Ken Wilber is right. You need a representative of liberal democracy, not just democracy (one man one vote) per se. All around the globe religious and ethnic minorities are being persecuted by the majority. The Western media won't report on it. Do your interior development and check out People of Shambhala: peopleofshambhala[dot]com
First they will take your vote as they decide that you have no right to decide for yourself....... Then they will take your balls when they decide that you have no right to breed........ BTW I defend Ken's right to say whatever he likes.
See my comments to the same-channel-video 'Integral "Third-Way" Politics', that is watch?v=Qv7R19xL9Is
I also keep wondering why he wants to make it so complicated because the main problems that could be solved from an integral POV could equally be solved with a simple, intelligent application of the Golden Rule.
Golden rule is too simple and vague. How does the golden rule apply to apportion? the death penalty? War? Think about the life boat example. The golden rule is worthless in that kind of situation. look up "the greatest depth for the greatest span" and ken will explain this point more in depth.
@CandyLeeLong None of the problems you cite would have arisen under the Golden Rule. What life boat ex ? Besides first you'd have to demonstrate what problem his take solves that the golden rule can't. Abortion ? Death penalty ?
@CandyLeeLong Moreover, I am not saying the Golden Rule should not avail itself of more precise methods of knowing - as for instance Spiral Dynamics, in fact the Golden Rule demands that you do (because in being helped you also hope for competence). These means are not Wilber's inventions, however. Everything that is useful so far about his theory is not by him.
But all that doesn't really matter: I meant re 0 - 0:12 - if you would care to listen to it again. In fact Wilber doesn't answer.
@CandyLeeLong The Golden Rule is worthless in regards to questions of war ? WHAT ?
If Wilberianism leads to that amount of confusion, you'd better give it up.
War is waged because there are profits, and statistically men can buy women with their profits and women statistically want successful men. If women obeyed the Golden Rule, they would not choose men by criteria they wouldn't want to be chosen by, and then there'd be no war.
@ThePhilosopherKings I never said "Life is simple". Rather than pointing me to a source of apparently ultimate authority, would you perhaps - rather than working with straw man fallacies -
1. give me a concrete example of a problem that I asked about before where those part of the theory which are distinctly his own (not Spiral Dynamics please) render a solution and the Golden Rule doesn't.
2. point me to a moment during the talk HERE where he actually addresses the question - 0:12.
No, if you want to talk about it I would be glad to discuss it after you watch the video. I am not typing all of this here. We only get like 400 characters to work with. If you want to continue this discussion watch the video. if not that is fine too.
@ThePhilosopherKings If my questions about THIS video cannot be answered without recourse to other videos and then the next and the next, that is a case in point for the usual Wilberian complicating diversion strategy.
As opposed to truly knowledgeable people like Don Beck, for instance (see my comments to his interview). They answer short, direct and to the point and with a clear command of their material.
Long winded rhetoric backdoors are always a sign of a lack of mastery of the subject.
Always and never statements are normally not a sign of mastery but of reductionism and over simplification.
A person can answer simply, but then how much did you learn? If you want an in depth understanding you want a detailed explanation, if you want a surface understanding you want a quick answer.
This is not a video about morality, it's about democracy.
If you want to talk about moral systems you have to go to the video were he talks about moral systems.
Now where did you again turn up with the word "simply" in my words. I said:
"As opposed to truly knowledgeable people like Don Beck, for instance (see my comments to his interview). They answer short, direct and to the point and with a clear command of their material."
Stop disingeniously putting words in my mouth so that your prejudices have a target.
Wilber is sometimes evading questions, and that cannot be defended by saying he is answering "in depth". Else you would have been able to point out to me how he answered 0 - 0:12.
How much did I learn from people mastering their field liek Don Beck ? A lot !
BTW, I also learned a lot from Wilber elsewhere. Why do you get so upset when his megalomania in pontificating in fields he doesn't master (for instance logic is another one) is criticized where it occurs ?
@ThePhilosopherKings The connection to my original point ? Obviously: the complication seems to serve two purposes: 1. he can evade a question he has no answer for without admitting it and simply saying "I don't know" (would seriously reduce interest in this author). 2. he can use any question to reimprint on the listeners the apparently ubiquitous appearance of the (mostly borrowed !) stage theories to make it seem his books are relevant even though he doesn't have a clue.
1. a case of the logical fallacy of a loaded question (I have nothing against Ken Wilber, I have something against dilettantism, I praise him when praise is due).
2. you repeat the false suggestion something is not simple enough for me or that I might be stupid. A clear case of an attempt to insult instead of sticking to arguments. You will pardon that as a mathematician and logician this doesn't impress me much.
@ThePhilosopherKings All in all it seems clear you do not possess the maturity necessary for reasonable dialogue, let alone philosophy. I will not reply to your smear campaign from here on.
Ultimately the problem is that people can't think for themselves, and so we live in an ugly projection from the inside out. I'd like to quote Sathya Sai Baba here: "...one day all countrymen will unite and fight for freedom".
But as buddhists in the Himalayas have started to say openly: "LET GO OF HOPE AND FEAR."
The core of the ideas in this video is valid, but it cannot be implemented. We are supposed to be our governments. We must be empowered by connection to higher self.
And manipulation of free will by taking away the ability to be unconditionally happy and harmonious, disregard for full consciousness, often hatred of full consciousness. This is actually all coming down. All of the systems in their current form will come down, therefore we need to build structures, social holons that are integral/of integrity enough for them not to fall into the mud.
kenny boy, the system is false and rotten to the bone...nothing to fix here...you have to crash it altogether...damn new world order is playing on the stupid minds that should not have the right to vote (not that voting is something for real anyway, that is just another lie)...the world is plastered in lies, it's just one scam after another, in a neverending push towards the enslavement of the mob (which includes everyone outside of the magicians who are holding the world hostage).
I deeply agree, as much as I agree with a great amount of things Wilber says, the world is rotten, the world has cancer, and it is based on manipulation of free will by making people vote. We need a republic, not a democracy, of course democratic principles are good in a republic, but a democracy as such is prone to cancer. It's all an experiment, we have to learn to breathe mindfully. I don't agree with it all crashing, we need disclosure of the classified 5000 PATENTS.
This is prolly the best and most concise (not a common combination) vid of this dilemma I've seen so far. THANK YOU!!! I'm so tired of wading thru all the smarmy ones and the lengthy ones and waiting to find one that lays the whole thing out exhaustively and fast enough to hold attention. I can see Ken's inner "Arrogant Bastard" at play here, and I know that this is only one of his "Voices" not the man himself, but some don't know that. So, I'm just lettin' y'all know. Don't take that too srsly.
New order of the Ages, age of enlightenment, it's a Self healing whole, Unity Consciousness restored, Love and Abundance.......responsibility restored. The Divine plan is unfolding, a) Geo-political world order is an illusion, and b) Consciousness is the ground of all Being -Life is a dream, illusionary formplay. So when our perception changes everything changes.
I don't think Obama is at 'yellow level of development'. I don't think the ones in this video do either. I think Obama is at orange to green. Hating these color labels, BTW.
@1PostPoMoMaN1 What leads you to think he's orange/green? This video was filmed b4 2009. I'd say he's yellow based on several things. First, the wise technocratic choices for members of his cabinet. Second, his restraint in playing up to populist urges. Third, his inclusive approach toward political issues.
It seems the spiral dynamics model indicates who is closer to understanding the true nature of reality. Higher levels are more effective and wiser. Obama seems to encapsulate all of this.
Ken Wilber is right. You need a representative of liberal democracy, not just democracy (one man one vote) per se. All around the globe religious and ethnic minorities are being persecuted by the majority. The Western media won't report on it. Do your interior development and check out People of Shambhala: peopleofshambhala[dot]com
PeopleOfShambhala 1 month ago
They don't want consensus
workingclasssociety 3 months ago
Thank you Ken.
Love, Light and Peace to you.
Namaste.
NewDayDawning2012 8 months ago
First they will take your vote as they decide that you have no right to decide for yourself....... Then they will take your balls when they decide that you have no right to breed........ BTW I defend Ken's right to say whatever he likes.
MrCuntyballs2U 1 year ago
See my comments to the same-channel-video 'Integral "Third-Way" Politics', that is watch?v=Qv7R19xL9Is
I also keep wondering why he wants to make it so complicated because the main problems that could be solved from an integral POV could equally be solved with a simple, intelligent application of the Golden Rule.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna
Golden rule is too simple and vague. How does the golden rule apply to apportion? the death penalty? War? Think about the life boat example. The golden rule is worthless in that kind of situation. look up "the greatest depth for the greatest span" and ken will explain this point more in depth.
CandyLeeLong 1 year ago
@CandyLeeLong None of the problems you cite would have arisen under the Golden Rule. What life boat ex ? Besides first you'd have to demonstrate what problem his take solves that the golden rule can't. Abortion ? Death penalty ?
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@CandyLeeLong Moreover, I am not saying the Golden Rule should not avail itself of more precise methods of knowing - as for instance Spiral Dynamics, in fact the Golden Rule demands that you do (because in being helped you also hope for competence). These means are not Wilber's inventions, however. Everything that is useful so far about his theory is not by him.
But all that doesn't really matter: I meant re 0 - 0:12 - if you would care to listen to it again. In fact Wilber doesn't answer.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@CandyLeeLong The Golden Rule is worthless in regards to questions of war ? WHAT ?
If Wilberianism leads to that amount of confusion, you'd better give it up.
War is waged because there are profits, and statistically men can buy women with their profits and women statistically want successful men. If women obeyed the Golden Rule, they would not choose men by criteria they wouldn't want to be chosen by, and then there'd be no war.
Google
Warren Farrell "Myth of Male Power" excerpts
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna
if you think life is simple and you can have such an easy simple moral code with easy simple answers you should give up.
What about WWII? Are there no reasons to go to war?
look up that vid on "the greatest depth for the greatest span"
Listen to the video and he will explain why the golden rule is too simple. If you want to argue about it more just comment of those videos.
ThePhilosopherKings 1 year ago
Comment removed
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@ThePhilosopherKings I never said "Life is simple". Rather than pointing me to a source of apparently ultimate authority, would you perhaps - rather than working with straw man fallacies -
1. give me a concrete example of a problem that I asked about before where those part of the theory which are distinctly his own (not Spiral Dynamics please) render a solution and the Golden Rule doesn't.
2. point me to a moment during the talk HERE where he actually addresses the question - 0:12.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna
No, if you want to talk about it I would be glad to discuss it after you watch the video. I am not typing all of this here. We only get like 400 characters to work with. If you want to continue this discussion watch the video. if not that is fine too.
ThePhilosopherKings 1 year ago
@ThePhilosopherKings If my questions about THIS video cannot be answered without recourse to other videos and then the next and the next, that is a case in point for the usual Wilberian complicating diversion strategy.
As opposed to truly knowledgeable people like Don Beck, for instance (see my comments to his interview). They answer short, direct and to the point and with a clear command of their material.
Long winded rhetoric backdoors are always a sign of a lack of mastery of the subject.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna
Always and never statements are normally not a sign of mastery but of reductionism and over simplification.
A person can answer simply, but then how much did you learn? If you want an in depth understanding you want a detailed explanation, if you want a surface understanding you want a quick answer.
This is not a video about morality, it's about democracy.
If you want to talk about moral systems you have to go to the video were he talks about moral systems.
ThePhilosopherKings 1 year ago
@ThePhilosopherKings You are well trained in the same diversion game.
Now where did you again turn up with the word "simply" in my words. I said:
"As opposed to truly knowledgeable people like Don Beck, for instance (see my comments to his interview). They answer short, direct and to the point and with a clear command of their material."
Stop disingeniously putting words in my mouth so that your prejudices have a target.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@ThePhilosopherKings
Wilber is sometimes evading questions, and that cannot be defended by saying he is answering "in depth". Else you would have been able to point out to me how he answered 0 - 0:12.
How much did I learn from people mastering their field liek Don Beck ? A lot !
BTW, I also learned a lot from Wilber elsewhere. Why do you get so upset when his megalomania in pontificating in fields he doesn't master (for instance logic is another one) is criticized where it occurs ?
GoldenCow
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna
How is it he didn't answer the question and what does any of this have to do with your original point? You just keep moving the goal post.
What is it you have against ken Wilber?
His Ideas are not simple enough for you?
Maybe you can get a copy of that picture book he talks about . :)
ThePhilosopherKings 1 year ago
@ThePhilosopherKings The connection to my original point ? Obviously: the complication seems to serve two purposes: 1. he can evade a question he has no answer for without admitting it and simply saying "I don't know" (would seriously reduce interest in this author). 2. he can use any question to reimprint on the listeners the apparently ubiquitous appearance of the (mostly borrowed !) stage theories to make it seem his books are relevant even though he doesn't have a clue.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@ThePhilosopherKings As to the rest of your comments, they are
1. a case of the logical fallacy of a loaded question (I have nothing against Ken Wilber, I have something against dilettantism, I praise him when praise is due).
2. you repeat the false suggestion something is not simple enough for me or that I might be stupid. A clear case of an attempt to insult instead of sticking to arguments. You will pardon that as a mathematician and logician this doesn't impress me much.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
Comment removed
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ThePhilosopherKings All in all it seems clear you do not possess the maturity necessary for reasonable dialogue, let alone philosophy. I will not reply to your smear campaign from here on.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@ThePhilosopherKings And the question re war I have given you a few pointers already. Please read before responding with empty rhetorics.
Better still, read Farrell and other well-researched sociological studies Wilber is apparently unaware of.
It's easy to always portray one's superficial ideology as the solution while being blissfully ignorant of the actual causes of problems.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
Ken is a NEW AGE SWAMI! Christians BEWARE! If you are a Christian, you need to seriously stay away from this man's teachings.
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
@ 3.38: 'Repellant TO SOME DEGREE'? This is pretentious shite.
Guedingen 1 year ago
Ultimately the problem is that people can't think for themselves, and so we live in an ugly projection from the inside out. I'd like to quote Sathya Sai Baba here: "...one day all countrymen will unite and fight for freedom".
biocybernaut 1 year ago
@biocybernaut
The situation does look hopeless.
But as buddhists in the Himalayas have started to say openly: "LET GO OF HOPE AND FEAR."
The core of the ideas in this video is valid, but it cannot be implemented. We are supposed to be our governments. We must be empowered by connection to higher self.
1PostPoMoMaN1 1 year ago
@biocybernaut
And manipulation of free will by taking away the ability to be unconditionally happy and harmonious, disregard for full consciousness, often hatred of full consciousness. This is actually all coming down. All of the systems in their current form will come down, therefore we need to build structures, social holons that are integral/of integrity enough for them not to fall into the mud.
1PostPoMoMaN1 1 year ago
kenny boy, the system is false and rotten to the bone...nothing to fix here...you have to crash it altogether...damn new world order is playing on the stupid minds that should not have the right to vote (not that voting is something for real anyway, that is just another lie)...the world is plastered in lies, it's just one scam after another, in a neverending push towards the enslavement of the mob (which includes everyone outside of the magicians who are holding the world hostage).
biocybernaut 1 year ago
@biocybernaut
I deeply agree, as much as I agree with a great amount of things Wilber says, the world is rotten, the world has cancer, and it is based on manipulation of free will by making people vote. We need a republic, not a democracy, of course democratic principles are good in a republic, but a democracy as such is prone to cancer. It's all an experiment, we have to learn to breathe mindfully. I don't agree with it all crashing, we need disclosure of the classified 5000 PATENTS.
1PostPoMoMaN1 1 year ago
i think you should put that sexy new "Integral Life" title sequence as an intro, not just an outro :)
lezlieprapra 1 year ago
This is prolly the best and most concise (not a common combination) vid of this dilemma I've seen so far. THANK YOU!!! I'm so tired of wading thru all the smarmy ones and the lengthy ones and waiting to find one that lays the whole thing out exhaustively and fast enough to hold attention. I can see Ken's inner "Arrogant Bastard" at play here, and I know that this is only one of his "Voices" not the man himself, but some don't know that. So, I'm just lettin' y'all know. Don't take that too srsly.
L00kng 1 year ago 2
New order of the Ages, age of enlightenment, it's a Self healing whole, Unity Consciousness restored, Love and Abundance.......responsibility restored. The Divine plan is unfolding, a) Geo-political world order is an illusion, and b) Consciousness is the ground of all Being -Life is a dream, illusionary formplay. So when our perception changes everything changes.
outoftheboxinsight 1 year ago
has anyone mentioned the nwo to ken?
heal2012 1 year ago
do you think obama is at the yellow stage of development?
Humjob 1 year ago
@Humjob
I don't think Obama is at 'yellow level of development'. I don't think the ones in this video do either. I think Obama is at orange to green. Hating these color labels, BTW.
1PostPoMoMaN1 1 year ago
@1PostPoMoMaN1 What leads you to think he's orange/green? This video was filmed b4 2009. I'd say he's yellow based on several things. First, the wise technocratic choices for members of his cabinet. Second, his restraint in playing up to populist urges. Third, his inclusive approach toward political issues.
It seems the spiral dynamics model indicates who is closer to understanding the true nature of reality. Higher levels are more effective and wiser. Obama seems to encapsulate all of this.
Humjob 1 year ago
@Humjob
In that way, I agree.
He's smart but perhaps not knowledgable of truth about ETs and undisclosed technologies, other such things, not much anway.
1PostPoMoMaN1 1 year ago