Tung Yingchieh (1898-1961)

[thinyin]

if you study taiji for the benefit of health you will gain some, however if you practice taiji until you are proficient in combat you will be fantastically more healthy.

[thinyin]

i studied tung style taiji. i know their slow and fast set. tung style is more physical than other yang styles hence the "slouch" it focuses more on push hands and they have a bagua circle walking excercise using tuck the gown and part the wild horse's mane. it is a very robust style and as much of a workout on the legs as any martial art. the legs are the most important part of your physique to condition for health benefits.

[2jgard]

Many that have learned Bagua learned Xing Yi as well, and the reverse is also true. I believe that this GM incorporated the other two major internal styles into his Tai Chi form, similar to what Sun LuTang did. This may explain why it looks somewhat different.

[2jgard]

Not much is said about the longevity of Jeet Kune Do practitioners. Although the founder, Bruce Lee, died at a young age as an adult, many of his students are still actively practicing and teaching what they've learned from him. I am fascinated by the internal arts. Whether one practices fast or slow, I believe that no one truly knows how much speed is needed in any given self-defense situation beforehand.

[taijispirit1]

Many ask questions as to why so different from master to master.

In Taijiquan as in writing there are principles. We learn how to write correctly the ABC's, but when it comes to signing your name, everyone has there own signature. Some are better than others and more legible, while other signatures turn in to scribble and hardly legible. The key to Taijiquan are the principles, not so much the form, yes form is important, but principles are vital.

Master Tung Ying Chieh shows correct principles.

[pribadi8406]

GM Tung died at age 63? Nowadays, 63 still consider young. Lots of viewers noted that the spinal has to remain straight if ones plays Yang style or Tung's, but the way this GM performed , totally contradict that principle. Is that true? But his kick "dengjiao" still solid and strong. 63 y.o. and already had lordosis. Such was a condition back then. Nobody cared enough to see Chiropractor,eh....

[Gieszkanne]

@pribadi8406

Yang Chengfu only gets 52 and Yang Banhou 55 ! The most Masters also Chen or Wu Style hardly get older than 70. While there are a lot of Weijia Masters in there 90ies with a better shape. That Taiji making old is a myth but maybe all famous styles are not the real taiji of the legends ? Who knows. Fact is that there are a lot of masters with good neijia skills and also those who practice with rounded back leaning forward. You wont get THE answer just yours ;)

[Bangled]

@Gieszkanne The longevity of Tai-Chi masters is small when compared to other martial artists. I read in a book, think it was "Tai Chi's Ancestors", that internal arts relax the body and open meridians but dissipate the energy. While external arts may obstruct the flow of energy but concentrate energy.

[Gieszkanne]

@Bangled

Thanks interesting information. I think there is danger to dissipate energy but there are also internal masters who get old and external who dont. The system itself never can give you certainty to do the right thing.

[AWESOME90002]

Tai chi is bollocks.

[tai2007chi]

He has a slouching posture.

[xxgmpxx]

I love this video!

[pillsburydoughboy47]

why is a full performance of the Yang style of Tai Chi so ridiculously difficult to find!?

I'm so pissed off, I'm gonna go do Tai Chi now.

[imagino]

Some time ago I fount here on youtube full videos of the long yang style form executed by Yang Zheng Duo and Yang Jun. Search for it! :)

[osamabinsmokin]

why dont they show the video at normal speed, is it like this to show the moves easier?

[jekylfoot]

That is normal speed.... you can tell because @1:15 the bystander walks out of the view of the camera, and he seems to be moving at "normal" speed...

Plus, .........this stuff is practiced slow.....

[osamabinsmokin]

i dont believe you

[jekylfoot]

Why? "tai chi" is practiced slowly......

[internalarts2]

one reason is to be able to pay very close attention to refining body structure, the better a stucture the more force one can take in and issue out.

[drzeusgr]

It's normal speed - in fact, you will find plenty slower!

[osamabinsmokin]

If it was any slower he would not be moving, how can he defend himself?

[internalarts2]

find a decent tai chi practitioner and ask them to show you how....

[Lorax505]

this is called the slow form or slow set, there is a faster form to this tai chi, the slow is just for developing precision and relaxation, thats why it's slow.

[johanniels]

@osamabinsmokin So if he does a movement in a controlled manner he cannot also do it in a fast way?

The low speed is to build precision - as when you play an instrument, the best way to attain precise movements is by playing the sequence you whish to learn in a controlled manner; then you wont make any mistakes. If you try to attain full speed from the beginning, the probability of error is greater.

Tai chi applied in combat would be full speed, the form is slow to ensure control.

[osamabinsmokin]

@johanniels so how come I cant find any videos of tai chi at full 'fighting speed'?

[johanniels]

@osamabinsmokin I haven't been able to find any tai chi practitioners in actual fights on video either, sadly - but to show how you apply tai chi at speed this is not necessarily the only way. many videos are on youtube with "tai chi applications" - the traditional way of adapting the movements of the form to different attacks and situations. These show how tai chi can be used effectively. Some are here:

watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk&feature=re­lated

be sure to watch it to the end

[johanniels]

@osamabinsmokin And, as mentioned by others, there are also many fast tai chi forms. And if you are interested in understanding how it i possible to use tai chi as a practical combat system, there are many more videos showing applications (some of them probably better than the one i wrote you), and though they do not show actual combat, they can be used to understand how the movements can be utilised in combat.

I'll have to agree with you that many practitioners have no clue about combat though

[johanniels]

@osamabinsmokin And, finally, this video /watch?v=kf44kawWBvY&feature=r­elated  , even though it is a bit commercialized, shows a guy who actually uses the concepts and movements of tai chi as a very potent self defence system, and the movements are shown at speed in the video. Again, be sure to watch it all.

I promise this is the last part of my answer :P

[osamabinsmokin]

@johanniels ok you seem like a nice person, here's the truth, my comment was 'trolling' I know the speed was slowed down, it just got to me how anal some of the tai chi followers were, anyway 20 years ago I saw this guy on TV, watch?v=N0qlQ9w0gcw have a look and let me know what you think, for me this is what chi really is about. Fighting is for fools...unless there is no choice, first rule of tai chi martial arts is "run away" only fight when cornered...ciao

[nanhuazhenren]

Tell that to the imperial bodyguards of the 19th century ;)

Not to sure if they ever ran away^^

[imagino]

Actually it's normal speed for a Taijiquan Yang style form.

[Radzz12]

I would be interested in any comments regarding the health attributes of this style of Taiji. Both Tung Ying Chieh and his son seem to have died at a relativley low age...? Maybe it is the form of Taiji that is at fault or maybe it is a question of DNA...? Still what ever the reason it seems a little strange that so many people get hooked on the health aspects of Taiji or at least this style of it, when the very people that they learn from seem to be somewhat less than good examples!?

[hyoung888888]

I read Tung's teacher died from a cold or virus because of his visit to Hong Kong.

Let's ask his daughter, and grandchildren how Tung Ying Chieh died.

[MasOlai]

I think the many healhtbenefits of tai chi is often misunderstood. All kinds of moderate activity has its healthbenefits. I think there is no proof that tai chi make ones life any longer compared to for example other ways of martial arts. But its softness and smoothness on the joints and muscles makes it an art that can be practice fully throughout ones life.

[MasOlai]

To aim for quality in life and not quantity.

So the best one can hope for, is to get to the point where it is the moment that matters. Then its real tai chi that is in practice.

[nelsonrn]

Interesting. Not so very different from the Yang form I've learned from a handful of teachers.

[nelsonrn]

Hmmm.... first (1950) video is parts 1 (but with a chunk missing) and 2. Second (1945) video recapitulates part 2.

[loqki1244]

palidhje

[benjimatt]

Tung Ying-Chieh was the teaching assistant of Yang Cheng-Fu. He is performing the second section of the Yang Long Form. Also I disagree with the "about this" video he is one of the only people to pass on the true yang cheng-fu long form, not the Tung form. As of now his student Chun Tin, (may be spelled incorrectly) is still teaching traditional Yang Long form in Hong Kong.

[Loyaute]

People who reach a high level outside of the families eventually have their own schools. Tung (Dong), Fu, even Chen Man-ch'ing for Yang Chengfu. People who reach a high level in the original families can teach very different forms, but they are subsumed into whatever original style.

Modern Chen, Yang, Wu look very different now than 150 years ago.

[Aetherus7]

From what I have seen, most Grandmasters are pretty much expected to present their own "flavor" or even put together their own arrangement before becoming a Grandmaster. It makes sense, the principles are there, but the arrangement is fresh and as with all things, there should be some evolution.

[Loyaute]

Yes, that is true. From what I was told they are expected to. I have seen different forms from brother and sister, Eddie Wu Kuangyu and Cynthia Wu Xiaofeng, the same generation and the same teachers, yet their forms weren't identical.

What matters is if the technical requirements are present, peng, lu, ji an, etc. expressed smoothly and continuously.

[Loyaute]

For good examples of this, look up the Youtube videos of Wu Yinghua, Hao Shaoru, Sun Jianyun and the Yang brothers Zhenji and Zhenduo for a few more examples. Very different, yet each highly accomplished.

[Aetherus7]

I am in agreement, I have and continue to study under very well respected masters of the same lineage, all of them with their own "style." I was told that this is the way, and to me it makes sense. Just as you pointed out, it's also what I was told. Things should always evolve, as long as the principles remain.

[Loyaute]

All Taijiquan masters do create their own style, even within the orthodox families.

Yang Chengfu wasn't the same as Yang Shaohao, which was "real" Yang style? Shaohao was the older brother, after all. Chengfu had more students, though. Shaohao's lineage is still going in China, but it is still Yang style even if it is different.

[Aetherus7]

I practice a Yang Shouhao lineage. Professor Huo Chi Kwang and Grandmaster Lu Hung Ping taught it in the U.S.

[Loyaute]

Yang Shaohou also taught Wu Gongyi and Wu Gongzao, the sons of Wu Jianquan, when they were young. Yang Shaohou is held in very high regard by Wu stylists of their lineage. The tradition is that Shaohou was very much like his uncle, Yang Banhou, in temperament.

[wusuwusu]

so what is the point of this? why create this when it retains 99% of yang style? what if all taiji folks create their own style, and 99% of it follows the original.

[Ryooken]

It's a matter of personalization.  Many instructors take what they do well and make a form out of it. They do this to practice and hone their best moves and skills. After a while this is all they practice and in some cases this is what they pass on to their top students.

[Aetherus7]

it's his interpretation, everything evolves. we learn a music scale and principles, but create our own music, right?

[JianChuanTaiChi]

Hes a well known disciple of Yang Cheng Fu right?

[pranayama72]

the third!

[drdankness]

no thats second section with the three kicks in a row and the punch to groin brush knees

[pranayama72]

That's the second part of the yang set. We want to see the first and the second!

[littlecannon]

Nice video.... there's hardly any difference betweeen his slow set and that of Chengfu's... or is he performing the Yang set here?

[moclark]

He's sculpting a 'space' with the 'measures' of his body, no?