I started out designing webpages using tables and knowing that using tables were bad (from my colleagues and my teacher) got me guilty :(
It's like saying "playing video games as an adult is an unhealthy thing".
I've stopped using tables right after I knew the basics of CSS not because people say using tables are bad but because it's much more efficient to do so. :)
I use divs 95% of the time. But like you were saying though, divs sometimes get annoying when they wrap unexpectedly on different browsers. If they wrap, I usually end up using tables as layout containers. I guess it's because I just don't know css well enough?
I can see what you mean... however, there's a few flaws here, though I won't go through them all.
"The customer will never care what code you're using" - in the case of someone visually impaired using a screen reader, this isn't exactly true.
"Google uses tables" - one of the main reasons tables for non-tabular data is bad is because it's not "Search Engine Optimized"... so unless you can find a way to Google search a Google search (and logically explain why you would), this isn't an issue.
i taught myself how to design using 100% tables. i've always wondered if this was wrong or not. i can't get my head around div tags, and although they make my HTML code nice and clean, it makes my CSS look just as confusing as it would in HTML.. or maybe i'm doing something wrong? i'm just a hobby web designer you see :) ..although i wish i could find the time to become as good as some of the professionals i've seen. thanks for this tutorial! :)
Not the search engines but the usability that you have to think of when using tables. After all tables have a semantic structure which means it will add meaning to the content - undesired meaning that is, since you will be using datastructure for design structure. And DIVs doesn have that problem, since they add no extra mening, and spans neither.
Glad u posted this topic up I was kind of confuse about the whole thing. I was useing tables then once I used div because it was easer to remember. But if I have to use tables I will use it. My last instructor ran into a client that wanted tables she was like crap. I have reference a table page so my instructor says learn them both.
For years I've always wondered if I was designing websites incorrectly or that it was "bad" to design sites using tables. Anyways its not that bad as I taught myself how to design sites using divs but its still good to know that I should not feel guilty in designing sites using tables. Your explanation is a whole lot better than me sitting in a classroom :) Keep up the good work my friend.
I don't like how people over react when it comes to tables. It's almost like they're insecure about how much they know about web design that they have to comment '0mg tablez, rofl'
Good web design is about keeping it simple, tables can help keep it simple, but in rare cases. Liked!
Hi Michael! Nice channel here, nice content and good work u have! About Tables vs Divs, I understand your point, but tables should be used for data, as a good practice. Of course you can think outside of the box and bring some magic - I do understand your point - but for programmers, etc you'll get into problems when scripting. Tables should be avoided...
I think there's still some confusion. Tables are for tabular data. Tables most certainly aren't bad. But using it for something that's not tabular data, is bad. It's EXACTLY like using two line breaks where the paragraph tag was made for that precise reason.
@Eldeeff Tables are like 1970 muscle cars. They're bulky, heavy, but strong. Sometimes you need a strong table to hold things in place.... also, I've been guilty of double break tags. Sometimes you just gotta get the job done even if its not the cleanest. ;)
Hey mike. Great video. I have been thinking about this issue, so i really enjoyed your video. Do you think you can do a video like this on creating html emails, especially from the point of view of using tables, divs and general best practice. That would be awesome. Thanks again.
Thanks, I was one of those that believed that tables were bad. It was that belief that led me to develop techniques that render in most browsers but I'm left with that.
I test my code in Internet Explorer 7, Firefox, Safari, Opera, and Chrome. I still prefer divs but I can't deny the consistent rendering of tables.
The next issue is using too many div's or 'divitis'. Everything becomes an issue and people with experience or not have their opinions. Every designer has to make a choice.
Thanks Mike for doing this vid. Working on my class finals this week and we had to incorporate both TABLES & DIVS, so this is indeed timely. Thanks so much.
I agree that tables are ok to use but still in most cases using tables means more code so using divs in the majority of cases will mean less code which will mean faster load time. Of course as you said the difference won't be noticeable. Personally I always use tables for structuring input forms and data but divs/CSS for everything else.
@jarooFLtutor also would like to add that tables are often used to display data from let's say a Database while divs (used to) on the other hand often used to sectionize layout/content etc. Though it's quite clear that with the new HTML and CSS closing up things will change, and alot of it for better. Using divmadness wont really be needed with the new HTML version wich drives me to my point: Will you remove these kind of outdates vids when languages get updated? Will you post new and updated 1s
@jarooFLtutor My point is that the "tables are bad" movement has been blown out of context. Tables aren't bad, there are just better ways to write clean code. So in many cases, you should use less code when you can. But if there is a moment in your development where you need to use a table, it's ok. Take Google, Bing for instance, they both use tables.
@mlwebco I do use tables myself to for example fetch some data from a db and display it in tables to format, but using tables to fix the page layout is not only 10 times harder than with css but when people with disabilities read your site with a reader it will be a living h***. That's just my opinion, and I can relate to what you write. Obviously it delivers cleaner, but from what I've learned it's just semanticly wrong to use it instead of css, as mentioned above.
@mlwebco from what I know it is wrong semantics to use tables for layout and positioning elements . Sometimes forces you to split images when in reality you could use just one big. Horrible for screen reading apps. These are just a few that came to the top of my head.
Great tutorial, michael. I used tables for my services offered page. And I plan on using it again when I create a local events page, too. The rest of my site is done in CSS. If I'd listened to the guys on the forums, I'd never have created those tables. They even tried to tell me to do it another way. There really wasn't, though. Not for listing services offered in a spreadsheet way.
It's also interesting to see how you work in this tut. I never use Google Chrome or Dreamweaver. Should I?
@onewayit I just right-clicked on the page and there's a Save-As option. Then when you save the page lets say to your desktop, the html file and folder holding all the image is generated. It's a cool way to download pages and learn/study their code.
Wouldn't web designers gain more money by having their sites valid XHTML & CSS? :\
leoyt123 2 months ago
I started out designing webpages using tables and knowing that using tables were bad (from my colleagues and my teacher) got me guilty :(
It's like saying "playing video games as an adult is an unhealthy thing".
I've stopped using tables right after I knew the basics of CSS not because people say using tables are bad but because it's much more efficient to do so. :)
mondeost2202008 2 months ago
I use divs 95% of the time. But like you were saying though, divs sometimes get annoying when they wrap unexpectedly on different browsers. If they wrap, I usually end up using tables as layout containers. I guess it's because I just don't know css well enough?
roofdoubleflip 4 months ago
I can see what you mean... however, there's a few flaws here, though I won't go through them all.
"The customer will never care what code you're using" - in the case of someone visually impaired using a screen reader, this isn't exactly true.
"Google uses tables" - one of the main reasons tables for non-tabular data is bad is because it's not "Search Engine Optimized"... so unless you can find a way to Google search a Google search (and logically explain why you would), this isn't an issue.
jmvc140 4 months ago
i taught myself how to design using 100% tables. i've always wondered if this was wrong or not. i can't get my head around div tags, and although they make my HTML code nice and clean, it makes my CSS look just as confusing as it would in HTML.. or maybe i'm doing something wrong? i'm just a hobby web designer you see :) ..although i wish i could find the time to become as good as some of the professionals i've seen. thanks for this tutorial! :)
chrsmrtn81 5 months ago
Not the search engines but the usability that you have to think of when using tables. After all tables have a semantic structure which means it will add meaning to the content - undesired meaning that is, since you will be using datastructure for design structure. And DIVs doesn have that problem, since they add no extra mening, and spans neither.
MsPwain 6 months ago
Glad u posted this topic up I was kind of confuse about the whole thing. I was useing tables then once I used div because it was easer to remember. But if I have to use tables I will use it. My last instructor ran into a client that wanted tables she was like crap. I have reference a table page so my instructor says learn them both.
EMR80 7 months ago
For years I've always wondered if I was designing websites incorrectly or that it was "bad" to design sites using tables. Anyways its not that bad as I taught myself how to design sites using divs but its still good to know that I should not feel guilty in designing sites using tables. Your explanation is a whole lot better than me sitting in a classroom :) Keep up the good work my friend.
andrewmanswell 7 months ago
I don't like how people over react when it comes to tables. It's almost like they're insecure about how much they know about web design that they have to comment '0mg tablez, rofl'
Good web design is about keeping it simple, tables can help keep it simple, but in rare cases. Liked!
TDMprivateRyan 8 months ago
How have you opened the websites in DW? this would be a really handy trick
davidjsupertramp 8 months ago
How have you opened the websites in DW? this would be a really handy trick
davidjsupertramp 8 months ago
Hi Michael! Nice channel here, nice content and good work u have! About Tables vs Divs, I understand your point, but tables should be used for data, as a good practice. Of course you can think outside of the box and bring some magic - I do understand your point - but for programmers, etc you'll get into problems when scripting. Tables should be avoided...
heldridas 10 months ago
I think there's still some confusion. Tables are for tabular data. Tables most certainly aren't bad. But using it for something that's not tabular data, is bad. It's EXACTLY like using two line breaks where the paragraph tag was made for that precise reason.
Eldeeff 11 months ago
@Eldeeff Tables are like 1970 muscle cars. They're bulky, heavy, but strong. Sometimes you need a strong table to hold things in place.... also, I've been guilty of double break tags. Sometimes you just gotta get the job done even if its not the cleanest. ;)
mlwebco 11 months ago 3
@mlwebco Hahaha great analogy. BTW good work dude. Nice simple steps to help people follow.
Eldeeff 11 months ago
Hey mike. Great video. I have been thinking about this issue, so i really enjoyed your video. Do you think you can do a video like this on creating html emails, especially from the point of view of using tables, divs and general best practice. That would be awesome. Thanks again.
CJTCarter 1 year ago
Tables should only be used to display content, not for layout.
adidas845 1 year ago
@adidas845 exactly!
AussiePolitics 11 months ago
do you have any tips on floating divs? They always confuse me..
MJR5123 1 year ago
I love your banner on your website? what font did you use for it? Thanks man :D
onewayit 1 year ago
Thanks, I was one of those that believed that tables were bad. It was that belief that led me to develop techniques that render in most browsers but I'm left with that.
I test my code in Internet Explorer 7, Firefox, Safari, Opera, and Chrome. I still prefer divs but I can't deny the consistent rendering of tables.
The next issue is using too many div's or 'divitis'. Everything becomes an issue and people with experience or not have their opinions. Every designer has to make a choice.
gravics 1 year ago
Thanks a lot!!
newdesigner1 1 year ago
Awesome! I always had that table thing in my head.
Thanks!
Ernest-
AloneinFiction 1 year ago
Thanks Mike for doing this vid. Working on my class finals this week and we had to incorporate both TABLES & DIVS, so this is indeed timely. Thanks so much.
gladeemarie 1 year ago
I agree that tables are ok to use but still in most cases using tables means more code so using divs in the majority of cases will mean less code which will mean faster load time. Of course as you said the difference won't be noticeable. Personally I always use tables for structuring input forms and data but divs/CSS for everything else.
Conceptskatemedia 1 year ago
I always use tables for my contact forums
enfinite5 1 year ago
Hey we just talked about this yesterday! thanks for making a video
enfinite5 1 year ago
@enfinite5 :) ... yes, we did. I've been meaning to do a video on this for a while. I get asked about this a lot. ;)
mlwebco 1 year ago
@enfinite5 Do you make templates, so when you make one change it updates all your pages?
enfinite5 1 year ago
tables > bad for LAYOUT!
jarooFLtutor 1 year ago
@jarooFLtutor also would like to add that tables are often used to display data from let's say a Database while divs (used to) on the other hand often used to sectionize layout/content etc. Though it's quite clear that with the new HTML and CSS closing up things will change, and alot of it for better. Using divmadness wont really be needed with the new HTML version wich drives me to my point: Will you remove these kind of outdates vids when languages get updated? Will you post new and updated 1s
jarooFLtutor 1 year ago
@jarooFLtutor "outdated", not ment to be insulting :)!
jarooFLtutor 1 year ago
@jarooFLtutor My point is that the "tables are bad" movement has been blown out of context. Tables aren't bad, there are just better ways to write clean code. So in many cases, you should use less code when you can. But if there is a moment in your development where you need to use a table, it's ok. Take Google, Bing for instance, they both use tables.
mlwebco 1 year ago
@mlwebco I do use tables myself to for example fetch some data from a db and display it in tables to format, but using tables to fix the page layout is not only 10 times harder than with css but when people with disabilities read your site with a reader it will be a living h***. That's just my opinion, and I can relate to what you write. Obviously it delivers cleaner, but from what I've learned it's just semanticly wrong to use it instead of css, as mentioned above.
jarooFLtutor 1 year ago
That's all I'm trying to point out :)
jarooFLtutor 1 year ago
@jarooFLtutor Why are Tables bad?
mlwebco 1 year ago
@mlwebco from what I know it is wrong semantics to use tables for layout and positioning elements . Sometimes forces you to split images when in reality you could use just one big. Horrible for screen reading apps. These are just a few that came to the top of my head.
jarooFLtutor 1 year ago
Great video man! Always helpful :)
WebDevTank 1 year ago
Another great video, cheers!
leemoody93 1 year ago
Comment removed
thetechall 1 year ago
Great tutorial, michael. I used tables for my services offered page. And I plan on using it again when I create a local events page, too. The rest of my site is done in CSS. If I'd listened to the guys on the forums, I'd never have created those tables. They even tried to tell me to do it another way. There really wasn't, though. Not for listing services offered in a spreadsheet way.
It's also interesting to see how you work in this tut. I never use Google Chrome or Dreamweaver. Should I?
ShelterDogs 1 year ago
Really cool vid, how were you able to download the google webpage?
onewayit 1 year ago
@onewayit I just right-clicked on the page and there's a Save-As option. Then when you save the page lets say to your desktop, the html file and folder holding all the image is generated. It's a cool way to download pages and learn/study their code.
mlwebco 1 year ago