Creationist Stumper #1: The Hawaiian-Emperor Chain

[modernrocks]

The "oldest" (bottom) layers on earth contain human artifacts. The geologic time scale is wrong.

[hellavadeal]

If radiometric dating has lava that was made 10 years old has being over 50 million years old? How can you trust any dates ? Have the plates always moved at the same rate? Has this been witnessed ? Reefs are under water aren't they? Floods do not effect reefs. Reefs grow a lot faster then you think. Your evidences is no better then your suppositions. This is based on naturalistic interpretations of facts not fact. Good try though.

[niqueth]

@hellavadeal Naturalistic interpretations as opposed to what? Supernatural interpretations? Reefs grow at a steady rate which is very well-documented. If they were growing as fast as they would need to for creationist time scales, the difference would be more than a little noticeable. Same goes for the motion of plates. The lava that was misdated was contaminated kind of like how your brain is contaminated with creationist drivel. Nice try though.

[ts3830]

few problems? there is no such thing as subduction, infact the opposite happends and extraction happends and new sea floor is draged from edges of contanants and is created from rifts and under sea volcanos. this accurs due to earth growth (expantion) google earth is perfect for demonstaiting this as it shows direction of contanants, rifs, large areas of smooth flat sea floor were this accurs. unfortunatly people prefer only to see and believe what they are told not whats obvious and logical

[niqueth]

@ts3830 No way, you're wrong. The earth is flat, it's so obvious when you look at google maps that it's flat not round, DUH. If it was round everyone in China would fall into outer space.

[tobytowmater]

@ts3830 Um, kind of tough to argue scientific fact when you can't even spell simple words, like rifts!

[ts3830]

@tobytowmater sad how people always bring up the spelling thing trying to be clever when if they thort before they opened there mouth they may realise some people are dislexic and some just forgot to type a letter. if you wish to discuss science im up for a dibate but if you just wish to throw insults at disabled people i sugest you do it with the other kids in school

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 Your pet theory is obviously and logically nutty. Not only is there no mechanism to explain expansion, it doesn't jibe with the data. The stable orbits of the planets could not be maintained if the planets were changing size and mass. Subduction is not only deduced but observed. An expanding earth hypothesis runs into a roadblock at 200 million years. The ridges (not rifs) much of the sea floor comes are in the middle of the ocean, not on the edges of continents.

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf i could give you several proven mechanisums for EE, can you give me 1 for PT? no! its proven that the planets are moving away from the sun and the moon away from us? tell me is this a stable orbit? only 1 case ever recorded of subduction? yes although most of newf sea floor comes from the middle of all the oceans this would mean all plate edges have subduction? the fact is none do?

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 Yes, that is a stable orbit. The moon is inching away due to tidal forcing. There's no way we'd have the system we would now w. expanding bodies. Think otherwise? Show me the model. The expanding earth has no proven mechanism, let alone several. No, subduction has been recorded repeatedly and it only takes one to show you're full of it. Tell me, what happened before 200 million years ago?

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf 1st thing is im not saying either EE or PT is fact as both use simular arguments for there case, in years to come there may be completly different theorys with different outcomes? the fact is we have just 2 to work on now and evidence/logic/and facts have to enter into it. geology/physics/ and observations must be key to any argument. so lets talk in calm sensable facts rather than insults please.

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 It's not an insult to point out you're full of it. You and other supporters; 1)Provide no real mechanism for EE. 2)Provide no model for how orbits could have remained stable for millions of years. 3) Don't make any effort at evidence other than pointing out the continents roughly fit together. 4)Can't account for all the geological evidence we have to date going back billions of years.

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf 1/ heat makes things expand? earth has very hot internals yes? 2/ as the earth spins mass inside is forced outwards from inside and pulled from outside inwards (gravity) as a void outside is less dence than whats inside it is simple logic that it will continue to expand outwards yes? 3/ as you agree all orbits are expanding outwards the increase in mass of every object would counter act attraction and repulsion? (like droping a magnet in liquid nitrgen)

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 1) Heat will not cause solids and liquids to expand to twice their normal size. Conversion of some material to gas would, but that would not be a steady expansion starting 200 million years ago. 2) If the earth spun fast enough to pull away from the center we would all be flung off of it. The poles would collapse in the center. The vacuum effect of space is countered by gravity, as discussed. 3) The outward expansion due to tidal effects is far to small to counter mass increases proposed

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf heat and conversion are both contributing factors but not sole cause, (now think why we have gas giants?) nobody has ever said EE started from day1? certain prosseses would need to happen 1st deep within the earth like fusion (example) as for gravity the crust is the focus point, everything inside like magma is attracted outwards and everything outside it like us etc are attracted inwards( this is point i was trying to make) have you study the attraction/repution method i mentioned?

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 "Conversion"? Who brought that up? What is it? The problem with your heat theory is that the temperature of the Earth has been going down slowly. And enough heat to make a 1% increase would make the surface unlivable. The surface is not the "focus point" of gravity. It is the boundary of the highest attraction. The force reduces to zero as one goes to the center but does not reverse. The magma below is under thousands of tons of pressure. Have you ever taken a university physics course?

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf ? did you actualy read my last post? obviously not? conversion(you broght it up so if you dont know what it means dont use it) heat is contributing factor not sole (as i previously said) i believe i said crust is focus point (as in most pull or attraction) (im fully aware of how gravity works its part of my job) preasure indeed and its releasing all the time? please read and try to understand my points correcty before replying so i dont have to keep repeating etc thanks

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 I wrote convection you imbecile (and yes, when you lie and obfuscate this much, insults are warranted) . Nor did you say anything about it being a contributing factor to expansion. Given you can't even spell it, I think it likely you don't even know what it is. Gravity below the surface is not reversed (ever been in a cave?). If your job requires you to understand gravity, you have failed. Your points would be easier to understand if you understood anything.

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf you wrote conversion im guessing you cany even read your own writing as its still on the post? and yes i wrote heat and conversion are both contributing factors not sole cause (wich is still in the post if you can be arsed to read it) and again io have never said shit about reverse gravity? if you read correctly you would see i put inside of crust (most attraction) is pushed outwards and outside crust is pulled inwards. this means crust is focal point of most gravity

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 My apologies. Yes, I wrote of the theoretical evaporation of rock as an explanation for this theoretical expansion. I also rejected it as ridiculous. If such was taking place we would not have a gradual doubling in 200 milion years. The Earth would explode like a popcorn kernel.

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 "again io have never said shit about reverse gravity?" Yes, you did. Right here: "if you read correctly you would see i put inside of crust (most attraction) is pushed outwards and outside crust is pulled inwards. this means crust is focal point of most gravity" The inside crust and mantle are not pushed outward No planet could remain coherent. The overall gravitational field is determined by the summation of all the atoms. At all points except the core the net pull is towards the core.

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf 1/ as you know the land masses are 4+ billion yrs old where the sea floor is a meer 180 million? i believe reaserch shows that air preasure and oxygen levels were far higher back then (prob an inbetween of venus and earth now?) this would also have an effect on the progresion of expantion. science tells us that the sun will one day grow to a giant and swallow all the planits up? can you explain were the extra mass comes from?

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 That's my point. PT explains this. EE fails to explain why there was no such effect from 4.5 billion to 200 million years ago. Air pressure was not much higher, just oxygen levels (certainly nowhere near Venus). If would have no effect on expansion. Sol, will not swallow all the planets, just the inner ones. The expansion will be due to greater density and heating of the inner core. No extra mass.

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf PT dose not explain anything? air preasure and oxygen levels would have an effect if you take into account this is what caused our oceans in the 1st place (take a long hard think about it? i dont have time to explain the whole prosess) the sun tripples in size because it gets denser and hotter? is this what your sugesting? and what causes this mirricle?

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 There is no evidence that air pressure was that high. Oxygen levels were not that high when the oceans formed. The sun will more than triple in size, but only the outer layers. The core gets denser. You've been studying this for 20 years and you don't know the basics? Takes 5 minutes on the internet to find this. Is your first sentence a question or a statement?

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf in your personel experience what is the driving force behind PT? can you explain any prosess that could cause several billion tons of granit to randomly float around the globe crashing into eachother ? then tell me how various planets of different sizes and structure were all formed into identical spheres ? if you have any data on subduction other than the only known incident please forward me it to go over thanks. when you can answer these i would gladly show you models and evidence

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 It's similar to what happens with weather systems and ocean currents. Currents in the mantel from convection do a lot of the driving. The expansion and cooling of the crust itself is also a contributor. The plates do not float randomly. The various planets formed into spheres due to gravity (EE theory doesn't say anything about that) and they are NOT identical. Subduction is not an incident. It is an ongoing, observed fact.

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf unfortunatly the maths and physics of this explination simply dont add up as there is no evidence to support it and the tidal forces needed to push huge land masses around are astranomical to imagine. EE can not only explain how things work here but also in the rest of our system? im not saying as a fact EE is correct and PT is wrong? im just going on reaserch, logic, and evidance at the present time? i will gradly give you some models etc to study and contimplate the possibility of it

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 How do you know they don't add up? You don't know the numbers or physics involved. EE explains nothing but matching of the continents and is not very good at that. EE contradicts many other facts in astronomy, physics, geology, e.t.c..

Yes, some real models would be nice.

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf we all know they dont add up and yes i have figures ive been studying it for 20yrs, what contradicts EE? science has observed an expanding universe has it not? as ive ementioned physics dose suport it, andso dose geology?

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 Ok, let's have figures. Reading pseudoscience diatribes is poor studying. You don't even know basic physics or geology or cosmology. You don't understand the difference between expanding space and a body increasing in mass. I doubt you have any reliable figures, but let's give it a test: How much energy is involved in moving the plates? How much energy is released through heat transfer from the earth? Where did you get these figures and how did you perform the calculations?

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf there are so many things we close our eyes to because we can not understand, let me give you few things to think on before i give models etc. why are the planets nearest the sun small and get larger the further away they get? why gas giants? how are suns formed? why is the universe expanding?

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 What do those have to do w. EE? The existence of smaller, denser planets towards the center is believed to be due to sorting that occurred as the system formed. As Sol fired up, lighter elements close to the sun were expelled.

[ts3830]

@Maxdwolf as you are obviously incapable of reading and understanding anything in english longer than a 4 letter word you are no longer worth my time. if in future you lern to read and finish school (eventualy) get back to me and i will gladly finish your education. lets face it you need some help lol

[Maxdwolf]

@ts3830 Kid, your posts are full of misspellings and improper use of question marks. Your "understanding" of even basic physics is pitiful. I wouldn't trust you to educate a 5 year old.

You claim to have studied the topic for 20 years. What schools did you go to? What degrees do you hold? What papers have you published? You claimed you could provide mechanisms. I'm still waiting. You claim your job requires understanding gravity. What job is that?

[ScienceWars]

@ts3830 You can't even spell "continents". Your opinion on any matters relating to geology or science are of no consequence.

[kenokagi]

Nice vid. Of course, you can't use logic, reason and evidence to talk someone out of a belief or opinion that they didn't arrive at through logic, reason and evidence. Sad. I took a quick look through the comments, and didn't see an error addressed. You stated that only the southWEST islands are still active, and that the Pacific plate is moving to the northEAST. It's the southEAST island (Hawaii island) that's still active, and the plate is moving northWEST. I should know. I live there.

[niqueth]

@kenokagi Yes, that makes sense, it would have to be moving northwest.

[DrSpooglemon]

Very interesting. However, no matter how fine a point you put on it. No matter how much evidence you have for this (or any other) theory. You will not persuade religious people that their rediculous ideas are nonsense. They have something you do not. They have unquestioning faith. You cannot reason with a mind like that. It is unfortunate...

[niqueth]

@DrSpooglemon Good point.

[Thinqingman]

All that people of religion, whether Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or Hindu need to explain is why they can't get together and see the commonality in their scriptures. The so-called scientists and pseudo-scientific proponents have far more explaining to do, and some fundamental honesty would be a good place to start. For example, they need to be honest about the fact that their own set of facts, and interpretation(s) of those facts keep changing. Also, nothing is ever really 'known'.

[BanjoKiD2K]

@Thinqingman

Its only really all Abrahamic religions that are not in touch with Science

[Maxdwolf]

@BanjoKiD2K Sorry, no. There are Hindu creationists as well. I've heard a lot of nutty stuff from Wiccans as well (though not as regards evolution).

[Thinqingman]

@BanjoKiD2K And, yet, if one actually reads instead of allowing youtube videos to be one's only source of information, one learns just how much science underlies all true religions.

[Cennedi]

Catholics are not YEC believers nor are the followers of Islam but both faiths believe in creation so what have you proven? I see the comment that every year more people shy away from the idiocy of creationism and yet religion is spreading in PRC and the Islamic populations of the world are growing in population each year. Islam is growing in Europe at a much faster rate than atheism or any other belief system? Accept the fact that atheism is losing the war and will one day be extinct.

[niqueth]

This video is for YEC's obviously. I realize there is more than one kind of creationism. Do you really expect me to refute them all in one video?

"Accept the fact that atheism is losing the war and will one day be extinct."

Oh OK, well I guess I should just keep my mouth shut then. Thanks for setting me straight!

[Cennedi]

No problem.. enjoy the freedom you have to bash religion while you can. Once Sharia comes you will not be able to do so without repercussion. I think that is probably why you and those like you tend to attack Christianity and avoid saying anything negative about the other two monotheist faiths. Christianity is a easy target because most Christians would never consider seeking revenge for the attack on their faith.

[niqueth]

Islam is bullshit. Muslims are much more afraid of atheists than Christians because unlike Christians, we have the upper hand on all religious bullshit. What do you think of that, punk?

[Cennedi]

I think that you are a joke of a coward who is so insecure in his own belief system that he feels the need to attack other persons in a lame attempt to make yourself feel better about living what is a ultimately worthless life.

I know that you would never dare speak poorly of Islam in the same room as a Muslim out of fear. I would rather live by stone age wisdom than embrace modern age immorality.

[niqueth]

*yawn

[yogurtking]

very good exposition! I'm going to use this on my creation-tard acquaintances. Not that good rational ever helped before, but we must be tireless in our efforts. Every generation shies away from this idiocy, and it is by efforts such as yours this happens.

[niqueth]

Thanks! Feel free to use it. Send me a link if you don't mind.

[musekiteer]

Poor creationists! They are trapped between science and an errant Bible (or Torah, or Qur'an).

They cope with the evidence by denying it. The educated creationists are lying. Their ignorant dupes have been brainwashed into thinking that any facts that contradict their self-interested beliefs must be malicious lies.

My impression is that fundamentalism loses more "believers" than the moderate branches of Xianity. Rigid structures are prone to catastrophic failure.

;}

[Cennedi]

Perhaps you would like to walk into the nearest mosque or take a trip to iraq and explain to the people you find there that their creation myths are wrong?

[niqueth]

No thanks, you can keep your iron age fairy tales and live in a theocracy. I'll stay in the US where we have religious freedom.

[musekiteer]

Argumentum ad numerum followed by argumentum ad metum. Congratulations on winning the Delusional And Fallacious Temerity Award, aka the DAFT Award.

[Cennedi]

I am not appealing to fear I am calling the OP and those who agree with him cowards as none of you would dream of speaking this way were you in the same room with a group of devout Muslims. You lack conviction so spend your limited time on this planet attacking those people who do.

And argumentum ad metum? That is the basis of your whole argument and position. I believe in the goodness of science but do not follow scientist with blind loyalty because as often as not the science is wrong.

[niqueth]

"none of you would dream of speaking this way were you in the same room with a group of devout Muslims."

Why wouldn't I? What is your point? What would happen if I did?

[musekiteer]

And you lack any demonstrable, replicable scientific evidence for your borrowed fairy tales. So you spend your time spouting fallacies of logic, threats, irrelevances, and insults because of your self-interested belief in delusional myths.

I imagine that doing this makes you feel that you are doing something useful to defend a non-existent "Allah". Actually, you merely make Islam look worse -- if that were possible. Ultimately, breeding like rabbits will not win the debate.

[Cennedi]

Actually breeding like rabbits while western culture slowly becomes extinct do to a lack of reproduction will in the debate :) That is cold hard logic backed by scientific fact. Do not believe me? look at europe.

There are no fallacies of logic in my post nor any threats of any kind, only my observation and opinion on your lack of character and twisted motivations. My life has been given meaning while yours is meaningless. I wish you the best in your faithless delusions.

[musekiteer]

You are a walking, talking, bragging purveyor of fallacies of logic and insults. Creationism is falsified. If you wish to look ignorant, go ahead and trumpet your ignorant beliefs.

[niqueth]

This might not have occurred to you, but the size of the Muslim population has absolutely no bearing on the validity of Islam. If you want to make the case for Islamic creation, lay it on me. Otherwise, STFU.

I don't even understand why you decided to comment on this video since it has nothing to do with Islam. It seems like you came here simply looking for a fight. Is that what your religion of peace teaches you to do? Because to everyone else it just makes you look like a fucktarded loser.

[Cennedi]

Actually the fact that Islam continues to spread around the world and the numbers of Muslims continues to grow while your kind do not reproduce is great enough numbers even to sustain your culture means the outcome of this debate is a forgone conclusion.

As there are more Muslims and Christians in the world than there are atheist i would say that to the majority of the people it is you who looks foolish and I that speak the commonly accepted wisdom while you worship at the feet of men.

[niqueth]

That's what I thought. You don't have shit but an appeal to popularity. Pretty pathetic. Bye.

[zakiechan]

Fantastic video!

[TrenchantAtheist]

How did a 4,600-foot thick reef develop in less than the time science says it did?

Easy! According to Last Thursday-ism (the religious belief that everything was created last Thursday, and that your memories are false implants by an omnipotent god named "Thurs")

... it was all made that way. Instantly. Last week.

[lawilson200]

Good job!  Of course, most YEC nutballs will ever give you a straight answer.

[niqueth]

Believe me, I know!

[flyingscience]

Very well done . I think its too high brow for creationists , but fine for the rest of us .Another good topic would be geographical isolation of unique animals on islands /caves found nowhere else .

[sophophilo]

nice :)