We just have more mental complexity and naturally it leads to the ability to execute more and more control of the world around us. We aren't any different from all other life. When you break it all down we are just trying to survive and just use a more complex way of going about it. We seek certain emotional responses like all life because it gives us the tools to preserve our species. Man seeks out a woman for what he sees as his own self fulfillment but it is not. In doing so preserves us.
1. Ok about the difference between human animals and other animal species.
2. There is no such thing as "fulfilling your destiny". Destiny doesn't exist. Nothing is written in advance.
3. The rest is a bunch of generalisations with little meaning.
4. "Enlightenment" is a word with Buddhist connotations. Knowledge better explains it.
We're all animals. We all have animal instincts. Sometimes we must control them, sometimes we must give in to them. Balance is a fine art that intelligence helps.
2. You wrote "*Everything* is written in advance. Nothing happens without cause". Please PROVE IT. If you can't prove it then it's nothing more than unsubstantiated claims which deserve no attention.
On a previous post you wrote about thinking for yourself and be different from the herd! Now you say that everything is written in advance! It's a contradiction. Either you have free thought and free will OR everything is written in advance. It can't be both!!
@ruirodtube Determinism is easily proved, and we have videos on the subject.
A person can only think for themselves if they are caused to. They don't have any choice about the matter. It is predetermined. And what a person thinks for themself is also predetermined. We are not isolated from the Universe. "Thinking for yourself" doesn't mean you are unaffected by the Universe, but it means that you are not emotionally swayed group-think.
If you're not content with your animal instincts then fight them with your intelligent cortex. You won't always win and you won't always loose. Example: I'm married so I don't have sex with other women, but my animal instinct attracts me to them. It's up to me to resist by using my intelligence! Get it?
@KevinSolway I aim at always wining on some aspects and sometimes lose on other aspects. The animal in me has to spring out from time to time otherwise I'll be oppressing myself beyond limits, which eventually will be detrimental to my objective. For that reason you have things such as masturbation, imagination, fantasies, etc. You don't have to act on your fantasies but you can have them. Fantasising about something can sometimes be more satisfying that trying to accomplish it.
@ruirodtube Marriage is a religious construct. In my opinion that shouldn't exist. It inhibits our species procreative potential. I have loved many women. I could never marry just one for the rest of my life.
@KevinSolway But we never do go beyond them. To want to increase our knowledge and understanding is innate to us as well. We are products of our animal nature. Emotions are what drive us. We can try to dissociate ourselves from certain ones that we don't like but everything we do is comes from our animal nature. We eat, sleep, drink, have sex. Using our brains is part of being an animal too. Other apes do. Our brain allows us to manipulate the environment in ways other apes cannot.
then you give in to one of your animal desires while suppressing the remainder.
in my opinion the best way to live more fulfilling lives is to understand our animal desires so that we can feed them in an appropriate way.
an eligant solution is to look at the rest of the animal kingdom for our own solutions. and as you already understand, everyone is different and so has different needs in oredr to be happy.
My goal is not happiness. My goal is the absence of delusion. I have no issue with our animal natures except where delusion arises out of it. We *are* animals, and always will be. However, my goal involves the transcendence of the unconscious aspect of that animality.
with, "unconscious aspect of that animality" do you mean 'instinct'?
i very much enjoy this sort of discussion. it feels as if progress is made. i understand your position better. what seems like something born of an egocentric mind, something shallow, slowly gains depth.
with me, all i wish to escape is the human side which desires immediate gratification, without thought of long term repercussions.
I don't specifically mean "instinct" but that's part of it. I really just mean "thoughtlessness". What you said about long term repercussions is about right - consciousness is about appreciating causality. The unconscious do not appreciate it, or their very own nature.
in a way the unconcious does appreciate, but on a more base level.
instincts we are born with in general promote survival of the genes which in part requires survival of the body and mind.
along side these are 'learned' instincts, things we do so regularly that the become unconcious, walking, opening doors, using cutlery, or any other skill which is highly trained, repeated over and over, most often things which we do not need to think about most of the time.
with comment lengths like these it's no suprise you need to over generalise to get across your points, but hopefully you agree with most of what i've said.
i'm learning alot from this exchange, from you and myself. i've clarified quite a bit in my own mind. far more productive than discussions with most fundies i've had lately, and they were much longer.
The character limit can be a burden. I've learned to just reply to my own comment and make my overall comment as long as I see fit :)
I do agree with most of what you said, but add that instincts honed by evolution do not necessarily have anything to do with what is true. Nature doesn't care about truth v delusion. Indeed, Nature doesn't really care if certain of the traits built into us by evolution ultimately cause our extinction.
Instincts can be beneficial short term and detrimental long term. The evolution of consciousness produced the Ego. That has had benefits but it could also easily produce our downfall. The beauty of the evolution of consciousness is that it enables us to see these dynamics and realities and therefore act upon them. So, apart from the valuing of truth that drives my ideas there is also the survival benefit inherent in consciousness. A fool survives by accident; the wise by design.
i pretty much agree completely with what you said, and partly with the quote below.
"Instincts can be beneficial short term and detrimental long term."
but a problem i can see with this quote is it suggests evolution works on the short term, when it works in the long term.
the traits we have served us well in the environment we evolved in, but we have changed the environment too much while inhibiting evolution to allow us to adapt our instinct to this new rapidly changing environment.
Hmm, it's pretty hard to give a generic response to such a question. In general I would say what transhumanism proffers is really where humanity is headed as a natural course of events. You might be interested in an interview we did with a transhumanist fellow a while back:
I have a small terrier type dog. She is very territorial, egotistical, bossy -- kind of like many so called humans -- even like myself in earlier incarnations. Very much in the "animal realm" that I can say that I have left far behind. I do not snap at others or shove them around. I feel no need to prove myself to be "better" in a territorial sense. The only thing I am lacking is my crown and I am sure that will come in the afterlife. Now, I will return to listening to "Comfortably Numb."
You make a decent point. I perhaps could have worded that section a bit better. My intention was that we abandon, or transcend, the unconsciousness that is a hallmark of our animality. We are, of course, animals, and ought accept that as far as it goes.
I don't know that we need to "abandon" our animal nature so much as we need to embrace it in the sense of recognizing that we are a very unique sort of animal, and that our uniqueness is also our destiny. We are very unusual animals, with very unusual potential.
But I'm not sure that's different from what you said here. It seems to me like a way of framing the same conclusion from the complementary perspective. Dialectical thinking, or maybe I just have a need to be contrary over nothing, lol.
Thank you for your interest and comment. What you suggest may be so, though there is no real evidence for it. Anthropic interpretations of animal behaviour are highly problematic. And even if it were so, it doesn't impact on the importance of humans fulfilling their own natural destiny in terms of consciousness. That is the most important aspect of this presentation.
We don't know for sure that we are the only species with consciousness. The dolphins could all have attained a buddha state, and we just don't have the means to recognize that.
We just have more mental complexity and naturally it leads to the ability to execute more and more control of the world around us. We aren't any different from all other life. When you break it all down we are just trying to survive and just use a more complex way of going about it. We seek certain emotional responses like all life because it gives us the tools to preserve our species. Man seeks out a woman for what he sees as his own self fulfillment but it is not. In doing so preserves us.
Luigi84289 8 months ago
Search "Becoming Nonhuman – Living As Your True Self"
think you'll like it,
LouMajorsPhilosopher 1 year ago
1. Ok about the difference between human animals and other animal species.
2. There is no such thing as "fulfilling your destiny". Destiny doesn't exist. Nothing is written in advance.
3. The rest is a bunch of generalisations with little meaning.
4. "Enlightenment" is a word with Buddhist connotations. Knowledge better explains it.
We're all animals. We all have animal instincts. Sometimes we must control them, sometimes we must give in to them. Balance is a fine art that intelligence helps.
ruirodtube 1 year ago
@ruirodtube
2. *Everything* is written in advance. Nothing happens without cause.
3. Your words describe your point itself.
Your final words are not clear. There's no reason we have to be content with animal instincts, and there's no reason we can't go beyond them.
KevinSolway 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@KevinSolway
2. You wrote "*Everything* is written in advance. Nothing happens without cause". Please PROVE IT. If you can't prove it then it's nothing more than unsubstantiated claims which deserve no attention.
On a previous post you wrote about thinking for yourself and be different from the herd! Now you say that everything is written in advance! It's a contradiction. Either you have free thought and free will OR everything is written in advance. It can't be both!!
ruirodtube 1 year ago
@ruirodtube Determinism is easily proved, and we have videos on the subject.
A person can only think for themselves if they are caused to. They don't have any choice about the matter. It is predetermined. And what a person thinks for themself is also predetermined. We are not isolated from the Universe. "Thinking for yourself" doesn't mean you are unaffected by the Universe, but it means that you are not emotionally swayed group-think.
KevinSolway 1 year ago
@KevinSolway
If you're not content with your animal instincts then fight them with your intelligent cortex. You won't always win and you won't always loose. Example: I'm married so I don't have sex with other women, but my animal instinct attracts me to them. It's up to me to resist by using my intelligence! Get it?
ruirodtube 1 year ago
@ruirodtube There's no reason that we can't aim to always win, and someday we might arrive at such a condition where we can always win.
KevinSolway 1 year ago
@KevinSolway I aim at always wining on some aspects and sometimes lose on other aspects. The animal in me has to spring out from time to time otherwise I'll be oppressing myself beyond limits, which eventually will be detrimental to my objective. For that reason you have things such as masturbation, imagination, fantasies, etc. You don't have to act on your fantasies but you can have them. Fantasising about something can sometimes be more satisfying that trying to accomplish it.
ruirodtube 1 year ago
@ruirodtube Marriage is a religious construct. In my opinion that shouldn't exist. It inhibits our species procreative potential. I have loved many women. I could never marry just one for the rest of my life.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
@KevinSolway But we never do go beyond them. To want to increase our knowledge and understanding is innate to us as well. We are products of our animal nature. Emotions are what drive us. We can try to dissociate ourselves from certain ones that we don't like but everything we do is comes from our animal nature. We eat, sleep, drink, have sex. Using our brains is part of being an animal too. Other apes do. Our brain allows us to manipulate the environment in ways other apes cannot.
Luigi84289 1 year ago
Its also contempt for animals in most people's cases.
It only takes one mentally unhealthy person, lack of empathy, etc. to infect a mass population.
fifthavenuegirl 2 years ago
to reject our animal natures is to reject humanity. all qualities we can say we have are also seen in other species.
you have done very well though to avoid coming across as specieist, at least to me.
bignastydragon 2 years ago
It's a call to consciousness, basically. An exhortation to fulfill its promise.
MenoftheFinite 2 years ago
then you give in to one of your animal desires while suppressing the remainder.
in my opinion the best way to live more fulfilling lives is to understand our animal desires so that we can feed them in an appropriate way.
an eligant solution is to look at the rest of the animal kingdom for our own solutions. and as you already understand, everyone is different and so has different needs in oredr to be happy.
bignastydragon 2 years ago
My goal is not happiness. My goal is the absence of delusion. I have no issue with our animal natures except where delusion arises out of it. We *are* animals, and always will be. However, my goal involves the transcendence of the unconscious aspect of that animality.
MenoftheFinite 2 years ago
thankyou for the clarification.
with, "unconscious aspect of that animality" do you mean 'instinct'?
i very much enjoy this sort of discussion. it feels as if progress is made. i understand your position better. what seems like something born of an egocentric mind, something shallow, slowly gains depth.
with me, all i wish to escape is the human side which desires immediate gratification, without thought of long term repercussions.
bignastydragon 2 years ago
I don't specifically mean "instinct" but that's part of it. I really just mean "thoughtlessness". What you said about long term repercussions is about right - consciousness is about appreciating causality. The unconscious do not appreciate it, or their very own nature.
MenoftheFinite 2 years ago
in a way the unconcious does appreciate, but on a more base level.
instincts we are born with in general promote survival of the genes which in part requires survival of the body and mind.
along side these are 'learned' instincts, things we do so regularly that the become unconcious, walking, opening doors, using cutlery, or any other skill which is highly trained, repeated over and over, most often things which we do not need to think about most of the time.
bignastydragon 2 years ago
with comment lengths like these it's no suprise you need to over generalise to get across your points, but hopefully you agree with most of what i've said.
i'm learning alot from this exchange, from you and myself. i've clarified quite a bit in my own mind. far more productive than discussions with most fundies i've had lately, and they were much longer.
bignastydragon 2 years ago
The character limit can be a burden. I've learned to just reply to my own comment and make my overall comment as long as I see fit :)
I do agree with most of what you said, but add that instincts honed by evolution do not necessarily have anything to do with what is true. Nature doesn't care about truth v delusion. Indeed, Nature doesn't really care if certain of the traits built into us by evolution ultimately cause our extinction.
MenoftheFinite 2 years ago
Instincts can be beneficial short term and detrimental long term. The evolution of consciousness produced the Ego. That has had benefits but it could also easily produce our downfall. The beauty of the evolution of consciousness is that it enables us to see these dynamics and realities and therefore act upon them. So, apart from the valuing of truth that drives my ideas there is also the survival benefit inherent in consciousness. A fool survives by accident; the wise by design.
MenoftheFinite 2 years ago
i pretty much agree completely with what you said, and partly with the quote below.
"Instincts can be beneficial short term and detrimental long term."
but a problem i can see with this quote is it suggests evolution works on the short term, when it works in the long term.
the traits we have served us well in the environment we evolved in, but we have changed the environment too much while inhibiting evolution to allow us to adapt our instinct to this new rapidly changing environment.
bignastydragon 2 years ago
what are your thoughts on transhumanism?
yamaha893 2 years ago
Hmm, it's pretty hard to give a generic response to such a question. In general I would say what transhumanism proffers is really where humanity is headed as a natural course of events. You might be interested in an interview we did with a transhumanist fellow a while back:
geniusrealms(dot)com/reasoningshow/show11.htm
MenoftheInfinite 2 years ago
You'll need to make "reasoning show" one word.
MenoftheInfinite 2 years ago
I think animals can reason using deduction. Crows have used wire to make a hook to pull a basket of food out of a tube.
Prove animals are not self-aware
Animal nature does not always cause suffering. Unless you mean so in a buddhistic sense. Logic and reason will not free us from suffering.
MadManSnake0 3 years ago 2
I have a small terrier type dog. She is very territorial, egotistical, bossy -- kind of like many so called humans -- even like myself in earlier incarnations. Very much in the "animal realm" that I can say that I have left far behind. I do not snap at others or shove them around. I feel no need to prove myself to be "better" in a territorial sense. The only thing I am lacking is my crown and I am sure that will come in the afterlife. Now, I will return to listening to "Comfortably Numb."
MKFaizi 3 years ago
You make a decent point. I perhaps could have worded that section a bit better. My intention was that we abandon, or transcend, the unconsciousness that is a hallmark of our animality. We are, of course, animals, and ought accept that as far as it goes.
MenoftheInfinite 3 years ago
I don't know that we need to "abandon" our animal nature so much as we need to embrace it in the sense of recognizing that we are a very unique sort of animal, and that our uniqueness is also our destiny. We are very unusual animals, with very unusual potential.
But I'm not sure that's different from what you said here. It seems to me like a way of framing the same conclusion from the complementary perspective. Dialectical thinking, or maybe I just have a need to be contrary over nothing, lol.
Naturyl 3 years ago
Thanks for the headache
mjdoyza 3 years ago
Hopefully it falls into the "no pain, no gain" category. Welcome to the channel.
MenoftheInfinite 3 years ago
Thank you for your interest and comment. What you suggest may be so, though there is no real evidence for it. Anthropic interpretations of animal behaviour are highly problematic. And even if it were so, it doesn't impact on the importance of humans fulfilling their own natural destiny in terms of consciousness. That is the most important aspect of this presentation.
MenoftheInfinite 3 years ago
We don't know for sure that we are the only species with consciousness. The dolphins could all have attained a buddha state, and we just don't have the means to recognize that.
ElizabethIsabelle 3 years ago 4