2 Thess.2:9-10 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED.
HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!? These verses alone destroy Calvinisms Limited Atonement. There is NO rebuttal or "Mystery".
The difference? Easy. Calvinism is about the sole christian theology out there - probably even the sole theology period - that teaches God not just allows, but COMMANDS and WILLS evil and sin. I know the card-carrying members of The Elect Club will bludgeon me over the head with a melange of cryptogrammatical exegesis and beastly shouts of 'heretic!', but come on... let's be fair shall we? That is what Calvinism logically boils down to.
@Wbeard92 The Bible say those predestined to be save are those who believe!!! NOT arbitrary individuals for NO reason as Calvinism says. Calvinism is a heresy. The Church was predestined before the foundation of the world...you can join the Church thru faith. Salvation is NOT unconditional!
@willpower242 If you look at the context of the verses it is talking about individuals. Actually the five points armenianism are quite wrong. A good example of predestination of a people group would be the israelites. They where the only group that was the people of God. God has only selected some to be saved. That is why the bible says things like "for many are called but few are choosen". Armenian thought makes salvation a work that man does, not a work of God.
@Wbeard92 1.) The entire issue of eschatological salvation cannot be paired with the Old Testament concept of the predestination of the Israelites; eschatological salvation simply does not come into focus there. Which is why, for instance, both the righteous and the evil kings we read about in the Books of Kings and Chronicles, are said to have gone 'to rest with their fathers', which is eschatologically neutral.
@Wbeard92 2.) It is Arminian, not Armenian. 3.) The five points of Calvinism are all easily refuted, mostly because they incorporate wholly unscriptural terms ('unconditonal', 'limited', 'irrisistible') with scriptural ones (election, atonement, grace). The greatest problem of Calvinism, however, remains that it makes God the author of sin, which is akin to blasphemy.
John Calvin may have been intelligent, but he clearly missed some things. One thing is infant baptism. The bible does not teach infant baptism, but Calvin does. Calvin was characterized often by his harshness. The 5 points of Calvinism can easily be dissproved. For example, Limited Atonement. Christ died only for the elect? Don't think so. Read the scriptures and you will see that is totally odious to truth.
Here is a question for you Mark. If Hell is real and you are a Calvinist, were you "responsible" for getting into heaven? Then why do you take the responsibility for those going to Hell away from God and put it on those you say are going to Hell? Is God "sovereign" only over the "elect?"
Matthew 18:14 "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.........they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped...every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
The Calvinist god, purposely Decreeds for Man to come into Existance DEAD, INVOLUNTARILY created for Hell from the moment of conception, having NO ABILITY to repent or beg for mercy, the vast majority FATED for DAMNATION, PREDESTINED to burn forever, CHOSEN for Eternal Punishment, "Before having done anything either good or bad" for "His good pleasure"
Calvinism is simply religious elitism; claiming for themselves the love of God and declaring God's indifference, or more obviously hate, toward anyone who disagrees with them. Driscoll clearly worships Calvin. I'd prefer to worship God.
@crcwoot I wouldn't say elitism.. as the guy says it is an in house debate among christians. I 'm not clear on it my self. How can a nonbeliver who "is dead in trespasses and sin"(Eph2:1) express free will toward God. To be spiritually dead means one cannot respond . Jesus says no one can come to the Father unless the Father "draws him"(Jn6:44). That sounds like God doing the choosing. Are the unchosen blameless because they were not called???
@crcwoot If you actually go through and listen to his sermons you would say that nonsense. Driscoll is talking about it because the whole sermon is about predestination. No calvinism isn't religious elitism. Actually from the study I have done it is pretty spot on. The bible clearly says that some are predestined to be saved (Romans 8, Ephesians 1:5) Actually the whole free will thing armenians argue for is biblical. You aren't free to choose. You will decide based upon your nature.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You where born in sin, and there for you will only choose that which agrees with your nature. Let me ask you this, who predestined you to question the word of God?
@Wbeard92 That's not answering my question... Who predestined this nature? Who predestined human beings to 'choose only that which agrees with their nature'?
"I pray not only for these, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, SO THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that you have sent me."
WHY did Jesus ONLY pray for Believers? "...SO THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that you have sent me." v23 "...SO THAT THE WORLD may KNOW that you have sent me."
Matthew 13:13He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.(JESUS ONLY PRAYS FOR THE ONES GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER) I pray for them I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me,
Romans 9: 10-21 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who call Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."(THEY DID NOTHING)
That God who "is love" created people and predestined them to everlasting torture is preposterous. How can I sing his praise knowing that he made some people just so he could torment them forever? I reject this, and so does the scripture."Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD."
@nrolett God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves there. God didn't create people for hell, it was made for Satan and his demons. Jesus Christ warned us of hell in the Bible and did tell us that we would have to be born again. If we don't follow God in this life how can we share in his glory in the here after? Then people would say God is a control freak. You really should read that bible that you're quoting from. Yes, through Christ sin was taken away, accept Christ.
@bodom71 I have read and studied the Bible for over 30 years.I am all too familiar with the talking points you express, and once used them myself.But when you strip away the mistranslations and distortions of hundreds of years of tradition and dogma,your doctrine of eternal torture disappears from the scripture.If the vast majority of humans don't make it, and are estranged from God and tortured forever, then how is God the victor?Doesn't Satan win in that scenario?God saves all eventually.
@nrolett All the questions you have and your comments, I can tell you have not studied the Bible. Show me the chapter and verse that supports your thoery of everyone gets saved? You do mean heretics, Atheists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons right? All those people go to heaven? Nonsense!!
@bodom71 Please don't call me a liar.I am a dedicated student of the Bible, and have been for decades.Not room here for the literally scores of scriptures that prove my assertion,but I'll give you 3: "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."(Rom 11:32) "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."(1 John 2:2)
@nrolett Friend, in no way did I call you a liar. All these scriptures you gave me are correct, if one is born again. (John 3:1-7). Also, in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, For whosoever BELIEVETH in Him will have everlasting life. They don't mean believeing in Him But, ON Him. Any heretic, Athiest, JW, Mormon, SDA, and so on can be saved if they become born again. In Romans it says "no one is righteous no not one". Thats why we need Christ.
@bodom71 You said I had not studied the Bible after I said that I had for 30 years. And of course no one will be saved without accepting Christ.But the idea that death is the cut-off is something that people assume because of blatant mistranslations of the Greek text. Yes, the world needs Christ.And we drive them away with our teaching that God threatens them with everlasting torture if they don't love him.There is punishment after death for the unrepentant, but it is corrective and finite.
@nrolett But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.(Rom. 5:8) Since the book Genesis people have disobeyed God, walked away from Him and spat in His face. If you want to blame someone for eternal torture and hell blame Satan, he's the one at fault!! He was the cause of it, if it hadn't been for Satan none of us would be going. We have to explain to the person why it is the way it is. As for the 30 years you've studied u should know.
@bodom71 I could predict every pat explanation you will give.I know all these talking points,and I used them myself before I found out what the Bible actually says.Did Satan get the jump on God?Is God not sovreign?Does Satan succeed in stealing away the vast majority of the souls God created?No.Jesus came and died to save the world, and he did not fail in his mission.You can't accept it now,but the true Good News is better than the one you preach.Read 1John 2:2 again and tell me what it means.
@nrolett You might want to read the rest of what's underneath that verse, yes Jesus took the sins of the world away for those who obey and follow Him, if you do not you will not take part in His glory. I'm just not convinced that EVERYONE of other false religions the bible warns us of you will not go to heaven, you chose to believe in lies. Satan wins in people who don't know or want to know the truth, that's why we have to explain it to them. You sound like Rob Bell the deciever!!
@MrSlippin22 Only if the person is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ will be saved. Anyone can go to heaven, but in order to do that, you need to believe that there is a God and that Jesus Christ lived, died, was buried and rose again. And you need to commit your life to him and be born again.
@MrSlippin22 Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lordand believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
how does that birth come from God? sounds to me like thats an action on a persons part.you cant believe if God dont make you born again. to believe ( faith) is a gift given from God Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. we cant have faith if God dont make you born again.
@MrSlippin22 The bible doesn't lie my friend. When you confess to the Lord and repent with your own mouth, that is the first step of faith. He reaches out to us everyday, everywhere to everyone, but if we decide we want Christ in our lives we have to reach up. It's called free will, If God saved us all no matter what we believe, or even if we don't believe at all, then that would make us robots. Acts 2:21 "But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
must be born again of the spirit or your calling into empty air and God is not hearing it
1 Corinthians 12:3 no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?( God allows belief you cant do it) . He dont love everyone. He elects only those he loves,
@MrSlippin22 So, you're a Calvinist? I'm sorry to tell you this but when you're praying, God does hear prayer. So, then I guess by your standards the John 3:16 should read " For God so loved (the elect) that he gave His only begotten son, that (Only the elect) shall believe in Him, shall have eternal life. Not everyone will be saved, and that's sad but it says the world and whosoever. The Holy Spirit comes after salvation when you believe.
Not just the Jews but also the gentiles (WHOLE WORLD NOT EVERY INDIVIDUAL) Romans 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles .Thankfully God has elect in the whole world. see when God made us gentile Elect clean with Peters vision in Acts 10
@MrSlippin22 Jesus gave His life for the whole world, there will be people who reach out to Christ to be saved, not everyone will be saved, sadly. But, if someone asks to be saved God will not turn His ear. People aren't "automatically" saved, you have to call on the name of the Lord.
did you miss this? John 17- I pray for them I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me. Jesus dont want everyone to know the secrets of the word of God. and he s not talking about people who dont get on there knees and ask Jesus into there hearts hes talking about the non elect,
The hardest to reach place for Jesus in Europe is..... Holland....and in America.... New England... Whenever Calvinism is taught people revolt against Christianity.
Read Getting the Gospel Right by C. Gordon Olsen.
A question for you Mark. If Calvinist are born again christians, are they "responsible" for getting into heaven? Then why do you take the responsibility for those going to Hell away from God and put it on those you say are going to Hell? Is God "sovereign" only over the "elect?"
Calvinism is 'another gospel' my brother, it's distinctives are unbiblical........the gospel is worth defending to the death. Keep studying to show yourself approved (1 Tim 2:15) so you are not ashamed in the future, RIGHTLY divide the truth.
God does not cause a person to sin and then send him to Hell for it. Get those books I mentioned. God's best to you and yours.
You know what? Arguing like this does nothing to spread the gospel. Saying a person's belief system is one of Satan's favorite religions is not going to win people to your argument, nor is my counter argument going to do anything for anybody. We're just arguing into the dirt, and not carrying out the great commission. I will pray to repent from this foolish arguing, and friend, I call you to do so as well.
Two books that lay out the inconsistentcy of Calvinism beautifully........Troubling Questions for Calvinists by LaGard Smith and The Dark Side of Calvinism by George Bryson. I consider these must reads for anyone considering Calvinism or who is trapped in it's clutches now.
Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved or Double Pre Destination: Revelations 3:5 They that overcome I will not blot their name out of the Book of Life (paraphrased) If you name is in the Book of Life then you are Saved, if God Blots it out does not mean you were not Saved, it means you lost your salvation! Live Daily for Christ, I do not work my way into Heaven and God does not Choose just a few: John 3:16: Whosoever will IS FOR EVERYONE NOT AN ELECT. Eternal Security stinks from HELL!
Romans 9. That chapter of the bible gives argument to God's sovereign choice. In fact, in most bibles, that's the title if the first section! In light of that, repenting of Calvinism in my opinion denies the sovereignty of God. Repenting of Calvinism means that I would have to say that Jesus did not seek me out, and I came on my own, that my righteousness is on my own merit, which outrightly rejects what Paul teaches in Romans 9:16. So in recap, I would deny that God is sovereign,
God does NOT give us faith......He requires faith from us ....we need to believe!! This is typical Calvinistic misinterpertation!! Dont be ashamed, rightly divide the Word of Truth, 2 Tim 2:15.
For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (your) faith. And this is not of your own doing (salvation is of the Lord, faith is NOT a work!!!); it (salvation) is the gift of God, not the results of works (FAITH IS NOT A WORK!!!) so that no one may boast.
@willpower242 So your argument says: We have to have faith in God, which is something that we do, which is a work, and later on you emphatically say that faith isn't a work. I'm confused.
Two books that lay out the inconsistentcy of Calvinism beautifully........Troubling Questions for Calvinists by LaGard Smith and The Dark Side of Calvinism by George Bryson. I consider these must reads for anyone considering Calvinism or who is trapped in it's clutches now.
Ummmmm......John Calvin was a gifted Bible teacher in some areas but I dont think ANYONE in the history of the Church has caused more confusion in the Church. Calvinism is a heresy and should be soundly rejected, it's distinctives are unbiblical. For example salvation is conditional not unconditional (Acts 16:31 and Rom 10:9) atonement is unlimited not limited (John 1:29 and 1John 2:2) and grace is resistible not irresistible (Luke 13:34).
Calvinism blasphemes God accusing Him of causing sin.
For WHAT PURPOSE would Jesus warn us in Mark 9:42 about being a CAUSE of Sin for those little ones who believe in him to Sin, when Calvinism says GOD is the ULTIMATE CAUSE of ALL SIN & ULTIMATE SOURCE DETERMINING whether one of his little ones DOES or does NOT Sin?
According to Calvinism, who CAUSALLY & SOVEREIGNLY DETERMINES that little ones who believe in him WILL SIN?
God is the ULTIMATE CAUSE of "WHATSOEVER comes to pass"
reason i cant accept calvinism. John 3:16, and 2 Peter 3:9 "...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
completely contradicts any 5 point calvinist. you cant read those and see limited atonement. so God is not willing that any should perish, but made millions to die and go to hell?
I ask a question. If man is destined for hell before he is born, and can have no opportunity to repent, HOW IS IT HIS FAULT!? I dont get it. calvinism makes god a cruel monster
@KJVpreacher4christ Hey brother, I once had the same questions you have and they are very good questions to ask. I will say, however, that there are answers to those questions. I understand if you oppose reformed theology for I did for a large portion of my Christian walk and life. Before I begin, I just want to echo Driscoll and say, both camps are evangelical and orthodox. I want to prevent hateful people from responding to me and demonizing others.
@KJVpreacher4christ Continuing from my post below. God does desire for all men to repent, but Rom 9 says that he has a greater desire for his own glory by displaying his justice and mercy in vessels that he created and has the right to do what he pleases with. My wife puts it this way, "I desire to eat all the chocolate in the world, but I have a greater desire not to get fat." "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Prov 16:4 KJV
@lbsquaredbear Last, although God is sovereign, the Bible teaches that man is still responsible. I know this is a tension that our finite minds find hard to grasp, but I ask that you read Rom. 9 again.
The thing that changed my mind on the issue was not taking a man's position on this, but going to the text and letting the avalanche of scriptures in light of their context change my mind. Again, I used to feel the same way, so I understand the tension you feel.
If a parent sees a child run out into the middle of a highway will a loving parent "let him choose" or will the parent "impose his will on the child to save him". Think about it...
The Calvinist and the Arminians have beautiful theologies:A-God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian theology) B-God is Sovereign and all powerful:there he will accomplish all that he wills or desires(Calvinist theology);Since God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian theology)and he has the power to accomplish this desire(Calvinist theology),dosen't it seem logical that God will accomplish this desire(the salvation of everyone)? Isn't the combination of A and B Biblical Universalism?
@741rjohnson When you have two extremes, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.The truth is, God wants to save everyone, AND he has the power to do it. "It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’”(Rom 14:11) In the age to come, God's love AND his judgements will rehabilitate even the most rebelious sinner. And he will "have mercy on them all." (Rom 11:32). This is the real "good news for all people."(Luke 2:10)
@nrolett You are correct. The Arminians and Calvinist have beautiful theologies.God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian). God is all powerful therefore he will accomplish all that he desires(Calvinist).Both are scriptural.Isn't the combination of their theologies Biblical Universal Universalism? because they believe in eternal punishment they have to reject or explain away the glorious side of each other's theology.You are correct. The truth is in the middle(Universalism).
For your last question, it really doesn't exclude calvinism at all.. Whoever believes in Christ will be saved. It is impossible for someone who has not be called to believe in Christ. For your middle question, your whole viewpoint is wrong.. God is sovereign and as man we are all guilty of rebelling and and sinning against the most high God. None of us deserve salvation. I don't think people really understand that idea. How merciful is God that he choses to save even one of us
And to your first question. This passage gives an example of why we should, from God's own mouth, and it also shows God's election :And for your first question:And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.” And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. (Acts 18:9-11)
@luisito022002 Go read Romans 9 as a foundation. Obviously those questions are to long to answere so here are some books. "Freedom of the Will", "Gods Sovereignty" By RCSproul, "Desiring God" By John Piper, "Gods Sovereignty in evangelism" By Packer, and Wayne Grudems "Systematic Theology". THis is actually very beautiful when the Lord reveals it too you.
@luisito022002 Also, If a parent sees a child run out into the middle of a highway will a loving parent "let him choose" or will the parent "impose his will on the child to save him". Think about it...God bless you brother!
I do not aggree with Calvinism but I profoundly appreciate Mark Driscoll's kind and loving tone in this video. I was surprised because I am not used to hearing Calvinists talk like this. I know Driscoll wont read this but: Thank you, Mark. It was so heart-warming to hear that someone like me (non-Calvinist) would still be welcomed to be a member of your church. I wish you knew what that just did to me...
It already fits for me. Give me verses that support otherwise and I'd be happy to look at them, but I've done extensive research and went from Arminianism to Calvinism. It's not worth splitting hairs over and I respect your belief.
Romans 9:19-21 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
I agree, we all fall short of the glory of the Lord and should be in hell. For those who God does elect to save, it's all by his grace and mercy. The ONLY problem I had with the video is there was no biblical verses to back up election and there are so many. We used to believe the Arminianism doctrine until we did extensive research. In response to someones question why witness? Because we are commanded to and God uses us somehow to bring the elect? I don't know, but we're commanded to.
It is not arbitrary because it is based on God's will and the infinite wisdom of God, as we have already developed. The Bible is very clear - God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy - it is not our decision. God is indeed just in that He sent His Son to die on the cross for select persons that He "might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." If Jesus died for every person than every person would go to heaven. You can call it unfair if you like, but it is not unjust.
John Calvin... the same man who murdered Michael Servetus.
by the way, Calvinism did not start with John Calvin. It started with Augustine. John Calvin admits that in his own writings... what ppl dont realize is that the roots of Calvinism is not Christianity. It's Gnosticism. Calvinism did not even exist in the church until Augustine... for 300 yrs, no one ever taught the basic concepts of TULIP... they were all Non-Calvinists,
@98nafets Can you define free will for me please? And can you tell me if this is what you are referring to when you say that calvinism is the ultimate form of favoritism: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" or "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy"? In your opinion, is that God playing favorites?
@greenlj91 If I were to hold to your interpretations of those verses, yeah, that would be God playing favorites. But such a God wouldn't be just and thus not the God of the Bible.
@98nafets And what is my interpretation of those verses? It might be more helpful if you give your interpretation and how this is not "favoritism" rather than insinuating that you know what I believe.
Your interpretation is one in line with Calvinism (unless your a troll looking to start arguments).
"It might be more helpful if you give your interpretation and how this is not "favoritism""
Ok, God is picking who will go to Heaven not based on anything but his own will. How is that not favoritism? Those who do go to Heaven are no more deserving of those who don't.
@98nafets If that is your interpretation of those verses, than you hold to the Calvinistic interpretation. God saves based upon His free choice, not based upon human will. No one deserves heaven - because we are all totally depraved, we have the nature of our father Adam. Thus, God's choice (election) is the sole determining factor of our salvation. If this is not true, then there are other factors, other than God's own will, that would influence God's choice (aka Armenianism).
@greenlj91 My point was that such an interpretation of those verses would show favoritism. "If this is not true, then there are other factors, other than God's own will, that would influence God's choice"
So do you think God doesn't want everyone to be saved? God's choice would be for all to be saved, but we must freely choose him. He wants a loving relationship with us, and a loving relationship cannot exist where there is no choice.
@98nafets What other interpretation is there of those verses? Forgive me, I'm not understanding if you agree with that interpretation or not. Note: no one is disagreeing that you will not love God; you will if you are a Christian. But where does that love come from? It is not of us - love is a fruit of the Spirit. The Bible says we are all haters of God! My view is the God is able to save to the uttermost. If it were God's will for all men to be saved, all men would go to heaven.
@98nafets What other interpretation is there of those verses? Forgive me, I'm not understanding if you agree with that interpretation or not. Note: no one is disagreeing that you will not love God; you will if you are a Christian. But where does that love come from? It is not of us - love is a fruit of the Spirit. The Bible says we are all haters of God! My view is the God is able to save to the uttermost. If it were God's will for all men to be saved, all men would go to heaven.
@greenlj91 "If it were God's will for all men to be saved, all men would go to heaven. "
So under your view, God created people just to send them to Hell? Why would God create someone if he didn't want them in Heaven? I agree that we can only come to God if he draws us, but he has drawn all people. We just choose to reject him. I don't hold to the idea of irresistible grace because such a doctrine destroys the idea of love for God. How can love be real if it is completely forced?
@98nafets Did Lazurus not love Jesus when Jesus called him forth out of the grave? Jesus didn't ask him if he wanted to be resurrected - it would do no good to ask a dead man so it was "forced" upon him! This is a picture of salvation. We are all dead in sins the Bible says - haters of God, at enmity with God, deceitful and wicked, out of the human heart comes all manners of evil things! It is deceitful and wicked above all things. We would all reject him, if left up to us.
@98nafets To bring this full circle, this is why God is so gracious in saving people! There is literally nothing in ourselves (not even a decision) that causes Him to save us. It is His choosing alone - and that should humble us. We can all, as believers, say that God saved us, though we deserved His wrath, and God gets all the glory for it. How our love is spurned knowing that Jesus died to save a wretch like me! Real love only originates in God, and He must grant it to our stone cold hearts.
@greenlj91 "He must grant it to our stone cold hearts."
Then why doesn't he grant that to all people? I agree with what you said, I believe in total depravity, just not irresistible grace. Why should God pick me but not someone else? Sure it might be humbling, but it's fundamentally unfair. How can such a God be just? We've all committed sins, yet God only offers redemption to an arbitrary few? God absolutely has the right to do that, but if He does, then He can't be described as just.
@98nafets Do you want God to be fair? We would all be in hell. God's justice demands that he punish sin. But in His great mercy, He has chosen to send His Son to take the punishment of His elect. Thus, he made some people to be trophies of His mercy, grace and lovingkindness and others He made as a trophy of His justice. It is too long to post here, but read Romans 9:22-23. God's grace it is not arbitrary - "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." (Rom. 9:15).
@greenlj91 "God's grace it is not arbitrary - "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." "
How is that not arbitrary?
So people are now trophies? Jesus died on the Cross for trophies? Who is God trying to show these trophies to?
We were all made to glorify God, and God has drawn us all to Him, we have chosen to reject or accept him. If we didn't have that choice, God wouldn't be just and our love for him would be forced, and forced love is no love at all.
I would call some aspects of these doctrines Second-Level importance re: theology. Which Mark echoes by saying that both are Christians as long as they agree on the First-Level importance doctrines.
I have no problem with Calvinism at all except for the fact that it seems that many of them often stress God's sovereignty so much that it's unclear whether they believe man is a free moral agent--which he would HAVE to be in order to be judged and take responsibility for his choices. It has to fit.
"The crux theologorum" or the cross of the theologian. It occurs when one tries to reconcile two Scriptural teachings "gratia universalis" 1 Tim 2:4 and "sola gratia" Eph 2:8-9. According to Scripture salvation is all God's doing from beginning to end and God wills all men to saved. According to Scripture if we are believers all glory goes to God and if we are unbelievers all blame goes to us. Not reasonable but Scriptural and it is what orthodox, confessional Lutherans believe.
@torkelson100 Calvinists deny the clear Scriptural teaching of gratia universal and Arminians deny the clear Scriptural teaching of sola gratia. Both are reasonable but not Scriptural. Both are an attempt to fit the thoughts of the infinite God into our finite heads. Let God be God and submit to His word whether it makes sense to us or not 2 Cor 10:5. Let God's majesty remain. The cross of the theologian makes perfect sense to Him as does the Trinity, incarnation and the theodicy.
Eph4:14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;YOU know the Jehovah Witnesses also have scriptures that fit their doctrine create a Bible that fits the scriptures;;.all is not all every is not every world is not world so write the bible according to Calvin Cause it is that doctrine that saves not Jesus Christ.
im very much calvinist, however... i see things slightly diffrent, cause im not a theological drone.
The way i see it, is that free will is not the issue really, the issue is that man prefer's sin over God, and unless God moves upon our hearts by a divine act, and give us new hearts, and a new nature, we shall rightfully parish, they say you must believe in Christ to be born of the spirit, but i believe the truth is you must be born of the spirit, to believe unto eternal life...
i also believe, that other than this divine act of being born of the Spirit, without it, all a man has is a human acknowledgment of Christ, and is not a true and living faith of the Spirit, i like to call this 'Human Faith' and is not a divine faith, which only comes by the Spirit, to whom ever he wills on earth.
When John the baptist said that he shall baptise you with fire and the holy ghost, that was not poetry....and to the pentacostal, ye shall know them by their fruits, not their gifts.
I was baptised by fire and the Holy Ghost, im a living witness of that, and ive had foolish pentacostals tell me i wasnt born of the Spirit, simply because i did not speak in a toungue, shame on them, ye shall know them by their fruits, not thier gifts,,,,,, errgh, i hope a pentacostal reads this and repents of that un-biblical non-sense of tongues...
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones
2 Thess.2:9-10 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED.
HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!? These verses alone destroy Calvinisms Limited Atonement. There is NO rebuttal or "Mystery".
GAME OVER
Isaiah1v18 22 hours ago
I always wanted to know the difference between Arminiansm and Calvinism and Mark Driscoll did a great job here explaining their basic differences.
opsvideo2008 1 day ago
The difference? Easy. Calvinism is about the sole christian theology out there - probably even the sole theology period - that teaches God not just allows, but COMMANDS and WILLS evil and sin. I know the card-carrying members of The Elect Club will bludgeon me over the head with a melange of cryptogrammatical exegesis and beastly shouts of 'heretic!', but come on... let's be fair shall we? That is what Calvinism logically boils down to.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 days ago
Yeah, Jonah says "salvation is of the LORD" but it was the Ninevites who freely repented and were saved - not by their own merits, but by God.
Oh, by the way God decided, afterall, not to destroy Nineveh because of their repentance.
DanPrinMan 1 week ago
I'm Wesleyan and I thought about naming my son Luther or Calvin. What side am I on, aye?
DanPrinMan 1 week ago
@Wbeard92 The Bible say those predestined to be save are those who believe!!! NOT arbitrary individuals for NO reason as Calvinism says. Calvinism is a heresy. The Church was predestined before the foundation of the world...you can join the Church thru faith. Salvation is NOT unconditional!
willpower242 2 weeks ago
@willpower242 If you look at the context of the verses it is talking about individuals. Actually the five points armenianism are quite wrong. A good example of predestination of a people group would be the israelites. They where the only group that was the people of God. God has only selected some to be saved. That is why the bible says things like "for many are called but few are choosen". Armenian thought makes salvation a work that man does, not a work of God.
Wbeard92 2 days ago
@Wbeard92 1.) The entire issue of eschatological salvation cannot be paired with the Old Testament concept of the predestination of the Israelites; eschatological salvation simply does not come into focus there. Which is why, for instance, both the righteous and the evil kings we read about in the Books of Kings and Chronicles, are said to have gone 'to rest with their fathers', which is eschatologically neutral.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 days ago
@Wbeard92 2.) It is Arminian, not Armenian. 3.) The five points of Calvinism are all easily refuted, mostly because they incorporate wholly unscriptural terms ('unconditonal', 'limited', 'irrisistible') with scriptural ones (election, atonement, grace). The greatest problem of Calvinism, however, remains that it makes God the author of sin, which is akin to blasphemy.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 days ago
John Calvin may have been intelligent, but he clearly missed some things. One thing is infant baptism. The bible does not teach infant baptism, but Calvin does. Calvin was characterized often by his harshness. The 5 points of Calvinism can easily be dissproved. For example, Limited Atonement. Christ died only for the elect? Don't think so. Read the scriptures and you will see that is totally odious to truth.
MilanPavkovic1 3 weeks ago
Here is a question for you Mark. If Hell is real and you are a Calvinist, were you "responsible" for getting into heaven? Then why do you take the responsibility for those going to Hell away from God and put it on those you say are going to Hell? Is God "sovereign" only over the "elect?"
SwordofManticorE 3 weeks ago
nice, i've debated this in my mind many, many times ....r.c. sproll whom i listen to daily has made me an almost calvinist
nellyboyles 4 weeks ago
@nellyboyles Keep listening and reading your Bible and the Holy Spirit will teach you the rest of the way.God Bless
CBALLEN 3 weeks ago
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MrJazzeman 1 month ago
Matthew 18:14 "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
harvestsoulfly 1 month ago
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John Calvin- The Devil's Favorite Tool
youtube.com/watch?v=nCiPMbaymzs&list=LLHZJM5Cm5afmRIN3BEqe5Mg&index=2&feature=plpp_video
This video is must see. John Calvin is probably not who you think he is.
willpower242 1 month ago
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Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.........they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped...every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
willpower242 1 month ago
The Calvinist god, purposely Decreeds for Man to come into Existance DEAD, INVOLUNTARILY created for Hell from the moment of conception, having NO ABILITY to repent or beg for mercy, the vast majority FATED for DAMNATION, PREDESTINED to burn forever, CHOSEN for Eternal Punishment, "Before having done anything either good or bad" for "His good pleasure"
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
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MrJazzeman 1 month ago
Calvinism is simply religious elitism; claiming for themselves the love of God and declaring God's indifference, or more obviously hate, toward anyone who disagrees with them. Driscoll clearly worships Calvin. I'd prefer to worship God.
crcwoot 1 month ago
@crcwoot I wouldn't say elitism.. as the guy says it is an in house debate among christians. I 'm not clear on it my self. How can a nonbeliver who "is dead in trespasses and sin"(Eph2:1) express free will toward God. To be spiritually dead means one cannot respond . Jesus says no one can come to the Father unless the Father "draws him"(Jn6:44). That sounds like God doing the choosing. Are the unchosen blameless because they were not called???
MrHoopler 1 month ago
@crcwoot If you actually go through and listen to his sermons you would say that nonsense. Driscoll is talking about it because the whole sermon is about predestination. No calvinism isn't religious elitism. Actually from the study I have done it is pretty spot on. The bible clearly says that some are predestined to be saved (Romans 8, Ephesians 1:5) Actually the whole free will thing armenians argue for is biblical. You aren't free to choose. You will decide based upon your nature.
Wbeard92 3 weeks ago
@Wbeard92 Do tell who predestined human nature to be as it is.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 days ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You where born in sin, and there for you will only choose that which agrees with your nature. Let me ask you this, who predestined you to question the word of God?
Wbeard92 2 days ago
@Wbeard92 That's not answering my question... Who predestined this nature? Who predestined human beings to 'choose only that which agrees with their nature'?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 2 days ago
@Mr Slipp
Finish his prayer...
"I pray not only for these, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, SO THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that you have sent me."
WHY did Jesus ONLY pray for Believers? "...SO THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that you have sent me." v23 "...SO THAT THE WORLD may KNOW that you have sent me."
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
Matthew 13:13He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
John 17:6-19
"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.(JESUS ONLY PRAYS FOR THE ONES GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER) I pray for them I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me,
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
Romans 9: 10-21 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who call Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."(THEY DID NOTHING)
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
That God who "is love" created people and predestined them to everlasting torture is preposterous. How can I sing his praise knowing that he made some people just so he could torment them forever? I reject this, and so does the scripture."Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD."
nrolett 1 month ago
@nrolett God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves there. God didn't create people for hell, it was made for Satan and his demons. Jesus Christ warned us of hell in the Bible and did tell us that we would have to be born again. If we don't follow God in this life how can we share in his glory in the here after? Then people would say God is a control freak. You really should read that bible that you're quoting from. Yes, through Christ sin was taken away, accept Christ.
bodom71 1 month ago
@bodom71 I have read and studied the Bible for over 30 years.I am all too familiar with the talking points you express, and once used them myself.But when you strip away the mistranslations and distortions of hundreds of years of tradition and dogma,your doctrine of eternal torture disappears from the scripture.If the vast majority of humans don't make it, and are estranged from God and tortured forever, then how is God the victor?Doesn't Satan win in that scenario?God saves all eventually.
nrolett 1 month ago
@nrolett All the questions you have and your comments, I can tell you have not studied the Bible. Show me the chapter and verse that supports your thoery of everyone gets saved? You do mean heretics, Atheists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons right? All those people go to heaven? Nonsense!!
bodom71 1 month ago
@bodom71 Please don't call me a liar.I am a dedicated student of the Bible, and have been for decades.Not room here for the literally scores of scriptures that prove my assertion,but I'll give you 3: "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."(Rom 11:32) "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."(1 John 2:2)
nrolett 1 month ago
@nrolett Friend, in no way did I call you a liar. All these scriptures you gave me are correct, if one is born again. (John 3:1-7). Also, in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, For whosoever BELIEVETH in Him will have everlasting life. They don't mean believeing in Him But, ON Him. Any heretic, Athiest, JW, Mormon, SDA, and so on can be saved if they become born again. In Romans it says "no one is righteous no not one". Thats why we need Christ.
bodom71 1 month ago
@bodom71 You said I had not studied the Bible after I said that I had for 30 years. And of course no one will be saved without accepting Christ.But the idea that death is the cut-off is something that people assume because of blatant mistranslations of the Greek text. Yes, the world needs Christ.And we drive them away with our teaching that God threatens them with everlasting torture if they don't love him.There is punishment after death for the unrepentant, but it is corrective and finite.
nrolett 1 month ago
@nrolett But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.(Rom. 5:8) Since the book Genesis people have disobeyed God, walked away from Him and spat in His face. If you want to blame someone for eternal torture and hell blame Satan, he's the one at fault!! He was the cause of it, if it hadn't been for Satan none of us would be going. We have to explain to the person why it is the way it is. As for the 30 years you've studied u should know.
bodom71 1 month ago
@bodom71 I could predict every pat explanation you will give.I know all these talking points,and I used them myself before I found out what the Bible actually says.Did Satan get the jump on God?Is God not sovreign?Does Satan succeed in stealing away the vast majority of the souls God created?No.Jesus came and died to save the world, and he did not fail in his mission.You can't accept it now,but the true Good News is better than the one you preach.Read 1John 2:2 again and tell me what it means.
nrolett 1 month ago
@nrolett You might want to read the rest of what's underneath that verse, yes Jesus took the sins of the world away for those who obey and follow Him, if you do not you will not take part in His glory. I'm just not convinced that EVERYONE of other false religions the bible warns us of you will not go to heaven, you chose to believe in lies. Satan wins in people who don't know or want to know the truth, that's why we have to explain it to them. You sound like Rob Bell the deciever!!
bodom71 1 month ago
@nrolett I noticed I made a mistake I meant to say not everyone that follows false religions will go to heaven, they wont!!
bodom71 1 month ago
your right because the elect go to heaven regardless if they figure out a false teacher or not.
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
@MrSlippin22 Only if the person is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ will be saved. Anyone can go to heaven, but in order to do that, you need to believe that there is a God and that Jesus Christ lived, died, was buried and rose again. And you need to commit your life to him and be born again.
bodom71 1 month ago
and how does a person become born again when only God can do that? 1 Corinthians 12:3 no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
John 1:13 They are reborn--not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
@MrSlippin22 Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lordand believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
bodom71 1 month ago
how does that birth come from God? sounds to me like thats an action on a persons part.you cant believe if God dont make you born again. to believe ( faith) is a gift given from God Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. we cant have faith if God dont make you born again.
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
@MrSlippin22 The bible doesn't lie my friend. When you confess to the Lord and repent with your own mouth, that is the first step of faith. He reaches out to us everyday, everywhere to everyone, but if we decide we want Christ in our lives we have to reach up. It's called free will, If God saved us all no matter what we believe, or even if we don't believe at all, then that would make us robots. Acts 2:21 "But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
bodom71 1 month ago
must be born again of the spirit or your calling into empty air and God is not hearing it
1 Corinthians 12:3 no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?( God allows belief you cant do it) . He dont love everyone. He elects only those he loves,
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
@MrSlippin22 So, you're a Calvinist? I'm sorry to tell you this but when you're praying, God does hear prayer. So, then I guess by your standards the John 3:16 should read " For God so loved (the elect) that he gave His only begotten son, that (Only the elect) shall believe in Him, shall have eternal life. Not everyone will be saved, and that's sad but it says the world and whosoever. The Holy Spirit comes after salvation when you believe.
bodom71 1 month ago
Not just the Jews but also the gentiles (WHOLE WORLD NOT EVERY INDIVIDUAL) Romans 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles .Thankfully God has elect in the whole world. see when God made us gentile Elect clean with Peters vision in Acts 10
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
@MrSlippin22 Jesus gave His life for the whole world, there will be people who reach out to Christ to be saved, not everyone will be saved, sadly. But, if someone asks to be saved God will not turn His ear. People aren't "automatically" saved, you have to call on the name of the Lord.
bodom71 1 month ago
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did you miss this? John 17- I pray for them I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me. Jesus dont want everyone to know the secrets of the word of God. and he s not talking about people who dont get on there knees and ask Jesus into there hearts hes talking about the non elect,
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
@bodom71 Message me and I can explain further what I'm talking about. This format just doesn't afford the space.
nrolett 1 month ago
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Gothxha 1 month ago
The hardest to reach place for Jesus in Europe is..... Holland....and in America.... New England... Whenever Calvinism is taught people revolt against Christianity.
Read Getting the Gospel Right by C. Gordon Olsen.
Mark is not a consistent calvinist, thankfully
kennythekettle 1 month ago
A question for you Mark. If Calvinist are born again christians, are they "responsible" for getting into heaven? Then why do you take the responsibility for those going to Hell away from God and put it on those you say are going to Hell? Is God "sovereign" only over the "elect?"
SwordofManticorE 2 months ago
Look at Calvin's actions.
Look at Christ's actions.
Jesus said you'll know them by their fruit. John calvin was just another pharisee. I wouldn't base my doctrine off of a being.
That doesn't make arminianism right though.
SpaceAboveSky 2 months ago 2
@SpaceAboveSky
Amen
willpower242 2 months ago
John Calvin- The Devil's Favorite Tool
youtube.com/watch?v=nCiPMbaymzs&list=LLHZJM5Cm5afmRIN3BEqe5Mg&index=2&feature=plpp_video
willpower242 2 months ago
Calvinist mumbo jumbo..............classic vid.......
youtube.com/watch?v=AWCv_BdZu8o
willpower242 2 months ago
Watch the vids too!
willpower242 2 months ago
Calvinism is 'another gospel' my brother, it's distinctives are unbiblical........the gospel is worth defending to the death. Keep studying to show yourself approved (1 Tim 2:15) so you are not ashamed in the future, RIGHTLY divide the truth.
God does not cause a person to sin and then send him to Hell for it. Get those books I mentioned. God's best to you and yours.
willpower242 2 months ago
@willpower242
You know what? Arguing like this does nothing to spread the gospel. Saying a person's belief system is one of Satan's favorite religions is not going to win people to your argument, nor is my counter argument going to do anything for anybody. We're just arguing into the dirt, and not carrying out the great commission. I will pray to repent from this foolish arguing, and friend, I call you to do so as well.
JAREDKIRCH 2 months ago
@JAREDKIRCH
I dont understand your second question.
willpower242 2 months ago
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Two books that lay out the inconsistentcy of Calvinism beautifully........Troubling Questions for Calvinists by LaGard Smith and The Dark Side of Calvinism by George Bryson. I consider these must reads for anyone considering Calvinism or who is trapped in it's clutches now.
Wrong doctrine=Wrong living
willpower242 2 months ago
@willpower242 You did. You said, and I quote, "God requires faith from us." Which is a work.
JAREDKIRCH 2 months ago
Calvinism declares that God decrees men to sin and then punishes them in eternal Hell for the sin He decreed.....and who can resist His will?
willpower242 2 months ago
Another must see tv on the Pope of Geneva..........
.youtube.com/watch?v=nCiPMbaymzs&feature=autoplay&list=ULB-mf7OCVw1k&lf=like-suggest&playnext=4
willpower242 2 months ago
Follow the Bible and not Calvin!
FormerMPSGT 2 months ago 2
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Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved or Double Pre Destination: Revelations 3:5 They that overcome I will not blot their name out of the Book of Life (paraphrased) If you name is in the Book of Life then you are Saved, if God Blots it out does not mean you were not Saved, it means you lost your salvation! Live Daily for Christ, I do not work my way into Heaven and God does not Choose just a few: John 3:16: Whosoever will IS FOR EVERYONE NOT AN ELECT. Eternal Security stinks from HELL!
FormerMPSGT 2 months ago
Check this out .........it says it well....
youtube.com/watch?v=AWCv_BdZu8o&list=FLHZJM5Cm5afmRIN3BEqe5Mg&index=1&feature=plpp_video
willpower242 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
Romans 9. That chapter of the bible gives argument to God's sovereign choice. In fact, in most bibles, that's the title if the first section! In light of that, repenting of Calvinism in my opinion denies the sovereignty of God. Repenting of Calvinism means that I would have to say that Jesus did not seek me out, and I came on my own, that my righteousness is on my own merit, which outrightly rejects what Paul teaches in Romans 9:16. So in recap, I would deny that God is sovereign,
JAREDKIRCH 2 months ago
@JAREDKIRCH and deny the credibility of the Bible, two things that are blasphemous.
So, I will not "repent from Calvinism", because it isn't a sin to be a Calvinist.
JAREDKIRCH 2 months ago
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God does NOT give us faith......He requires faith from us ....we need to believe!! This is typical Calvinistic misinterpertation!! Dont be ashamed, rightly divide the Word of Truth, 2 Tim 2:15.
For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (your) faith. And this is not of your own doing (salvation is of the Lord, faith is NOT a work!!!); it (salvation) is the gift of God, not the results of works (FAITH IS NOT A WORK!!!) so that no one may boast.
willpower242 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
@willpower242 So your argument says: We have to have faith in God, which is something that we do, which is a work, and later on you emphatically say that faith isn't a work. I'm confused.
JAREDKIRCH 2 months ago
@JAREDKIRCH
Who told you faith is a work.........it is not a work........we simply believe we dont DO anything!
willpower242 2 months ago
Satans three favorite religions.........Secular Humanism, Islam amd Calvinism.
willpower242 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
Two books that lay out the inconsistentcy of Calvinism beautifully........Troubling Questions for Calvinists by LaGard Smith and The Dark Side of Calvinism by George Bryson. I consider these must reads for anyone considering Calvinism or who is trapped in it's clutches now.
Wrong doctrine=Wrong living
willpower242 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
Repent of Calvinism!!
willpower242 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
Ummmmm......John Calvin was a gifted Bible teacher in some areas but I dont think ANYONE in the history of the Church has caused more confusion in the Church. Calvinism is a heresy and should be soundly rejected, it's distinctives are unbiblical. For example salvation is conditional not unconditional (Acts 16:31 and Rom 10:9) atonement is unlimited not limited (John 1:29 and 1John 2:2) and grace is resistible not irresistible (Luke 13:34).
Calvinism blasphemes God accusing Him of causing sin.
willpower242 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
THIS IS GOOD.. JUST LOOK AT ALL THE DIFFERENT OPINIONS.. THEY JUST DON'T GET IT.. GOD IS GOOD..
davfrui 2 months ago
@KJVpreacher4christ
For WHAT PURPOSE would Jesus warn us in Mark 9:42 about being a CAUSE of Sin for those little ones who believe in him to Sin, when Calvinism says GOD is the ULTIMATE CAUSE of ALL SIN & ULTIMATE SOURCE DETERMINING whether one of his little ones DOES or does NOT Sin?
According to Calvinism, who CAUSALLY & SOVEREIGNLY DETERMINES that little ones who believe in him WILL SIN?
God is the ULTIMATE CAUSE of "WHATSOEVER comes to pass"
Isaiah1v18 2 months ago
reason i cant accept calvinism. John 3:16, and 2 Peter 3:9 "...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
completely contradicts any 5 point calvinist. you cant read those and see limited atonement. so God is not willing that any should perish, but made millions to die and go to hell?
I ask a question. If man is destined for hell before he is born, and can have no opportunity to repent, HOW IS IT HIS FAULT!? I dont get it. calvinism makes god a cruel monster
KJVpreacher4christ 2 months ago
Not limited atonement my b, i mean unconditional election
KJVpreacher4christ 2 months ago
@KJVpreacher4christ Hey brother, I once had the same questions you have and they are very good questions to ask. I will say, however, that there are answers to those questions. I understand if you oppose reformed theology for I did for a large portion of my Christian walk and life. Before I begin, I just want to echo Driscoll and say, both camps are evangelical and orthodox. I want to prevent hateful people from responding to me and demonizing others.
lbsquaredbear 2 months ago
@KJVpreacher4christ Continuing from my post below. God does desire for all men to repent, but Rom 9 says that he has a greater desire for his own glory by displaying his justice and mercy in vessels that he created and has the right to do what he pleases with. My wife puts it this way, "I desire to eat all the chocolate in the world, but I have a greater desire not to get fat." "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Prov 16:4 KJV
lbsquaredbear 2 months ago
@lbsquaredbear Last, although God is sovereign, the Bible teaches that man is still responsible. I know this is a tension that our finite minds find hard to grasp, but I ask that you read Rom. 9 again.
The thing that changed my mind on the issue was not taking a man's position on this, but going to the text and letting the avalanche of scriptures in light of their context change my mind. Again, I used to feel the same way, so I understand the tension you feel.
lbsquaredbear 2 months ago
@lbsquaredbear that is an amazing analogy. Can I use it?
JAREDKIRCH 2 months ago
@JAREDKIRCH Sure. ;)
lbsquaredbear 2 months ago
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If a parent sees a child run out into the middle of a highway will a loving parent "let him choose" or will the parent "impose his will on the child to save him". Think about it...
lowbattery34 2 months ago
The Calvinist and the Arminians have beautiful theologies:A-God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian theology) B-God is Sovereign and all powerful:there he will accomplish all that he wills or desires(Calvinist theology);Since God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian theology)and he has the power to accomplish this desire(Calvinist theology),dosen't it seem logical that God will accomplish this desire(the salvation of everyone)? Isn't the combination of A and B Biblical Universalism?
741rjohnson 3 months ago
@741rjohnson When you have two extremes, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.The truth is, God wants to save everyone, AND he has the power to do it. "It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’”(Rom 14:11) In the age to come, God's love AND his judgements will rehabilitate even the most rebelious sinner. And he will "have mercy on them all." (Rom 11:32). This is the real "good news for all people."(Luke 2:10)
nrolett 1 month ago
@nrolett You are correct. The Arminians and Calvinist have beautiful theologies.God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian). God is all powerful therefore he will accomplish all that he desires(Calvinist).Both are scriptural.Isn't the combination of their theologies Biblical Universal Universalism? because they believe in eternal punishment they have to reject or explain away the glorious side of each other's theology.You are correct. The truth is in the middle(Universalism).
741rjohnson 1 month ago
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741rjohnson 3 months ago
i have a few questions for a CALVINIST to answer
so calvinism says that got already elected his people, and chose to send the rest to hell??
then why witness to try to bring people to christ if hes going to bring the ones that are going to be saved anyways?
why would god choose to send people to hell with out giving them a chance and only electing some?
and what about john 3:16, i though it says WHOEVER belives in christ shall be saved not the ELECT.
and what about freewill?
luisito022002 3 months ago
@luisito022002
For your last question, it really doesn't exclude calvinism at all.. Whoever believes in Christ will be saved. It is impossible for someone who has not be called to believe in Christ. For your middle question, your whole viewpoint is wrong.. God is sovereign and as man we are all guilty of rebelling and and sinning against the most high God. None of us deserve salvation. I don't think people really understand that idea. How merciful is God that he choses to save even one of us
YKA9989 3 months ago
@luisito022002
And to your first question. This passage gives an example of why we should, from God's own mouth, and it also shows God's election :And for your first question:And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.” And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. (Acts 18:9-11)
YKA9989 3 months ago
@luisito022002 Go read Romans 9 as a foundation. Obviously those questions are to long to answere so here are some books. "Freedom of the Will", "Gods Sovereignty" By RCSproul, "Desiring God" By John Piper, "Gods Sovereignty in evangelism" By Packer, and Wayne Grudems "Systematic Theology". THis is actually very beautiful when the Lord reveals it too you.
lowbattery34 2 months ago
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@luisito022002 Also, If a parent sees a child run out into the middle of a highway will a loving parent "let him choose" or will the parent "impose his will on the child to save him". Think about it...God bless you brother!
lowbattery34 2 months ago
The title should be Biblical and Arminianism. lol
MasterOranda 4 months ago
This is a horrible representation of Arminianism. Arminians believe in Total Depravity and many believe in Perseverance of the Saints.
CASchram 4 months ago
I do not aggree with Calvinism but I profoundly appreciate Mark Driscoll's kind and loving tone in this video. I was surprised because I am not used to hearing Calvinists talk like this. I know Driscoll wont read this but: Thank you, Mark. It was so heart-warming to hear that someone like me (non-Calvinist) would still be welcomed to be a member of your church. I wish you knew what that just did to me...
martdavid84 5 months ago
It already fits for me. Give me verses that support otherwise and I'd be happy to look at them, but I've done extensive research and went from Arminianism to Calvinism. It's not worth splitting hairs over and I respect your belief.
janniebobannie 5 months ago
Romans 9:19-21 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
janniebobannie 5 months ago
Romans 9:16-21
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
janniebobannie 5 months ago
I agree, we all fall short of the glory of the Lord and should be in hell. For those who God does elect to save, it's all by his grace and mercy. The ONLY problem I had with the video is there was no biblical verses to back up election and there are so many. We used to believe the Arminianism doctrine until we did extensive research. In response to someones question why witness? Because we are commanded to and God uses us somehow to bring the elect? I don't know, but we're commanded to.
janniebobannie 5 months ago
It is not arbitrary because it is based on God's will and the infinite wisdom of God, as we have already developed. The Bible is very clear - God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy - it is not our decision. God is indeed just in that He sent His Son to die on the cross for select persons that He "might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." If Jesus died for every person than every person would go to heaven. You can call it unfair if you like, but it is not unjust.
greenlj91 5 months ago
John Calvin... the same man who murdered Michael Servetus.
by the way, Calvinism did not start with John Calvin. It started with Augustine. John Calvin admits that in his own writings... what ppl dont realize is that the roots of Calvinism is not Christianity. It's Gnosticism. Calvinism did not even exist in the church until Augustine... for 300 yrs, no one ever taught the basic concepts of TULIP... they were all Non-Calvinists,
gogeta0064 5 months ago
Yea Calvinism !
MrWinknod 6 months ago
If you read the Bible without any influence from either side, you would naturally side with free will.
Besides, the Bible says God does not show favoritism, Calvinism is the ultimate form of favoritism.
98nafets 6 months ago
@98nafets Can you define free will for me please? And can you tell me if this is what you are referring to when you say that calvinism is the ultimate form of favoritism: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" or "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy"? In your opinion, is that God playing favorites?
greenlj91 5 months ago
@greenlj91 If I were to hold to your interpretations of those verses, yeah, that would be God playing favorites. But such a God wouldn't be just and thus not the God of the Bible.
98nafets 5 months ago
@98nafets And what is my interpretation of those verses? It might be more helpful if you give your interpretation and how this is not "favoritism" rather than insinuating that you know what I believe.
greenlj91 5 months ago
@greenlj91
"And what is my interpretation of those verses?"
Your interpretation is one in line with Calvinism (unless your a troll looking to start arguments).
"It might be more helpful if you give your interpretation and how this is not "favoritism""
Ok, God is picking who will go to Heaven not based on anything but his own will. How is that not favoritism? Those who do go to Heaven are no more deserving of those who don't.
98nafets 5 months ago
@98nafets If that is your interpretation of those verses, than you hold to the Calvinistic interpretation. God saves based upon His free choice, not based upon human will. No one deserves heaven - because we are all totally depraved, we have the nature of our father Adam. Thus, God's choice (election) is the sole determining factor of our salvation. If this is not true, then there are other factors, other than God's own will, that would influence God's choice (aka Armenianism).
greenlj91 5 months ago
@greenlj91 My point was that such an interpretation of those verses would show favoritism. "If this is not true, then there are other factors, other than God's own will, that would influence God's choice"
So do you think God doesn't want everyone to be saved? God's choice would be for all to be saved, but we must freely choose him. He wants a loving relationship with us, and a loving relationship cannot exist where there is no choice.
98nafets 5 months ago
@98nafets What other interpretation is there of those verses? Forgive me, I'm not understanding if you agree with that interpretation or not. Note: no one is disagreeing that you will not love God; you will if you are a Christian. But where does that love come from? It is not of us - love is a fruit of the Spirit. The Bible says we are all haters of God! My view is the God is able to save to the uttermost. If it were God's will for all men to be saved, all men would go to heaven.
greenlj91 5 months ago
@98nafets What other interpretation is there of those verses? Forgive me, I'm not understanding if you agree with that interpretation or not. Note: no one is disagreeing that you will not love God; you will if you are a Christian. But where does that love come from? It is not of us - love is a fruit of the Spirit. The Bible says we are all haters of God! My view is the God is able to save to the uttermost. If it were God's will for all men to be saved, all men would go to heaven.
greenlj91 5 months ago
@greenlj91 "If it were God's will for all men to be saved, all men would go to heaven. "
So under your view, God created people just to send them to Hell? Why would God create someone if he didn't want them in Heaven? I agree that we can only come to God if he draws us, but he has drawn all people. We just choose to reject him. I don't hold to the idea of irresistible grace because such a doctrine destroys the idea of love for God. How can love be real if it is completely forced?
98nafets 5 months ago
@98nafets Did Lazurus not love Jesus when Jesus called him forth out of the grave? Jesus didn't ask him if he wanted to be resurrected - it would do no good to ask a dead man so it was "forced" upon him! This is a picture of salvation. We are all dead in sins the Bible says - haters of God, at enmity with God, deceitful and wicked, out of the human heart comes all manners of evil things! It is deceitful and wicked above all things. We would all reject him, if left up to us.
greenlj91 5 months ago
@98nafets To bring this full circle, this is why God is so gracious in saving people! There is literally nothing in ourselves (not even a decision) that causes Him to save us. It is His choosing alone - and that should humble us. We can all, as believers, say that God saved us, though we deserved His wrath, and God gets all the glory for it. How our love is spurned knowing that Jesus died to save a wretch like me! Real love only originates in God, and He must grant it to our stone cold hearts.
greenlj91 5 months ago
@greenlj91 "He must grant it to our stone cold hearts."
Then why doesn't he grant that to all people? I agree with what you said, I believe in total depravity, just not irresistible grace. Why should God pick me but not someone else? Sure it might be humbling, but it's fundamentally unfair. How can such a God be just? We've all committed sins, yet God only offers redemption to an arbitrary few? God absolutely has the right to do that, but if He does, then He can't be described as just.
98nafets 5 months ago
@98nafets Do you want God to be fair? We would all be in hell. God's justice demands that he punish sin. But in His great mercy, He has chosen to send His Son to take the punishment of His elect. Thus, he made some people to be trophies of His mercy, grace and lovingkindness and others He made as a trophy of His justice. It is too long to post here, but read Romans 9:22-23. God's grace it is not arbitrary - "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." (Rom. 9:15).
greenlj91 5 months ago
@greenlj91 "God's grace it is not arbitrary - "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." "
How is that not arbitrary?
So people are now trophies? Jesus died on the Cross for trophies? Who is God trying to show these trophies to?
We were all made to glorify God, and God has drawn us all to Him, we have chosen to reject or accept him. If we didn't have that choice, God wouldn't be just and our love for him would be forced, and forced love is no love at all.
98nafets 5 months ago
Sign me up for the Free-Will please!
KiwiChristian 7 months ago
that is not an across the board pentecostal belief, maybe just from foolish ones
nauticalnel 8 months ago
I would call some aspects of these doctrines Second-Level importance re: theology. Which Mark echoes by saying that both are Christians as long as they agree on the First-Level importance doctrines.
I have no problem with Calvinism at all except for the fact that it seems that many of them often stress God's sovereignty so much that it's unclear whether they believe man is a free moral agent--which he would HAVE to be in order to be judged and take responsibility for his choices. It has to fit.
dougmoerhoffman 9 months ago
"The crux theologorum" or the cross of the theologian. It occurs when one tries to reconcile two Scriptural teachings "gratia universalis" 1 Tim 2:4 and "sola gratia" Eph 2:8-9. According to Scripture salvation is all God's doing from beginning to end and God wills all men to saved. According to Scripture if we are believers all glory goes to God and if we are unbelievers all blame goes to us. Not reasonable but Scriptural and it is what orthodox, confessional Lutherans believe.
torkelson100 1 year ago
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torkelson100 1 year ago
@torkelson100 Calvinists deny the clear Scriptural teaching of gratia universal and Arminians deny the clear Scriptural teaching of sola gratia. Both are reasonable but not Scriptural. Both are an attempt to fit the thoughts of the infinite God into our finite heads. Let God be God and submit to His word whether it makes sense to us or not 2 Cor 10:5. Let God's majesty remain. The cross of the theologian makes perfect sense to Him as does the Trinity, incarnation and the theodicy.
torkelson100 1 year ago
Eph4:14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;YOU know the Jehovah Witnesses also have scriptures that fit their doctrine create a Bible that fits the scriptures;;.all is not all every is not every world is not world so write the bible according to Calvin Cause it is that doctrine that saves not Jesus Christ.
Ogram1000 1 year ago
@Ogram1000 WHAT??? Not getting your message at all...
janniebobannie 5 months ago
@janniebobannie Just simply saying Rewrite the BIBLE to FIT Calvins Doctrine.
Ogram1000 5 months ago
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Birdieupon 1 year ago
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Birdieupon 1 year ago
I follow mystics .
Hillbillykid2000 1 year ago
im very much calvinist, however... i see things slightly diffrent, cause im not a theological drone.
The way i see it, is that free will is not the issue really, the issue is that man prefer's sin over God, and unless God moves upon our hearts by a divine act, and give us new hearts, and a new nature, we shall rightfully parish, they say you must believe in Christ to be born of the spirit, but i believe the truth is you must be born of the spirit, to believe unto eternal life...
agentorangetechno 2 years ago 2
i also believe, that other than this divine act of being born of the Spirit, without it, all a man has is a human acknowledgment of Christ, and is not a true and living faith of the Spirit, i like to call this 'Human Faith' and is not a divine faith, which only comes by the Spirit, to whom ever he wills on earth.
When John the baptist said that he shall baptise you with fire and the holy ghost, that was not poetry....and to the pentacostal, ye shall know them by their fruits, not their gifts.
agentorangetechno 2 years ago
I was baptised by fire and the Holy Ghost, im a living witness of that, and ive had foolish pentacostals tell me i wasnt born of the Spirit, simply because i did not speak in a toungue, shame on them, ye shall know them by their fruits, not thier gifts,,,,,, errgh, i hope a pentacostal reads this and repents of that un-biblical non-sense of tongues...
agentorangetechno 2 years ago 2
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Calvinism and it' s Unconditional Damnation Theology are from the pit of Hell!
calvinismisacult 2 years ago