THE SHROUD AND THE GARDEN TOMB ARE CONNECTED EPISODE 5.

[MistyMarie1970]

I am just wondering, does this prove Jesus was dead. am asking as i recently came across some stories that he may have survived, and there are other stories that he survived and went to kashmir, where he later died. they claim to have his tomb and an imprint of his feet with the nail holes. also is there any studied connection between the shroud and face cloth.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@MistyMarie1970 There are stories he went to Japan and they even show his grave there. But it is more likely to be a confusion between the name Jesus and the Jesuits. The Jesuit missionaries were martyred by the Emperor once they started to be too successful in getting converts. After all if you claim you're a God Emperor you don't like competition.

As for Kashmir, as the Moslems claim Jesus was never crucified but a twin brother instead, that sort of fraud would be right up their street.

[cowbellpeaceprize]

Your website seems to agree with Ron Wyatt, a known opportunist and liar. This bothers me. The shroud of Turin wouldn't be touched by Jews as unclean. It's been proven to be a fake made in the 1300s. The Catholics like to fool the people with made up miracles and self made saints to keep them coming to church.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@cowbellpeaceprize Dreary people who don't bother to read the contributions or do more research on YT and the net, but go on about "proven a fake" without even knowing about all the research since then that shows that that date was wrong (for instance the vanillin test mentioned in my previous post) cannot even begin to convince anyone that they are a) hard-working enough to learn anything new b) really interested in science at all, rather than terrified Christianity might be true.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@cowbellpeaceprize Or, more likely in your case, you are one of those sectarian Calvinist Protestants who on ideological grounds automatically reject all 'relics' as fake (which is a bit like saying there cd be no relics of Charlemagne or Napoleon). You're too ignorant to realize that the STURP scientist team that did thousands of hours of research on it included many Prots, and one of the main defender of the Shroud as that of the "man Jesus" is the Jew, Barrie Schwortz. See videos on my side.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@Porphyrygrampus In point of fact one can say that the key research done that shows the Shroud is highly likely to be authentically Jesus's is not the work of the Catholic Church at all.

As for Ron Wyatt argument, that is typical of the guilt or falsehood by association argument. It runs as follows. "My cousin is a fool. AND he believes in ghosts. Therefore ghosts must be wrong." Classical logical failure...

[Porphyrygrampus]

@cowbellpeaceprize As for the idea that Jews would consider the Shroud unclean, this fails to realize that the disciples, once they realized he was alive and resurrected, would not have associated the Shroud with a corpse but with a living body, and would have preserved the Shroud as a key proof of the miracle of the resurrection.

Bizarrely, when I google Wyatt and Shroud, I hit sceptical sites that say Wyatt claimed to have discovered "how the Shroud was faked". So he doesn't seem a supporter?

[realdiscoveries]

@cowbellpeaceprize Your terrible words and condemnation also bothers me. You will one day stand before God and tell him why you destroyed with your WORDS the most important tool of the most important event in history which the Lord God has reserved to strengthen believers and prove TO unbelievers his word is TRUE AND He PROVES IT. If you don't believe it your only deceiving your self not me. Ron Wyatt,TOLD ONLY THE TRUTH.

[realdiscoveries]

@cowbellpeaceprize Your terrible words and condemnation also bothers me. You will one day stand before God and tell him why you destroyed with your WORDS the most important tool of the most important event in history which the Lord God has reserved to strengthen believers and prove TO unbelievers his word is TRUE AND He PROVES IT. If you don't believe it your only deceiving your self not me. Ron Wyatt,TOLD ONLY THE TRUTH.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@cowbellpeaceprize But as Jesus wouldn't have been considered as dead by his disciples who had met and talked to him several times, the shroud would not have been associated with death or seen as unclean.

No one proved it to be a fake. The one thing science has failed to do is show how it was faked. There's only the carbon 14 test that accurately dates the material in a rewoven corner of the cloth.

[regardingwave]

@cowbellpeaceprize You obviously have not researched the evidence yourself. That carbon dating is now known to be wrong as the samples that were analyzed were indeed from the middle ages because they were NEW pieces sewn on. Flowers have been found on the shroud that were only indiginous to 1st century Jerusalem, also, the actual weave that was used to make the shroud, was also only used during Jesus time. And it is known that the image on the shroud was made by a form of radiation.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@mlitsonata Had Leonardo notebooks contained any evidence of experiments in producing images on cloth by photography, the world press and atheist groups would years ago have given us translations and facsimile copies to the blare of trumpets. His notebooks merely refer to the camera obscura, a means of obtaining a reversed image in a dark room of what was outside it by means of a small hole by which light passed. The system was used by artists tracing the images on paper on the wall of darkroom.

[Porphyrygrampus]

Some totally unknown energy imprinted the image of the body by ageing some of the topmost fibres to make a photo negative. That is why some speculate it was the 'flash' of the resurrection. God transforming that corpse into a living body.

As for the idea that the face is too old, after the torture he had gone through it's not surprising he looks older. But the face image too may not be a perfect photo.

[devonbiker]

I doubt the authenticity of this shroud! The evidence I admit is compelling but the stumbling block for me is the face looks too old, the imprint of the body is too detailed considering the cloth would have been on his body for only 3 days! Blood I understand but how come there's so much detail? I am a bible believing Christian so I have no problem accepting Jesus, but this shroud, although very interesting, seems suspect.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@devonbiker No, those who think the image is formed by blood are wrong. Scientists have shown that the blood from the wounds was on the linen before the body image was formed. Where there is blood, there is no body image. The image itself is the result of a very superficial ageing of the linen fibres on the outside, which make parts that form the image slightly more yellow-brown. The cause of that ageing remains unknown. It is unique. It is very shallow. But the blood soaks right thro the cloth.

[devonbiker]

@Porphyrygrampus Thanks for your reply, Since posting I've had a look at other references and teaching about this and so I am more of a believer that this could be genuine. One presenter said the image could have been some sort of thermo energy when the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead burning his image into the cloth! I don't know? But I am more open than I was originally! Plus the few samples of this image made into 3D by computers show Jesus looks younger!

[Porphyrygrampus]

@devonbiker Thanks for that. You will have seen then that the vanillin test on the linen of the Shroud shows it must have been woven before 700 AD and fits in a category of dating that goes back to 1000 BC maximum. This would allow it to be 1st century without a problem not medieval. But the rewoven area where the C14 samples were taken contains vanillin as well as root dyes & gum (but no images) , unlike the rest, so it must largely be composed of medieval material used to mend that area.

[IgnatiusBenedictus]

The so called garden tomb is just another attempt by Protestants to counter what the historic Church, the Catholic Church, has declared to be true. Everyone knows the real tomb of Jesus is in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre just outside the Old Jerusalem city wall. This garden tomb was never talked about by the Early Church Fathers and no one even knew of it until the last few decades some Fundy Protestant declares this to be a discovery. Keep protesting, Protestants, it's what you do best.

[realdiscoveries]

Question: Have you ever compared the dimensions of the Shroud of Turin to those of the Tomb in the Garden? Barrie Schwortz

Turin is not a stable substrate. In other words, it can be stretched, it can be moved, and as a matter of fact, through the centuries the Shroud of Turin has

[realdiscoveries]

actually been displayed, hung from balconies at one end with weights on the other end to keep it from flapping in the wind! So obviously a certain amount of stretching is inevitable with the Shroud of Turin, particularly on

[realdiscoveries]

the long dimension because that's the way it was often displayed. Now, the other thing one has to consider is that this is a linen, finely-woven linen cloth, and it can change its length by as much as a centimeter or more based solely on the humidity in which the shroud itself is kept. So there many variables and there's great debate about exactly how tall the man on the shroud is.

[realdiscoveries]

Some people have said 6', some people have said 6'1, but again remembering the stretching capability and of course the recent 2002 restoration where they smoothed out all the wrinkles and re-sewed the cloth onto a different backing cloth, the shroud grew by another eight centimeters, so that too would have impacted the dimensions of the man on the shroud if they

[realdiscoveries]

were to be measured. So the best studies, and the average of all the arguments if you will as to how tall the man on the shroud is sort of averages out to about 5'11, which is what I then typically use as my answer to the question, "How tall is the man on the shroud?" Remember I came to that conclusion long before I knew about the Garden Tomb. So is this a coincidence? Well, if the

[realdiscoveries]

Question: Have you ever compared the dimensions of the Shroud of Turin to those of the Tomb in the Garden?

Barrie Schwortz

Garden Tomb is the authentic tomb in which Jesus was buried, and if the Shroud of Turin is the authentic cloth that wrapped his body, then one could easily conclude then that it makes sense that they would both be the same height.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@realdiscoveries I don't think Barrie has anything to do with the group that claim the Garden tomb was the right one, rather than the traditional Holy Sepulchre. Here the authors of the video just seem to have used Barrie's lectures in extract. Personally I think one can separate the whole issue of the Shroud from this garden tomb. And the shroud dimensions have zero to do with the size of the tomb, I feel. Ready made shrouds were sold by merchants in the Middle East then, not made to measure...

[Flagrum3]

The last point they made in the video is not correct i.e. "The length of the man on the shroud conforms exactly with the burial space in the Garden tomb" I'll explain why; The Shroud is made of linen, linen will increase and decrease in length depending on temperature, humidity etc;, So the actual height of the man on the shroud cannot be determined, only approximated.Also the Garden Tomb is only a suggested site, it has not been proven the actual site.Don't get me wrong here,...

[Flagrum3]

@Flagrum3 -I am a strong proponent of the Shroud's authenticity but I believe we must be skeptical of many claims made unless they can be tested accurately and scientifically, as false claims to authenticity only work against the truth.The slight height difference between the dorsal and frontal image has been explained, look at Shroud.com-Scientific Papers and Articles-Izabel Picek.

[saxonhawthorn]

As I understand it, the extended cut-out of the rock in the Garden Tomb measures five feet nine-and-a-half inches. This point needs verification.

[realdiscoveries]

Watch the new film on sky called the REAL FACE OF JESUS. and you will see the Shroud is most definitely genuine. Its Clear That God preserved the most important event in the world on a cloth WHY because God knew that most of the human race would not believe in Jesus Christ

[realdiscoveries]

Matthew 13.14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.

[cc23323]

@astevema02. You have to remember that Jesus blead when he was beaten and stuff and that is how the image on the shroud came to be. When they wrapped him in it he was still bloody and the blood got on the shroud.

[laurenb647]

Continued said the 1988 tests were invalid because they were done on a repaired section of the shroud rather than the original linen. Read more realdiscoveries.

Also watch Dr Richard Kent giving a teaching on the Shroud of Turin At Realdiscoveries.

[laurenb647]

and could be the genuine article as many Christians claim.

Ray was a director of the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STRP) that concluded the 14ft-long linen cloth was fake.

But when new evidence revealed the study was flawed, the leading sceptic was forced to change his mind.

Ray, an expert chemist from the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico,

[laurenb647]

Published: in the Sun news paper 10/4/2009

A LEADING scientist and spokesman against the authenticity of the Turin Shroud has now concluded it could be the burial gown of Jesus.

In 1988 Ray Rogers was at the forefront of the carbon dating of the relic depicting a Christ-like image. It concluded the wrap was a medieval hoax.

Now, from beyond the grave, he has admitted the shroud is far older than results suggested —Next artical

[mlitsonata]

Continue: The only possible explanation, to date, that explains all of the irregular facts brought forward about the shroud - is: that it was commissioned by the Pope the Medici family in the early 15th century and created by Leonardo di Vinci in a process that is basically an early photographic process. We know that he did have the knowledge of this process from his notebooks, the shroud first appeared near where Leonardo lived, and he would have been the obvious choice of the Pope.

[Stinukli]

@mlitsonata You said: "We know that he did have the knowledge of this process from his notebooks". I, personally, have never heard of anything like that, so I want you to document for statement.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@mlitsonata You:Shroud "was commissioned by the Pope the Medici family in the early 15th century and created by Leonardo di Vinci in a process that is basically an early photographic process."

Funny how no historians have noticed that dating. Not even the carbon dating! Yr claim that it is early 15th century is immediately disproved by any check on Wiki. The only Medici Pope who lived during Leonardo's career (c.1472-I519) was just before his death, Leo X, 1513-21. Early 15th century?? Drivvel!

[Porphyrygrampus]

@mlitsonata And since the Shroud has a constantly documented history in France since the mid-14th century, it can hardly have been produced in the early 16th century by Leo X and Leonardo. At the time it was the property of the Ducal House of Savoy, and had been for over a century!! There are even votive images of the Shroud from the mid to late 14th century that have been dredged out of the Seine and catalogued by archaeologists.

[Porphyrygrampus]

@mlitsonata You:"the shroud first appeared near where Leonardo lived, and he would have been the obvious choice of the Pope."

You really made me laugh there. The Shroud appeared at Lirey in Burgundy, Franc,e over a century before Leonardo's birth, and you claim he must have done it because he lived in France on the lower Loire 150 years later. What a joker!

[mlitsonata]

These videos are nicely done, but obviously biased. They completely disregard a great deal of facts that have been brought - the most obvious being that the shrone has been carbon-dated to the late 14th century and clearly a fake. Also - the image of the back of the body is about two inches longer than the image of the front - makeing him 6'1" from that image. Also - the size of the head does not fit the body.

[Stinukli]

@mlitsonata The radiocarbon dating was flawed, because we KNOW that the piece/pieces taken for testing was contaminated of NEWER material sew in around 1600 AD. Regarding your claims related to the Shroud itself(dissent lengths of the front pic and the back pic and the head size): You might be able to document them?

[guishard]

it was the blood stains remember he was covered in blood those are the stains

[astevema02]

I don't get it though, why would there be an image of a person there? if this really was the cloth that was used to wrap Jesus there is no reason for an image to be there, or will there be an image of my self in a cloth if I wrap myself in it and then take it off? NO! am I right or wrong?

[1200com]

@astevema02 the image was a result of the scorching light at the instance of resurrection when the body had a transformation from mortal to supernatural form in less than the blink of an eye. From there on, Jesus had the power to become human again or spirit. It was all under his power and will to be in whatever shape he wanted as he was free from the rules of the natural world we live in.

[Flagrum3]

@1200com Actually the method of Image formation has still not been found! The method you mention is an hypothesis put forward from some results found but, not fact as yet.But was not definately created by the blood on the body.

-(Directed to all);For proof that the 1988 C14 dating was found invalid, search for Raymond Rogers; ThermoChemica Acta.(A Peer-reviewed paper).

[1200com]

@astevema02 this was of course an event which took place at the third day after the body was put to rest, as Jesus himself had declared that he would rise again on the third day.

[rickhamlet]

Praise God!!!! God is so merciful to give the world proof of His Son on earth!

[AllOtherNamesUsed]

This is the exact same idea I had when investigating the discoveries of the late Ron Wyatt (whose name is wrongly dragged through the mud I've concluded after investigating every accusation against him for myself), seeing if the man in the Shroud (Jesus) would fit in the alleged burial place in the Garden Tomb. He certainly would. Thanks.

[laurenb647]

This is great research well done.

[wailukshilouise]

Thank you for showing the video