Buddhagem Speaks with Noam Chomsky on May Day, 2009 (3/4)

[fede2]

i read some of rand's work. it's actually quite impressive. although i'm more of a chomsky man, i got plenty out of her work. she has a comittment to rationality that is admiralbe. i'm a philosophy student and i see holes all over the place in her's but i agree with her fundamental premises when it comes to ethics. i do think, ultimately, though, individualism is reconciliable with social anarchism or libertarian socialism.

she sets the bar pretty high for intellectual integray, i'd say.

[willwkrueger]

the reason why Americans don't take to the streets is because they're all in debt

[Tuppington]

That used to be a reason to protest, back in the day. Shays' Rebellion for example, was poor American farmers protesting debt. It was crushed by a private militia, ironically, to prevent "a state of anarchy."

[peterfdrucker]

Ayn Rand is required reading in some high schools!? Wow.

[7jerryv7]

@3:50

I would add something to this statement. Americans seek material gain at all costs. Then, as Christians, we are supposed to give to charities to help the starving widows and orphans. This allows us to be both selfish (to create wealth) and selfless (to allocate our new wealth more efficiently than government), at the same time. Thus, we can violate ethics but be ethical. The illusion makes us feel good and able to sleep at night - but not the hungry child or widow withiout food.

[catgumart]

dont forget the men & women who arent widows or children,who have hard luck, or social difficulties,or are outside the bell curve of what is considered normal at the time, who have ethical grounds for not wanting to participate or who have drug dependencies or low self esteem that can never boosted or who have been black mailed, blacklisted, shunned, these are people too and they deserve mercy and freedom, the children are very important but someday they will go through puberty then what!?

[KentAllard]

AFL-CIO had the Projectionist Union boycot Salt of the Earth

[KentAllard]

South Americans are the militant ones, look at the Water War in Bolivia or the Recovered Factories in Argentina

[catgumart]

There are many adults who have a hard time fitting into society and need help and support, education, and resources and tools for self cultivation, health care, advocacy and protection from criminal element, safe clean quality housing, perhaps some non authoritarian council for encouragement,support and direction..people who need help aren't always "elderly widows" we have to open our hearts to realize that there are a lot of people who need help who we may look down upon or see as flawed...

[silverbackman]

I guess if the government spent less time on prisons and other conservative bullshit and more money on health care, education, ect.....I think people would trust it more. I certainly don't trust government, I do agree with Chomsky that big business can be just as worse but I'de say they are all equal levels that should be abolished.

[catgumart]

business and government are enmeshed. They are both run by human beings,it is not a separate entity,they are constructs of humanity,if business and government is fair and consideration is given for all areas of life and types of people then business and government are simply vehicles of organization and exchange, but since wealth and power get so out of balance, people are marginalized and exploited while others in there own self interest overlook this, or forget how things are inter-related.

[catgumart]

When I say "they are not a separate entity" I mean they are not separate entities from humanity, they are comprised of us people, I did not mean that the government and business are totally one, but maybe there is some truth to the business and government being one entity or continuum of power.

[silverbackman]

Well in a sense the reason why big business is so out of control is due to government.....big businesses get special privileges that even individual human beings don't have. It's not so much about businesses itself......even in an ideal libertarian socialist society there will be room for a free market as long as exploitation and the capitalist class is eliminated. States too are ultimately illegitimate entities, though I suppose we should make them work for us if they are to exist.

[catgumart]

I'd like to pose one question...What is "legitimate and what is "illegitimate" and who is the judge? Isn't anything that is a construct of humans able to be legitimized or illegitimized ? A mountain is totally "legit"...but things designated by humans like arbitrary borders, or systems of government isn't it subjective...What makes something legitimate or illegitimate?

[lordennis01]

That is a matter of personal judgement I think, however since the enlightenment there have been a set of elementary moral principles that have been set, namely those of individuality and freedom from coercion. Back then it was things like Monarchy and the Church that they apposed as being illegitimate, now, I believe Chomsky is right on this (though he didn't make it up), they are the Business and corporate entities.

[TheMaineShag]

what is the basics of ayn rand philosophy? her name keeps popping up never heard of her.

[KruZer7]

Google: Objectivism

[lordennis01]

She's listed on Alan Greenspan's top role models, along with Adam Smith and Paul Vocker. If you get the idea of what the others generally advocated, you'll get the picture.

[sundrifts]

Adam Smith and Ayn Rand couldn't be more different. Smith is, quite obviously, pre-capitalist.

[lordennis01]

You are very right, but there are striking similarities with their moral philosophy, namely that of individuality. I have not read much of Ayn Rand, so I hesitate to comment more.

[KentAllard]

rationalised psychopathy

[silverbackman]

Ayn Rand is a major figure in libertarian capitalism. While I agree with her on social issues pertaining to individual freedom, in essence she was a big business fascist that believed that big business is a repressed minority. She has some interesting work but she makes the same mistake american libertarians do.....thinking that corporations are the ideal of "hero worship"...lol.

[likeaslowburn]

the Ayn Rand philosophy scares me

[lGnossos]

I thought it was just stupid kids trying to sound smart until I went to the Ayn Rand Institute website. Now THAT is scary lol Wacko shit like "Evil activists trying to make insurance companies give people coverage when they have pre-existing conditions" and "violent eco-terrorists harrass peaceful businessmen" lol..so far right it's hard to fathom.

[likeaslowburn]

"Evil activists trying to make insurance companies give people coverage when they have pre-existing conditions" lol - the whole ideology its much too cold and ruthless. surely we need less selfishness, and less corporate power and not more. i think that ayn rang was crazy!

[KentAllard]

nothing about "violent corporate-mercenaries killing Nigerian organisers"?

[7jerryv7]

After being laid off my unemployment benefits ended. COBRA would have costed me..$617 a month. This is housing for some people. However, the government stimulus package includes paying 65% of health benefits for 9 months. The WHOLE of the system is broke beyond belief. I mean broken to the very core.

[colibri1]

That bit about the Ayn Rand/Objectivist Foundation propaganda forming the curricula in US schools right now is alarming. That's really horrible and makes the future here seem even bleaker than it already does.

[alovelytime]

very fucking true man.