every other day for a week or so. At 6 bucks a co-payment, and such wonderful, cheerful service, I wanted to go every day for the rest of my life! My knee was perfect. Its NEVER given me trouble again!

That's how it could be in the states.

[beltanebabe55]

Believe me I live in UK and our national health service is amazing. Contrary to what a lot of Americans believe we do have choice. I was refferred to a hospital by my GP for a procedure, I asked my GP to change it to another hospital and it was done. The procedure was carried out by a consultant surgeon who came to speak to me before AND came to see me about the results afterwards. In this country you have a right to healthcare but you can still buy private insurance if you choose. IT WORKS

[TenseAlcyoneus]

The notion of a right to health care is specious, because the whole European notion of positive rights is specious.

I lived in the UK and had quite the opposite experience with national health care.

[beltanebabe55]

I will admit healthcare can be better in some places than others but I have lived in Scotland, Cornwall and am now in the south, I have never had a bill for any healthcare,have never been refused healthcare and in the event of me having a major accident and needing loads of expensive care the doctors here don't even have to think of costs they just do whatever is needed to save your life. Healthcare in USA is a profit making business that puts money first and people last, that is wrong.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

Beltanbabe, I think you've erred on three counts.

First, you have received a bill for health care in the form of a tax bill. National health care simply shifts the burden of payment from the person who gets the care to everyone else.

Second, money (by which you mean profit) is the best way to ration scarce resources.Central control schemes are among the worst ways to ration scarce resources.

Third, doctors in the UK also have to think about costs, following gov. policies for rationing.

[mikezephyr]

healthcare is a burden as are roads, bridges and highways- they're not. universal healthcare is a public good not a burden. who are you reagan?

[TenseAlcyoneus]

Mikezephyr, no I'm not Reagan, but maybe I'm channeling Hayek.

You are right, health care is a public good. So what? The disagreement over central rationing of health care is not over whether health care is a public good. It is over whether central control schemes are the best way to ration health care services, a scarce public good.

Central control schemes tend to produce inefficient gluts and shortages because such schemes are incapable of responding to prices.

[mikezephyr]

no, you did argue about the validity of healtcare because it was a 'burden' on taxpayers and because of the inefficiencies of a non-market institution.

this hayekian dichotomy is also wrong, 'central control schemes' are inherent in the operation of late capitalism. the nebulous organization of market wisdom is mystification.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

Not so. I argued against central rationing schemes of health care, This is quite different from arguing against health care. I recognize health care as a good. I also recognize central control schemes as poor way to distribute it.

If 'late capitalism' includes central rationing schemes, then count me against 'late capitalism' too!

[MiranUT]

Japan has 2 single payer systems: public insurance or via your employer. In both cases, we pay for insurance / co-pays. The LOCAL gov manages the program for its population. I agree that central planning does not work, but take it to the local level, its more efficient. Less paper work.

All healthcare/meds for my son were free from birth to age 6 1/5. On a visit to the states, I got red eye. The meds cost 100$ Same meds in Japan 5$. Something is seriously wrong in the USA.

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

"Central control schemes tend to produce inefficient gluts and shortages because such schemes are incapable of responding to prices."

That's the libertarian dogma.

In practice, government-run healthcare systems deliver, and there's not much you or Mr. Hayek's ghost can do about it.

[sirellyn]

People care about stuff close to them. When you are sick with a disease, you care a lot about the disease you are sick with, you don't as much when you don't have it. Money flows the same way. People pay for stuff they care about. The more people get involved with a problem the more resources you can draw from but the worse those resources are allocated. Extra rules, and bureaucracy make it worse. You need some of course. But too many cooks spoil the food.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

No. That's a claim well-grounded in the best theoretical and empirical economics available. In practice, the US health care system delivers much better results than government run health care. In theory, it would deliver much better results if it were free of government price fixing. And government run health care systems do not deliver. We have lots of European health care refugees here in the US.

[crazygolfer333]

False. Almost all Europeans that have a National Healthcare System like the UK have the option of supplemental insurance. There aren't many "refugees" from western European countries, Canada, or Australia. That's simply U.S. insurance company propaganda.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

Great, so you have to pay twice in Europe. Private and public. That sucks. We get people from the UK and Canada all the time. I know two people who are alive because they fled, respectively, German and Canadian systems. That isn't propaganda.

[crazygolfer333]

Who said they pay twice as much? Quite the opposite. They pay less of their income on healthcare.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

Actually, we only know aggregate spending as a share of income for government health care. All the people who come to the US from Canada, for example, spend monies not counted in these statistics.

Also, people in the US spend a much larger amount on discretionary medical care that is denied people in other countries. Liposuction and other elective plastic surgeries, for example, are counted toward aggregate medical care costs in the US. This shows greater choice, not higher costs.

[AlNouveau]

You miss the point. There you have the option of supplemental coverage but everyone has health care coverage. Why would you (anyone) choose to have a large portion of our population not have basic health care? I'm guessing that you have health insurance or you wouldn't feel this way. A second question; why would you choose to burden U.S. industry and workers with the cost of health care when the competition overseas does not. Not smart business is it?

[TenseAlcyoneus]

I may have missed the point. You may have, too.

I'm not defending the current system in the US. Repeat. I am not defending the current system in the US.

I am advocating a policy alternative to single payer: a free market for health care, along with tax credits and such.

So, in answer to your questions. Q1: I want individuals, not collectives, to decide if they are covered by health insurance. Q2: I don't support the current system of employer-based insurance which was created by Progressives.

[AlNouveau]

Could be, wouldn't be the first time. I came to the discussion a little late. The problem I have to the free market approach is that many will not be able to afford it. Tax breaks will not matter for those who live paycheck to paycheck. Medicare is single payer for senior citizens and it works. It's not perfect but it's there for those who need it. We're paying trillions for wars and bailouts and this is so much more important. Thanks for the response and the clarification.

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

"No."

Yes.

European countries with government-run health care systems score consistently higher than the US on things like infant mortality (lower) and average life expectancy (higher), although that raises a question of lifestyles as well.

It takes a stubborn ideologue - and there are many in this world - to ignore the writing on the wall when it comes to health care in America. You keep insisting on a profit-based system, you're gonna dig yourself deeper into the hole you're already in.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

Equality is not the virtue of the US system. It's not a virtue of the US.

I admit it, the US health care system could be better. Currently, the US has a hybrid system that is hugely wasteful and inefficient. The question is whether it will improve more from implementing single payer or by a free market.

If you're saying that we'll never have a free market, you'd be hitting my weak spot. Corporate influence of government is insane here in the US. If you try to argue on efficiency, you'll lose.

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

"If you try to argue on efficiency, you'll lose."

I don't need to argue, I have facts on my side.

I hate to be the guy who talks about numbers but never presents sources, but a few months ago I came across some very interesting data about healthcare and healthcare spending around the world, I believe it was from the WHO...

[TenseAlcyoneus]

"I don't need to argue, I have facts on my side." Who writes that knows neither what are facts nor what are arguments.

All policies have problems. But problems are value judgments. Ex: some value health care equality. I don't.

Honest people aren't afraid to identify the weaknesses of their policy proposals in light of another's value judgments.

If you think facts prove things, you're very wrong on logical grounds. Everything is demonstrated by interpretations and theories, i.e. arguments.

[MarquisdeBarrabas]

What it showed is that, when you compare overall healthcare costs/achievements, the US had an inefficient system, not because the results were bad, but because the costs were so high.

You last paragraph is textbook libertarianism. First you say that a free market solution would be ideal, then you say "we'll never have a free market". Well, there goes putting your little theory to the test! I guess it also means you can say whatever you want without fears of ever being proven wrong...

[TenseAlcyoneus]

Yes. I have written that the US health care system is "hugely inefficient and wasteful." But the costs are not high because it is a free market system, but because it is not.

You conflate libertarianism, a political ideology, and free market advocacy, and economic ideology. I am most definitely not a libertarian. We tried libertarianism in th US, under the Articles of Confederation. It didn't work out very well.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

NExt, MarquisBarrabas, you simply become dishonest. I wrote,

"If you're saying that we'll never have a free market, you'd be hitting my weak spot."

then you wrote,

"then you [TenseAlcyoneus] say 'we'll never have a free market' "

You've misstated a suppositional claim about you as a positive claim from me - an elementary rhetorical and logical error.

Advocates for gov. health care have a good case, so why do they so often resort to fakery? So much for having facts on one's side, eh?

[random63x]

*sigh* we don't have a profit based system. our healthcare system isn't one of them. our hospitals are generally not-for-profit, medicare is NFP, medicaid is NFP, SCHIP is NFP. add to those programs the unbelievable level of regulations we've passed against our providers and insurance companies and you get a different picture. i would personally prefer either a profit-based system or a single-payer. we currently enjoy the disadvantages of both.

[beltanebabe55]

TenseAlcyoneus, First, yes I did pay towards healthcare when I was able to work but what I payed was based on the level I was earning not on what some rip off insurance company wanted to charge me. Now I am disabled and cannot work I pay nothing for care or medication and get the same care as I would if I were able to work. 2nd, Money is the worst way to ration healthcare if it means the rich get,the poor do not. 3rd Dr's don't budget managers do and each health trust manages it's own budget.

[MiranUT]

TenseAlcyoeus,

How do you pay for healthcare? Is your employer taking is it part of your wages/salary "package"? How is that different from a tax? Or are you one of the 50 million w/o insurance?

Look, the drug cos. and the insurance cos. are pushing the cost of healthcare through the roof in the US. Health care costs are MORE than DOUBLE anywhere in the world, but ranked near 40th.

Every system has pros/cons, but Americans are being screwed.

[JSparkleZ2]

Yeah well I live in the US and sometimes when I'm lucky I have health insurance and some extra cash in my pocket and then I can go to any doctor I choose so long as their covered by the insurance that I sometimes have... And guess what, sometimes I can even afford the medication they prescribe after the fact, I mean usually not, but sometimes I can and it makes me smile... And Oh yeah we never have lines here bc no one can afford to go to the doctor... Now who's system is better =/...

[kmg501]

We already have universal health care in the US. Watch this video to see how it works.

/watch?v=ymAmSUzev4o

[n8iveidiot13]

you should look at a graph or some information to where the majority to where the taxes go to... it will be a LANDSLIDE... trust me USA is not getting the stuff they deserve

[mldnathai]

I wish there could be a real nationalized health-care system. but what I'm afraid may happen is that they may just invent an imaginary plague and then give us all poisonous vaccines.

It may seem like a bit of a stretch, but if the Corporate Sector continues to increase their influence on government, it seems likely that something like this may happen.

Instead of laying-off thousands, they may euthanize thousands. It makes more sense from the profit motive point of view.

[biggori]

This may be the stupidest comment I have ever seen. This is no exaggeration. Please have yourself sterilized immediately.

Thank you.