Gothic for Goths - Lesson 02: Gáitsūgja Meins

[petrusson]

Thank you for your work! A question; How to translate "This Gaut kills machines"? I´ve got it down to "thamma gauta fraqistidan vélar" (vélar being the icelandic trancelation of "machines"). Now how wrong am I? :)

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@petrusson Well, your cases are a bit off, and your verb, and there's no V in gothic... but not bad.  Vélar is pretty easily ported over to gothic if you know what to look for - it's from PGmc wîlô (st.f.) which would be gothic "weila." Still, I think saying "Sa Gauts fraquistiþ þô weilôn," might imply more that the Gaut was destroying art, not machines. Just my take on it, though.

[petrusson]

@benjaminpauljohnson I see, and "weila" tranliterates to what more specific? How would you translate the sentence? :)

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@petrusson Weila doesn't translate to anything - that's just what "vél(a)" would have become in gothic if the word had survived that long. But the original definition, beyond "machine," was more about anything that was made. "Artifice" might be a good word. There's no extant Gothic word for machine, but if you want to reconstruct one, that's probably the closest you're going to get.

[TheAdequateFilmmaker]

your accent is flawless

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@TheAdequateFilmmaker LOL Thanks - I often get mistaken for a native gothic speaker. ;p

[christinesawesome]

@benjaminpauljohnson ... unless i'm mistaken, its a dead language? how can you be a native speaker of a dead language? and i can't remember did i ask this before, but i'd like to learn some simpler things to say, like, "i am happy today", or "today is monday". also a few good gothic curses would come in handy =P

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@christinesawesome Yes, quite dead. Sorry, sometimes my sarcasm is too subtle.  I haven't had a chance to make a new lesson in quite a while, but in case I don't get around to it:

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@christinesawesome There are lots of words for "happy," but "Ik im [wizneigs/swēgns/fraus/hlas/gl­aþs/fagins]" or "Ik faginō mik." "Ita ist mēnadag hina dag." (Or maybe "His dag ist mēnadag," but that sounds weird to me)... we'll hold off on curses for a future lesson, though.

[christinesawesome]

@benjaminpauljohnson aha, i guess i'm not too bright, but i love what you're doing with these languages... but i would need to start from a more basic point and i don't have the brains or the botherdness to go looking through medieval archives or whatever figuring it out. i haven't spoken german to any coherent degree, just ye modern english of england, and this is THE ONLY resource of its type i can find on the internet so its still going to be helpful even if a lot goes over my head :)

[GotischOberst]

@benjaminpauljohnson I have to say that I agree with Christine. I think we need to push for Gothic curses. How else are we to live as civilized human beings if we can't call each other scruffy nerfherders in other languages. How, I ask you!

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@GotischOberst I agree! I think I am going to have to buckle down and turn out lessons 7 and 8 that i've been mumbling about for a year now, and maybe start a new basic language series of "Gothic for Gothlings..." Now if only there were a way to make enough money at it to quit my job, I'd make new Gothic videos all the time!

[Eyrynomos]

" Ο τσουπακάβρας μου"

LOL

[katerina4o]

@Eyrynomos χαχαχαχα

[deviantcreep]

THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@deviantcreep Ik þagka þus!

[GermanSecret]

was ist chupacabra?

what is chupacabra?

[Asvaghosa]

@GermanSecret an die wikipedia deutsche

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@GermanSecret lmgtfy dot com slash ?q=chupacabra

[GotischOberst]

Just curious. Where did you get -sugja- (perhaps as a verb, "sugjan?") from?

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@GotischOberst I retrofitted that from the PGmc verb sūgjan with agentive (w.m.s.) ending -ja. (I don't recall the word "sucker" appearing in the New Testament...)

[GotischOberst]

@benjaminpauljohnson What does one do for retrofitting? Is it for the most part a guess? PGmc sūgjan seems already to me "Gothic enough" that it wouldn't need to be changed, but what determines whether you change the word or not? I guess my main point is how did you come up with sugjan (among other words if you have any to make examples out of. And please do, if you have the time! Haha.)?

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@GotischOberst I couldn't begin to describe it in this small space, but let's just say there is a very extensive set of rules that you can apply to a PGmc word to find its Gothic (or ON, or German, or English, or Faroese) equivalent. I go by the rules found in Voyles' Eearly Germanic Grammar, chapter 4, (which works fine for spelling, though we disagree on pronunciation).

[benjaminpauljohnson]

Some examples are:

-eu- > -iu-

-az > -s, -uz > -ws

ir, ih(w) > aír, aíh(w) and ur, uh(w) > aúr, aúh(w) [first umlaut & expansion]

-ww- > -ggw- (sometimes, kinda) and -jj- > -ddj- (sometimes, kinda) [verschärfung]

-Vnh- > -V(long)h- [eng-assimilation]

-b, -d, -g > -f, -þ, -h when word-final [obstruent devoicing]

...and a lot more. They also have to go in a particular order (NOT the one above) in order to come out correctly.

[GotischOberst]

@benjaminpauljohnson Never that simple, eh? Lol. Would I be able to find this book somewhere, or is it one of those old, specialty books like Wright's Grammar of the Gothic Language or Streitenberg's book (of which my copy is one of the original, prints. Very, very old)? And what do you mean by order? If it would be easier for you, we can talk in private messages, which I'm sure has more space.

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@GotischOberst Heh, probably we should continue in PM just for space's sake, but for public curiosity, Voyle's Early Germanic Grammar is (last I checked) still in print and not that old (1991 or so?)... And by order, I mean that the rules have to be followed chronologically according to the sound changes that happened at the time, or you end up with the wrong words. For example, PGmc wiraz (man) and wersiz (worse) > Got. waír and waírsiz means that the z-deletion rule has to precede obstruent

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@benjaminpauljohnson devoicing, otherwise you'd end up with Got. waírs instead of waír.

[GotischOberst]

Same for fliugan. I can't find it listed anywhere (not that I don't think that's the correct word).

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@GotischOberst Yes, fliugan too, technically, but it was not I who retrofitted that one, but Tolkein, in his poem Bagmē Blōma. ("...láubōs liubai fliugand láusai...")

[nutzernam101000]

jamin, thanks for your great work, inspired me to get braune's gothic grammar. hope we'll see some more lessons soon.

question: John 8:19 has "ƕar ist sa atta þeins?" (Where is thy father?). Shouldn't it therefore be

"ƕar ist SA gaitsugja meins?"

[nutzernam101000]

jamin, thanks for your great work, inspired me to get braune's gothic grammar. hope we'll see some more lessons soon.

question: John 8:19 has "ƕar ist sa atta þeins?" (Where is thy father?). Shouldn't it therefore be

"ƕar ist SA gaisugja meins?"

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@nutzernam101000 Wow, great question. Short answer: No. Medium answer: It could be, but doesn't have to be. The long answer doesn't fit in this space, but it has a lot to do with using possessive adjectives in conjunxion with definite articles à la Italian or Icelandic or greek. (cf. Luke 4:7 "in andwairþja meinamma") Of course, a native speaker might have a better grasp of the subtler nuances of when to use it and when not to, but, well, they're all dead.

[benjaminpauljohnson]

@benjaminpauljohnson The other part of the long answer is that explaining that would also complicate the first grammatical lesson of the series and take it a little too far beyond light-hearted right out of the gate. You'll notice that in lesson three i use the article in "sa feina niuja swarta undarhams meins," but I never have really gotten around to explaining why. (In that case, though, you DO have to use the article because of the placement of the adjectives.)

[nutzernam101000]

jamin, thanks for your great work, inspired me to get braune's gothic grammar. hope we'll see some more lessons soon.

question: John 8:19 has "ƕar ist sa atta þeins?" (Where is thy father?). Shouldn't it therefore be

"ƕar ist SA gaitsugja meins?"

[VeganUke]

Which gender does faítharak has? And which declination is it, that you put a "-na" at its end?

[benjaminpauljohnson]

faíþarak doesn't really have any gender, since it's not really a word (see the end of lesson 3), but here the -na indicates neuter accusative plural.

[VeganUke]

strong or weak declination? because i never heard of this ending :S

[benjaminpauljohnson]

weak

[VeganUke]

For the weak accusative plural I would say it is: faíþarakona... But my source isn't the best ^^

I've got a question: Would you be interested to write a gothic course? I mean in a written context and like those typical language learning courses, which are focussed on discussion and a bit grammar. But the online lessons are totally based on grammar, not discussion or to improve the own language reproduction.

[benjaminpauljohnson]

I struggled a bit with the word faíþarak to begin with. In retrospect I think that the germanic short unstressed vowel deletion rule might have caused this word to have been faíþrak instead, which would make more sense with the weak -ona ending.

[benjaminpauljohnson]

I'd love to create a gothic course, but considering that i have so little time to devote to creating videos, I think that taking on a new project at the moment might derail them entirely. But it's on the back burner...

[VeganUke]

It must be "Hilf mir, ihn zu finden" ;) It is an infinitive-clause.

I really really enjoy your lessons, because I'm also learning gothic. Are studying germanistics? Or why are you this good in this language?

[benjaminpauljohnson]

Since it's a pronoun, you can get away with saying 'Hilf mir ihn finden.' Otherwise you'd have to add a comma and a 'zu' (e.g. Hilf mir, meinen Chupacabra zu finden)... then again, it's been 15 years since I spokeGerman with any sort of regularity, so I could have 'verlernt' that, but that's my understanding.

[VeganUke]

Well, it might be grammatically to say "Hilf mir ihn finden". But really nobody would say this today and most of people would consider it wrong.

Another question: Which dictionary are using for gothic that you have those words. In my online dictionary I cannot find them. So there must be a much better one, please tell me! ^^

And where in the internet could one learn the best the gothic grammar and pronounciation??

[benjaminpauljohnson]

Like I said, watch lesson 3, that explains it. You're not going to find faíþarak, hrugi, or grōnei in any gothic dictionary, though as far as dictionaries go, I use Koebler's for the most part. As for grammar, look for gothic lessons by Slocum & Krause - that's one of the most in-depth grammars I've found, but I disagree with some of their pronunciation. There are also a lot of other good resources out there, those are just my gothic staples.

[benjaminpauljohnson]

As far as pronunciation is concerned, I don't think I've found two that are the same so far. I've studied germanic linguistics for nearly two decades, though, and I cobbled together my own version, which is somewhere between Voyles' and the version presented in Slocum & Krause. Gothic for Goths has a companion website (see my channel page) has a section on pronunciation that should be helpful on whence I derive my pronunciation (especially the ai/au alternations).

[Dechristendom]

mwahahaha chupacabra lol

Great lesson by the way

[MaBu888]

In Estonian we got the loan (???) ja - means and, jah - means yes. Jaa - yes.

We've got Proto-Germanic kuningaz as kuningas, and Norse skild as Estonian silt, Proto-Germanic rauthaz as Estonian raud.

[bertoletti8912]

doesn't kuningas come from baltic languages? I suppose it's got lithuanian origins

[MaBu888]

No. It is indeed Proto-Germanic/Proto-Norse (Pre-Viking 'Norse')