A Law School Carol Part 1

[sweetheart2109]

Why don't law school graduates start their own law firm

[frogca]

Law School is a huge scam. For example, I thought about attending in the early 90s, glad I did not. In So. Calif, we've always had UCLA, USC, Loyola, and UC San Diego. Now, Chapman, UC Irvine, Whittier, Western State, all of which are located in Orange County. You also have a ton of non-accredited schools in the area. Oh, I forgot Southwestern. 9 ABA law schools nearly right next to each other.

[TeslaTechnologyRocks]

In June it was on the news that a 25 year old law grad who passed the bar her first time could not make money practicing law so she resorted to prostitution and was charging only $50 for sex. She was arrested. See the Youtube news video called:

Lawyer Arrested For Prostitution! (Accused Of Selling Sex For $50)

[WarrenAch]

unless"

[ThePoorParalegal]

This is hilarious! Beware of the inflated law school placement statistics!

[Gullathekid]

check out "Gulla-I Hate Law School" for another funny music video

[spykeize]

You JDU guys are so dumb. I like what you're trying to do with these blogs and random JDU posts, but the thing is that people that attend these TTTs really aren't going to decide not to go because of what you post. Odds are they won't ever read or view any of this shit until after they graduate. Also, you're work would be a lot more credible if you added some real context to it

[34thstreetman]

Geoffrey Feiger went to Detroit College of law and is hugely successful. Feiger was Dr. Kervorkian's lawyer.

[1dgg9h4dr6ppp8]

Law school is fucken gay. If you are going you should drop out and find a real career.

[wowhornby]

why aren't any of these god damn politicians speaking up about this? how much do they get paid for their crappy graduation speeches?

[nauticalx1]

You should have also mentioned that even if he is able to work himself into the top 5 % and get a big law job that he'll work like a slave trying to get his 1900+ billable hours, working until 7 pm daily, often on weekends, eating dinner in the office, gaining a lot of weight, until he wears himself out in about 2 years and leaves like the vast majority of big law lawyers.

[Whippersnapper7]

I wonder what will happen when JDs begin to involuntarily default on their massive student loans in record numbers. If you have $150,000 in student loan debt but cannot find a job, you will probably end up defaulting on your loan even if you do not want to. Sadly, that might also result in disbarment and the complete loss of the value of people's college educations since it could prevent them from obtaining a law license in other states. It's Kafkaesque.

[davekaveh]

so sad

[davekaveh]

haha

[esqnever]

@pdruiz2005 - Glad to hear it! Trust me, you're saving yourself a lot of future anguish.

[WarrenAch]

So,you're gonna decline an acceptation because some spoiled fuckers from the internet told you that the market is "saturated" ?Comon...sure it won't pay that high in the first few years,it's like this with most other jobs...if you like law,you won't have problems making money...since the top firms only take experienced people,you should just work your ass up to this level and enjoy it...

Making your own business is also dangerous so you don't have much choices...

[esqnever]

No, he's turning down this "invitation" because 150k is a lot to gamble when plenty of people with good credentials and from good schools have little to show for three years of law school but their debts.

It certainly is better than taking the word of some self interested law deans and COS about full employment at 9 months and average starting salaries that are inflated (if not outright fabricated).

[WarrenAch]

Simple,if you don't have the money and think you'll become a slave because of debts,don't even bother to apply,some morons end up with tons of debts and they wonder why they cant live a decent life.

Get the money first,apply next.

[esqnever]

There's more problems with LS than the debt; job prospects are still limited even out of good schools and if you realize you made a mistake, getting out of the law industry is made quite difficult with a J.D. on the resume.

I agree that earning the money to go to school beforehand is a good idea. It, however, will take a while to earn the $150k necessary to fund LS. By the time you do, you could be old enough to face discrimination in hiring. Plus, you hopefully will have found a better field.

[WarrenAch]

It's sad for you guys then,here in Canada,it costs like 10-20k to the entire degree and you're assured to find a good job straight out...

Also,i'm doing sometime in the reserves and they will pay like 60% of my studies ...i can leave when ever i want...1 more year and i'll get that financial help,even though i can pay the 10-20k...lol

It's the same system in the U.S. as well,some time in the army will get you enough money to start fresh.

[eltarot]

The fact that you are not committed to some Corporate Advocacy Conglomerate responding to its main client, The Devil, is, to a certain extent, the equivalent of having tremendous assets at a spiritual level. So keep the videos coming and consider me your fan!

[eltarot]

esqnever - Realize that poverty is to a certain extent liberating... Have you some place to eat? Well, then it can't be so bad, certainly not so much as to justify being bitter. Sooner or later what you learned will come in handy, even if not lucrative.

[eltarot]

Hey! Congratulations on an excellent video... I think it is about time people in the U.S. recognize that the myth of "merit pay" as dictated by the ever so "fair invisible hand" of the market is nothing but right wing propaganda. MANY PEOPLE WORK MUCH FOR LITTLE... let's start the list with teachers. Fear not credit bureaus! I am currently in Law School and if it doesn't pay off the student loans, then some Bankruptcy Court will have to hear my elegantly concocted pro se plea.

[ptothegizzo]

@eltarot Dude, I'm so sorry to break it to you, but bankruptcy does not affect your student loan obligations. Blame the spoiled med students of the '70s and '80s who abused the system for that one.

[eltarot]

Yes I know that is true, but... If ever I come to point where I have to choose between paying back my loans or eating, paying back Stafford Loans goes last on my list. In Puerto Rico they can't put you in jail because of debt. A reasonable judge can help a down and out student by allowing deferrment. Or if push comes to shove then they can disbar the bankrupt soul, but if you don't have an equitable job as a lawyer, anyway, who will then care. Money woes come and go, but never knowledge...

[Nimabu]

Okay, really if you're in a Puerto Rican Law School your debt will never amount to 150k that's first and second the job market in PR is mimicking the same thing that's happening in the States. I know a LOT of people who just graduated, passed the Bar and are still unemployed.

[eltarot]

I would not contest that many people have realized they made a serious mistake attending LS. In PR the situation is quite scary, but on that same token I would have to say that there is intrinsic worth in attaining a degree. I mean if we don't find positive aspects to the situation then surely we are doomed...

[eltarot]

For instance, PR Law Degrees have the added drawback that as a "territroy" of the US we have less rights than normal US Citizens but are obliged to abide by the same laws. In other words, we are constrained by Federal Law yet have no say whatsoever in how it is written. We live with this truth but many of us see through it and try to look at things on the bright side.

[Nimabu]

I know what you're talking about, I went to Law School and I agree with you about the intrinsic value of the degree I just think schools, as a whole, perpetuate this fallacy about what being a Lawyer is supposed to be that when we graduate we all expect to hear Big Law knocking at our doors.

[Nimabu]

If the schools got off their high horses and started teaching their students the various things you could do with a Law degree, instead of aspiring to be a desk monkey at McV, things would be different. And no the solution, in my opinion, is not to tell your students to open their own offices right out of law school.

[AMattDavidFilm]

Almost 7,000 views. Great job in breaking through the ABA's code of silence.

[eltarot]

The average salary for a 1st year Associate here is 30k max. We have close to 20% unemployment. I do not expect any professional organization to save me from this reality, I do not expect my university to get me a job. What I do expect is that none of these entities tell me how to live. So, according to my world view debt is low on the priority list and credit scores are akin to toilet paper . So I owe Stafford? If I dont get a job Stafford wont get paid. Simple.

[jacobins3000]

I can't understand this obsession law students have with "big law", heaven forbid they end up at a small firm with starting salary of a mere 80 fucking thousand. Law students are a bunch a of spoiled rich kids who have no idea what the average person makes in this country. They think they have a God given right to make 200K a year.

[esqnever]

Yes, I made this video because I'm "only" going to make 80k a year.

Tell you what, if you find a small firm job anywhere that pays anything near that for an entry level position, post it here. If you do, I'm sure that firm's fax will literally melt due to the volume of responses.

Sorry, my friend, small firm jobs are going for around $35k these days. You're luck if you can get $50k. Not exactly worth three years of LS and six figures of debt.

[B21983]

@esqnever agreed, so why did you take on the debt in the first place? My feeling is a lot of people cannot accept (i'm not saying you are one of them) that they screwed up, so they blame others - law schools, the ABA, society -- not that I think law schools are without blame in all this, but no one forced you to go to law school, to take debt, and no one forced you not to research the legal field before entering.

[esqnever]

@B21983 There isn't room here for a full debate, but culpability aside, the point of these videos, blogs, etc. is to give prospective students the opposing side of what the law school cartel claims in order to help them make more informed decisions.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 I think the point is that there is really not a single source of information that a young person has that would give them the downside or make them think twice about the profession, at least until the last few years with videos like these, JD Underground, etc. I never heard a single person in college, or society, or at the law schools I talked to mention any of the downsides. Once I've been through it, I know a hundred of them. But how can you know if no one tells you?

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Open sources are lacking - look, I totally agree that Law Schools are not nearly as open and honest as they should be and that this is a travesty. However, don't you think someone going to law school, taking $100K+ in debt has some obligation to research? All you need to do is contact some firms, email or call associates. Ask the law school when on tour "your median is $120,000 salary - what is the average salary?" "What percentage didn't report salary?"

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 Which law firm is it that's going to tell law students negative things about being a lawyer and try to decrease competition for the jobs they're offering...? I didn't see them in the NALP guide. What are you going to do, email the attorneys privately and ask them if they hate their job/if it's worth it? Through their work email? Or are you going to ask them for their private email through their work email, over the phone, or in person? Or call them/try to meet with them and ask them?

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Law firms, at least major ones, believe it or not would rather not have associates who they know will leave in a year b/c they can't tolerate the job. Sure, it happens anyway, but you wouldn't go to an interview and say "I hate long hours". If you do, they do themselves a favour by letting you know the firm isnt the place for you.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 @B21983 Law firms have an interest in making the jobs they're offering as competitive as possible. It does them no good to give any impression other than that IS the end-all be-all/summit of accomplishment. Their interest is in everyone scrambling over each other, fighting over, and stressing over the scaps/jobs they offer.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat A firm has no interest in telling you "this job is awful" -- but associates, when asked in private about the job are honest. That has been my overwhelming experience. Firms also will tell you what their billable hours are like -- it is the student that is afraid to ask for fear of being thought of as 'lazy'. But ask for it, and they will tell. I spoke not too long ago with a partner at a major NYC firm, OK, she was a family friend, but she did say flat out "this job was hell"

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 I think I would have worried about the associate's loyalty being to the firm when I was in college. I've heard of people being warned away, but I felt like I only got the sales pitch from associates I interviewed with. None come to mind that I felt I could have a "real" conversation with. And it's all such a corporate conversation anyways. It's so fake, plastic, and shallow, I didn't see any way to pierce that.

[mnhepcat]

@mnhepcat I don't know how you got to that level with associates, but I never found it, even at the cocktail soirees. Of course, I didn't like any of them either, so that could have something to do with it. And anyways I was already committed to law school at that point. Maybe I could have asked law firm associates when I was in college, but I admit to not having that foresight, and I think that almost never happens.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat you're right, that foresight almost never happens. But, I'm just saying that is the young student's fault, not the law schools or the ABA - as despicable as they are nonetheless. I just think some of these scambloggers - while doing a good service generally, need to accept some personally responsibility for their own shitty predicament.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Obviously the interviewers are all bullshit. I just mean quietly ask the everyday associate working. Sending an email saying "I am interested in law school and a legal career and think I would like to work at a big firm, could you tell me about your experiences?" Believe me, you will get a lot of honest responses, perhaps not all "I want to kill myself" but more subtle "well the pay is great, but the hours are very, very long, I'm usually working friday and saturday nights"

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 Yeah, that's a smart move. Wish I had thought of it. Also though, I don't think it would have discouraged me, because I was used to long hours and tough work, having been in the military for 5 years before college. That was the last thing that I thought would discourage me. I expect long hours for great pay. The things that sent me packing were more intangible things that I can never, ever, every get across to people not in the field.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat On a side note, thank you for your service in the Armed Forces. I am forever in your debt (though thankfully not law school debt).

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 Thanks. I didn't think I could hate anything as much as the army, but law school and a law firm was competitive. At least in the army I was doing something real and at least occasionally interesting/exciting.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Well, as bad as it might be, you should have a good future. You have an army background and went to a good law school and worked at a big firm. You aren't forever stuck, as, sadly, many of your "lesser" colleagues are.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 You didn't work at OMM in NYC did you? Because you sound like someone I know...

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Ha, no i did not, be he sounds brilliant :-)

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 Yeah, a friend of a friend is from Canada, went to law school in NYC, worked at an M&A firm, is an econ nerd, etc. So... ha =]

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Yes, you can email attorneys and ask for advice. I did. I got plenty of responses. People are pretty honest and they like giving advice.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 That was good thinking on your part. But that's a risky move. What makes a college student think that someone employed at a law firm is going to be more loyal to telling some random kid the truth v. their own firm? What makes that kid think that associate isn't going to tell other people at the firm you might not be enthusiastic enough?

[B21983]

@mnhepcat How about asking your college pre-law advisor? Almost all of them were likely former law school grads and attorneys. You say, "make them think twice", but let us be honest - how many law students do you know that went because they didn't know what to do with a liberal arts degree and how dumb can one be to think going to a third tier school would open doors to the biggest in the corporate world? The student is not entirely to blame, but he/she does bear some responsibility

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 Which pre-law advisor is it that's going to tell you negative things about law school and the legal profession? I guess neither I nor my friends have met them either. Most people in grad school period are only there because they don't have a clear vision of what to do other than that. I'm just saying the decision is a lot harder to make when there is no one who is going to tell you the negatives.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Although I am Canadian, I went to school in the US. I already knew about the legal profession and life at BigLaw. A friend of mine was considereing LS, i told him to talk to the pre-law advisor and ask about career prospects and life at a big firm (the pre-law advisor formerly worked BigLaw)....

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Guess what, the pre-law advisor dissauded him from law school. Sad thing is, most students never asked the advisor about the legal profession, just what schools they could get into and to look at their personal statements. No one can help if you don't ask.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 That is true. A lot of people definitely don't ask. I will say though that one reason people don't ask is that they've never heard a question their whole life whether being a lawyer is a good/great occupation or not. It's not even a question, everyone "knows" that lawyers are rich, respected, and do "intellectual" work. People don't assume being a rock star sucks either, though it might. But no one asks that before becoming one.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat You are right. But that is part of the tragedy, and I can blame the ABA and law schools for lots of things - but not for students who are too immature to do research on a $150K investment. 22 yr olds are not babies and I wont treat them as such. I've heard amazing things about certain stocks or industries -- but would I invest loads of money in it just on what I heard? Law schools need to be more transparent and colleges more on guard for their students. I have no quarrel with you ther

[B21983]

@mnhepcat A recent survey showed that even prospective students who were made aware at the horrible job market for lawyers polled that while they had doubts whether their classmates would get jobs following law school, they were confident they'd be employed. The Law Schools are morally repugnant for allowing in/taking advantage of such deluded people, but they're not the cause of the delusion.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 I heard about that. That is insane. I mean, who knows, but I'd like to think that if I'd see "So You Want To Go To Law School," and heard a bunch of things like it, I would have thought twice. I almost dropped out of law school, and only stayed because of the name of my school. Maybe a mistake, maybe not. Time will tell. It certainly was a mistake in the short term. Anyways, I almost did leave even in the middle of it, and would have if I hadn't missed the app deadline for grad programs.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 It's part of the lawyer syndrome though. Thinking you're awesome because you're so smart and hardworking...like no one else in the world is. And that you'll succeed in the face of all these dumb-asses. Yet at the same time being horribly anxious that you can't hack it. It's a sick personality that I can't stand to be around.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 And even if you go to those top schools and get those jobs, your life STILL might suck. I went to two top schools and into a big firm, and I had no idea how miserable the law profession was until AFTER already committing to law school and then working in the profession. Even WITH the money the profession tends to suck ass. If hating your life is worth it for the money, that's cool, but it's a trade-off that most law students aren't aware of until they've already committed.

[mnhepcat]

@mnhepcat And it wasn't the hours that made it miserable. I worked many harder hours in shittier, lower paying jobs than at my law firm. It was the work itself, the most boring thing I've ever done, and the people I was around, the most boring people I've ever been around. In addition to assholes, etc.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat It will suck, BigLaw is barely better than slavery, actually, at least slaves had the nights off. Again, would it be so hard to email or fbook a friend from the previous graduating class and ask "hey, how is XYZ LLP?" or to ask or find out billable hour requirements? The problem here is lack of foresight. People go into PoliSci for, god knows why, then they are forced to go into law school, then even top students go to BigLaw w/out researching it first.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 When I was in college FB didn't exist, nor did YT, and I was just getting around to using email on a daily basis, and then just barely. I didn't have any friends who were ahead of me in school. And anyways, for that purpose, they'd have to be 5 or more years ahead of you in school to give you an idea about the profession, though they could advise you about law school//what they've heard about or their internship.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 I'm almost starting to think it's not just law school that's a scam, but higher ed generally. I DO think college is great for thinking people, as are liberal arts degrees. I know I'm unquantifiably better at thinking and as a human being for my college experience. But it's become this minimum requirement for jobs now, and really a college degree means nothing more than that you can fog a mirror. Which is why people count on professional school to set themselves apart/find better careers.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Absolutely right. Higher ed generally, at least BAs are a scam. Another problem is government money. With the best of intentions, the Feds made it too easy to get a loan. Functionally retarded people can get loans for law school. The result, as any good economist would tell you, is higher prices and a surplus of unemployable graduates. Not to bash, what is really, my country too (dual citizen), and I love the USA, but your gov with housing and education fucked shit up.

[mnhepcat]

@B21983 Most people don't need a college education to do their jobs, and I'd venture that many if not most college students have no interest in learning anyways. Since they're just doing it as a job requirement, and since most office jobs are very Office Spacey and don't require any real thinking or knowledge, that requirement should just be dropped except for specialized fields. Save everyone a lot of time, money, and energy.

[B21983]

@mnhepcat Agreed, do tell that to your president* who wants to expand the number of people going to university.

*OK technically he is my president too, but whenever I am dissappointed in POTUS I remember that we Canucks have Her Majesty the Queen as our Head of State, and she doesn't screw us over like your politicos.

[ptothegizzo]

Um, I went to law school in Manhattan (and did average) and work at a small firm *in Manattan,* and I don't make nearly $80K. Since I'm neither spoiled nor rich and I support myself, in my first year of practice I had to couch surf because I couldn't afford the apartment I had lived in working part time and living off student loans. I have friends who did very well in school who, like myself, have to earn outside income to make ends meet because we're all in about $180K of debt. #realitycheck

[jmk96]

This is what makes it more depressing for law school grads. People everywhere seem to think we all want big firm jobs with big salaries. I have no desire to work in a big firm; it doesn't matter. I would gladly take a job that pays $20K at this point. You are just contributing to the misconception there are plenty of law jobs out there--we "spoiled rich kids" just don't want them. My father drives a school bus and my mother is a homemaker. So no, I am not a "spoiled rich kid." And I have no job.

[Valce1]

@jmk96 I feel for you :( With this economy it is hard to get a job. Good luck! Don't give up :)

[unperson102]

nice!