The purpose of the Second Vatican Council was to sabotage the Roman Catholic church, and it has apparently succeeded. The world could really use the Church today...
This type of performance is okay, but outside in church. Can't the dancers wait to get to the parish hall?
The new Mass is valid, but liturgists and liberal priests have destroyed it with their silly dancing and made up rituals. May the ancient Roman Mass, which has nourished the hearts and minds of countless Christians for millennia, return in abundance to altars throughout the world..
Yes, this particular dance is particularly distracting in the Eucharistic setting, and should be reconsidered... BUT all y'all who think it's inherently anti-Catholic are a bunch of ignorant assholes... look at Church history and you'll see one rich in incorporating theology with indigenous traditions (Easter, Christmas, All Souls' Day all have elements of "pagan" rituals)... it gave HUMAN context to the converts. God doesn't care
@madaloe *** it gave HUMAN context to the potential catechumens who would have otherwise been thrown off by foreign "western" traditions. The beauty is that at its core, the Catholic Church has remained virtually unchanged for the past 2000-- who cares about external trappings that don't really affect Church dogma at all... I know God doesn't.
Thanks for your insight. Your theology is aptly displayed by your own slur: "ignorant assholes". I have studied theology and history of the liturgy for years, and none of the Fathers or Saints shared your ridiculous position. If your abhor Catholic liturgy as handed on from the apostles, then join one of the pentecostal groups and dance to your hearts content.
You're right... my slur was inappropriate and counter-productive, so for that, I apologize. There's no reason to continue widening the gap between radical Traditionalist Catholics and radical Liberal Catholics, both sides who put the integrity of the one, true, apostolic Church in jeopardy. You and I are neither, and should instead be recognizing the beauty of being on the same side, however diverse our approaches.
Im sorry but this type of liturgical pluralism, even given the various rites and usages, is something unheard of in the history of the Church and does not sit well with liturgical rubrics and directives for the past 2000 years. I am still of the opinion that if you want to dance: go ahead - just do it at a party or in a dance hall etc. When at Mass you should pray, sing and follow the liturgy. You may consider me a radical, but I am only holding the traditional position.
@TheProudAmerican777 - unfortunately, yes. I was embarrased. But the K of C, as it seems to me, does not have the internal doctrinal and liturgical formation to know any better.
the bishop has EVERYTHING to do with the planning of celebrations. and if he doesn't he's negligent, and STILL responsible for the sacrilege and scandal.
Liturgical Dance is licit in some areas of Catholic Civilization. North America and Europe, being of the Western Church, are not areas of where Liturgical Dance is licit, canonically.
Sure he "spoke" on it...that is ALL the Vatican II hierarchy ever does in regards to ending the so called abuses. They issue statements to pacify the dumbed down laity and then they let the "abusers" go on their merry way. Wake up Catholics, its time for a new counter revolution against the heresies.
liturgical dance is a ministry, just like church choir. it isnt a part of the mass, or really nessicary. liturgical dancing is supposed to be full body prayer to music. it should be respectful and a bit more tasteful.
There is a group of liturgical dancers in lorain, of who have been dancing in the masses for 15 yr.s and well accepted by the congregation and dioceses. it brings a lot to their church as well as others. they even danced for the bisop's retierment mass,and was very well recieved.
dance can be a ministry, in the hall... the choir is not a ministry, it is a liturgical office, and dance has never been a liturgical office. Try reading Pius X's motu proprio in 1908. As to it being "well received", that is not the basis of appropriateness. A congregation can "receive" a pro-same sex marriage couple all they want, it wouldnt change the teaching of the church.
these are not just "quite a few people"... this is the Church... I presume you are Catholic, and in the Catholic Church there are established rules... to protect us from liturgical aberrations... liturgical dance being one of them. Change is a good think, like mchanging my underwear. Changing morals like allowing gay marriage is not a good change... you need a better catch phrase.
"Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance."
as long as it isnt a perfomance there really isnt a problem, its praise
unfortunately for you i read that entire document. I hope you did... If you are in America, especially if you are not of African, Hispanic, or Asian descent, and neither is the congregation, it is hardly conceivable for you to claim that "liturgical dance" as done here in the US is an expression of the culture. Dance is foreign to Western liturgical culture. And that was said by none other than Francis Cardinal Arinze the prefect of the congregation which wrote the document you quote.
actually, the dance group was founded by a german woman, with hispanic dancers. they also present and a hispanic church, of which they have been asked to dance at many american churchs. do you think that one mans opinion on a topic out rules everyone elses? regardless of how long the are in "the field"
If it's not done during the Mass, and they're not breaking anything or hurting anybody, I don't see what the problem is. Aesthetically, it's not to everyone's taste, but still... some people like it.
Liturgical dance? i dont think there is one. There are only two parts of the Mass, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Another liturgical abuse!
That was an abomination. I have more respect for Protestants than these jokers. At least the Protestants had the courage to admit their break with the Catholic Church. These jokers want to break with Catholic tradition but take the name Catholic with them. Sorry, not gonna happen. You can put makeup on a pig and take it to a movie, but it is still a pig.
It is obvious that the couple moved to another pew to get a better view of the dance.
Why is it that people don't want to sit in the front for a most Holy occasion but they want to make sure they catch every second of that dance? That is so backwards.
Much thanks for posting videos like this! Please inform the public as to what Catholic Parish this is, so that other Catholics may write to the Archbishop and settle this disturbing matter. I can just hear the clapping noise in the background. Quite revolting!
Romans 2:1 That is why you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge another; for passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself. Because you, the judge does the very same thing
Really ! Take a look in the mirror wonderboy!!!!!!!!. Try reading Romans 2. Of course I aa sure that doesn't apply to you because you are special!!!!!!!!!!!
Quite frankly, you are the one who look and sound most miserable. I find nothing constructive in your comments, except hatred for anything Catholic, traditional, sacred and reverent. Your comments have betrayed your true color.
That is easy, anybody who doesn't agree with them ( including the Pope ) is wrong. They will tell you that anything that happened during or after Vatican 2 is wrong and of the devil.
"The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes-incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy- none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy of the "reasonable sacrifice"."-Ratzinger, Spirit of the Liturgy
"It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy "attractive" by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals' point of view) end with applause."-Ratzinger
"I myself have experienced the replacing of the penitential rite by a dance performance, which, needless to say, received a round of applause. Could there be anything farther removed from true penitence? Liturgy can only attract people -when it looks, not at itself, but at God, when it allows him to enter and act."-Ratzinger
"Then something truly unique happens, beyond competition, and people have a sense that more has taken place than a recreational activity. None of the Christian rites includes dancing."-Ratzinger, SoTL
Here is What Cardinal Arinze says: None of the Christian rites include dancing. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean [Congolese] form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.
". It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy "attractive" by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals' point of view) end with applause. Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.
Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.
Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an appearance. . . . Dancing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, because, after all, the Cross was only an appearance
That was not the holy Father who put those dancers in - it was his master of ceremonies, Piero Marini, who is now out of a job for a very good reason...
Do you think the Vatican approves this kind of dance in the Sanctuary? Do you think they would approve this in the Mass? If you do, please read Spirit of the Liturgy by Ratzinger, or what Cardinal Arinze says about "dance".
hey its not about Catholic Traditionalism (I am not a traditionalist) or about being miserable, there is a place for everything and this is not place for it. To disobey the Church is to disobey Christ and the Church has spoken on what it thinks of liturgical dance.
It's an abuse! It shud take place outside the mass, no exception. They dun understand the meaning of mass... But, No, it's not the fruit of Vatican 2.
A good example of the banality and stupidity of todays catholic liturgy - no wonders that so many of the faithful since these "reforms" does not bother to visit the Sundays "mass".
The whole religious mentality is very different than 40 years ago, and the sense of reverence and sacredness inside a church is rarely found nowadays. Sadly many faithful don't think there is anything wrong with various "creative" activities inside the church, and to many of them, church or sanctuary is really not that different than a performing stage.
The purpose of the Second Vatican Council was to sabotage the Roman Catholic church, and it has apparently succeeded. The world could really use the Church today...
Gorbachenko 7 months ago
This type of performance is okay, but outside in church. Can't the dancers wait to get to the parish hall?
The new Mass is valid, but liturgists and liberal priests have destroyed it with their silly dancing and made up rituals. May the ancient Roman Mass, which has nourished the hearts and minds of countless Christians for millennia, return in abundance to altars throughout the world..
epituchano 9 months ago
Yes, this particular dance is particularly distracting in the Eucharistic setting, and should be reconsidered... BUT all y'all who think it's inherently anti-Catholic are a bunch of ignorant assholes... look at Church history and you'll see one rich in incorporating theology with indigenous traditions (Easter, Christmas, All Souls' Day all have elements of "pagan" rituals)... it gave HUMAN context to the converts. God doesn't care
madaloe 9 months ago
@madaloe *** it gave HUMAN context to the potential catechumens who would have otherwise been thrown off by foreign "western" traditions. The beauty is that at its core, the Catholic Church has remained virtually unchanged for the past 2000-- who cares about external trappings that don't really affect Church dogma at all... I know God doesn't.
madaloe 9 months ago
@madaloe
Thanks for your insight. Your theology is aptly displayed by your own slur: "ignorant assholes". I have studied theology and history of the liturgy for years, and none of the Fathers or Saints shared your ridiculous position. If your abhor Catholic liturgy as handed on from the apostles, then join one of the pentecostal groups and dance to your hearts content.
iotaunam1 9 months ago
@iotaunam1
You're right... my slur was inappropriate and counter-productive, so for that, I apologize. There's no reason to continue widening the gap between radical Traditionalist Catholics and radical Liberal Catholics, both sides who put the integrity of the one, true, apostolic Church in jeopardy. You and I are neither, and should instead be recognizing the beauty of being on the same side, however diverse our approaches.
madaloe 9 months ago
@madaloe
Im sorry but this type of liturgical pluralism, even given the various rites and usages, is something unheard of in the history of the Church and does not sit well with liturgical rubrics and directives for the past 2000 years. I am still of the opinion that if you want to dance: go ahead - just do it at a party or in a dance hall etc. When at Mass you should pray, sing and follow the liturgy. You may consider me a radical, but I am only holding the traditional position.
iotaunam1 9 months ago
Well, they wait until the end of Mass to abuse the church...
CatholicTraditional 1 year ago
When theres something strange, in the Liturgy
Who you gonna call?
Una Voce!.lol
TheProudAmerican777 1 year ago
oh yes another hey look at me Mass
cosmith87 1 year ago
Looks like the scene from the "Planet of the Apes." But they danced better in the movie.
capon33 1 year ago
@capon33
and they most likely had more sense too!
iotaunam1 9 months ago
K of C was there too?
Just disgraceful
TheProudAmerican777 1 year ago
@TheProudAmerican777 - unfortunately, yes. I was embarrased. But the K of C, as it seems to me, does not have the internal doctrinal and liturgical formation to know any better.
pacislander4life 1 year ago
Ora Pro Nobis Sancta Dei Genetrix.
TheProudAmerican777 1 year ago
the bishop has EVERYTHING to do with the planning of celebrations. and if he doesn't he's negligent, and STILL responsible for the sacrilege and scandal.
enzoselva888 2 years ago
Anyone who thinks that this is Catholic, does not deserve to call himself Catholic.
This is an Abomination in the eyes of God!!!!
Paganism!!!!!
iotaunam1 2 years ago
Comment removed
madaloe 9 months ago
Liturgical Dance is licit in some areas of Catholic Civilization. North America and Europe, being of the Western Church, are not areas of where Liturgical Dance is licit, canonically.
Never mind "Stomp The Yard" after Mass...
JohannVF 3 years ago
Cardinal Arinze (pro multos annos) has already definitively spoken on this.
Being the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, he would be the final arbiter.
JohannVF 3 years ago
Sure he "spoke" on it...that is ALL the Vatican II hierarchy ever does in regards to ending the so called abuses. They issue statements to pacify the dumbed down laity and then they let the "abusers" go on their merry way. Wake up Catholics, its time for a new counter revolution against the heresies.
wjweigand 3 years ago
The Catholic Church is the same everywhere. Same Church, Same rules.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
liturgical dance is a ministry, just like church choir. it isnt a part of the mass, or really nessicary. liturgical dancing is supposed to be full body prayer to music. it should be respectful and a bit more tasteful.
There is a group of liturgical dancers in lorain, of who have been dancing in the masses for 15 yr.s and well accepted by the congregation and dioceses. it brings a lot to their church as well as others. they even danced for the bisop's retierment mass,and was very well recieved.
alypenny09 3 years ago
dance can be a ministry, in the hall... the choir is not a ministry, it is a liturgical office, and dance has never been a liturgical office. Try reading Pius X's motu proprio in 1908. As to it being "well received", that is not the basis of appropriateness. A congregation can "receive" a pro-same sex marriage couple all they want, it wouldnt change the teaching of the church.
pacislander4life 3 years ago
if you were to see "real" liturgical dancing im sure you can see were im coming from. im sorry this was your only experience with "liturgical dance"
alypenny09 3 years ago
Are you aware that the Vatican is against liturgical dance", "real" or otherwise?
pacislander4life 3 years ago
there are quite a few things quite a few people are against. have you ever heard that "change is a good thing"
alypenny09 3 years ago
these are not just "quite a few people"... this is the Church... I presume you are Catholic, and in the Catholic Church there are established rules... to protect us from liturgical aberrations... liturgical dance being one of them. Change is a good think, like mchanging my underwear. Changing morals like allowing gay marriage is not a good change... you need a better catch phrase.
pacislander4life 3 years ago
im glad you change your underwear.
alypenny09 3 years ago
"Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance."
as long as it isnt a perfomance there really isnt a problem, its praise
alypenny09 3 years ago
unfortunately for you i read that entire document. I hope you did... If you are in America, especially if you are not of African, Hispanic, or Asian descent, and neither is the congregation, it is hardly conceivable for you to claim that "liturgical dance" as done here in the US is an expression of the culture. Dance is foreign to Western liturgical culture. And that was said by none other than Francis Cardinal Arinze the prefect of the congregation which wrote the document you quote.
pacislander4life 3 years ago
actually, the dance group was founded by a german woman, with hispanic dancers. they also present and a hispanic church, of which they have been asked to dance at many american churchs. do you think that one mans opinion on a topic out rules everyone elses? regardless of how long the are in "the field"
alypenny09 3 years ago
If it's not done during the Mass, and they're not breaking anything or hurting anybody, I don't see what the problem is. Aesthetically, it's not to everyone's taste, but still... some people like it.
XSC3 3 years ago
1. its hurting the liturgy and what the liturgy is, as well as the sanctitiy of the sanctuary.
2. its not a matter of likes, its a matter of what is or is not appropriate.
pacislander4life 3 years ago
oh, gostav, you forgot one, molesting children!!!
Dancers! Keep Praising JESUS and celbraitng in the dance! Beautiful!!!!
noahbuiltark 3 years ago
Can this really be considered a liturgical abuse sense it was done after mass, not during mass?
nate12387 3 years ago
Liturgical dance? i dont think there is one. There are only two parts of the Mass, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Another liturgical abuse!
+God bless the Catholic church!
gostav0 3 years ago
That was an abomination. I have more respect for Protestants than these jokers. At least the Protestants had the courage to admit their break with the Catholic Church. These jokers want to break with Catholic tradition but take the name Catholic with them. Sorry, not gonna happen. You can put makeup on a pig and take it to a movie, but it is still a pig.
antacidtablet 4 years ago 2
:-)
pacislander4life 4 years ago
WHAT THE HELL?????????????
tradcath 4 years ago
It is obvious that the couple moved to another pew to get a better view of the dance.
Why is it that people don't want to sit in the front for a most Holy occasion but they want to make sure they catch every second of that dance? That is so backwards.
Peace
1Hope4All 4 years ago
As good as that "dance" could have been, I would not be caught in that Church during that Mass.
I prefer either Novus Ordo, Traditional Latin or very reverent ordinary Mass.
Peace and God bless.
Sandy
1Hope4All 4 years ago
The Truth shall prevail. The Vatican II heresies and their supporters are on the downfall.
I can already see it in my own generation, my age group thirsts for tradition and reverence, and we will find satisfaction.
I can't wait for the Church of tomorrow.
Bolekan 4 years ago
If you are saying that you reject the Vatican II Council, I cannot support this comment.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
of course not! Vatican II was a holy council of the Church. My comment against Vatican II was directed at the "Spirit" of Vatican II.
Vatican II can only be properly understood in light of tradition.
Bolekan 4 years ago
In that case I suggest you choose your words wisely when you talk about "Vatican II heresies", lest you scandalize the faithful.
~Laurence
pacislander4life 4 years ago
Much thanks for posting videos like this! Please inform the public as to what Catholic Parish this is, so that other Catholics may write to the Archbishop and settle this disturbing matter. I can just hear the clapping noise in the background. Quite revolting!
lloydbaltazar 4 years ago
Romans 2:1 That is why you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge another; for passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself. Because you, the judge does the very same thing
LATCHF 4 years ago
Really ! Take a look in the mirror wonderboy!!!!!!!!. Try reading Romans 2. Of course I aa sure that doesn't apply to you because you are special!!!!!!!!!!!
LATCHF 4 years ago
If it is so bad, maybe he should send out a directive!
You have got to be a Catholic Traditionalist. God are you miserable!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LATCHF 4 years ago
Actually I am pretty happy... thats what happens when you follow what the Church teaches... How does it feel to judge people, like you are doing?
pacislander4life 4 years ago
Quite frankly, you are the one who look and sound most miserable. I find nothing constructive in your comments, except hatred for anything Catholic, traditional, sacred and reverent. Your comments have betrayed your true color.
theowind 4 years ago
Did God strike David dead when he danced before the Ark of the Covenant? You like everyone else is entitled to your own opinion.
You don't like it, fine!
LATCHF 4 years ago
We are not talking about the Ark of the Covenant are we? Yes, I am entitled to my opinion and I suppose so is Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict...
pacislander4life 4 years ago
How to spot a Catholic Traditionalist
That is easy, anybody who doesn't agree with them ( including the Pope ) is wrong. They will tell you that anything that happened during or after Vatican 2 is wrong and of the devil.
LATCHF 4 years ago
look up what Cardinal Arinze said about "dance" in the Mass.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
"The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes-incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy- none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy of the "reasonable sacrifice"."-Ratzinger, Spirit of the Liturgy
pacislander4life 4 years ago
"It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy "attractive" by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals' point of view) end with applause."-Ratzinger
pacislander4life 4 years ago
"I myself have experienced the replacing of the penitential rite by a dance performance, which, needless to say, received a round of applause. Could there be anything farther removed from true penitence? Liturgy can only attract people -when it looks, not at itself, but at God, when it allows him to enter and act."-Ratzinger
pacislander4life 4 years ago
"Then something truly unique happens, beyond competition, and people have a sense that more has taken place than a recreational activity. None of the Christian rites includes dancing."-Ratzinger, SoTL
pacislander4life 4 years ago
Back in 1999, John Paul ll had people from various Asian countries dancing at a Mass when he was in India.
LATCHF 4 years ago
Doesn't mean he approved of it.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
Liturgical dance is approved in Non-Western areas.
Rome have spoken the mater is closed.
cyberwolf001 4 years ago
Here is What Cardinal Arinze says: None of the Christian rites include dancing. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean [Congolese] form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.
apologist1 4 years ago 3
". It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy "attractive" by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals' point of view) end with applause. Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.
apologist1 4 years ago 4
Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.
apologist1 4 years ago 4
Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an appearance. . . . Dancing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, because, after all, the Cross was only an appearance
apologist1 4 years ago 4
no dance has not been approved. Cardinal Arinze explains that the approved gestures is NOT dance. I can show you the document if you are interested.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
That was not the holy Father who put those dancers in - it was his master of ceremonies, Piero Marini, who is now out of a job for a very good reason...
FranciscoCojuanco 3 years ago
Psalm 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance
Psalm 150:4 Praise him with timbrel and dance
LATCHF 4 years ago
David danced before the Ark of the Covenant
LATCHF 4 years ago
Do you think the Vatican approves this kind of dance in the Sanctuary? Do you think they would approve this in the Mass? If you do, please read Spirit of the Liturgy by Ratzinger, or what Cardinal Arinze says about "dance".
pacislander4life 4 years ago
Nothing says miserable like Catholic Traditionalism!
LATCHF 4 years ago
hey its not about Catholic Traditionalism (I am not a traditionalist) or about being miserable, there is a place for everything and this is not place for it. To disobey the Church is to disobey Christ and the Church has spoken on what it thinks of liturgical dance.
timothyprescott 4 years ago
Damn pagans. what they (the enemies of the Church and all of its' infiltrators) have done to the Church is an offense beyond words.
rbeckvid 4 years ago 3
It's an abuse! It shud take place outside the mass, no exception. They dun understand the meaning of mass... But, No, it's not the fruit of Vatican 2.
alwyn84 4 years ago
It is after Mass... not during... still don't like it...
pacislander4life 4 years ago
It shudn't take place inside the Church where there's the host in the tabenacle... It shud take place in a place like parish hall or else...
alwyn84 4 years ago 2
Agreed
pacislander4life 4 years ago
A good example of the banality and stupidity of todays catholic liturgy - no wonders that so many of the faithful since these "reforms" does not bother to visit the Sundays "mass".
Crusaderforsweden 4 years ago 3
Hot dogs! Popcorn--get yer POPcoooorn!
charlesviolin 4 years ago 2
Ladies and Gentleman! The fruits of Vatican II in center ring!
charlesviolin 4 years ago 3
Y'all come back next Sunday for Riverdance.
Plescia 4 years ago 4
The whole religious mentality is very different than 40 years ago, and the sense of reverence and sacredness inside a church is rarely found nowadays. Sadly many faithful don't think there is anything wrong with various "creative" activities inside the church, and to many of them, church or sanctuary is really not that different than a performing stage.
theowind 4 years ago 4