@natwood57..Just because you can't think of how the universe came into order means "God" did it ? That's an argument from ignorance. If you seek information, real information. I suggest a video series by AronRa, Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism. Check it out.
@ 1:40 I think the odds the universe being the way it is (extremely hostile to life) are more like 1/1 aren't they? Unless there are 87 gazillion chaotic, failed universes no one told me about.
If you you shake up a dump truck full of sand or dice and dump it off a skyscraper, I think the odds of it landing exactly the way it does are pretty low. And yet, there it is.
you can't look at a system in a finished state and comment about its probability. The probablility of everything coming together the way it has is 100%, its aready happened. As for faith, how much faith does it take to not believe in unicorns, same thing.
I can definately consider that God exsist. However, I DON'T believe that he has any sort of dominion or interaction w/ us earthly creatures, which seems quite evident! My childhood would be a good example, but I'll use one you'll be familiar with; the daugther that was kept in a basement for 24 yrs while he raped and molested her? What about the children she had only to have them imprisoned and molested as well? WHY, if there were a God, would he stand by and let it happen?
Okay, very relavent question. There seem to be lots of candidates out there. Isn't, logcially speaking, the answer this one . . . the only true God. Or, to be even broader about it . . . only those "gods" which really exist. That would be the logical response to your question, right?
I do not deny the possibility of the existance of a god. However i do find it hard to get to the conclusion that religion claims to know the will of this god. For all we know, this god may not want to be worshipped.
The only belief in a god that i find rational would be something such as deism.
I've studied various sects of the Christian faith, Islamic, Buddhism, and various ancient beliefs in a historical context. Unlike you, while reading the Christian Bible, I didn't find it to be compelling whatsoever. I don't believe we were created in God's image, as we are so innately flawed on so many levels. I don't believe we fell from grace. The only fundamental parts of the stories scattered throughout the cultures of the world are based on our significant ignorance insecurities, simply.
Okay Langfordc. Let me ask you this question . . . as a Theist but also as a thinker I have to acknowledge the possiblity that God may not exist. On your side of the ledger are you similarly open0minded? That is, are you willing to consider the possibility that God does exist?
Of course...I believe that all things are possible. I originally thought that God did exist, but as I grew older, and wiser, I realized that God does not exist. At least, not any version of God that I am aware of and have studied. There is no more evidence for your God than any other God...even those whose stories are much older than your God's.
"All thinking men are atheists." -Ernest Hemingway
@andyandymax - what else would I use besides evidence? Would you consider it highly likely that unicorns once existed even though there's no evidence they ever have? LOL
For the record, I'm not absolutely certain there is no God. Nobody knows that. However, given the information available to me, I think that it's highly unlikely that any of the God's we've created in the long history of mankind, are in fact real. There's no more evidence for one than any of the others.
@andyandymax - Objective proof? Really? I would completely accept objective, clearly of divine origin, proof. I, along with millions of others, would become 100% believers if such a thing existed. PLEASE share with me!
Nothing is perfect in this universe we live in. Complicated, yes, (to us). Perfect - not even close. To me, atheism simply means that I don't believe in the fairy tales created by religions. It does not mean that I assume to know all the answers, such as the origin of the universe. However, rational thought and simple observation have shown me that none of the religions I have studied thus far are factual, or correct about the origins of man, or this universe. God made me an atheist.
I don't know what religions you've studied or in what context. I know what I had been exposed in the way religions prior to becoming a Christ-follower. In retrospect I see that I had never been exposed to real Christianity, but only a charicature presented by flawed people. I find the origins man as portrayed in Scripture to be compelling. We were created in God's image. We fell from grace. God is at work redeeming us. It seems to me that this is the fundamental story of the human race.
You forgot to take a step back when looking at the chances for the universe turning out 'as is'. We are not necessary components of the universe. Say one of the factors that would not allow us to be here were implemented. Who's to say 200 different intelligent lifeforms wouldn't be formed from that change and are wondering how they got so lucky. These statistics are pretty much just complete speculations meant to be taken as 'well that's interesting'.
I think it's tough to so easily dismiss the probability argument with a "that's interesting but no more" approach. No matter who you go to the question of the existence of the universe poses a huge enigma. It seems to me that the combination of Fred Hoyle/Emile Borel and others puts atheists in this position . . . we acknowledge that the odds of the universe coming into being are fantastically small . . . but we choose to believe it anyway. I would say that is faith and faith on a high order.
Oh? Well take a step back and think of the chances that you were born. Fantastically small when looked at in the same way. Or did god intervene there too? If so, where's the free will of your parents that we're all supposed to have?
The 'chances' of something happening in a particular way are irrelavant when a particular outcome isn't actually needed.
Perhaps the question is less, "what are the chances you were born?" then it is "what are the chances that we would ever have a life producing universe? A universe at all? A sustainable and ordered universe? A universe where there was such a thing as parents, procreation, and, dare I say it, love?
The Tornado in the Junkyard Analogy that you attribute to a " Hindu professor of statistics" is from Fred Hoyle's book The Intelligent Universe. Hoyle intended this as an argument against abiogenesis.
Where on Earth did you get the idea that it was from some (random) Hindu professor?
Hey Edeila, thanks for the correction. You're right. I went back to some stuff I'd written a few years ago & saw the Hoyle footnote. I think "the Hindu professor thing" comes from an attempt to describe Hoyle's number (1x10 to the 40,000th power).
Emile Borel, the great French scientist, stated that any event requiring a greater than 1 x 10 to the 50th power just doesn't happen. So, we are left at the same place. What's the greater liklihood? I vote . . . God.
Your use of an arguement that has been soundly disproven is typical of your ilk. If you would like to see this "fact" systematically disproven, I suggest you watch thunderf00t's Why People Laugh at Creationists series, where he specifically targets this probability nonsense. Even if you do believe this drivel, and it really is, this in no way vindicates the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, or as I like to call him, the imaginary friend for adults.
Rednavy I think you are attempting to simply dismiss the question rather than honestly deal with it. No matter how you calculate it, the odds of the existence of an ordered universe are fantastically small. You may wnat to check out Emile Borel on this. The existence of God is at the very least a credible intellectual possibility when considering the questions posed by the existence of the universe . . . &, for the moment, the question is not the Judeo-Christian God but just a Creator.
@natwood57..Just because you can't think of how the universe came into order means "God" did it ? That's an argument from ignorance. If you seek information, real information. I suggest a video series by AronRa, Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism. Check it out.
odiewan58 9 months ago
"God is a myth. Right?" You are correct sir! 8P
@ 1:40 I think the odds the universe being the way it is (extremely hostile to life) are more like 1/1 aren't they? Unless there are 87 gazillion chaotic, failed universes no one told me about.
If you you shake up a dump truck full of sand or dice and dump it off a skyscraper, I think the odds of it landing exactly the way it does are pretty low. And yet, there it is.
OptimisticCynic715 1 year ago
you can't look at a system in a finished state and comment about its probability. The probablility of everything coming together the way it has is 100%, its aready happened. As for faith, how much faith does it take to not believe in unicorns, same thing.
gavinfe 1 year ago
I can definately consider that God exsist. However, I DON'T believe that he has any sort of dominion or interaction w/ us earthly creatures, which seems quite evident! My childhood would be a good example, but I'll use one you'll be familiar with; the daugther that was kept in a basement for 24 yrs while he raped and molested her? What about the children she had only to have them imprisoned and molested as well? WHY, if there were a God, would he stand by and let it happen?
crazy4carolyn 2 years ago
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psyman88 2 years ago
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psyman88 2 years ago
so natwood ur trying to say the universe was created by a god, then what created god.
GodsAMyth 2 years ago
What about deism seems rational? Or potentially rational?
natwood57 3 years ago
If a god is the likely answer, then which god?
scott5878 3 years ago
Okay, very relavent question. There seem to be lots of candidates out there. Isn't, logcially speaking, the answer this one . . . the only true God. Or, to be even broader about it . . . only those "gods" which really exist. That would be the logical response to your question, right?
natwood57 3 years ago
That is the best response i have heard so far.
I do not deny the possibility of the existance of a god. However i do find it hard to get to the conclusion that religion claims to know the will of this god. For all we know, this god may not want to be worshipped.
The only belief in a god that i find rational would be something such as deism.
scott5878 3 years ago
I've studied various sects of the Christian faith, Islamic, Buddhism, and various ancient beliefs in a historical context. Unlike you, while reading the Christian Bible, I didn't find it to be compelling whatsoever. I don't believe we were created in God's image, as we are so innately flawed on so many levels. I don't believe we fell from grace. The only fundamental parts of the stories scattered throughout the cultures of the world are based on our significant ignorance insecurities, simply.
Langfordc 3 years ago
So, if we're not created in the image of God, then what are we?
natwood57 3 years ago
We are humans...evolved from our Hominina ancestors, of which, we have the most empirical evidence for.
There is no objective proof that we were "created" in the image of your God, or any other God, for that matter.
Langfordc 3 years ago
Okay Langfordc. Let me ask you this question . . . as a Theist but also as a thinker I have to acknowledge the possiblity that God may not exist. On your side of the ledger are you similarly open0minded? That is, are you willing to consider the possibility that God does exist?
natwood57 3 years ago
Of course...I believe that all things are possible. I originally thought that God did exist, but as I grew older, and wiser, I realized that God does not exist. At least, not any version of God that I am aware of and have studied. There is no more evidence for your God than any other God...even those whose stories are much older than your God's.
"All thinking men are atheists." -Ernest Hemingway
Langfordc 3 years ago
@Langfordc - Funny, you equate having no evidence with the absolute certainty of there being no G-d.
andyandymax 1 year ago
@andyandymax - what else would I use besides evidence? Would you consider it highly likely that unicorns once existed even though there's no evidence they ever have? LOL
For the record, I'm not absolutely certain there is no God. Nobody knows that. However, given the information available to me, I think that it's highly unlikely that any of the God's we've created in the long history of mankind, are in fact real. There's no more evidence for one than any of the others.
Langfordc 1 year ago
@Langfordc - Actually, there is, but I doubt that you would ever accept that, so never mind.
andyandymax 1 year ago
@andyandymax - Objective proof? Really? I would completely accept objective, clearly of divine origin, proof. I, along with millions of others, would become 100% believers if such a thing existed. PLEASE share with me!
Langfordc 1 year ago
Nothing is perfect in this universe we live in. Complicated, yes, (to us). Perfect - not even close. To me, atheism simply means that I don't believe in the fairy tales created by religions. It does not mean that I assume to know all the answers, such as the origin of the universe. However, rational thought and simple observation have shown me that none of the religions I have studied thus far are factual, or correct about the origins of man, or this universe. God made me an atheist.
Langfordc 3 years ago
I don't know what religions you've studied or in what context. I know what I had been exposed in the way religions prior to becoming a Christ-follower. In retrospect I see that I had never been exposed to real Christianity, but only a charicature presented by flawed people. I find the origins man as portrayed in Scripture to be compelling. We were created in God's image. We fell from grace. God is at work redeeming us. It seems to me that this is the fundamental story of the human race.
natwood57 3 years ago
You forgot to take a step back when looking at the chances for the universe turning out 'as is'. We are not necessary components of the universe. Say one of the factors that would not allow us to be here were implemented. Who's to say 200 different intelligent lifeforms wouldn't be formed from that change and are wondering how they got so lucky. These statistics are pretty much just complete speculations meant to be taken as 'well that's interesting'.
AtheistAlias 3 years ago 2
I think it's tough to so easily dismiss the probability argument with a "that's interesting but no more" approach. No matter who you go to the question of the existence of the universe poses a huge enigma. It seems to me that the combination of Fred Hoyle/Emile Borel and others puts atheists in this position . . . we acknowledge that the odds of the universe coming into being are fantastically small . . . but we choose to believe it anyway. I would say that is faith and faith on a high order.
natwood57 3 years ago
Oh? Well take a step back and think of the chances that you were born. Fantastically small when looked at in the same way. Or did god intervene there too? If so, where's the free will of your parents that we're all supposed to have?
The 'chances' of something happening in a particular way are irrelavant when a particular outcome isn't actually needed.
AtheistAlias 3 years ago
Perhaps the question is less, "what are the chances you were born?" then it is "what are the chances that we would ever have a life producing universe? A universe at all? A sustainable and ordered universe? A universe where there was such a thing as parents, procreation, and, dare I say it, love?
natwood57 3 years ago
The Tornado in the Junkyard Analogy that you attribute to a " Hindu professor of statistics" is from Fred Hoyle's book The Intelligent Universe. Hoyle intended this as an argument against abiogenesis.
Where on Earth did you get the idea that it was from some (random) Hindu professor?
Edella 3 years ago
Hey Edeila, thanks for the correction. You're right. I went back to some stuff I'd written a few years ago & saw the Hoyle footnote. I think "the Hindu professor thing" comes from an attempt to describe Hoyle's number (1x10 to the 40,000th power).
Emile Borel, the great French scientist, stated that any event requiring a greater than 1 x 10 to the 50th power just doesn't happen. So, we are left at the same place. What's the greater liklihood? I vote . . . God.
natwood57 3 years ago
Your use of an arguement that has been soundly disproven is typical of your ilk. If you would like to see this "fact" systematically disproven, I suggest you watch thunderf00t's Why People Laugh at Creationists series, where he specifically targets this probability nonsense. Even if you do believe this drivel, and it really is, this in no way vindicates the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, or as I like to call him, the imaginary friend for adults.
rednavy5 3 years ago
Rednavy I think you are attempting to simply dismiss the question rather than honestly deal with it. No matter how you calculate it, the odds of the existence of an ordered universe are fantastically small. You may wnat to check out Emile Borel on this. The existence of God is at the very least a credible intellectual possibility when considering the questions posed by the existence of the universe . . . &, for the moment, the question is not the Judeo-Christian God but just a Creator.
natwood57 3 years ago