Thank you for posting this, though I've never personally had an encounter with the group...I do have an interest in cult mentality. This organization, beneath its facade is nothing more than a greedy corporation interested in exploiting the emotional dependency of others. Free will is one of the greatest gifts we humans have, without it we cease to be individuals.
I did the Forum in about 1991. Months later, because two friends told me how great the course was, I did the (now defunct) Six Day course. I did exactly one seminar. I haven't had anything to do with LE since at least 1992. My point is that I was never psychologically dependent on LE, nor did I ever give them a single penny that I didn't want to give them. And yup, I was euphoric at the end of both courses. Continuing in their courses costs money. Yes. But so what?
I have been in the SELP course, which is the last part of the curriculum for living and withdrawn from it. I realised the heavy selling was getting to me and also recognises my dependency was forming in earnest. Anyway, I have now walked away but am feeling very miserable. What can you advise me in order to feel less down about being away from it and trying to get my own answers in life. Would appreciate anything. Your videos have been great for me so keep up the good work! ;) Alan
Cults take you away from your family. Landmark forum brings you closer. It is not religious at all. This is not psychological at all. This is his opinion. It is not hypnosis. You may be afraid, and this leaves you in action to act in the face of your fears..It's not euphoria, it's ever expanding yourself. There is a free 10-week seminar series that allows you to practice the views in your every day life. It's always your choice; there's never any pressure.
Wish I had seen your video before I became involved. You articulated very eloquently what I was feeling when I finally "escaped" from this cult. Thank you for sharing, and for doing your part to raise awareness.
The Forum has impacted you in ways you dont know that you dont even know. Whatever thoughts and descriptions of such impacts are different among all of us. Nevertheless, the choice of your notions about the Forum will continue at causing of such impacts as you think, read, write, Google and YouTube of this topic. Consider your life has been altered in ways, which whatever they might be, by your choice about your notions of the Forum, not by whatever the reality of the Landmark Forum really is.
It was certainly an intense experience, but never have thought of it as cultlike.
We apply the concepts to help work through family and work issues, but don't get too wrapped up in it.
It's actually being in the Forum that's tough for many. I can see where some people really get freaked out - a core concept is taking complete responsibility for everything that's happened to you in your life - ie - everything is a choice.
@doogadoogie I agree that there is some strategies for living that can be carried away and applied effectively to one's life. However the notion of no one being a victim, is something I can't buy in to. I think the best example of this is that the man who founded Landmark Werner Erhard once told a Holocaust survivor that she was responsible for what had happened to her. Can't buy that.
@bradbavarde - Agreed. Only after my Forum did I learn of it's history (EST) and cases of abuse, none of which occurred in our session. The syllabus is on their website, and I have to say that, for us, the material is pragmatic in its concept and application.
Unfortunate that it's founder and others have abused the privilege...
@doogadoogie Yes, the boundries are a bit blurry between what is healthy self improvement and what could be considered abuse. In the case of you and your wife, your strength of character and intelligence obviously enabled you to distill a healthy strategy for living from the experience. My concern remains for those who are more vulnerable to the darker side such manipulation can bring through the methods that are used in the forum. I appreciate your comments, however.
I think ANY organization - religious, business, political, etc., can and does manipulate vulnerable people. I'm Catholic and look at the abuse they've inflicted on people for centuries. Oprah has Andrew Young on and he certainly fell for the Cult of John Edwards, as did many of his supporters. As for weathering the pressure of more classes, we used what we learned in the Forum to fend them off:
(1) you only need the Forum to be complete with their entire program; we choose NOT to enroll.
I am in the middle of this xxxxhole as I was forced by someone BIGGER than me in organization. I am 24 hours aware of this. Thank you for sharing! This world is so weak......But luckily I am strong enough.
Landmark has taken my dad and little brother. They have both told me to join (very pushy I might add) and said if I do not have the money that I should do anything t get the money to join even if I had to steal it.
If you are heavily involved in LM and there is a bell ringing in your head, that there is something wrong, trust your inner self, It is trying to save you. Gather all your energy, fight all the resistance, Leave the premises ASAP, and save your soul.
Yup, I had the misfortune of watching one of their recruiters go after an impecunious and, sadly, unattractive woman - berated her about her life being a mess and told her "you can't afford NOT to take this!"
Thanks for the info. A friend is trying to get me interested in this Landmark stuff so I've been doing some research. He's about to take the seminar and give them a bunch of money he can't afford. I hope to dissuade him but they seem to have the hooks in pretty deep.
I've always wondered what is wrong with people that compels them to go to something like the Landmark forum. I had a girlfriend attend the Forum and she tried to recruit me, but after going to the intro I realized that it was a money making brainwashing exercise. The thing about brainwashing is that yes, if you have a bad life or are very confused, being brainwashed can make it seem like life is much better. However your ife really is no better, you have just been fooled into thinking it is.
I went to the forum and then watch all forum in youtube before and after.
If you read all these comments and contents about the forum on both sides of the argumeent, I have noticed that attendees have one thing in common after the course: we realize that now we are better than the rest, smart than the rest. We are compelled and committed to make sure the world know and agree with us.
Hmmm... is this meanful and meaning?
I am doing the exact same thing as I am typing this comment.
Went to the forum years ago and came out of it with some useful philosophical things but definitely not something I wanted anything else to do with. The people who worked for them were very strange in their whole demeanor. From someone I know who was (at one time) intensely involved with them, many of their members live "alternative" lifestyles, as their philosophies lead one to believe in moral relativism. That an everything was ultimately all about money and going to the next course.
onemindonespirit, sounds like you handled Landmark the right way. You went to the forum, got some use out of it and got the hell out. In other words, you used them and didn't let them use you. That's the way to do it.
Is Landmark a cult? Some say it is, some say it isn't. But when I'm not sure of something I always defer to the experts in their respective fields. Having said that, practically every cult information service worldwide lists Landmark as a cult. The one in New Zealand describes Landmark as a 'dangerous' cult. See for yourself - these services all have websites.
Thank goodness for Google - after all, knowledge is power!!
Those who are thinking about attending an introductory meeting then do the one meeting then wait one month before going further with their program. Think it over long and hard.
I worked for LE headquarters in Frisco. It was the worst work experience I have ever been through in my entire career. My immediate coworkers were deceitful and krappy to me. I later found out why. I got the job they wanted one of their friend to have. So to get rid of me they continuously set me up to look bad. Their friend was eventually hired in to replace me.
LE staff members are shitty krappy people. Go puke and die.
I attended a welcome dinner and succumbed to the high pressure sell. They got my $300+, I made a date to go and everything. But I was suspicious; so I researched "Landmark Forum, cult" on YouTube and found you. My suspicions were confirmed. I never attended the Forum. They kept my money, I kept my individuality. Thanks for taking a stand.
To their healthy friends and family members, the zealot may appear to have been brainwashed. Their enthusiasm seems unnatural and disproportionate. If they were unbalanced before taking the program, they may appear to have gone beyond "breakthrough" into "breakdown."
All I can say is THANKYOU. You and people like you have helped save my life from Landmark. I was registered into the leadership program when I realised it was a cult . I have since cancelled that and I feel like Im still trapped in a way. You couldn't have been more right about a wolf in sheeps clothing!
keep wasting those precious $350 dollars on prescious baseball cards, south park dvds, celine dion concerts and porn. 350 dollars that land mark is trying to pry from your hands at any cost possible so that the organization can start a new world order were everyone is a mindless robot so that landmark can acquire members with such advanced intelect as yoursjeeejeee what a joke (of course you are not going to post this commet)
Very thoughtful comment. It proves to me the true nature and depth of Landmark Graduates with their new found "technology". I find that most are only interested in get rich quick schemes usually involving internet marketing. Your monetary worth does not impress me, I am impressed with what is in people's hearts. Based on what you have written, it doesn't seem Landmark has gotten you very far. - sad
i`m busy making a better life for myself and not trying to play smart by putting down concepts and notions that work wonders for people and to worry about my spelling on a comment for a video a middle aged lonelly frustrated man made
now i`m worth over a 1-4 mill and laugh at self rightious idiots like you who inevitably are so correct about their vision of the world that they need no other point of view or realisation ...i don`t really care about the landmark brand or product as it may be but i can tell you that it information and technology you get from it does wonders for people and honestly i don`t really care if you or any body does the courses i got mine if you don`t get yours be it mean while...
@koito22 So Landmark taught you how to be an asshole and run around the internet putting down people who make less money than you...wow how enlightened and compasionate you are....not.
You are not rambling... this is a fucking cult fuck you culties giving this rational activist a hard time you fucking culties shut the fuck up moron followers. you guys are so fucked in the head.
I just finished the Landmark Advanced course and yet again I feel I got nothing out of it. I really had to stick by my decision not to enroll in the next program. In my opinion, I feel like my own emotions have been used against me as a way to get me to stay all three days and sign up in the next course.
You need to talk to some of my friends who joined. They say they never met anyone that got nothing out of Landmark. I'm like seriously man, that's like going to a LA Lakers game while everyone is wearing plain clothes and asking where's the Boston Celtics fans at???
Correct, you are rambling. In my experience, both in doing the Landmark Forum and graduate courses, and in observing hundreds of people that have, the results are about 95% positive. I myself got out of a very bad slump of being unemployed, and into a very lucrative contract, which lasted for many years. This was worth over $500K to me; should I feel put out because I paid $375 for that? This comes to about $4.70 per hour. "Financially and psychologically exploited"? Don't think so.
Yes, this is a typical Landmark justification for the expense (along with psychotherapy costs a lot more). The problem is that some people may not be able to afford the training, but feel compelled to continue after the high pressure, guilt associated sales techniques. Also the expense in volunteer time required takes people away from family and friends who are not part of their new "results" out of life program.
Also, I have noticed that some Landmarkians who are most supportive of the program go on to create all sorts of Internet marketing schemes or get into the loan market. This makes me question if the only thing that drives them is the quest for the almighty dollar rather than helping other people through Landmark.
Continues on my previous point. I still recommend people to attend Landmark workshop. But I also ask them to beware of the battle will happen in your heart. You can end up be a man with shining eyes like Ben Zander. Or you can end up to become one of the Landmark robot.
Well. I agree with you a lot. The things in this just won't be perfect anyway. Just like Ing and Yong. Landmark have the most beautiful and insightful frameworks I had ever experience in my life. On the other hand, they also have the most dirty marketing shit all around the class. I got more insight after I attend the advance course. Landmark guys have to face the fact that 70% of the registration conversation is based on survival. I know this is hard because we are human.
I was in the Forum with you. I found it beneficial as a TOOL - it did help me uncover some things, and I learned a great deal. I did find it hypocritical there was all the instruction about "being your word" but then was second guessed repeatedly when I said I was unable to attend the Graduate course.
Well, it's almost been a year since I sat in that room, and I guess you can say that it has had an impact on me as I hear from people all the time about their various experiences. I still think it is the strangest experience I have ever gone through, and the assumption that life is empty and meaningless, and that an individual is in total control of his/her universe is at total odds with my spiritual views. However, I have never said that it does not work well for some.
Do you really think that the course leaders go around thinking that life is empty and meaningless? Ofcourse not. That distinction is created to show that humans were made to make things mean something and we all do, now this doesnt stop this but it just gives us understanding that if im afraid of what people might think im just making it have meaning. What they mean by empty and meaningless is we are all going to die so live. tell me how thats cultish and i will back off.
Of course, anyone who has gone to a self-help course or read any psychology is aware that we often interpret reality from our own viewpoint. So no, there is nothing cultish about that. There is however in the way they deliver there message and the volunteerism that runs most of the business. Also, have you ever wondered why they just don't give you these pearls of wisdom in plain speech? For example, sometimes we as people tend to misunderstand people's thoughts and actions and
con't. we need to reflect on the accuaracy of our assumptions?" Landmark uses phrases like life is empty and meaningless and it doesn't mean , etc, etc, This is called sophistry. And it is designed to trick people into thinking that LM is offering new and special knowledge. Sorry, it's not. Just rehashed philosophy at a cost, a very wierd forum, and personal commitment to those who are converted. Sounds like a cult to most people I know and have heard from!
Your pretty much saying that you dont like cars because car salesmen try to sell you them. The introductory is a way to let people know about there "product". Not "psychologically tricking" or "brainwashing". That is absurd, they are simply letting you know about the program and those who are interested take it. This philosophy is yes, at a cost but i bet there are many of people that have taken it that have been critical, like you and really not embraced it introspectively to improve your life.
To accomplish its goals in 3 days, Landmark is wise to suspend morality and spirituality - but in bigger picture there are holes with it. I agree with Landmark philosophy that in order for things to work we have to follow "the rules" - but then the bigger question is, who make the rules? When we set them personally, we still make "rules" that many times are self serving or biased. This is where I feel a moral code set out by our Creator is superior comes in, we are not on our own.
Listened to relationship CDs from Landmark-presenters treated the audience as equals & politely-I realized our instructor fell short in this and was a bit shaming, not Landmark per se. I actually thought a lot of what Landmark presents are principles that are biblically based, just not presented in that way. Kind of like spiritual lessons for those disenchanted with organized religion.
You're right, Landmark is a pistache of a lot of different religious and philsophical views - all molded into one by Werner Erhardt who created the whole thing beginning with EST.
I felt the Landmark Forum was empowering on alot of levels, but again, it cannot address things on a supernatural level. There are definitely negative forces that exist apart from humans - even if you are atheist, there is too much documentation of paranormal activity - the bible in fact says that negative supernatural forces are something humans are pressured by - this is something beyond humans individually to oppose - this is where power and thinking beyond what is normal from God comes in.
you are obviously very smart and well spoken and i hope more potential landmark attendees see this video before signing up and signing away their autonomy.
my mother and father were married for 28 years until landmark and also I knew to very smart buisness owners who are now broke and down and out so landmark I get It you want it all!!!!!!!!
There actually is a book out and it is called "the Three Laws of Preformance". It was co-written with Landmark Forum Leader Steve Zefron. He is also the CEO of the Vantos Group the which is the business development side of Landmark Education.
Yes, anything that smacks of "LAWS of Performance" and business development when it is associated with the Landmark "personal development" program is suspect and just creepy. I think realizing one's own potential for most of these people is about getting rich even if it is disguised as a humanitarian program offering loans to small business in underdeveloped countries. There is nothing wrong with making money, I just don't think it is right to call it something it isn't.
A friend mentioned he had rented the movie "Yes Man" this weekend and I was reminded of Landmark. a friend of mine took me to a meeting years ago. I immediately became suspicious. I asked one leader if their information on transforming your life was so useful, why not put it in a book and I would buy it for $20. But they don't want $20, they want thousands, and your time, and your free services to expand their pyramid scheme. You are doing a great sevice in warning others with these videos.
Landmark Education is a training and development company. It uses ontolgy, the study of being, to produce an experience that make a difference in being human.
It fulfilled on have myself be responsible for my life and how I show up in it. Overall my experience of life has more freedom, self expression and love.
Your comments are simple but to the point. It does not require complexity to understand the logic which you put forward. Understanding your comments do not require long sessions in a classroom or any type of mind control. One only has to have intelligence to realise what you say is on the mark. Keep up the good work.
I did the LandMark Forum last week and it helped me so much I never expected anything like that, I was ver y skeptical but it really opened up my heart and helped me to see that love is at the heart of all being. . like many of us I find life a struggle sometimes and this has given me hope.
They tell you from the beginning that theyre not going to do anything for you or to you. lol. , and its YOUR responsibility for what you get out of it. Theyre right. lol. It gave me a sense of possibility like Ive never experienced. It was phenomenal. I would recommend it to anyone. To be completely honest, I would.
That is called recruitment, and I am sure you do it heavily. Why does the word resposibility even enter into your experience of the forum? The fact that you think one is responsible (ie obligated) to get something out of it, shows the extent you have been indocrtrinated. Think about it, if you can step back and still use your critical thinking skills.
I do feel much more courageous and less hesitant since the Forum and I feel I have a better way of applying myself to the world - I went from being a real life living dead to being a alive again - but I do see that about half the time in LE Seminars is used to implant Landmark advertizement into emotionally destabilized people - in really sneaky ways!
The ideas don't add up to that much - if you do it, make sure you have outside safety belts in place
I have been posting a lot of comments under various names. I know it seems crazy. But I think Landmark is all that is needed to save me and the world as we know it. Werner Erhard made me who I am today. I would give my life for him. He should be leading nations. This is why I get so upset at all this slander and gossiping.
I have been researching the life and work of Werner Erhard aka Jack Rosenberg who founded Landmark Education. This will be the topic of an upcoming video, and I promise the information you will hear will astound you!
Thank you very much bradbavarde for posting these videos, you are doing a great service to the public in getting the word out about this controversial organization and its methods.
nothing in this world beats being logical. these poor people taking these courses are just so lonely and lost. good videos buddy. one of my friends took the course and tried to enroll me also. its a money making machine.
no they are not. Primerica is "A.L. Williams" insurance pyramid scheme...not at all related. Landmark Forum was originally called "est". which was an intense program that people did back in hippy days; created by Werner Erhard. You can research "LGAT" (Large Group Awareness Training) to get an idea of the general technique involved. It's a form of group bonding/group hypnosis. I'd label Landmark a "soft cult" rather than a hard-core cult. I did the course and really liked it.
Christianity would also fit your cult definition...I hope u realize that. They will tell u that Landmark is for people who are WELL..not people in AA, or emotional problems, people who are WELL. If u are suicidal, you need to be somewhere else. BUT if u are interested in deep mind explorations, then The Forum is a fun ride. I enjoyed the clever techniques they use...and the room setup is even MORE orchestrated than u suspect. EVERYTHING is calculated to get the response they are looking for.
Of course Christianity is a cult,as any Religion. Do you think I am that naive? I just want to choose which one I adhere to. LM gave the impression they are compatible to all. The only problem I have with the mental health wiaver is that some people are not very self-aware. They may not even know to what point they are distressed. One guy came to mike and expressed how he had been suicidal in the past. Re: the orchestration, they line up the rows using a plumb line. Is that anal or what?
Oh, ok. The truth comes out. You are citing the Bible so I'm guessing your a Christian. Perhaps Landmark disrupts your preconcieved notions and ideas about life and what your capable of? Personally, I know several Christians (even Mormons) and other religious people who get alot out of the Forum and Landmark. Some are the most conservative people I know.
Thank you for your posting. It should be known that Dr. Fowler was the former EVP and CEO. Also, the article was written in 2000 at the request of LM and therefore may represent a biased view. I reccomend balancing that with the panel of psychologists on the French Documentary Listed on my page.
I noticed that you are an active member of an Episcopal Parish. I thought you would be interested in this quote.
"Landmark's programs have enabled me to be more effective in dealing with both my personal and religious commitments. Without addressing religion or theology, Landmark's programs have had an impact on my life that has expanded over many years and have enhanced my experience and practice of my faith."
Brendanbman is soon gonna find out that the advanced course is even more about 'enrollment' and 'sign-up strategies' than ever. But hey, par for the course (pardon the pun) for a seminar basically created 37 years ago BY an encyclopedia salesmen, and (up until then) FOR encyclopedia salesmen.
lol.. It doesn't worry me who created it... I know Werner Erhards past, I'm not there for him... He did create the "meaning making machines" idea though... The rest is taken from other books and so on but who cares... As far as signing people up, I know they want that but I just switch off and I know others do and deserve some credit...
Brad, thanks for being the voice of reason in this silly money-making scheme. Please don't give a dime to Landmark, it is a cult! Brad is right! Find out for yourself
Oh and another thing. IT IS A CULT! It has it's own language and it fits the description. That doesn't make it evil. Some football clubs are considered cult. Cult = Culture.
Point 1. They make money first!
Point 2. They are a cult though they deny it.
Point 3. None of the ideas are original.
Point 4. It's a well packaged bunch of ideas
Ponit 5. It does help some others it does nothing for.
Point 6. Keep your critial thinking if you chose to do it because it's not all fact!
All you really need to find is an Aquarium Shop... Also you are probably best starting with something like cichlids rather than marine fish as they are a lot harder to look after and much more expensive.
Thanks for the tip brendanman. I do think, that you can benefit from LM despite my joking and pontificating, but you need to be aware of what is going on behind the scenes. I am just afraid others are more naive than you!
Hey Brad, I did the landmark forum in Australia. I showed your video for the forum for cats to my mate who actually signed me up and thought it was hilarious. Truth is I can't stand their sign up strategies and find them unethical. But on the otherhand the content of the course helped me out. I just signed up for the advance course and I hated the sign up process I just want the education. It's hard to separate the two I just shutdown and know I'm not part of their machine I create my own!
Thanks for your comments, they make sense. I'm glad you thought my vid was funny, that was its purpose. Drop me a line and let me know how the advance course works out for you, I'd be interested. Thanks!
Never underestimate the persistence of the 'true believer.' They neither change their minds, nor the subject; and are like cold sores that simply refuse to go away.
Thanks for the affirmation. The fanaticism is indeed a sure sign of cult indoctrination. "I believe Landmark has the potential to greatly improve the quality of life on this planet" "it has the potential to unite a great many people all over the world." This is from navy1998/98 - all from a guy who says he thought like me until he continued in the course. Do these claims sound as though they come from a regular self-improvement seminar?
Brad, just wanted to say these videos are great. The more people who speak out about the dangers of the Landmark Forum the better.
Its also really great to read the Landmark participant's comments to your videos because it shows the world how incredibly fanatical they are in their complete devotion to the organization - a sure sign of cult indoctrination.
Referencing back to one thing MikeLight555 mentioned, there are lots of Lekkie trolls here 'in the ether' doin' Landmark's work FOR them. One reason is because so many have lots & lots of time on their hands. I have lots of time on my hands, too, these days. But I'M on paid vacation. ;-)
I couldn't agree more with you. I have a girlfriend who has attended several different Landmark Classes. She's been out of work and tells me it helps her open up to more avenues. Its been since April when she started and still she has no steady work. At one point we were together and one of the "Leaders" called her on her cell phone to push for more classes. And your right, its a feel good service that people get dependend on. We need more people to actively expose what Landmark is.....A SCAM
Thanks for your comments. There are people who are very threatened by telling how this company operates, and they are posting messages all the time like crazy to say otherwise. So we need comments like your's.
Yea, check out navyman's reappearance below.... "Reasonable minds come together"...
"aggree with you than in 'learning'"...it works for most...sounds like defense marketing in action, they don't want anyone trashing their product, do they?
Thanks, I am amazed at the zeal of some of the Lanmarkians and how they defend the program. See Navyman below. Also, pelatiare made a good video, but I think he was trying to passively attack some assumed vulnerable points. However, I remain steadfast.
Navygolf98. A video is worth a thousand words. I think I could be more persuaded by you in a video (I am serious). So how about it? Post a video response. I think it would be great!
I have plenty of videos of myself associated with this handle on YouTube (most of them teaching in Africa or driving my former warship, USS MCINERNEY). I prefer to post videos that directly illustrate the RESULTS I got from Landmark, and the opportunity to teach in Mozambique was a result of my participation in the Advanced Course. You are welcome to comment on those videos if you like. You can also read my blog triptoafrica dot blogspot
There is a correlation between openness to new ideas and economic growth. Read "The Rise of the Creative Class" by Richard Florida and see the evidence for that "absurd" notion yourself (too voluminous for 500 characters). 4 of the most quickly vanishing cities in the U.S. are in Ohio. I am proud to be an Ohioan, but many people I know who never left just can't seem to break out of old ways of thinking, because they are so caught up in believing that "they know how it is." So things fall apart.
You said, "Landmark can fit with any religion or no religion at all." Also, you are the one who seems to want to keep commenting as it appears you must have the last word. So no interpretations are provable, so that includes your's re: LM as well? As for Landmark fitting in with Judeo-Christian tradition, there is no compromise for me here. I don't believe there is evil in LM followers themselves, but the genesis and the leadsership I question (despite my interpretation and judgement).
You are right. My interpretations aren't provable. I just enjoy talking about them...just like you. It is interesting for me. But also ultimately empty and meaningless. But to make any judgment or interpretation about Landmark's leadership, I really think you need to do more than go to a 3-day weekend workshop. Perhaps actually meet a few of them and spend time with them. The organization runs with more integrity than any I have seen, U.S. Navy included. That's why I'm a big fan.
I'm always amused when people call LM "brainwashing," then go out and say that something is "weird" or "out of the ordinary." Didn't they have to be "brainwashed" themselves to get an idea of what "ordinary" is? Landmark isn't brainwashing--it is deprogramming from all the bullshit society encourages people (largely through fear of social consequences) to unthinking accept. The people who are the most "brainwashed" are those that haven't done something like LMF and questioned these beliefs.
No, I really don't give people enough credit, and that is why I am so concerned about what LM is doing. You must admit that the dynamics that occur in the forum are a bit out of the ordinary. I maintain that people in our society are so craved for community and relationship that they will fall for anything and stand for nothing. There are far more altruistic organtizations that offer people a sense of happiness and fufillment without any strings attached.
I don't think there is that much about the Forum that is "out of the ordinary." But more importantly, the dynamics of the Forum are only "out of the ordinary" if you have some conception of what "ordinary" is that you are unwilling to critically examine yet are very willing to brand things as "weird" for not fitting into that conception. The Forum is designed to get people to begin to question that which they have unthinkingly accepted as "right" or "true" and have limited themselves by doing so
I can understand that you believe organizations that fulfill the purposes Landmark fulfills shouldn't charge people money for doing so. But that's only your opinion. You are entitled to that opinion, but your opinion is only one of the millions of opinions out there about this. Yes, people do crave a higher level of relatedness with other humans, and Landmark has a methodology that can help them create that for themselves. There's nothing wrong with charging money for that value add.
You are right in saying that I err on the side of self-rightousness. However, I believe that I do have something new to contribute in that many critics of Landmark may not care or want to make a personal video concerning their experience. I see nothing wrong in that, nor do I believe it will do any harm to LM education. Do you see this as offensive or threatening?
Been reading "Zen Essense" by Cleary. One of the sections that is pertinent:
"Tourist Traps
At Zen centers they say there is a Way to be practiced and a religious truth to be realized. Tell me, what religious truth is realized, what way is practiced? In your present functioning, what do you lack? What would you fix?
Younger newcomers, not understanding this, immediately believe these mesmerists and let them talk about things that tie people up."
It seems to me that you didn't really "get" the whole empty & meaningless conversation, given the way you mock it and interpret it in the pejorative sense. The point isn't that "life doesn't mean anything"-the point is that "it doesn't mean anything that it doesn't mean anything." You might have just dismissed this as mind-control-circular-babbling without giving it much thought. This is a fundamental philosophical principle that serves as a gateway for understanding a great many other concepts.
Yes, I did get that twist, however, I still insist that the philosophical principal behind landmark is contrary to my view of life and faith as well as that of many others.
Yes, this was very productive. Thanks You so much for sharing. I hope it helps others not to get suckered into this cult !!
mikedpker45 1 year ago
Thank you for posting this, though I've never personally had an encounter with the group...I do have an interest in cult mentality. This organization, beneath its facade is nothing more than a greedy corporation interested in exploiting the emotional dependency of others. Free will is one of the greatest gifts we humans have, without it we cease to be individuals.
NaghurahCathal 1 year ago
@NaghurahCathal Thanks for your comment about the importance of free will!
bradbavarde 1 year ago
I did the Forum in about 1991. Months later, because two friends told me how great the course was, I did the (now defunct) Six Day course. I did exactly one seminar. I haven't had anything to do with LE since at least 1992. My point is that I was never psychologically dependent on LE, nor did I ever give them a single penny that I didn't want to give them. And yup, I was euphoric at the end of both courses. Continuing in their courses costs money. Yes. But so what?
slgilley 1 year ago
I have been in the SELP course, which is the last part of the curriculum for living and withdrawn from it. I realised the heavy selling was getting to me and also recognises my dependency was forming in earnest. Anyway, I have now walked away but am feeling very miserable. What can you advise me in order to feel less down about being away from it and trying to get my own answers in life. Would appreciate anything. Your videos have been great for me so keep up the good work! ;) Alan
alanxmato 1 year ago
Cults take you away from your family. Landmark forum brings you closer. It is not religious at all. This is not psychological at all. This is his opinion. It is not hypnosis. You may be afraid, and this leaves you in action to act in the face of your fears..It's not euphoria, it's ever expanding yourself. There is a free 10-week seminar series that allows you to practice the views in your every day life. It's always your choice; there's never any pressure.
leetyler06 1 year ago
HOw many times have you done the forum and what is the true financial costs that you are aware of which people are required to pay
AussieGunner1106 1 year ago
Wish I had seen your video before I became involved. You articulated very eloquently what I was feeling when I finally "escaped" from this cult. Thank you for sharing, and for doing your part to raise awareness.
uberstahl 1 year ago
The Forum has impacted you in ways you dont know that you dont even know. Whatever thoughts and descriptions of such impacts are different among all of us. Nevertheless, the choice of your notions about the Forum will continue at causing of such impacts as you think, read, write, Google and YouTube of this topic. Consider your life has been altered in ways, which whatever they might be, by your choice about your notions of the Forum, not by whatever the reality of the Landmark Forum really is.
js01132010 1 year ago
My wife and I did the Forum back in 2003.
It was certainly an intense experience, but never have thought of it as cultlike.
We apply the concepts to help work through family and work issues, but don't get too wrapped up in it.
It's actually being in the Forum that's tough for many. I can see where some people really get freaked out - a core concept is taking complete responsibility for everything that's happened to you in your life - ie - everything is a choice.
doogadoogie 2 years ago
@doogadoogie I agree that there is some strategies for living that can be carried away and applied effectively to one's life. However the notion of no one being a victim, is something I can't buy in to. I think the best example of this is that the man who founded Landmark Werner Erhard once told a Holocaust survivor that she was responsible for what had happened to her. Can't buy that.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
@bradbavarde - Agreed. Only after my Forum did I learn of it's history (EST) and cases of abuse, none of which occurred in our session. The syllabus is on their website, and I have to say that, for us, the material is pragmatic in its concept and application.
Unfortunate that it's founder and others have abused the privilege...
doogadoogie 2 years ago
@doogadoogie Yes, the boundries are a bit blurry between what is healthy self improvement and what could be considered abuse. In the case of you and your wife, your strength of character and intelligence obviously enabled you to distill a healthy strategy for living from the experience. My concern remains for those who are more vulnerable to the darker side such manipulation can bring through the methods that are used in the forum. I appreciate your comments, however.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
I think ANY organization - religious, business, political, etc., can and does manipulate vulnerable people. I'm Catholic and look at the abuse they've inflicted on people for centuries. Oprah has Andrew Young on and he certainly fell for the Cult of John Edwards, as did many of his supporters. As for weathering the pressure of more classes, we used what we learned in the Forum to fend them off:
(1) you only need the Forum to be complete with their entire program; we choose NOT to enroll.
doogadoogie 2 years ago
I am in the middle of this xxxxhole as I was forced by someone BIGGER than me in organization. I am 24 hours aware of this. Thank you for sharing! This world is so weak......But luckily I am strong enough.
poohE30 2 years ago
Landmark has taken my dad and little brother. They have both told me to join (very pushy I might add) and said if I do not have the money that I should do anything t get the money to join even if I had to steal it.
I want my family back to normal damnit!!!
Shantaro25 2 years ago
@Shantaro25 Sorry to hear that. I have been getting a lot of mail lately from people who have experienced broken relationships because of LM.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
If you are heavily involved in LM and there is a bell ringing in your head, that there is something wrong, trust your inner self, It is trying to save you. Gather all your energy, fight all the resistance, Leave the premises ASAP, and save your soul.
SmrutiR 2 years ago
Yup, I had the misfortune of watching one of their recruiters go after an impecunious and, sadly, unattractive woman - berated her about her life being a mess and told her "you can't afford NOT to take this!"
billallman 2 years ago
Thanks for the info. A friend is trying to get me interested in this Landmark stuff so I've been doing some research. He's about to take the seminar and give them a bunch of money he can't afford. I hope to dissuade him but they seem to have the hooks in pretty deep.
brotherthedog 2 years ago
Thanks for commenting. It will be interesting to see what your friend thinks of the forum, and more importantly what you see in him afterwards
bradbavarde 2 years ago
I've always wondered what is wrong with people that compels them to go to something like the Landmark forum. I had a girlfriend attend the Forum and she tried to recruit me, but after going to the intro I realized that it was a money making brainwashing exercise. The thing about brainwashing is that yes, if you have a bad life or are very confused, being brainwashed can make it seem like life is much better. However your ife really is no better, you have just been fooled into thinking it is.
ariot42 2 years ago
I went to the forum and then watch all forum in youtube before and after.
If you read all these comments and contents about the forum on both sides of the argumeent, I have noticed that attendees have one thing in common after the course: we realize that now we are better than the rest, smart than the rest. We are compelled and committed to make sure the world know and agree with us.
Hmmm... is this meanful and meaning?
I am doing the exact same thing as I am typing this comment.
js01132010 2 years ago
???? Huh
bradbavarde 2 years ago
Hahaha, awesome comment, what you are actually doing is stating an opinion on what you have observed.
Mymunkyrules 2 years ago
Went to the forum years ago and came out of it with some useful philosophical things but definitely not something I wanted anything else to do with. The people who worked for them were very strange in their whole demeanor. From someone I know who was (at one time) intensely involved with them, many of their members live "alternative" lifestyles, as their philosophies lead one to believe in moral relativism. That an everything was ultimately all about money and going to the next course.
onemindonespirit 2 years ago
Yes, I agree. There are some useful tips, but they are not original to LM as you say.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
onemindonespirit, sounds like you handled Landmark the right way. You went to the forum, got some use out of it and got the hell out. In other words, you used them and didn't let them use you. That's the way to do it.
vegaslover777 2 years ago
Is Landmark a cult? Some say it is, some say it isn't. But when I'm not sure of something I always defer to the experts in their respective fields. Having said that, practically every cult information service worldwide lists Landmark as a cult. The one in New Zealand describes Landmark as a 'dangerous' cult. See for yourself - these services all have websites.
Thank goodness for Google - after all, knowledge is power!!
vegaslover777 2 years ago
Those who are thinking about attending an introductory meeting then do the one meeting then wait one month before going further with their program. Think it over long and hard.
LoungeLizardLouie 2 years ago
And when you do attend the introductory meeting leave your credit card at home. Why? When the times comes you'll be glad you did.
vegaslover777 2 years ago
I worked for LE headquarters in Frisco. It was the worst work experience I have ever been through in my entire career. My immediate coworkers were deceitful and krappy to me. I later found out why. I got the job they wanted one of their friend to have. So to get rid of me they continuously set me up to look bad. Their friend was eventually hired in to replace me.
LE staff members are shitty krappy people. Go puke and die.
LoungeLizardLouie 2 years ago
I attended a welcome dinner and succumbed to the high pressure sell. They got my $300+, I made a date to go and everything. But I was suspicious; so I researched "Landmark Forum, cult" on YouTube and found you. My suspicions were confirmed. I never attended the Forum. They kept my money, I kept my individuality. Thanks for taking a stand.
willslabach 2 years ago
Thanks, I think you made the right decision. You should try to get your money back. They should refund it, they did mine.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
To their healthy friends and family members, the zealot may appear to have been brainwashed. Their enthusiasm seems unnatural and disproportionate. If they were unbalanced before taking the program, they may appear to have gone beyond "breakthrough" into "breakdown."
HQ77019 2 years ago
All I can say is THANKYOU. You and people like you have helped save my life from Landmark. I was registered into the leadership program when I realised it was a cult . I have since cancelled that and I feel like Im still trapped in a way. You couldn't have been more right about a wolf in sheeps clothing!
strawberrylove83 2 years ago
Yeah, I felt a little like a dumbass after the initial programming of Landmark wore off. Some family members thought I was completely insane.
ocrust666 2 years ago
keep wasting those precious $350 dollars on prescious baseball cards, south park dvds, celine dion concerts and porn. 350 dollars that land mark is trying to pry from your hands at any cost possible so that the organization can start a new world order were everyone is a mindless robot so that landmark can acquire members with such advanced intelect as yoursjeeejeee what a joke (of course you are not going to post this commet)
koito22 2 years ago
Very thoughtful comment. It proves to me the true nature and depth of Landmark Graduates with their new found "technology". I find that most are only interested in get rich quick schemes usually involving internet marketing. Your monetary worth does not impress me, I am impressed with what is in people's hearts. Based on what you have written, it doesn't seem Landmark has gotten you very far. - sad
bradbavarde 2 years ago
P.S.
Learn to spell!
bradbavarde 2 years ago
i`m busy making a better life for myself and not trying to play smart by putting down concepts and notions that work wonders for people and to worry about my spelling on a comment for a video a middle aged lonelly frustrated man made
koito22 2 years ago
now i`m worth over a 1-4 mill and laugh at self rightious idiots like you who inevitably are so correct about their vision of the world that they need no other point of view or realisation ...i don`t really care about the landmark brand or product as it may be but i can tell you that it information and technology you get from it does wonders for people and honestly i don`t really care if you or any body does the courses i got mine if you don`t get yours be it mean while...
koito22 2 years ago
@koito22 So Landmark taught you how to be an asshole and run around the internet putting down people who make less money than you...wow how enlightened and compasionate you are....not.
SparwoodApple 2 years ago
It's amazing how many Landmark People think the almighty dollar is the answer to all of life's problems.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
I support this video 100%. I was STALKED by a business associate to attend. His OBSESSION with my recruitment drove me to run like hell.
SO glad I DID!
Lengsel7 2 years ago
You are not rambling... this is a fucking cult fuck you culties giving this rational activist a hard time you fucking culties shut the fuck up moron followers. you guys are so fucked in the head.
Anonymous9104 2 years ago
I just finished the Landmark Advanced course and yet again I feel I got nothing out of it. I really had to stick by my decision not to enroll in the next program. In my opinion, I feel like my own emotions have been used against me as a way to get me to stay all three days and sign up in the next course.
WhitMovesian13 2 years ago
You need to talk to some of my friends who joined. They say they never met anyone that got nothing out of Landmark. I'm like seriously man, that's like going to a LA Lakers game while everyone is wearing plain clothes and asking where's the Boston Celtics fans at???
dips3t20 2 years ago
Correct, you are rambling. In my experience, both in doing the Landmark Forum and graduate courses, and in observing hundreds of people that have, the results are about 95% positive. I myself got out of a very bad slump of being unemployed, and into a very lucrative contract, which lasted for many years. This was worth over $500K to me; should I feel put out because I paid $375 for that? This comes to about $4.70 per hour. "Financially and psychologically exploited"? Don't think so.
Xtraversy 2 years ago 10
Yes, this is a typical Landmark justification for the expense (along with psychotherapy costs a lot more). The problem is that some people may not be able to afford the training, but feel compelled to continue after the high pressure, guilt associated sales techniques. Also the expense in volunteer time required takes people away from family and friends who are not part of their new "results" out of life program.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
Also, I have noticed that some Landmarkians who are most supportive of the program go on to create all sorts of Internet marketing schemes or get into the loan market. This makes me question if the only thing that drives them is the quest for the almighty dollar rather than helping other people through Landmark.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
Continues on my previous point. I still recommend people to attend Landmark workshop. But I also ask them to beware of the battle will happen in your heart. You can end up be a man with shining eyes like Ben Zander. Or you can end up to become one of the Landmark robot.
albertaaaaaaaaaaa 2 years ago
Well. I agree with you a lot. The things in this just won't be perfect anyway. Just like Ing and Yong. Landmark have the most beautiful and insightful frameworks I had ever experience in my life. On the other hand, they also have the most dirty marketing shit all around the class. I got more insight after I attend the advance course. Landmark guys have to face the fact that 70% of the registration conversation is based on survival. I know this is hard because we are human.
albertaaaaaaaaaaa 2 years ago
you look like Gordon Ramsey. Your very well spoken and thank you for the post.
le1029ah 2 years ago
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CDN7311 2 years ago
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CDN7311 2 years ago
That's a pretty fair appraisal of what happens.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
I was in the Forum with you. I found it beneficial as a TOOL - it did help me uncover some things, and I learned a great deal. I did find it hypocritical there was all the instruction about "being your word" but then was second guessed repeatedly when I said I was unable to attend the Graduate course.
naglebill 2 years ago
Well, it's almost been a year since I sat in that room, and I guess you can say that it has had an impact on me as I hear from people all the time about their various experiences. I still think it is the strangest experience I have ever gone through, and the assumption that life is empty and meaningless, and that an individual is in total control of his/her universe is at total odds with my spiritual views. However, I have never said that it does not work well for some.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
Do you really think that the course leaders go around thinking that life is empty and meaningless? Ofcourse not. That distinction is created to show that humans were made to make things mean something and we all do, now this doesnt stop this but it just gives us understanding that if im afraid of what people might think im just making it have meaning. What they mean by empty and meaningless is we are all going to die so live. tell me how thats cultish and i will back off.
Jnudello8 2 years ago
Of course, anyone who has gone to a self-help course or read any psychology is aware that we often interpret reality from our own viewpoint. So no, there is nothing cultish about that. There is however in the way they deliver there message and the volunteerism that runs most of the business. Also, have you ever wondered why they just don't give you these pearls of wisdom in plain speech? For example, sometimes we as people tend to misunderstand people's thoughts and actions and
bradbavarde 2 years ago
con't. we need to reflect on the accuaracy of our assumptions?" Landmark uses phrases like life is empty and meaningless and it doesn't mean , etc, etc, This is called sophistry. And it is designed to trick people into thinking that LM is offering new and special knowledge. Sorry, it's not. Just rehashed philosophy at a cost, a very wierd forum, and personal commitment to those who are converted. Sounds like a cult to most people I know and have heard from!
bradbavarde 2 years ago
Your pretty much saying that you dont like cars because car salesmen try to sell you them. The introductory is a way to let people know about there "product". Not "psychologically tricking" or "brainwashing". That is absurd, they are simply letting you know about the program and those who are interested take it. This philosophy is yes, at a cost but i bet there are many of people that have taken it that have been critical, like you and really not embraced it introspectively to improve your life.
Jnudello8 2 years ago
To accomplish its goals in 3 days, Landmark is wise to suspend morality and spirituality - but in bigger picture there are holes with it. I agree with Landmark philosophy that in order for things to work we have to follow "the rules" - but then the bigger question is, who make the rules? When we set them personally, we still make "rules" that many times are self serving or biased. This is where I feel a moral code set out by our Creator is superior comes in, we are not on our own.
naglebill 2 years ago
Listened to relationship CDs from Landmark-presenters treated the audience as equals & politely-I realized our instructor fell short in this and was a bit shaming, not Landmark per se. I actually thought a lot of what Landmark presents are principles that are biblically based, just not presented in that way. Kind of like spiritual lessons for those disenchanted with organized religion.
naglebill 2 years ago
You're right, Landmark is a pistache of a lot of different religious and philsophical views - all molded into one by Werner Erhardt who created the whole thing beginning with EST.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
I felt the Landmark Forum was empowering on alot of levels, but again, it cannot address things on a supernatural level. There are definitely negative forces that exist apart from humans - even if you are atheist, there is too much documentation of paranormal activity - the bible in fact says that negative supernatural forces are something humans are pressured by - this is something beyond humans individually to oppose - this is where power and thinking beyond what is normal from God comes in.
naglebill 2 years ago
you are obviously very smart and well spoken and i hope more potential landmark attendees see this video before signing up and signing away their autonomy.
vagisil4eva 2 years ago 2
thanks for the support!
bradbavarde 2 years ago
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. This is all from an introduction you went to. You never registered?
GreenLifespace 2 years ago
of course, I did the complete forum and came every day. I would never do these videos if I had not.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
my husband just went . I am now married to a stranger.
festivalbaby1 2 years ago
Wow, sorry about that. I hope he comes around after the after glow wears off.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
my mother and father were married for 28 years until landmark and also I knew to very smart buisness owners who are now broke and down and out so landmark I get It you want it all!!!!!!!!
originaljanelliebean 2 years ago
My mother and father were married for 27 years and now can't stand eachother bad juju!!!!!!!
originaljanelliebean 2 years ago
There actually is a book out and it is called "the Three Laws of Preformance". It was co-written with Landmark Forum Leader Steve Zefron. He is also the CEO of the Vantos Group the which is the business development side of Landmark Education.
blueskine 2 years ago 2
Yes, anything that smacks of "LAWS of Performance" and business development when it is associated with the Landmark "personal development" program is suspect and just creepy. I think realizing one's own potential for most of these people is about getting rich even if it is disguised as a humanitarian program offering loans to small business in underdeveloped countries. There is nothing wrong with making money, I just don't think it is right to call it something it isn't.
bradbavarde 2 years ago
A friend mentioned he had rented the movie "Yes Man" this weekend and I was reminded of Landmark. a friend of mine took me to a meeting years ago. I immediately became suspicious. I asked one leader if their information on transforming your life was so useful, why not put it in a book and I would buy it for $20. But they don't want $20, they want thousands, and your time, and your free services to expand their pyramid scheme. You are doing a great sevice in warning others with these videos.
toobyu2859 2 years ago
Landmark Education is a training and development company. It uses ontolgy, the study of being, to produce an experience that make a difference in being human.
It fulfilled on have myself be responsible for my life and how I show up in it. Overall my experience of life has more freedom, self expression and love.
blueskine 2 years ago 3
i was invited to attend the forum and i already paid the non-refundable registration fee.
but after watching your videos and reading the websites you mentioned, i have been amply warned and i no longer wish to pursue the forum.
thank you very much for posting these videos. my only fear now is that i will be hounded relentlessly by the LE telephone agents.
paddyspoint2 2 years ago
Keep up the good work informing people. More people need to be made aware of the dangers of being exploited by groups like the Forum.
phoenix1082001 2 years ago
Your comments are simple but to the point. It does not require complexity to understand the logic which you put forward. Understanding your comments do not require long sessions in a classroom or any type of mind control. One only has to have intelligence to realise what you say is on the mark. Keep up the good work.
watto958 2 years ago
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betterversionn 3 years ago 3
Thanks for the video - you are absolutely right
Susieshepherd 3 years ago 4
Please keep going and keep educating people about Landmark scam.
concino1 3 years ago 13
I did the LandMark Forum last week and it helped me so much I never expected anything like that, I was ver y skeptical but it really opened up my heart and helped me to see that love is at the heart of all being. . like many of us I find life a struggle sometimes and this has given me hope.
cjg28 3 years ago
They tell you from the beginning that theyre not going to do anything for you or to you. lol. , and its YOUR responsibility for what you get out of it. Theyre right. lol. It gave me a sense of possibility like Ive never experienced. It was phenomenal. I would recommend it to anyone. To be completely honest, I would.
AhYaOk 3 years ago
That is called recruitment, and I am sure you do it heavily. Why does the word resposibility even enter into your experience of the forum? The fact that you think one is responsible (ie obligated) to get something out of it, shows the extent you have been indocrtrinated. Think about it, if you can step back and still use your critical thinking skills.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
I dont recruit people. I'm not sure I follow you on the other point. I meant responsible as in responsible; not obligated. What do you mean?
AhYaOk 3 years ago
Landmark is a really interesting phenomenon.
I do feel much more courageous and less hesitant since the Forum and I feel I have a better way of applying myself to the world - I went from being a real life living dead to being a alive again - but I do see that about half the time in LE Seminars is used to implant Landmark advertizement into emotionally destabilized people - in really sneaky ways!
The ideas don't add up to that much - if you do it, make sure you have outside safety belts in place
transfixedtornado 3 years ago
very insightful comment.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
bless you for this, you are a man of integrity
6458522 3 years ago 8
"I would give my life for him. He should be leading nations." = lulz. = roflmao. period.
gurutruth 3 years ago
What's lulz?
toobyu2859 2 years ago
I have been posting a lot of comments under various names. I know it seems crazy. But I think Landmark is all that is needed to save me and the world as we know it. Werner Erhard made me who I am today. I would give my life for him. He should be leading nations. This is why I get so upset at all this slander and gossiping.
midnigtnap 3 years ago
Quote from the guy who founded Landmark:
"I need to see that I am a con man before I can see my true value.
-Werner Erhard
As cited in the book, Outrageous Betrayal by Steven Pressman.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
I have been researching the life and work of Werner Erhard aka Jack Rosenberg who founded Landmark Education. This will be the topic of an upcoming video, and I promise the information you will hear will astound you!
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Thank you very much bradbavarde for posting these videos, you are doing a great service to the public in getting the word out about this controversial organization and its methods.
gurutruth 3 years ago 2
nothing in this world beats being logical. these poor people taking these courses are just so lonely and lost. good videos buddy. one of my friends took the course and tried to enroll me also. its a money making machine.
nanobot81 3 years ago
Thanks for posting. See my response on your page to that person of low degree who left that nasty comment for you. He is a hot mess.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
no they are not. Primerica is "A.L. Williams" insurance pyramid scheme...not at all related. Landmark Forum was originally called "est". which was an intense program that people did back in hippy days; created by Werner Erhard. You can research "LGAT" (Large Group Awareness Training) to get an idea of the general technique involved. It's a form of group bonding/group hypnosis. I'd label Landmark a "soft cult" rather than a hard-core cult. I did the course and really liked it.
dboy
Dboy66 3 years ago
Christianity would also fit your cult definition...I hope u realize that. They will tell u that Landmark is for people who are WELL..not people in AA, or emotional problems, people who are WELL. If u are suicidal, you need to be somewhere else. BUT if u are interested in deep mind explorations, then The Forum is a fun ride. I enjoyed the clever techniques they use...and the room setup is even MORE orchestrated than u suspect. EVERYTHING is calculated to get the response they are looking for.
Dboy66 3 years ago
Of course Christianity is a cult,as any Religion. Do you think I am that naive? I just want to choose which one I adhere to. LM gave the impression they are compatible to all. The only problem I have with the mental health wiaver is that some people are not very self-aware. They may not even know to what point they are distressed. One guy came to mike and expressed how he had been suicidal in the past. Re: the orchestration, they line up the rows using a plumb line. Is that anal or what?
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Oh, ok. The truth comes out. You are citing the Bible so I'm guessing your a Christian. Perhaps Landmark disrupts your preconcieved notions and ideas about life and what your capable of? Personally, I know several Christians (even Mormons) and other religious people who get alot out of the Forum and Landmark. Some are the most conservative people I know.
WayneHughes86 3 years ago
Thank you for your posting. It should be known that Dr. Fowler was the former EVP and CEO. Also, the article was written in 2000 at the request of LM and therefore may represent a biased view. I reccomend balancing that with the panel of psychologists on the French Documentary Listed on my page.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Hi Brad:
I noticed that you are an active member of an Episcopal Parish. I thought you would be interested in this quote.
"Landmark's programs have enabled me to be more effective in dealing with both my personal and religious commitments. Without addressing religion or theology, Landmark's programs have had an impact on my life that has expanded over many years and have enhanced my experience and practice of my faith."
Otis Charles - Episcopal Bishop
heartman3x3 3 years ago
Brendanbman is soon gonna find out that the advanced course is even more about 'enrollment' and 'sign-up strategies' than ever. But hey, par for the course (pardon the pun) for a seminar basically created 37 years ago BY an encyclopedia salesmen, and (up until then) FOR encyclopedia salesmen.
timpanist1 3 years ago
lol.. It doesn't worry me who created it... I know Werner Erhards past, I'm not there for him... He did create the "meaning making machines" idea though... The rest is taken from other books and so on but who cares... As far as signing people up, I know they want that but I just switch off and I know others do and deserve some credit...
brendanbman 3 years ago
You're welcome. And thank you Lars for leading the way!
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Brad, thanks for being the voice of reason in this silly money-making scheme. Please don't give a dime to Landmark, it is a cult! Brad is right! Find out for yourself
mmac2021 3 years ago
Oh and another thing. IT IS A CULT! It has it's own language and it fits the description. That doesn't make it evil. Some football clubs are considered cult. Cult = Culture.
Point 1. They make money first!
Point 2. They are a cult though they deny it.
Point 3. None of the ideas are original.
Point 4. It's a well packaged bunch of ideas
Ponit 5. It does help some others it does nothing for.
Point 6. Keep your critial thinking if you chose to do it because it's not all fact!
brendanbman 3 years ago
Cool videos! I would love to have an aquarium like that, but where I live it would be very difficult as I am far from the ocean.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
All you really need to find is an Aquarium Shop... Also you are probably best starting with something like cichlids rather than marine fish as they are a lot harder to look after and much more expensive.
brendanbman 3 years ago
Thanks for the tip brendanman. I do think, that you can benefit from LM despite my joking and pontificating, but you need to be aware of what is going on behind the scenes. I am just afraid others are more naive than you!
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Hey Brad, I did the landmark forum in Australia. I showed your video for the forum for cats to my mate who actually signed me up and thought it was hilarious. Truth is I can't stand their sign up strategies and find them unethical. But on the otherhand the content of the course helped me out. I just signed up for the advance course and I hated the sign up process I just want the education. It's hard to separate the two I just shutdown and know I'm not part of their machine I create my own!
brendanbman 3 years ago
Thanks for your comments, they make sense. I'm glad you thought my vid was funny, that was its purpose. Drop me a line and let me know how the advance course works out for you, I'd be interested. Thanks!
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Never underestimate the persistence of the 'true believer.' They neither change their minds, nor the subject; and are like cold sores that simply refuse to go away.
timpanist1 3 years ago
Thanks for the affirmation. The fanaticism is indeed a sure sign of cult indoctrination. "I believe Landmark has the potential to greatly improve the quality of life on this planet" "it has the potential to unite a great many people all over the world." This is from navy1998/98 - all from a guy who says he thought like me until he continued in the course. Do these claims sound as though they come from a regular self-improvement seminar?
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Brad, just wanted to say these videos are great. The more people who speak out about the dangers of the Landmark Forum the better.
Its also really great to read the Landmark participant's comments to your videos because it shows the world how incredibly fanatical they are in their complete devotion to the organization - a sure sign of cult indoctrination.
innocent1234 3 years ago
Referencing back to one thing MikeLight555 mentioned, there are lots of Lekkie trolls here 'in the ether' doin' Landmark's work FOR them. One reason is because so many have lots & lots of time on their hands. I have lots of time on my hands, too, these days. But I'M on paid vacation. ;-)
timpanist1 3 years ago
Well, in case you haven't noticed. Post pro-Landmark sites, won't let you post anything critical either, so what does that tell you?
bradbavarde 3 years ago
I couldn't agree more with you. I have a girlfriend who has attended several different Landmark Classes. She's been out of work and tells me it helps her open up to more avenues. Its been since April when she started and still she has no steady work. At one point we were together and one of the "Leaders" called her on her cell phone to push for more classes. And your right, its a feel good service that people get dependend on. We need more people to actively expose what Landmark is.....A SCAM
MikeLight555 3 years ago 2
Thanks for your comments. There are people who are very threatened by telling how this company operates, and they are posting messages all the time like crazy to say otherwise. So we need comments like your's.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Hang in there, pal. They're just Lekkie trolls, keeping the company's marketing expenses low, Low, LOW.
timpanist1 3 years ago
Yea, check out navyman's reappearance below.... "Reasonable minds come together"...
"aggree with you than in 'learning'"...it works for most...sounds like defense marketing in action, they don't want anyone trashing their product, do they?
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Good work, Brad. Keep it up.
timpanist1 3 years ago
Thanks, I am amazed at the zeal of some of the Lanmarkians and how they defend the program. See Navyman below. Also, pelatiare made a good video, but I think he was trying to passively attack some assumed vulnerable points. However, I remain steadfast.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Navygolf98. A video is worth a thousand words. I think I could be more persuaded by you in a video (I am serious). So how about it? Post a video response. I think it would be great!
bradbavarde 3 years ago
I have plenty of videos of myself associated with this handle on YouTube (most of them teaching in Africa or driving my former warship, USS MCINERNEY). I prefer to post videos that directly illustrate the RESULTS I got from Landmark, and the opportunity to teach in Mozambique was a result of my participation in the Advanced Course. You are welcome to comment on those videos if you like. You can also read my blog triptoafrica dot blogspot
navygolf98 3 years ago
There is a correlation between openness to new ideas and economic growth. Read "The Rise of the Creative Class" by Richard Florida and see the evidence for that "absurd" notion yourself (too voluminous for 500 characters). 4 of the most quickly vanishing cities in the U.S. are in Ohio. I am proud to be an Ohioan, but many people I know who never left just can't seem to break out of old ways of thinking, because they are so caught up in believing that "they know how it is." So things fall apart.
navygolf98 3 years ago
You said, "Landmark can fit with any religion or no religion at all." Also, you are the one who seems to want to keep commenting as it appears you must have the last word. So no interpretations are provable, so that includes your's re: LM as well? As for Landmark fitting in with Judeo-Christian tradition, there is no compromise for me here. I don't believe there is evil in LM followers themselves, but the genesis and the leadsership I question (despite my interpretation and judgement).
bradbavarde 3 years ago
You are right. My interpretations aren't provable. I just enjoy talking about them...just like you. It is interesting for me. But also ultimately empty and meaningless. But to make any judgment or interpretation about Landmark's leadership, I really think you need to do more than go to a 3-day weekend workshop. Perhaps actually meet a few of them and spend time with them. The organization runs with more integrity than any I have seen, U.S. Navy included. That's why I'm a big fan.
navygolf98 3 years ago
I'm always amused when people call LM "brainwashing," then go out and say that something is "weird" or "out of the ordinary." Didn't they have to be "brainwashed" themselves to get an idea of what "ordinary" is? Landmark isn't brainwashing--it is deprogramming from all the bullshit society encourages people (largely through fear of social consequences) to unthinking accept. The people who are the most "brainwashed" are those that haven't done something like LMF and questioned these beliefs.
navygolf98 3 years ago
No, I really don't give people enough credit, and that is why I am so concerned about what LM is doing. You must admit that the dynamics that occur in the forum are a bit out of the ordinary. I maintain that people in our society are so craved for community and relationship that they will fall for anything and stand for nothing. There are far more altruistic organtizations that offer people a sense of happiness and fufillment without any strings attached.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
I don't think there is that much about the Forum that is "out of the ordinary." But more importantly, the dynamics of the Forum are only "out of the ordinary" if you have some conception of what "ordinary" is that you are unwilling to critically examine yet are very willing to brand things as "weird" for not fitting into that conception. The Forum is designed to get people to begin to question that which they have unthinkingly accepted as "right" or "true" and have limited themselves by doing so
navygolf98 3 years ago
I can understand that you believe organizations that fulfill the purposes Landmark fulfills shouldn't charge people money for doing so. But that's only your opinion. You are entitled to that opinion, but your opinion is only one of the millions of opinions out there about this. Yes, people do crave a higher level of relatedness with other humans, and Landmark has a methodology that can help them create that for themselves. There's nothing wrong with charging money for that value add.
navygolf98 3 years ago
You are right in saying that I err on the side of self-rightousness. However, I believe that I do have something new to contribute in that many critics of Landmark may not care or want to make a personal video concerning their experience. I see nothing wrong in that, nor do I believe it will do any harm to LM education. Do you see this as offensive or threatening?
bradbavarde 3 years ago
Been reading "Zen Essense" by Cleary. One of the sections that is pertinent:
"Tourist Traps
At Zen centers they say there is a Way to be practiced and a religious truth to be realized. Tell me, what religious truth is realized, what way is practiced? In your present functioning, what do you lack? What would you fix?
Younger newcomers, not understanding this, immediately believe these mesmerists and let them talk about things that tie people up."
EnricCirne 3 years ago
I thought this was quite good and to the point. Enjoy your humor.
EnricCirne 3 years ago
thanks, Eric.
bradbavarde 3 years ago
It seems to me that you didn't really "get" the whole empty & meaningless conversation, given the way you mock it and interpret it in the pejorative sense. The point isn't that "life doesn't mean anything"-the point is that "it doesn't mean anything that it doesn't mean anything." You might have just dismissed this as mind-control-circular-babbling without giving it much thought. This is a fundamental philosophical principle that serves as a gateway for understanding a great many other concepts.
navygolf98 3 years ago
Yes, I did get that twist, however, I still insist that the philosophical principal behind landmark is contrary to my view of life and faith as well as that of many others.
bradbavarde 3 years ago