SeaBird clearly has a devasting end kick, somewhat similar to Australian 1980s champion Kingston Town. In the hypothetical SeaBird v. Secretariat clash, if they were head to head with 100 yards to go, I imagine the acceleration of the lighter horse SB may be too extreme for SEC to reel in in time. However the usual race strategy SEC adopted was to decide his races several hundred yards from the finish. If SEC did that, I don't think SB would have the top line speed to pull him back.
Time is important, but only when taken into account along with the weight carried, the course run over, the trajectory of the horse's trip, and the condition of the ground.
It's important to remember that all horses are fallible. Even the truly stellar ones. Mill Reef lost at Newmarket, The Brigadier lost at York. Sea Bird himself lost in the Grand Criterium. Secretariat lost several races. Nijinsky lost at Longchamp....they are all fallible. What marks Sea Bird is the bizarre ease with which he cantered along.
@tigerarmyrule so true there animals at the end of the day and we all have bad days. like u wot amazes me is the ease at which he canters along and goes clear without even being asked or giving 100%.
Please help.The Derby is a flat race and time is key.Why was this one of the greatest Derby wins when his time is a good +10secs off the current record????????????????Je comprends pas.Io no comprendo.Ich verstehe nicht.Bit of a hulllaballo about nothing if you ask me.Top 20 horse at best.
@TicinoParadise Good point. rcshumann is correct in point up SBs pedigree but the hints of nationalism in his comments fail to take the point that ultimately if you trace those bloodlines far enough you'll find non American horses.
Sea Bird owes his superior talent to his grandsire, Native Dancer (the Gray Ghost), one of the best to come out of the US. This horse won 21 of his 22 starts, and is among the few to win the Preakness, Belmont and Travers Stakes. His only loss came at the Derby when he was roughed up early in the race, and lost by the narrowest of margins. No Native Dancer - No Sea Bird.
@rcschumann - Um you can ACTUALLY Thank the GREAT Nearco who was 14 for 14, and has his bloodline in some of the VERY BEST horses of the 20th Century. Nearctic, Northern Dancer, Nijinsky2, Secretariat, Ruffian, Makybe Diva, Nasrullah, Invasor, Seattle slew, Dante,Nimbusn etc...."According to France Galop, from 1985 through to 2010 every Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner can trace a blood-line back to Nearco, his son Nasrullah, and his grandson Northern Dancer". Enough Said :)
@TicinoParadise I don't doubt the great Nearco's tremendous influence on many champion racehorses, but I was specifically referring to Sea Bird's pedigree. This horse was the powerhouse he was because of his grandsire, the mighty Native Dancer (No.7 in the US top 100 and one of the best sires of all time). I know that Nearco was the great grandsire of both Secretariat and Nijinsky, and is present in the pedigrees of other champions on both continents - but he's not in Sea Bird's bloodline.
Please read the book 'A Century of Champions' by Tony Morris and John Randall. They give an excellent analysis of the world's greatest race horses and give them a rating using the criteria created by Timeform. You will not agree with all their rankings, but they have made the best attempt so far.
i am bored with yanks cracking on about secretariat on here!!! yes he was a good horse, but the fact is yank horses run the same way round flat tracks and gallop, to win around europe horses come across undulating tracks ( and even run clock-wise, longchamp) like epsom and i tell you now secretariat would not win an english derby due to this. the adaptability of european champions like sea bird, nijinsky, dancing brave and shergar and sts who all had a turn of foot american horse dont have!!!
@johngilly28 Check out Secretariat's Preakness Stakes, when he makes a devastating last-to-first move round the treacherous first turn at Pimlico (dubbed the "suicide move" by Beyer) and you will see a "turn of foot" of epic proportions. His two G1 wins on turf and the fact that he once trained well going right-handed on a track, leads me to believe that he would have won the Arc. His jockey said he was even better on grass, after winning a major 1 1/2 mile turf race. Sec would have loved Epsom!
@johngilly28 A friend of mine has UK Racing on satellite and I've watched many a race there, including the recent Derby and Oaks (Dettori bombed in that one). I'm sure Sec would have loved it as he was a quick learner, and the turf was a natural surface for him. I once read an analysis of his style and how well the grass catered to it - this surface acts like a springboard for his giant, piston-like stride. Why wouldn't he love Epsom? At his best no horse beats him anywhere, on any surface.
I prefer my horse racing champions to not be drugged up to the eyeballs, so I'm not listening to arguments that America's greatest would beat Europe's greatest, simply because they don't compete on a level playing field. As for Sea Bird being some sort of wonder horse, I have difficulty with that too. I keep hearing what an impressive Derby winner he was, but Shergar, and Troy, were more impressive in my view. Hawk wing is a classic example of people getting carried away by one performance.
Sea Bird, Secretariat, Dancing Brave, Nijinsky, Man O War, you name who you like, put them in a mile race against Brigadier Gerard and he'd destroy the lot of them.
Seabird and Secretariat both great great horses.But i wouldnt be able to split them had they ever raced against each other.To say one is better than the other is futile.
One thing i would say had they raced over 12f on turf and seabird was within 2-3 lengths with 2 furlongs to goi believe he would have accelerated past him...but it would have been big if just to be within 2 -3 lengths of Big Red.So lets just appreciate 2 legendary horses,rather than bickering and squabbling.
rschumann - You post ur bile under the premise that racing fans this side of the pond had never heard of Secretariat or his great achievements. I remember Big Red's triple crown very well. He was a great horse, of that there is little doubt. It is foolish to compare a dirt US champ with a European champ such as Sea Bird. If you are looking for versatility and greatness, look no further than Nijinsky, who won the British Triple Crown at distances of 8 furlongs, 12 furlongs to 14 furlongs.
One of the most naturally talented racehorses to ever grace the track. His running action is perfection. Would of been clash of two racing gods if he and secretariat were racing at the same time on the same continent. But to be honest id put pharlap up their with both seabird and secretariat in terms of talent.
Well,this is all very civilized but the greatest racehorse EVER was Secretariat.You can have your Sea Bird as the greatest turf champion if you like but NO HORSE could have beat Big Red at Belmont 73.His acceleration on the 1st turn at the Preakness is the greatest move by a horse in history.SEC's heart was an estimated 22 lbs!Beat that!
@rananim3 Secretariat's heart size, though unusual, was not unique. His great rival, Sham, also had an enlarged heart, as did Australian champion, Phar Lap, and Arkle - the great jump horse of all. Secretariat was defeated on five occasions - once by four lengths, and when he had every chance of winning.
@ThefightingCelt He was beaten because he was handled by humans.I love all horses and Sea Bird was for sure top FIVE of all time.But nothing beats Secretariat,nothing.Timeform are wrong.
@rananim3 Secretariat - The most overrated horse in the history of the world. Just an horse the yanks like to glorify to make themselfs feel better when they realise the greatest thoroughbred champions have all come from Europe
@ASupremeOwl Sea Bird - The most overrated horse in the history of the world. Just any horse the Euros like to glorify to make themselves feel better when they realise the greatest thoroughbred champions have all come from the US. And that's a fact, English prick! Some of the best horses raced in the UK were American bred, like Giant's Causeway, Henrythenavigator, and Sakhee. Secretariat is superior to all. He won on dirt AND grass, and would bury Sea Bird on any surface, over any distance.
@ASupremeOwl Did Sea Bird ever win a race by going each 1/4 mile faster than the previous one, from start to finish? That's was Sec did at Derby and Belmont. The way Secretariat won Belmont has nothing to do with surfaces and times, but with unique and umatched ability on the track - he was still accelerating when he hit the wire at Belmont, at the end of a 1 1/2 mile race in very hot conditions. Did Sea Bird ever make such a "suicidal move" (Andy Beyer) as Secretariat did at Preakness cont
@ASupremeOwl when he went from last to first early in the race, passing horses like they were standing still? Was Sea Bird as versatile as Secretariat on the track? The latter won from the inside, giving up huge ground on the outside, on the lead, from far back, in between horses. No horse has ever won in so many different ways. He proved his three losses at 3 were flukes by killing the field and setting records after each loss. Think before you blast a racing legend, you stupid monkey.
@rcschumann You my friend are the most boring individual I ever come across on Youtube. The best throughbreds have come from the US and then you go and name HenrytheNavigator and Giants Causeway as examples who rank where with Timeform? If you go through thoroughbred history horses from the UK and France are far far more talented and precocious. The most prestigious races in the world are here in Europe, Theres one race in the US that I could remotely care about and thats the Breeders Classic..
@ASupremeOwl Secretariat had English and French blood in him through Princequillo, and I have no doubt that had he been trained in the UK like Nijinsky, he would have dominated even more on the turf. Sea Bird had American blood in him through Native Dancer (the Gray Ghost) and I'm positive he would have killed in the US if he was trained on the dirt. So lets just celebrate these magnificent thoroughbreds.
@ASupremeOwl Secretariat would have destroyed over 1m 10f, and probably over 1m 4f too. Sea Bird never won races the way Secretariat did, in so many different ways and on two surfaces. But like the guy below said: they were both great. By the way, where was Dancing Brave bred? America. Where was Nijinsky bred? Canada. Nijinsky's sire, Northern Dancer, won the biggest races on dirt in the US, and his son did the same on turf in the UK. It's safe to say the UK, US and Canada have bred the finest.
Aside from riding the great Sea Bird II Australian jockey Pat Glennon also rode one of the greatest Melbourne Cup winners in history for the Cummings - Comic Court in the 1950 Melboune Cup in record time (first time under 3:20 for the race) carrying 59.5Kg. He certainly got to see the best of the best.
The speed he gets past the leaders in the Derby is just ridiculous. In terms of the post-war gallopers (pre-WII are difficult to get a measure on) he has to rate as the best ever. Given the quality of horses he beat in the Arc, and the manner in which he won the Derby.... I guess his rating at 145, the highest ever speaks for itself.
@bgardiner2000 As Sea Bird's Derby time was a colossal 7 seconds slower than Workforce's time last year, he is hardly in the reckoning for all-time best discussions.
@Nautilus1972 Time is only important if you're in jail. The rest of that super field all ran 7 seconds slower don't forget... and he still gapped them like claimers. Time is only a superficial measure of greatness. Have a look for a horse called Mandurah. You may have never heard of him, as he was only a claimer last season. In June last year he ran a world record for 1 mile on any surace (1:31.25) at Monmouth. Surely that would make him the greatest miler that ever lived?? Hardly.
@Nautilus1972 So what? Time means very little in European racing. Were the ground conditions the same? Were there pacemakers? Workforce won well but Seabird was being eased from a furlong out as Pat Glennon was under orders not to have him galloping over the road which crossed the track not far after the winning line. Seabird's Arc had the best horses from UK, Ireland, France, USA and even USSR yet he trounced them.
It was all too easy for him. It is actually true that it was just too easy. He never even looked like coming off the bit in either the Derby or against a world class Arc field. It's hard to compare him because he is literally incomparable. Even true greats like Mill Reef or Dancing Brave had to try. Nijinsky, pre ringworm, is in my opinion the nearest thing.
@SECRETARIATANDALUZ Shove Secretariat where the sun doesnt shine. Not in the calibre of some of Europes past champions, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave just to name a few!
In order to be truly compared Sea Bird II and Dancing Brave would have to be compared in terms of their opponents : how good was 1968 vs. 1986 ? Was 1968 a very good year ? Perhaps it was. Was 1986 a good year ? Perhaps it was !
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Stick up for the brilliant Sea Bird II, Mr. PapaBill, why don't you ? I agree and disagree with you - Dancing Brave was better. You know my argument already. Dancing Brave's finishing speed was better than Sea Bird II's. DB's turn of foot was better ..
Pour moi Sea Bird restera à jamais le "Cheval du Siècle". Ce Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe 1965 a été d'un niveau le plus relevé qu'on ait connu avant et après celui-ci. Les principaux chevaux qu'il battait ce jour-là étaient exceptionnels. Reliance, le second aurait fait un vainqueur exceptionnel s'il n'avait pas eu le malheur de "tomber" sur Sea Bird. Diatome était lui-même détaché du 4ème et derrière il y avait encore Tom Rolfe, Meadow Court, Anilin et Blabla. Excusez du peu...
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
I agree, sea bird was top class, but 145 is a bit high when he was so lightly raced, and Shergar was a better derby winner, Ribot won the arc by more and DB had better turn of foot.
It's hard to compare horses that did not face each other or ran in diferent eras, because everybody owns their truth but i consider Ribot's record as one of the most outstanding in the world's horse racing history!!! After all he was a perfect horse in every field, as a stallion, horse racer ect ,ect... Thanks for at least understanding my point of view my friend
It's hard to compare, you must consider the wins but also the "blood". RIBOT was the best. Think about this: his owner and breeder, Incisa, didn't agreed! He thought that NEARCO was better than him! Nearco, perfect thoroughbred, unbeated champion, 14/14, had only one fault: he didn't measure in competitions out of Italy. Like Ribot...
I did say 3 year olds and Golden Fleece's credentials on that level are impeccable, even if injury did prevent him from running again after his 1982 Epsom victory. The manner of his Derby win was sensational (look at the Youtube clip) as were his victories in the three other races in his career. He finished even faster than his sire, Nijinsky, and the fact that he also descended, on his dam's side, from Vaguely Noble suggests he might well have gone on to win the Arc.
The unbeatable Ribot would probably have had the edge on them both, though I would also include Golden Fleece and Lammtarra in any list of the greatest 3year olds ever over a mile and a half.
how can you say that big red never raced in europe i think he would have been a good horse over here but he would not have had it his own way against the likes of DB,S,N,BG,and of course the little fella.
Beautiful race. Excellent burst of speed and finishing "pulled-up". Can anyone answer as to the varying grade of this course.
bbmtge 2 months ago
You can see why after all these years he is rated #1. He really accelerated away, making a strong field of horses look ordinary.
schardy80 4 months ago
SeaBird clearly has a devasting end kick, somewhat similar to Australian 1980s champion Kingston Town. In the hypothetical SeaBird v. Secretariat clash, if they were head to head with 100 yards to go, I imagine the acceleration of the lighter horse SB may be too extreme for SEC to reel in in time. However the usual race strategy SEC adopted was to decide his races several hundred yards from the finish. If SEC did that, I don't think SB would have the top line speed to pull him back.
eckythimble 4 months ago
Time is important, but only when taken into account along with the weight carried, the course run over, the trajectory of the horse's trip, and the condition of the ground.
tubeyhamster 5 months ago
It's important to remember that all horses are fallible. Even the truly stellar ones. Mill Reef lost at Newmarket, The Brigadier lost at York. Sea Bird himself lost in the Grand Criterium. Secretariat lost several races. Nijinsky lost at Longchamp....they are all fallible. What marks Sea Bird is the bizarre ease with which he cantered along.
tigerarmyrule 7 months ago
@tigerarmyrule so true there animals at the end of the day and we all have bad days. like u wot amazes me is the ease at which he canters along and goes clear without even being asked or giving 100%.
TheDarleyarabian 5 months ago
@tigerarmyrule Well said. His blinding acceleration seemed so effortless. Aesthetically about as pleasing as a horse can be.
schardy80 4 months ago
Please help.The Derby is a flat race and time is key.Why was this one of the greatest Derby wins when his time is a good +10secs off the current record????????????????Je comprends pas.Io no comprendo.Ich verstehe nicht.Bit of a hulllaballo about nothing if you ask me.Top 20 horse at best.
rananim3 7 months ago
No Phalaris(English Bred) and NO Sickle( English bred) = NO Native Dancer. Just food for thought :)
TicinoParadise 7 months ago
@TicinoParadise Good point. rcshumann is correct in point up SBs pedigree but the hints of nationalism in his comments fail to take the point that ultimately if you trace those bloodlines far enough you'll find non American horses.
tigerarmyrule 7 months ago
Sea Bird owes his superior talent to his grandsire, Native Dancer (the Gray Ghost), one of the best to come out of the US. This horse won 21 of his 22 starts, and is among the few to win the Preakness, Belmont and Travers Stakes. His only loss came at the Derby when he was roughed up early in the race, and lost by the narrowest of margins. No Native Dancer - No Sea Bird.
rcschumann 7 months ago
@rcschumann - Um you can ACTUALLY Thank the GREAT Nearco who was 14 for 14, and has his bloodline in some of the VERY BEST horses of the 20th Century. Nearctic, Northern Dancer, Nijinsky2, Secretariat, Ruffian, Makybe Diva, Nasrullah, Invasor, Seattle slew, Dante,Nimbusn etc...."According to France Galop, from 1985 through to 2010 every Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner can trace a blood-line back to Nearco, his son Nasrullah, and his grandson Northern Dancer". Enough Said :)
TicinoParadise 7 months ago
@TicinoParadise I don't doubt the great Nearco's tremendous influence on many champion racehorses, but I was specifically referring to Sea Bird's pedigree. This horse was the powerhouse he was because of his grandsire, the mighty Native Dancer (No.7 in the US top 100 and one of the best sires of all time). I know that Nearco was the great grandsire of both Secretariat and Nijinsky, and is present in the pedigrees of other champions on both continents - but he's not in Sea Bird's bloodline.
rcschumann 7 months ago
@rcschumann - True. Cheers.
TicinoParadise 7 months ago
Please read the book 'A Century of Champions' by Tony Morris and John Randall. They give an excellent analysis of the world's greatest race horses and give them a rating using the criteria created by Timeform. You will not agree with all their rankings, but they have made the best attempt so far.
stonerr 7 months ago
i am bored with yanks cracking on about secretariat on here!!! yes he was a good horse, but the fact is yank horses run the same way round flat tracks and gallop, to win around europe horses come across undulating tracks ( and even run clock-wise, longchamp) like epsom and i tell you now secretariat would not win an english derby due to this. the adaptability of european champions like sea bird, nijinsky, dancing brave and shergar and sts who all had a turn of foot american horse dont have!!!
johngilly28 8 months ago
@johngilly28 Check out Secretariat's Preakness Stakes, when he makes a devastating last-to-first move round the treacherous first turn at Pimlico (dubbed the "suicide move" by Beyer) and you will see a "turn of foot" of epic proportions. His two G1 wins on turf and the fact that he once trained well going right-handed on a track, leads me to believe that he would have won the Arc. His jockey said he was even better on grass, after winning a major 1 1/2 mile turf race. Sec would have loved Epsom!
rcschumann 7 months ago
@rcschumann i take it you've never been to epsom, i doubt sec would of loved it
johngilly28 7 months ago
@johngilly28 A friend of mine has UK Racing on satellite and I've watched many a race there, including the recent Derby and Oaks (Dettori bombed in that one). I'm sure Sec would have loved it as he was a quick learner, and the turf was a natural surface for him. I once read an analysis of his style and how well the grass catered to it - this surface acts like a springboard for his giant, piston-like stride. Why wouldn't he love Epsom? At his best no horse beats him anywhere, on any surface.
rcschumann 7 months ago
I prefer my horse racing champions to not be drugged up to the eyeballs, so I'm not listening to arguments that America's greatest would beat Europe's greatest, simply because they don't compete on a level playing field. As for Sea Bird being some sort of wonder horse, I have difficulty with that too. I keep hearing what an impressive Derby winner he was, but Shergar, and Troy, were more impressive in my view. Hawk wing is a classic example of people getting carried away by one performance.
Delroy444 9 months ago
Sea Bird, Secretariat, Dancing Brave, Nijinsky, Man O War, you name who you like, put them in a mile race against Brigadier Gerard and he'd destroy the lot of them.
Delroy444 9 months ago
Comment removed
SteveOconn41 9 months ago
Comment removed
SteveOconn41 9 months ago
Seabird and Secretariat both great great horses.But i wouldnt be able to split them had they ever raced against each other.To say one is better than the other is futile.
One thing i would say had they raced over 12f on turf and seabird was within 2-3 lengths with 2 furlongs to goi believe he would have accelerated past him...but it would have been big if just to be within 2 -3 lengths of Big Red.So lets just appreciate 2 legendary horses,rather than bickering and squabbling.
sonofscrewcap 9 months ago
rschumann - You post ur bile under the premise that racing fans this side of the pond had never heard of Secretariat or his great achievements. I remember Big Red's triple crown very well. He was a great horse, of that there is little doubt. It is foolish to compare a dirt US champ with a European champ such as Sea Bird. If you are looking for versatility and greatness, look no further than Nijinsky, who won the British Triple Crown at distances of 8 furlongs, 12 furlongs to 14 furlongs.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
One of the most naturally talented racehorses to ever grace the track. His running action is perfection. Would of been clash of two racing gods if he and secretariat were racing at the same time on the same continent. But to be honest id put pharlap up their with both seabird and secretariat in terms of talent.
SoulSurvivor79 9 months ago
blind freddy can see what a champion seabird was.if people can't accept that,they know stuff all abouit horse racing!
cheers from down under.
gratefultiger 1 year ago
Well,this is all very civilized but the greatest racehorse EVER was Secretariat.You can have your Sea Bird as the greatest turf champion if you like but NO HORSE could have beat Big Red at Belmont 73.His acceleration on the 1st turn at the Preakness is the greatest move by a horse in history.SEC's heart was an estimated 22 lbs!Beat that!
rananim3 1 year ago
@rananim3 Secretariat's heart size, though unusual, was not unique. His great rival, Sham, also had an enlarged heart, as did Australian champion, Phar Lap, and Arkle - the great jump horse of all. Secretariat was defeated on five occasions - once by four lengths, and when he had every chance of winning.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt He was beaten because he was handled by humans.I love all horses and Sea Bird was for sure top FIVE of all time.But nothing beats Secretariat,nothing.Timeform are wrong.
rananim3 1 year ago
@rananim3 Secretariat - The most overrated horse in the history of the world. Just an horse the yanks like to glorify to make themselfs feel better when they realise the greatest thoroughbred champions have all come from Europe
ASupremeOwl 10 months ago
@ASupremeOwl Sea Bird - The most overrated horse in the history of the world. Just any horse the Euros like to glorify to make themselves feel better when they realise the greatest thoroughbred champions have all come from the US. And that's a fact, English prick! Some of the best horses raced in the UK were American bred, like Giant's Causeway, Henrythenavigator, and Sakhee. Secretariat is superior to all. He won on dirt AND grass, and would bury Sea Bird on any surface, over any distance.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@ASupremeOwl Did Sea Bird ever win a race by going each 1/4 mile faster than the previous one, from start to finish? That's was Sec did at Derby and Belmont. The way Secretariat won Belmont has nothing to do with surfaces and times, but with unique and umatched ability on the track - he was still accelerating when he hit the wire at Belmont, at the end of a 1 1/2 mile race in very hot conditions. Did Sea Bird ever make such a "suicidal move" (Andy Beyer) as Secretariat did at Preakness cont
rcschumann 9 months ago
@ASupremeOwl when he went from last to first early in the race, passing horses like they were standing still? Was Sea Bird as versatile as Secretariat on the track? The latter won from the inside, giving up huge ground on the outside, on the lead, from far back, in between horses. No horse has ever won in so many different ways. He proved his three losses at 3 were flukes by killing the field and setting records after each loss. Think before you blast a racing legend, you stupid monkey.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rcschumann You my friend are the most boring individual I ever come across on Youtube. The best throughbreds have come from the US and then you go and name HenrytheNavigator and Giants Causeway as examples who rank where with Timeform? If you go through thoroughbred history horses from the UK and France are far far more talented and precocious. The most prestigious races in the world are here in Europe, Theres one race in the US that I could remotely care about and thats the Breeders Classic..
ASupremeOwl 9 months ago
@ASupremeOwl Secretariat had English and French blood in him through Princequillo, and I have no doubt that had he been trained in the UK like Nijinsky, he would have dominated even more on the turf. Sea Bird had American blood in him through Native Dancer (the Gray Ghost) and I'm positive he would have killed in the US if he was trained on the dirt. So lets just celebrate these magnificent thoroughbreds.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rcschumann Point of order. Nijinsky was trained in Ireland, not the UK.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@rcschumann Sea Bird would have destroyed Secretariat at 1m 4f. Deal with it and jog on...
ASupremeOwl 9 months ago
@ASupremeOwl Secretariat would have destroyed over 1m 10f, and probably over 1m 4f too. Sea Bird never won races the way Secretariat did, in so many different ways and on two surfaces. But like the guy below said: they were both great. By the way, where was Dancing Brave bred? America. Where was Nijinsky bred? Canada. Nijinsky's sire, Northern Dancer, won the biggest races on dirt in the US, and his son did the same on turf in the UK. It's safe to say the UK, US and Canada have bred the finest.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rananim3
We don't count US horses. sniff
dinerouk 11 months ago
@dinerouk They do now.
bgardiner2000 10 months ago
Aside from riding the great Sea Bird II Australian jockey Pat Glennon also rode one of the greatest Melbourne Cup winners in history for the Cummings - Comic Court in the 1950 Melboune Cup in record time (first time under 3:20 for the race) carrying 59.5Kg. He certainly got to see the best of the best.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@francilius What about Onion and Prove Out? Didn't they beat him in his prime over his best distance on dirt?
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
Comment removed
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
The speed he gets past the leaders in the Derby is just ridiculous. In terms of the post-war gallopers (pre-WII are difficult to get a measure on) he has to rate as the best ever. Given the quality of horses he beat in the Arc, and the manner in which he won the Derby.... I guess his rating at 145, the highest ever speaks for itself.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@bgardiner2000 As Sea Bird's Derby time was a colossal 7 seconds slower than Workforce's time last year, he is hardly in the reckoning for all-time best discussions.
Nautilus1972 1 year ago
@Nautilus1972 Time is only important if you're in jail. The rest of that super field all ran 7 seconds slower don't forget... and he still gapped them like claimers. Time is only a superficial measure of greatness. Have a look for a horse called Mandurah. You may have never heard of him, as he was only a claimer last season. In June last year he ran a world record for 1 mile on any surace (1:31.25) at Monmouth. Surely that would make him the greatest miler that ever lived?? Hardly.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago 3
@Nautilus1972 So what? Time means very little in European racing. Were the ground conditions the same? Were there pacemakers? Workforce won well but Seabird was being eased from a furlong out as Pat Glennon was under orders not to have him galloping over the road which crossed the track not far after the winning line. Seabird's Arc had the best horses from UK, Ireland, France, USA and even USSR yet he trounced them.
jafeica 1 year ago
It was all too easy for him. It is actually true that it was just too easy. He never even looked like coming off the bit in either the Derby or against a world class Arc field. It's hard to compare him because he is literally incomparable. Even true greats like Mill Reef or Dancing Brave had to try. Nijinsky, pre ringworm, is in my opinion the nearest thing.
tigerarmyrule 1 year ago
what about another champion sea the stars
dnjljjess 1 year ago
What an horse....
ASupremeOwl 1 year ago
@SECRETARIATANDALUZ Shove Secretariat where the sun doesnt shine. Not in the calibre of some of Europes past champions, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave just to name a few!
ASupremeOwl 1 year ago
THE RED TERROR Phar lap would have Sea Bird covered
manikato75 1 year ago
@TheEnglandWC Stalls were introduced a year later.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
Wow ! What a horse ! God, that was so easy. I don't think I've see an easier winner of a classic.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
The Horse of kings.
SlewSeattle 2 years ago
wow this horse is a true champion of the world
Balthizar1231 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
who's the woman at 3:38 she's absolutely gorgeous. i dont know about the horse, but i certainly see that bird
DancingBrave15 2 years ago
Ah- sorry. Wikipedia had incorrect info. I knew he didn't win the KY Derby, but then went looking for his actual wins.
Wildcat612 2 years ago
In order to be truly compared Sea Bird II and Dancing Brave would have to be compared in terms of their opponents : how good was 1968 vs. 1986 ? Was 1968 a very good year ? Perhaps it was. Was 1986 a good year ? Perhaps it was !
zarakhast 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Stick up for the brilliant Sea Bird II, Mr. PapaBill, why don't you ? I agree and disagree with you - Dancing Brave was better. You know my argument already. Dancing Brave's finishing speed was better than Sea Bird II's. DB's turn of foot was better ..
zarakhast 2 years ago
Comment removed
EpicJunior 2 years ago
Pour moi Sea Bird restera à jamais le "Cheval du Siècle". Ce Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe 1965 a été d'un niveau le plus relevé qu'on ait connu avant et après celui-ci. Les principaux chevaux qu'il battait ce jour-là étaient exceptionnels. Reliance, le second aurait fait un vainqueur exceptionnel s'il n'avait pas eu le malheur de "tomber" sur Sea Bird. Diatome était lui-même détaché du 4ème et derrière il y avait encore Tom Rolfe, Meadow Court, Anilin et Blabla. Excusez du peu...
allezfrance04 2 years ago
Es emocionante ver el mejor caballo,para mí,de la historia.
paradoxicus 2 years ago
Tom Rolfe, mentioned around 2:52, was not a Kentucky Derby winner. He won the Preakness, not the Derby.
Wildcat612 2 years ago
彼こそ紛う事無き歴代・芝中長距離の最強馬だと思う。
ChoBunnen 2 years ago
Most overrated Horse in History.
jmdm1957 2 years ago
Overrated? You are either a troll, or know zero about Horse Racing - probably both ;)
Spaceweed10 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I agree, sea bird was top class, but 145 is a bit high when he was so lightly raced, and Shergar was a better derby winner, Ribot won the arc by more and DB had better turn of foot.
147ard 2 years ago
It's hard to compare horses that did not face each other or ran in diferent eras, because everybody owns their truth but i consider Ribot's record as one of the most outstanding in the world's horse racing history!!! After all he was a perfect horse in every field, as a stallion, horse racer ect ,ect... Thanks for at least understanding my point of view my friend
(francilius)...
EpicJunior 3 years ago
It's hard to compare, you must consider the wins but also the "blood". RIBOT was the best. Think about this: his owner and breeder, Incisa, didn't agreed! He thought that NEARCO was better than him! Nearco, perfect thoroughbred, unbeated champion, 14/14, had only one fault: he didn't measure in competitions out of Italy. Like Ribot...
ernestogasperini 2 years ago
I did say 3 year olds and Golden Fleece's credentials on that level are impeccable, even if injury did prevent him from running again after his 1982 Epsom victory. The manner of his Derby win was sensational (look at the Youtube clip) as were his victories in the three other races in his career. He finished even faster than his sire, Nijinsky, and the fact that he also descended, on his dam's side, from Vaguely Noble suggests he might well have gone on to win the Arc.
Czerniakowska 3 years ago
Ribot was better!!! In my opinion
EpicJunior 3 years ago
The unbeatable Ribot would probably have had the edge on them both, though I would also include Golden Fleece and Lammtarra in any list of the greatest 3year olds ever over a mile and a half.
Czerniakowska 3 years ago
how can you say that big red never raced in europe i think he would have been a good horse over here but he would not have had it his own way against the likes of DB,S,N,BG,and of course the little fella.
jmdm1957 3 years ago