Dr. Chomsky recently declared that the USA invaded Afghanistan when they had no evidence that al Qaeda did 9/11. See my video "Chomsky on Faith-Based Wars and 9/11"
Argument is beyond good or bad... it is true or false that matters, and in this case it's true. You pay for it therefore you are responsible for consequences of your 'payments'.
@shamantrixx What the fuck are you rambling about? If the mlitary of the state I live in kills a load of people I am not responsible for it nor is the wider class I belong to. To think otherwise is to take on some kind of false moral burden. It also leads down the road of there are good people, bad people 'arguments'. When really what should be discussed and understood is the state, its role, purpose, historic developement, its interests, relation to the economy and class etc.
@ButherLi55ett I may buy apples to eat, does this mean I'm responsible (or my class) for the workers conditions and pay? Of course it fucking doesn't. Does it mean I should or could struggle with these poorly treated workers for better conditions, more money etc yes cos it is in my class interest to do so. And I know who are my comrades are and who aren't. Chomsky can stick his liberal moralism up his arse, comprende?
Watch your mouth or take a hike... I'm not interested in arguing on redneck level. If you have any arguments - bring'em on. If you don't have arguments - find something useful to do!
Having said that - what you seam to suggest is that if I pay someone to murder your family I'm not responsible?
That seams to be your 'argument' (or should I say pseudo-argument). Ponder about this one for a while and let me know how you feel about it.
@shamantrixx Well, I made a few typos but my perspective is there in black and white. No I'm not suggesting that at all. As I have commented Chomsky appears to think the working class is to blame for the oppression by the state, in this case Israel cos err like they get money from the US or something. That's about his argument is it not? But what actually determines the barbarity and oppression is capital - the enemy class and the state. It's not literally 'our' fault. Our enemy is capital.
And it just happens to be YOUR capital... you can not avoid the fact that you're paying for the bombs and separation walls. Surely you can do something other than complain about Chomsky telling it like it is!? Or can you?
Stop paying taxes... go out on the street... just do something and stop wining about truth being told in a way that makes you feel what you should feel anyway.... angry and responsible!
"If the mlitary of the state I live in kills a load of people I am not responsible for it nor is the wider class I belong to."
Sure, if you live in a totalitarian state. Citizens of a free and (relatively) open democracy have a larger responsibility for the actions of their governments however. US involvement in the Vietnam War came to end largely because the dissenting public became too much of a hassle for the government.
@phooey108 How can the working class 'under' any government be responsible for the actions of the enemy class whose interests are against and in complete contradiction with those of the exploited class? It is in the interest of the working class of all lands to overthrow the bourgeois state not hold it accountable for its crimes, i.e ensure a 'nicer' capitalism - which is completely illusory anyway.
@ButherLi55ett I would question Noam's line on Vietnam also. I would have thought it was more to do with soldiers etc disobeying orders, killing officers, going awol etc etc increasing American deaths, the enemy forces, economic reasons etc. What do you mean by "dissenting public"? "became too much of a hassle for the government" sounds ridiculous.
seems like I'm talking to an ideological brick wall, so I wont even bother. You want to sidestep the issue and have an endless debate on the red herrings you've just introduced. If you cant (or wont) understand the simple observation that citizens of a free and open democracy are more responsible for the actions of their government than citizens of China, North Korea, or some other totalitarian state, we cant even talk.
@phooey108 It's not a simple observation Chomsky is taking a moralistic position as he frequently does....it's why he supports Chavez and talks about how they have the greatest democracy in the world. It also intertwines with his nationalism...some nations are more oppressive than others and how America is the greatest country on earth, the most free etc He rarely mentions the fact that these 'totalitarian state[s]' can only operate within the existing system and via the 'free', 'open' ones.
@ButherLi55ett Where do these views end up? In the 'first' world being responsible for the horrors of the 'third world'? Third Worldism? (labour aristocracy?) - which he was close to in previous decades...I don't think it's a question of responsibilty (for nation states), more or less in whatever case period. I disagree with you so and Chomsky so obviously I am 'an ideological brick wall'.
@ButherLi55ett I've been reading through your posts and think your stance to abstain from moral duty is troubling. It goes back to many enlightenment thinkers such as Rousseau, Kant, Locke, who wrote about the social contract. The contract varies between different thinkers, but the premise is that we are born into it whether we like it or not. From a position of privilege ie relative freedom, we can exercise our liberties in order to make conditions better for those who suffer.
@MyMelancholyDodo I don't want to make conditions better, I want to transcend them. The same goes for improving suffering and poverty. The exploited class in the 'West' is not privileged. This I believe is a major barrier to class consciousness....for example why many working class Americans think they are 'middle class' - perhaps cos they think they are 'privileged', they have it slightly better than others, or have some 'luxuries', they have a duty to help the poor etc.
@ButherLi55ett What do you mean transcend conditions? If you are talking metaphysics then I believe it is irrelevent. Being privilege is not so black and white, I agree. However, living in a society that enables you to use the internet to express freedom of opinion, then that is a privilege in comparison to those people in third world countries who are disciplined brutally for expressing freedom of speech. For this, one can denote that they have certain rights others do not have.
@MyMelancholyDodo No, I mean materially and spiritually (not in a religious sense) i.e social relations. To 'overcome' all existing political, social and economic relations. A big task, but absolutely necessary in my view not just for the survival of humanity but to live humanely, create our own history and organisation of life consciously and in our own interest on a global scale. An important part of this is for the working class in the West to realise and accept they are exploited too.
Norm is so foolish abut Israel, I'm starting to think he works for the Massad, he is using reverse psychology to Drum up support for Israel,
NiteAngel 8 months ago
@NiteAngel his name is Noam, not Norm...get it right before you try to tear him down.
mattysavs 3 months ago
Sounds like someone masturbating with too much lube in the beginning
Walnut1871 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Laughing when Iraqis kill each other is not Anti-Semitism.
rachelgolem 1 year ago
Dr. Chomsky recently declared that the USA invaded Afghanistan when they had no evidence that al Qaeda did 9/11. See my video "Chomsky on Faith-Based Wars and 9/11"
punxsutawneybarney 1 year ago
Happy Birthday Prof. Chomsky! Thank you.
flylotusfly 1 year ago 9
Yes Noam, the American working class are to blame for the Israeli state's actions. Good one.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett
Argument is beyond good or bad... it is true or false that matters, and in this case it's true. You pay for it therefore you are responsible for consequences of your 'payments'.
comprende?
shamantrixx 1 year ago
@shamantrixx What the fuck are you rambling about? If the mlitary of the state I live in kills a load of people I am not responsible for it nor is the wider class I belong to. To think otherwise is to take on some kind of false moral burden. It also leads down the road of there are good people, bad people 'arguments'. When really what should be discussed and understood is the state, its role, purpose, historic developement, its interests, relation to the economy and class etc.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett I may buy apples to eat, does this mean I'm responsible (or my class) for the workers conditions and pay? Of course it fucking doesn't. Does it mean I should or could struggle with these poorly treated workers for better conditions, more money etc yes cos it is in my class interest to do so. And I know who are my comrades are and who aren't. Chomsky can stick his liberal moralism up his arse, comprende?
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett
Watch your mouth or take a hike... I'm not interested in arguing on redneck level. If you have any arguments - bring'em on. If you don't have arguments - find something useful to do!
Having said that - what you seam to suggest is that if I pay someone to murder your family I'm not responsible?
That seams to be your 'argument' (or should I say pseudo-argument). Ponder about this one for a while and let me know how you feel about it.
shamantrixx 1 year ago
@shamantrixx Well, I made a few typos but my perspective is there in black and white. No I'm not suggesting that at all. As I have commented Chomsky appears to think the working class is to blame for the oppression by the state, in this case Israel cos err like they get money from the US or something. That's about his argument is it not? But what actually determines the barbarity and oppression is capital - the enemy class and the state. It's not literally 'our' fault. Our enemy is capital.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett
And it just happens to be YOUR capital... you can not avoid the fact that you're paying for the bombs and separation walls. Surely you can do something other than complain about Chomsky telling it like it is!? Or can you?
Stop paying taxes... go out on the street... just do something and stop wining about truth being told in a way that makes you feel what you should feel anyway.... angry and responsible!
shamantrixx 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett
"If the mlitary of the state I live in kills a load of people I am not responsible for it nor is the wider class I belong to."
Sure, if you live in a totalitarian state. Citizens of a free and (relatively) open democracy have a larger responsibility for the actions of their governments however. US involvement in the Vietnam War came to end largely because the dissenting public became too much of a hassle for the government.
phooey108 1 year ago
@phooey108 How can the working class 'under' any government be responsible for the actions of the enemy class whose interests are against and in complete contradiction with those of the exploited class? It is in the interest of the working class of all lands to overthrow the bourgeois state not hold it accountable for its crimes, i.e ensure a 'nicer' capitalism - which is completely illusory anyway.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett I would question Noam's line on Vietnam also. I would have thought it was more to do with soldiers etc disobeying orders, killing officers, going awol etc etc increasing American deaths, the enemy forces, economic reasons etc. What do you mean by "dissenting public"? "became too much of a hassle for the government" sounds ridiculous.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett
seems like I'm talking to an ideological brick wall, so I wont even bother. You want to sidestep the issue and have an endless debate on the red herrings you've just introduced. If you cant (or wont) understand the simple observation that citizens of a free and open democracy are more responsible for the actions of their government than citizens of China, North Korea, or some other totalitarian state, we cant even talk.
phooey108 1 year ago
@phooey108 It's not a simple observation Chomsky is taking a moralistic position as he frequently does....it's why he supports Chavez and talks about how they have the greatest democracy in the world. It also intertwines with his nationalism...some nations are more oppressive than others and how America is the greatest country on earth, the most free etc He rarely mentions the fact that these 'totalitarian state[s]' can only operate within the existing system and via the 'free', 'open' ones.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett Where do these views end up? In the 'first' world being responsible for the horrors of the 'third world'? Third Worldism? (labour aristocracy?) - which he was close to in previous decades...I don't think it's a question of responsibilty (for nation states), more or less in whatever case period. I disagree with you so and Chomsky so obviously I am 'an ideological brick wall'.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett I've been reading through your posts and think your stance to abstain from moral duty is troubling. It goes back to many enlightenment thinkers such as Rousseau, Kant, Locke, who wrote about the social contract. The contract varies between different thinkers, but the premise is that we are born into it whether we like it or not. From a position of privilege ie relative freedom, we can exercise our liberties in order to make conditions better for those who suffer.
MyMelancholyDodo 1 year ago
@MyMelancholyDodo I don't want to make conditions better, I want to transcend them. The same goes for improving suffering and poverty. The exploited class in the 'West' is not privileged. This I believe is a major barrier to class consciousness....for example why many working class Americans think they are 'middle class' - perhaps cos they think they are 'privileged', they have it slightly better than others, or have some 'luxuries', they have a duty to help the poor etc.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
@ButherLi55ett What do you mean transcend conditions? If you are talking metaphysics then I believe it is irrelevent. Being privilege is not so black and white, I agree. However, living in a society that enables you to use the internet to express freedom of opinion, then that is a privilege in comparison to those people in third world countries who are disciplined brutally for expressing freedom of speech. For this, one can denote that they have certain rights others do not have.
MyMelancholyDodo 1 year ago
@MyMelancholyDodo No, I mean materially and spiritually (not in a religious sense) i.e social relations. To 'overcome' all existing political, social and economic relations. A big task, but absolutely necessary in my view not just for the survival of humanity but to live humanely, create our own history and organisation of life consciously and in our own interest on a global scale. An important part of this is for the working class in the West to realise and accept they are exploited too.
ButherLi55ett 1 year ago
Happy Birthday Mr. Chomsky.
A true role model.
Thank you.
WilhelmDrake 1 year ago 11