Divine impulses: Hitchens: the trouble with islam 6 of 7

[DroppinTruth]

Cont. and such a thing (for a religion to be superior in all these fields) seems impossible in the eyes of non muslims, this can only be the fruit of truth. islam is, without a shadow of a doubt, a clear truth of our very existence and our creator. alhamdulilahi rabbyl aallamean, " Praise be to the Lord of All that exists"

[DroppinTruth]

And to add to this, the Quran is to be critiqued in arabic and those who have studied it realize that it has its own linguistic style and feature. It isn't poetry nor prose and for 1400 years no one has been able to imitate or recreate something similar. Western orientalists who have studied arabic in the past have made statements throughout history. He doesn't tell you that though, instead he mocks it from his english-speaking narrow minded view. A religion superior in secular & relig. fields.

[PAULOcbi]

@DroppinTruth Religions are like fireflies ,they need darkness to shine. Which is why the followers of this 6th century religion written by tribal,uneducated men who still pick their nose are mostly ignorant and uneducated themselves,most have never read Quran fully nor any other meta-physical work in their life and I guarantee you dont have and never will own a library card. Of course you dont have a library card,thats a given,I wager my eyes on it.

[DroppinTruth]

it's obvious this guy knows nothing about islam, he's trying to make it look like he does. every muslim that knows his deen would laugh at this

this is the real problem he is facing: Islam is superior in every field be it economics, politics, morality etc and its followers grow daily. People are coming to it. "Fortunately, historians are now beginning to recognise the historic role of Islam as a liberating force for peoples oppressed by the burdens of unjust social systems." - Aly Khan

[thescorpionking2020]

quran is quite a stupid book,repeats all d myths of d bible as historic facts obviously showing dat mohammad and his cirminal gang believed dat adam and eve,noah's ark,jonas in a whale and other jwish and christian myths were historic facts and dats y they r mentioned as historic facts in d quran,wich we obviously know they arent,quran is nothing but a book of mythology stupid fables and pre islamic pagan bullshit about jinns and bla bla bla

[bakayurei]

and pioneers of science, resurrectors of old knowledge and all of that.. the astrological, medical, mathematical, logical (&c.) knowledge that the early muslims wrote down, figured out, discovered, notice that it didn't rely on qur'anic revelation as a source at all.. the early muslims, i think, had a far better understanding of what islam, being as it is the end of the age of revelation, stands for, than anybody around today (especially so-called muslims)

[bakayurei]

the way i see it, and agree or not, whether you're a muslim or whatever, is: if muhammad is the seal of prohethood, and if the qur'an was the final revelation of god, then the age of prophethood and revelation came to an end with muhammad and the qur'an.. and if the age of prophethood and revelation has come to an end, then we're in the age of scientific discovery and empiricism.. and i (very strongly) believe that this can be demonstrated by the fact that the early muslims were scientists

[bulletman100]

the interviewer has Lack of Personality Disorder.

[paginipro]

god = logic  theoreticalphysics.webs.com

[KLSeba]

@hempartist420

I went to Integrated Islamic School Shah Alam - Kuala Lumpur. International Islamic school, mostly for ex-patriots. Followed by another local school, and finally City University, London Aeronautical Engineering - Avionics.

In my family I'm 1st generation atheist, my children are growing in entirely religion free environment.

I encourage them to read about religion, due to its huge influence on literature, architecture, arts and culture. From Judaism to Islam, Christianity etc..

[KLSeba]

@hempartist420

Couldn't agree more. Imagine I had to read it for over 14 years as a kid. I also had to recite in my school.

Thank god (pun intended) the indoctrination never skin in.

[Gonzoidzz]

It's an evil LIE

[henhelm]

HItchens would get owned by an Islamic scholar. I'm no scholar, however I could destroy his arguments against Islam quickly. I am actually surprised that he gets the attention that he does.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200 Where do I begin? First of all how can Islam be a "plagiarism" of Christianity and Judaism? A small example, if the Quran were to state that Jesus (PBUH) was crucified or that he was GOD we might be able to develop a pathetic argument that Islam is plagiarism.  In fact, the Quran states quite the opposite and brings to light what Christianity and Judaism have lost over the centuries through the venality of their "scholars."

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

The details of the books are each written in a similar primitive fashion. Certain details might differ, but its clear that more or less the same society of people wrote them. I know the quran is written 600 years after the bible. What I mean is that the people really arent particularly different. Theyre just as stupid.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200 First, let me correct you. The Quran was not written 600 years after the Bible. The "Bible" was compiled during the council of Nicea in the 4th century. The Quran was revealed in the 7th century. So, you are off by about 300 years. Moreover, stating that "...the same society of people wrote them" is ambiguous and is unsupported. In other words, you are just making general statements that are neither here nor there.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200 Can you please explain what you mean by a "primitive fashion"? Let's not be ambiguous.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

By primitive I mean its horrendous violence, intolerance of others and even larger intolerance of free thought. There are women even today who are still being stoned to death for "crimes" that are nothing more than an expression of oneself. In fact, just the other day I saw a video of a woman being whipped in public by authorities because she was wearing trousers under her robes. If thats not primitive, I dont know what is.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Well, before I give you a thought out reply, can you please give me some examples of horrendous violence, intolerance of others, and intolerance of free thought? I would like you to explain this citing the Quran or Hadiths as the source approving these accusations.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

Are you kidding me?

Ive never read the quran. Instead, I look at the middle east and other predominantly islamic republics such as indonesia. Free expression in those nations, intelligence, any semblance of scientific inquiry, or even the smallest expression of simple human rights in those nations are nonexistent. The people inhabiting them even today are dirt poor,stupid, ignorant, superstitious morons all because of your islam. I dont understand why I even have to spell this out.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Well, that's the problem. You haven't read the Quran or Hadiths. You base your opinion on these supposed "Islamic" countries. So, Islam may not be so much the problem as their mendacious interpretation of Islam. Unfortunately, these countries enervate the religion of Islam and people like you who lazily research this religion suffer. Also, The accusation that intellegence and scientifc inquiry don't exist in the Muslim world is unfouded.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

Youve got to blind if you think intelligence and scientific inquiry exist in the slightest in any islamic country. It would be complete and utter hypocrisy if they did. I feel like the islam you see is not the real islam.

Can you justify all of the violence and unrest going on in the middle east currently, or the points I brought up earlier about terrorism, cartoons and Salman Rushdie?

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Well, I think I already implicityly have? The question is how do you justify Salman Rushdie and the vulgar cartoons? That's the free thought that you are talking about? When I think of free thought it is mathematics, science,etc. When you think of free thought it's your mother running around in a bikini while you contemplate how wonderful it is living in a "civilized" society.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

No my friend. I also think of science and mathematics which are completely nonexistent in any islamic republic. I dont understand why this is even a debate. However, If I want to think about a naked girl, I should have a perfectly good right to. Islam is the definition of fascism.

I dont understand what you mean when you ask me to justify the cartoons. I dont think theyre vulgar and I dont think rushdies book is vulgar either. Neither is a book critisizing atheism.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

One of the main distinctions of fascism is the will and ability to commit violence and wage wars in order to keep the nation strong. Wouldn't you agree that America is the epitome of this? Bush defined pre-emptive if my recollection serves me right. And Obama's CIA is launching drone strikes daily. There you have it, violence and wars.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

When I think of fascism I think of the state denying people their rights to free speech, free expression, free oppurtunity to do anything within the realms of legality. (Realms that are fair and unbiased)

However, in order to avoid the confusion that plauges these sort of discussions, tell me exactly what sort of social aspects of life you think should be prevented and/or regulated.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Well, all of the societal problems that plague most of the world, especially the West. Drugs, alcohol, any form of monetary interest, gambling, prostitution, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, abortion, pornography, licensure for conducting trade/business, animal slaughtering methods, and I'm sure there is much more...that's just off the top of my head.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

If you were in power, would you enact laws that would specifically prohibit use of drugs and alcohol, interest, gambling, prostitution, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, abortion, pornography, animal slaughtering, (can you elaborate on exactly what you mean by licensure for conducting trade/business) and jail those who broke them?

Because to me, and other sane people, in certain doses and forms some of those are problems, but most of them arent.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Well, you make an Islamic point. The Quran states there is some benefit in gambling and alcohol, but the bad far outweighs the good, therefore it is prohibited. Now you say "...most of them arent", do you have any scientific or statistical or psychologically-based proof, or is that just gut feeling?

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

Some have economic good to them, such as drug legalization. If you think the entire nation would go into a frenzied trip, just look at portugal. It legalized all drugs in 2001 and drug use, drug related deaths, drug violence all went down. I believe some other west european nations have now followed suit. Gambling undoubtedly has economic benefits, not to the gambler, but thats where personal responsibily comes in. --

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

-- If people werent responsible, then all of these would have to be illegal. And of course some people arent responsoble, but thats just life. You cant make a general practice out of an exceptional case. Just because gambling is legal doesnt mean you should constantly do it. But just because there is some bad to it, doesnt mean it should be banned to everyone. People should be their own judge. The same goes for practically all of the things you stated.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Well sure, when it's looked at from a secular point of view, I would have to agree. However, if we come to a conclusion that God exists then it's simply just following His will. As Muslims, we do not practice blind faith. The Quran is filled with "How could a man in the 7th century have known that?" 's. We might say, well he guessed (Big Bang Theory, for example) and that's a valid accusation. One guess, two guesses, OK. What about dozens of scientific "guesses?"

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

I am somewhat familiar with the scientific guesses you talk about, and Im really not that impressed. If your impressed with that, you might as well be impressed with nostradamus also. They dont deliberately say this is how the big bang happened or this is how that happened. Its simply some kind of a vague sort of saying that can be related to the science, but not too directly.

Ill have to admit, I have no idea whatsoever what the mathematical miracle of the quran is.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Type "Occurence of some words in the Quran" in your search bar. What you will find is not the mathematical miracle that I am have mentioned, but some occurences that should at least spark interest in the objective observer. For example, sea is mentioned 13 times in the Quran and land is mentioned 32 times in the Quran. 13/45 = 28.88889% and 32/45 =  71.11111%. Isn't that interesting? Is this just a coincidence? Like I said before one or two guesses, ok. But not dozens.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

Where did you get the number 45?

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Well, if we want to determine the percent of something then we divide that something by the total in which it resides. 13+32 = 45. Therefore the percentage of that which is sea is 28.9% and that which is land is 71.1%. Now, the probaility of that occuring is atronomically low.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

I was hoping you didnt get 45 that way, but I guess you really are that stupid. 13+32=45, so of course the sum of the two quotients would equal one. If I have 5 blue buttons on my jacket, and 3 red ones, I can say that .625 + .375 = 1. A mathematical miracle on my jacket? No, rather the result of a severe misunderstanding of simple mathematics.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

Well, I guess I should throw away my engineering degree and enroll in geography. Not becuase the percentages add up to 1, but because I stated that 71.1% of the earth is land, I meant the reverse. Do a search on how much of the earth is land and how much is water. To think that I was trying to explain that the sums of percentages add up to 1 is quite entertaining.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

I thought about if you meant that, but you said land is mentioned 32 times, but now since you say you meant the opposite, so I suppose that is rather interesting. Still, I say coincidence. Besides, The percentage of water is 70.8%, not 71.1%. If they had deliberately said, the earth is made up of 71% water, then it would actually be interesting, but because people have to read between lines that are barely there, this really doesnt carry that much weight.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

I would argue that 70.8% is incorrect. We have to understand that 70.8% is calculated using the best technology available. It is a very good estimate, but it is definitely not exact. Moreover, the Quran is not filled with vague statements that can be extrapolated to mean or prove a number of things. It is exact in its claims. Another coincidental exam, the Quran states the man is created from a "single" drop of sperm.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

...Semen was obviously visible in the 7th century but not sperm. We know today that as soon as a "single" sperm penetrates the female egg no other sperms are allowed in. Why does the Quran say a single sperm? Had it said many sperm, you would say "Aha, you see, it says many sperm....and we know today that..."

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

They would say that man is created from a drop of sperm because only one person comes out at a time. To say that it is a single drop is the logical answer.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

I want to read the quran. Im sure its available to buy online but can I just get it at any mosque or something?

[TheEpicion]

@dudesonman4200

you can read it online, but for a physical copy, you can easily get one on different book shops or even amazon.

[MrChrisHermes]

@dudesonman4200 Forget the book-look at how it impacts reality. It is like reading the CATCHER IN THE RYE to get an understanding of CHAPMAN-insane. BOOKS are open to various readings-look at the lives and the impact, not the cheap empty platitudes.

[KLSeba]

@henhelm

That's just too funny. Quran also says Qur'an 86:5-7 So let man consider of what he is created: He is created of water pouring forth, Coming from between the back and the ribs. That would be around kidney area. We well know that sperm comes from testicle.

Then he was a clot of blood, so He created (him) then made (him) perfect. Then He made of him two kinds, the male and the female. Qur'an 75:37-39

It also says that bones are formed before flesh Qur'an 23:14

Indeed, very accurate

[hashim2raza]

@KLSeba regrding Quran 86:5-7 neither sperm is mentioned, nor kidney, nor is it said where it is made. it talks of a fluid pouring forth, proceding from between the back and the ribs. proceding means to move on a path type vas deferens in google images. it will show the path of fluid flow. the sperm flows through this path it passes b/w the aforementioned places. but keep in mind the sperm isnt the only thing. it is feeded with other fluids also. thus the quran stating fluid, instead of sperm.

[KLSeba]

@hashim2raza

"feeded with other fluids also"

Not very familiar with basic anatomy, isn't ? It's ok Mhd. wasn't either, hence the obvious mistakes in koran.

Tubular glands are located between bladder and anus. The fluid they produced from the seminal vesicles is jelly-like (rich in sugars like fructose), which is used for fuel by the sperm cells. Then there is the prostate gland and few other variables, all very much so in the region of your balls.

Process happens far away from ribs...

[hashim2raza]

@KLSeba the quran isnt a book of medical sceince for it to state the whole process. it doesnt say where the sperm is made. it talks of only its flow. it points out, but lets the human mind to ponder on the information. there is nothing wrong with verse 75:37-39 and verse 23:12-14 is perfectly explainable if u consider the exact wordings. verse 23:14 says we created from that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh. it dsnt say we created bones and then covered then with flesh. hope i m clear

[KLSeba]

@hashim2raza

23:14 actually it dose الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا , is another great examples demonstrating Mhd's lack of education. Sorry to disappoint, but it takes 2 months before even ossification begins.

Seriously my friend, not asking you to renounce your faith, by all means, believe and be happy, but please get some proper books to at least know how we are made and where we come from. It's embarrassing, it's 2011, you should know such basic things.

[razaa09]

@KLSeba nah man maybe you and your ancestors are gorillas relatives I am not lol

[fume0ne]

@razaa09 you are quite correct sir!

in fact you, your parents and your children share a common ancestor with chimpanzees making you much more closely related to the chimp than the gorilla family

its nice to see a muslim standing up for basic factual knowledge! good for you sir.

i myself believe in the roman gods. mars and pluto are my favorites they are so cool

[razaa09]

@fume0ne ok let me make this argument very quick and simple.

Calculate the probability of there being a earth and from there calculate the probability of evolving into modern day humans

[russellrummage]

@razaa09 Probability is probability, so your point of it against evolution is bollocks. Doesn't matter if something has a probability to the scale of one out of a googolplex, if it happens, it happens. Besides, the main problem with the numbers/chance argument against the first cell is that (obviously) they are doing it for a cell. Stupid people seem to think that a single cell isn't evolved, it more likely came from former proteins. These proteins have been found in meteorites. So bollocks.

[KLSeba]

@KLSeba I said backbone and ribs, which would be kidney. And it says it in every koran, by any renown scholar. Sahih International Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs. Muhsin Khan Proceeding from between the back-bone and the ribs, Pickthall That issued from between the loins and ribs. Yusuf Ali Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs: Shakir Coming from between the back and the ribs. { يخرج من بين الصلب } للرجل { والترائب } للمرأة وهي عظام الصدر.

[Somai82]

@henhelm The quran also mentions that shooting stars are missiles that Allah throws at Jinns, Jews were turned to apes, Jonah was swallowed and lived inside the fish and Suleiman talked to ants and birds, even though we know ants have no vocal chords and communicate through chemicals. And it's supposed to be the perfect book on ANY subject..It's enough to make a cat laugh. I won't even get into the hadiths where Muhammed advises camel piss as a cure etc.

[henhelm]

@Somai82

If Muhammed (SAW) said it then it's true. Your comments are indicative that the divine is bounded by human understanding. If you think that this universe happened haphazardly then I would be glad to shcool you on probability theory.

[Somai82]

@henhelm No, you're clearly one the severely brainwashed who will never ever accept logic or reason, which is clear from your cop out with your retarded argument. I choose not to argue with you clowns because it's futile. Have fun being a member of the world's most repressive, violent and hated religion.

[henhelm]

@Somai82 I will.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

...What about the mathematical miracle of the Quran? How could have that been accomplished without the use of a super computer? 

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200

The main point that I want to get across is that just because a country is predominated by Muslim inhabitants it does not imply that the government is an Islamic government. Acutally, there are no real Islamic governments out there. An Islamic country is one that practices Shariah as the governing law with no modifications. To understand the Islamic ruling on a matter, you would have to search the Quran and Hadith. For example, is suicide bombing legal in Islam? No.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

That brings up a point that I want to make. There is a difference between the islam you read in the quran, and that certain people actually practice, and the islam actually being enacted throughout the world. The islam that is actually present within the ancient books is much more peaceful. If anyone wishes to practice it, Id support their right to, even though I dont agree with it. However, once the religion becomes violent, then its a different story.

[KLSeba]

@henhelm

I won't make fun of your look , color or place of birth. Because you had no say in that matter. But religion, just like taste in music or food, is a choice, and we can make fun and criticize people's choices.

The one thing islam should learn is that it's not an authority to everyone, and just because islam teaches not to draw Mhd, doesn't mean non-believers should be prohibited from doing so in public.

People who dont want their beliefs laughed at shouldnt have such funny beliefs.

[KLSeba]

@henhelm

"... inquiry don't exist in the Muslim world is unfouded. "

How is that an Islamic world has nothing to show for, for the past 600 years? In fact, every single thing you're using this very moment, has been invented outside of an islamic circles. Secondly, going back to violence. Please, I was brought in muslim family and live in I an islamic country. More than 60% of Quran is about non-Muslims. Gloating over Allah's hatred of them and his dark plans for their eternal torture.

[hashim2raza]

@KLSeba sorry for my interfernce. the word kafir means those that dont accept the way of allah. it can be muslims or non-muslims. the way of allah while most of u seem to think is praying, fasting etc. it is not just that. its the building of an islamic welfare state in which every individual has an equal oppurtunity to evolve in to his physical spiritual etc needs. now, the laws of allah are fixed. irrespective of who follows them gets the result. contd

[hashim2raza]

@KLSeba if muslims dont follow the ways then they are the kafirs. and they should mend there ways. so as u were saying quran GLOATS about the non muslims, that was a major mistake. it says whoso ever does not follow will face the consequence. like eating poison irrespective if u r a muslim or not, u will die. thats how the rules are fixed. now dont expect allah to interfere in sonamis earthquakes. etc. the way of allah does not change.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

The bombing of the embassies in denmark over a cartoon, the wish of not just some terrorist imbecile but the Iranian gov to assassinate Salman Rushdie because of "blasphemy" on account of a book he wrote critizicing Islam proves how pathetically immature the religion is. Mahmoud Ahmedinejad once bragged that his country is free of gays. This of course is because his gov murdered them all. Constant terrorist threats today in almost every civilized country in the world.

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200 This universe did not happen haphazardly. If you want to discuss probability theory, I suggest you bring your best argument forward.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

The question of precisely how the universe began is a scientific one. Therefore we must use science to answer it. Although, my assumption is that youve heard the science and then misunderstood it, which lead you to believe in its invalidity. Am I wrong in my assumption?

[henhelm]

@dudesonman4200 I agree that the question of how the universe began is a scientific one, or can be explained by science at least. In fact, the Quran agrees with the Big Bang Theory. It is stated in the Quran that the heavens (stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) and the Earth were one, and that they were split asunder. Now, are you stating that the Big Bang Theory has been abrogated by a newer one? Also, Islam has no problem believing that the universe is several billion years old.

[dudesonman4200]

@henhelm

The big bang theory is still standing today. What scientists need however is to expand on it by figuring out exactly how the first singularity which would become the universe came into existence. There are already several hypotheses, but none have really been proven. I suppose that in the case of science, at least according to you, Islam does not contradict.

[holypsychopath]

@henhelm ok than do it! oh wait you can't cause everything he said was fact

[KLSeba]

@henhelm

I would pay money to see that happen :)

[fume0ne]

@henhelm im sure anyone who believes in a magic man in the sky would be a worthy opponent of hitchens. have you considered putting yourself or one of your close personal friends who also believes in magic forward? i too would like to see a learned islamic "scholar" (:D) have a debate with the all powerful hitchens. if you look carefully in the 2nd line i have hidden a illustration of muhummed the schizophrenic - see if you can spot it!

lol magic :D

[MaskedMarvyl]

Muhammed routinely took women survivors of his massacres as slaves, and encouraged his men (and himelf) to rape them before selling them on the open market. This is in their own official history of Muhummad. He created a religion out of his own head that made HIM the "Prophet of God", and that declared those that don't believe fit for death, he murdered hundreds of helpless people with his own hands, and married a six year old girl he had sex with when she was nine. THIS is "The Prophet"??

[TheKap1an]

@MaskedMarvyl

'So slavery by definition is injustice and abuse of life. '

No, thats your own definition, all people in the Prophets life literally wanted to be his helper/servant/slave, and did and were devoted by their lives to him, and no one complained about him during or after his life, and he used to do a lot of the housework himself even though he was the absolute ruler, he could have lived a life like the greatest emperors or kings or even better, but he never.

[MaskedMarvyl]

@TheKap1an, that's my OWN definition??

Hmm, you try being a slave, and see what your definition is.

You try being a female slave, being raped at your owner's whim, and see what your definition is.

You're either in deep, deep denial or are actually ok with slavery.

Your phrase "helper/servant/slave" , lumping the three together into one willing categorgy, is both disturbing and dishonest. You cannot lump "slave" with the others. Slaves cannot "willing". They are enslaved.

[MaskedMarvyl]

If everyone in Muhammad's life Wanted to help him, then why keep slaves at all? He could have freed them all, and they would have wanted to stay and help him anyway, since he was so wonderful.

Your logic is distorted and scary.

The "willing slave" is one of the great lies of all time. You go talk to a former slave, or a present slave, since Islam is the only religion that still practices it, and ask them how they feel about it.

Before you say that isn't true, Google it; it's documented.

[TheKap1an]

@MaskedMarvyl

And the Prophet(saw) encouraged people to buy slaves and set them free and he did this aswell, but a lot of people wanted to serve him anyway. Bilal, who was a black slave, the lowest of the low in the eyes of Meccans, was brought by Abu Bakr and he is one of the greatest Muslims in history. Its sad that people have this image of the Prophet Muhammad and have been fed this. Watch /watch?v=DeiH5une4SI

or watch the full lecture, this is the truth, not what you have been fed.

[MaskedMarvyl]

@TheKap1an, it's hard to believe that Muhammed, encouraged people to buy slaves just to set them free. That's a lot of money to expect his followers to have.

Why didn't he just declare war on slaveholders, and ban slavery in the Quran? It would have taken one passage.

Here's an even more relevant question. If he was so big on setting slaves free, why did he take women captive, encourage his men to rape them, and then SELL THEM on the open market? It's all documented in Islam.

Well?

[TheKap1an]

@MaskedMarvyl

Its clear you dont know the definition of 'slave' in Islam. The principles are set out in the Quran. You must act to a slave rightously and just as you would want someone to treat you. If a slave wants to set free then you have to let that slave FREE. 'slaves' in Islam arent the same 'slaves' that is in the Western history of abuse and torture. And no in Islam your not allowed to rape slaves lol where do you get that from.

[MaskedMarvyl]

@TheKap1an, where did I get that from? Your own history, recorded by Islam's hown historians, who document it as if nothing is wrong with it.

Please look up your own history. I"m not interested in hearing you deny it,

when it's there and I've read it. Oh right, I researched it online, so it can't be true...

Even though it's translated from Islamic sources.

[avatarmn]

For fuck's sake, why do questions/answers keep repeating in later parts?

[trident3b]

ahhh these recordings are a mess... so many repeats what a pity.

[evilresidence4]

who the hell fucked up the order anyway?

[ahmology]

who is mr rushidy he is talking about??

[kash959]

@ahmology Rushdie is the person who wrote a book "The Satanic Verses" which was a fiction novel, but based on a historical fact which exposes muhammad and proves beyond a doubt that he lied to get power, sex and money...

That's why Iran and most of the muslim world ordered him killed!

pisLame is a false religion

[baigandine]

2 Muslims disliked this video.

[natmanprime]

what's wrong with this woman?

She seems drugged out like some ex hippy

disurbing

[TheAtheistworld]

religion is apocalyptic bull shit. fuckin perverted reality

[rikkiwonka75]

Long live Hitchens!

[InSearchOfStorms]

islam is crap, so is christianity and judism

[49fiori]

pity god was a monglot, since this was his final word, i still don't get it, why Arabic?

[animea90]

Jesus says the same thing about being the last messenger. He absolutely claims that he is the last prophet/son of God. No revelation can come about after the Bible.

[tudman19]

animea, where do you get your information? Why do you throw in christianity when the issue is about islam. Lets talk about islam and islam only. You can talk about jesus, but go do it on a christian broadcast. FYI Jesus was a Jew and died as one. Where did he claim that he was the last prophet ( I know he claimed he was the son) but the last prophet, where is this claim? as well, the no revelation after the bible? (the bible didn't exist when Jesus lived)... He never created it.

[leonheartmm]

there are no islamic "scholars" theres only islamic demagogues who THINK they are knowledgeable on the greater politics/culture and philosophies of the non islamic world, but their knowledge comprises almost entirely of urban myths and the kind of new age legends of alien societies that the most ignorant and isolated communities use for bigotry. often reminds me of tom cruise/hubbard and other egotists who think they are the AUTHORITIES on the universe when actually its all disproven urban myth

[steve4770]

no islamic scholar would have the balls to debate with hitchens..

[CircleBastiat]

@steve4770

Islamic scholar... oxymoron?

[nemirn]

@steve4770

No Islamic scholar has the brains to think critically.

[IslamEatsBabies]

I still haven't seen Hitchens debate a so called Muslim scholar.

Shame.

[brightsuperstition]

Well for one, I don't think any of them have challenged Hitchens (or any other atheist for that matter).

Secondly, debating a Muslim would in public would be a very dangerous prospect. What if the Muslim "loses" and the fact that Hitchens defeated a Muslim in public would create anger among fundamentalists (which would lead to shady killings, burnings, etc).

[beebobox]

if hitch heard you use that as a reason not to debate a muslim, he'd scowl at you angrily :)

[PKwinsomee]

i concur, but i think he would probably agree with bright's view of the outcome :(

[Gwisss]

Christians seem to, try as they might, obey the rules of argument. They attempt to put their views into a logical framework. Muslims in most of the cases I've seen, overtly deny logic and the rules of argument on points that counter their beliefs. It is a whole lot of denial and logical fallacies. I think, a debate against a Muslim is only possible if the Muslim is in some way western or secular. Otherwise, they will always think they are on a playing field where they are winning.

[green2489]

I live in Kuwait-muslims believe that EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS is the 'will of allah' (they believe that because god created everything-past, present and future-everything that happens is because of his will). I once asked a Bangladeshi muslim; 'even when a child is abused?' and he said 'god created that man, so everything that man does is gods will'. Sick thinking, eh?

[Gwisss]

Sounds like the mind of a masochist.

[ciaochowbella]

Islam demonstrates the most profound way people can reject personal responsibility. If everything is the "will of Allah" then nothing they do is wrong nor their own responsibility. However, they contradict this notion with the rules of conduct set forth in the Quran.

Ergo, if everything that happens is the "will of Allah", why are holy books needed?

I love the obvious, and fully ignored, contradiction of religion.

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@green2489

dude i asked a muslim the other day if he thought slavery was morally acceptable as it is sanctioned by god in the old/new testament and in the quran...

he said yes...

[baigandine]

@DcEatsItsYoung Is it really that different than extreme laissez faire?

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

why dont u read the Quran for yourself and find out?

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap

I have. In all three books slavery is acceptable

I asked my muslim friend and he said that because "god" finds it acceptable, then he does as well

It was obvious that people sacrifice their own moral autonomy and allow bronze age nonsense to do their thinking for them. But Most people think for themselves and dont find slavery acceptable. But it isnt because the "holy" books changed....its because humans changed...and no longer accept what our own judgement deems as immoral.

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

Yes but do you know on what condition the Quran deems slavery acceptable and how ur meant to treat them? When we hear the word 'slave' it automatically sounds like a cruel thing, but infact the Quran came along and wiped out all the cruel acts being done to slaves. You honestly dont know what ur talking about .

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

That is such bullshit. YES, ownership of an individual in ANY sense is a cruel thing. Jesus also improved conditions on slaves, he said you could beat them but not damage their eyes. Is that MORAL?

Would we accept any kind of slavery as described in the Quran today? NO! You would think the "word of god" would stand the test of time.

On another note, I also think its immoral to tax non-muslims as the Quran calls for. Seems to be another form of subjugation.

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

YES we would accept the kind of slavery described in the Quran today. Muslims are ordered to look after slaves with RIGHTOUESNESS and if the slave does not want to be a slave THEN THAT SLAVE IS SET FREE, thats what the Quran says, whats hard about that?

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

NO we wouldnt accept that kind of slavery...or any other kind for that matter. Because moral people no longer accept the very idea of slavery. Face it, the quran is a book filled with outdated morality, written by desert dwellers that didnt know a damn thing about the world they lived in.

Doesnt the quran also say that non-muslims must be taxed. Is that not also another form of subjugation.

Just because the quran says something doesnt make it inherently moral or ethical

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

Yes slavery is acceptable if your going to treat your slave with righteousness. And as Ive pointed out, the Quran says if the slave wants to be free then let that slave be free, so what have u got against this?

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

"Yes slavery is acceptable if..."

That is all I needed to read. Youve just proved my point that people can disregard basic modern human morality in favor of outdated religious nonsense.

I dont care if youve done good in your life...after reading that I do not think that you are a moral person. Not only because you believe that...but also because you are not accepting responsibility to make moral judgements for yourself.

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

I need to make sure u understand this point. Do u undersand that the Quran states that if the slave wants to not be a slave then that slave can leave? Just answer that please.

And also did u undersand the tax thing?

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

If this were a moral book, slavery would have been abolished. End of story.

You can sit there and play all the games you want trying to defend an immoral practice. At the end of the day, the quran permits ownership of another, regardless of the rules, which in a very sick way seem please you.

And that is not morally acceptable, nor should it be viewed as anything resembling truth.

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

As for the tax thing , ur probbly talkin about verse 9:29

That was revealed during the time when the Muslims had defeated the pagans in the conguering of Mecca and were in the process of establishing the Islamic law. Now one of the 5 pillars of Islam is zakat (the Muslim tax), Muslims have to pay this , this tax goes to the poor, now is it fair for non Muslims to not pay tax?This tax is given to the poor Muslims AND NON Muslims. I dont understand what uve got against this.

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

Even if that were true, which you know very well it isnt, as this tax was part of a penance for non-belief.....NO it would not be "fair" or just to have to pay a tax because of a religious claim which cant even be proven to be true anyway.



[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

The Muslims had to pay it, so the non Muslims had to pay it aswell if they chose to live under Islamic law. Zakat goes to the poor and yes it is true. As for the slavery issue, tell me this (cos I know, just making sure u know) do u know the conditions that the Quran puts on slavery?

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

If they "choose"???? gimme a break...you are so full of shit. people didnt "choose" to be conquered, killed and then subjugated in the form of taxation.

You keep talking about conditions as if the very concept of slavery should ever be permissible. It shouldnt. What you are failing to understand is that there is NO condition that could ever make slavery acceptable.

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

Please do some research about the pagans and Muslims cos I can tell u honestly dont know anything about it.

As for slavery I dont think u understand the full definition of it.

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap

The argument that Islam improved pagan beliefs holds no weight with me. Islam may have been an improvement on pagan beliefs, but since Islam came about humans have improved on Islamic beliefs. But we are told, no, we are not allowed to improve on the final word of god. gimme a break. just as islam disregarded immoral pagan beliefs, humans should disregard immorality in islam

The full definition of slavery? Are you kidding? Fine, why dont you give me your definition of slavery

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

Ok tell me ways in which humans have improved on Islamic beliefs, modern science is just confirming the Quran.

And I just want u to explain to me the conditions that the Quran puts on a slave, be it the treatment or the conditions.

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

the quran claims the earth is flat....so please do not try to bullshit me about the quran confirming modern science. what does the quran say about DNA...or string theory?  gimme a break.

I dont care if cruelty was forbidden or if slaves couldnt hold office etc...The only condition i am interested is that a slave is inferior to a free person. That is it. Whatever follows from that simply lies in the immoral infrastructure of slavery.

What is ur definition of slavery?

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

no the Quran doesnt say the earth is flat. Example of what modern science has confirmed thats in the Quran: The mountains embedded in the earth like pegs so that the earth shakes less in an earthquake, the 2 seas not mixing, ALL LIFE is created in pairs and much more, are saying that a man in the desert who couldnt read or write , hadnt seen a sea in his life made these statements so clearly and have gone undisputed??

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

The quran says the earth is spread out like a carpet. How could a flat carpet be confused with a spherical object like the earth?

either it makes incorrect scientific claims or it is simply poetic rhetoric.

how could i expect this from an illiterate man? this type of nonsense, most of which plagerized from the old/new testament, is exactly what i would expect from hysterical desert people.

what is your definition of slavery?

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

A carpet can be spread over a sphererical object as well, use ur common sense, it doesnt say anything to do with flatness, dont make it out to be something that it isnt. And no the Quran isnt plagerized from the Bible, the Prophet Muhhamad(saw) only knew Arabic, the earliest translation of the Bible was done several hundred years AFTER his death, and lets say that he did copy it for arguments sake, if anything he CORRECTED all the wrong claims in the Bible.

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

Corrected all the wrong claims? You mean the claims he would have never known about had the bible not made them to begin with. There was ample knowledge of Judaism and Christianity in pre-islamic world. Most of the earliest islamic translators/people living there at that time were Jews and Christians...

Its always funny to me when people tell half-truths defending a religion they claim is the whole truth

The reality is, none of what you believe can be proven to be true.

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

Im not saying he corrected anything, I just said that for arguments sake because thats what you think, Im saying, pretend he did copy it (looking from ur point of view), how could he have known whats correct and whats wrong? And how did he copy from the Bible when he didnt even have a translation of it? But thats a whooole different topic.

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

Because i dont believe any of that shit. I dont believe that gabriel talked to him. I dont believe any of it.

You claim he didnt have a copy and couldnt have known because that fits with your and Islams narrative that he was an illiterate and that the whole thing was miraculous. I dont believe that either...

The mormons make similar claims about John Smith...and they are just as laughable...

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

And slavery in the Quran is made clear, a slave does not have to be a slave, if the slave wants to be released then he can, and you HAVE to act righteous to ur slave otherwise ur disobeying the word of God, but like I said, the slave can be set free at his own will.

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

What is your definition of slavery?

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

I do know what the quran says about slavery. I know muhammed and aisha are said to have freed thousands of slaves. Am i supposed to thank them for that?

None of this makes the institution of slavery moral. Now slavery may "mean different things to different people"....

But if in that definition it means ownership of another, and inferiority of another as it does in Islam...then it is immoral.

Im sorry if I am more ethical than your prophet...

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

can u explain why modern science does not dispute the Quran. And btw you definitely dont know how the Prophet(saw) treated a slave and Im not going to explain here, go look urself in UN-biased sources. And yes of course he didnt have a copy of the Bible, its a historical fact that an Arabic Bible was made hundreds of years after he died, and how could he have come and corrected everything in the Bible??

[DcEatsItsYoung]

First, just because he rebranded bullshit or as you call it "corrected", doesnt mean its not still bullshit

Second, how was it possible that there were Arab Jews and Christians if there was no bible they could draw from? Clearly, they had full knowledge of Judaism/Christianity

You need to for one second wrap your head around the idea that this wasnt miraculous....that he could read...and that men constructed these fables. then you wouldnt have to waste time trying to prove the impossible

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

modern science does dispute the quran. the sun doesnt move and the earth isnt shaped like a carpet or an egg. and dont pretend like there arent other scientific errors cuz i can provide those as well.

either these are inacurate scientific claims or they are poetic rhetoric. either way they are useless. science is observation and testing. and clearly there is no real science in that sense in the quran. there are only absolute claims. science is not absolute, it can change

[MaskedMarvyl]

@TheKap1an , do you realize the insanity of your question?

"You don't know how the Prophet treated a slave"?

If he is the Prophet, WHY is he keeping slaves??

Slaves don't have free choice to leave and have their own life. That is why they are called "slaves".

So slavery by definition is injustice and abuse of life. Implying that they were "treated well" makes it not bad, not just a bad defense, it's immoral.

Slavery is indefensible, and don't you dare try to defend it as "tradition".

[TheKap1an]

@MaskedMarvyl

''If he is the Prophet, WHY is he keeping slaves??''

Back then woman captured in war were kept as slaves and no it wasnt an injustice slaves were treated rightouesly and no harm could be done to them.

''Slaves don't have free choice to leave and have their own life. That is why they are called "slaves".''

eer no, maybe in the english language thats the definition of slave, in Islam if the slave is persistent on leaving then the slave can leave.

[MaskedMarvyl]

@TheKap1an , Thank you for revealing the true values of many muslims.

"no it wasn''t an injustice". Once again, you're not the slave.

"slaves were treated rightously and no harm could be done to them"??

That is a very sick statement; sorry, but it is.

Female (and male) slaves were routinely raped.

Islamic history ITSELF records Muhammmed as encouraging his men to rape their captured female hostages before selling them like they were cattle.

No harm?

Oh my god.

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

"ALL LIFE is created in pairs"

That is incorrect. Some species re-produce a-sexually.

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

Did I talk about reproducing? God says that he created all life in pairs, be it plants, bacteria, any life, it is in pairs, I cant debate that with you because if you dont know that then I cant say much.

And as for u saying the Quran says the earth is flat Im afraid ur COMPLETELY wrong. It says the earth is spread out like a carpet for us, this does not mean its flat, infact in another verse it says the earth is the shape of an egg (more specifaclly an ostrich egg)

[DcEatsItsYoung]

@TheKap1an

An a-sexual species wouldnt need to be created in pairs. that is the point.

the carpet and the egg are simply contradictions...common in the quran. furthermore, the earth is not egg shaped, its isnt even ostrich egg shaped.

the quran also claims the sun has an orbit...care to address that?

but before you say anything else about the sun or whatever other nonsense you have, i want your definition of slavery. i shouldnt have had to ask for it so many times.

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

The definition of slavery can be diffrent to differnt people. Some will see their slave as someone that they can beat and do anything that they will. Some can see a slave as a friend and helper. But its a shame u dont know what the Quran says about slavery.

As for the carpet thing. it doesnt say 'We laid out the earth FLAT like a carpet'' does it? You can lay a carpet around a speherical object. And the earth is not perfectly round if u didnt know, its LIKE an egg. (next post)

[TheKap1an]

@DcEatsItsYoung

and about the life created in pairs, its not hard to understand, everything in life we know and have discovered are in pairs, simple as, no need to elaborate,

And can u please provide some evidence of the sun theory, I probably know what verse ur talkin about, but write the verse number so I can be definite

[LetReasonPrevail1]

Yes, that is truly sick thinking indeed.

I believe it stems from the passivity that religious belief "inbreeds" into its followers.

If you truly believe that everything you have was given to you including morality & your life's purpose, then I assert that you are allowing yourself to be intellectually & emotionally nudered. As such, you stop taking responsibility for ANYTHING as it is all out of your hands. You just accept all the crap in life as god's will...total bullshit if you ask me.

[TheMedievalMan]

@green2489 So you are saying that they believe that there is no true free will?  That everything is pre-destined?

[ThulinMartin]

@green2489 That is the what u should believe if u think that God is almighty....

Its illogic to say that God is almighty and things happen that isnt his will.... Its impossible even...

[LazyIrish829]

Hitchens vs. Tariq Aziz.

Admittedly, he's an islamic moderate but I couldn't see a militant muslim even entering into an open discussion with anyone, let alone Christopher Hitchens.

Also, a very good exchange can be found under the search title "Faith Schools And Children's Rights - Richard Dawkins @ The Big Debate"

It is a must see.

[green2489]

I'd love to see that one - wow!!!