Australian Bushfires - Bunker Design Competition

[nixymagoo]

As sad as it may be, death is as neccessary as life

[AusPrepper]

Hey Rob,

Wondering how the project is coming along?

[tw1nk0ez1]

i rlly dont think they need help to design bunkers they all no how to bulid em itsreal simple i was in one a few weeks a go it just a big "hole"in the ground and asmall entrance and a wet towel over the it and the a nother wet towel also .and a few 44 gallon drums of water inside .and also tht u will find most people survied buy jumping in to there dams they also survived it may be worth while just giving every one a dam neer there house witch most people in counrty victoria have. sooo yea

[towradgiluke]

Yeah, This needs to happen. But I believe the proposed cost is far too low. $1000 bucks gets you a bed at IKEA.

Digging the hole and setting up the foundations and formwork etc is going to go over that budget.

$10 000 is a more realistic beginning.

[ROBwithaB]

You don't need concrete. The earth itself will do the insulating. All you need is to shore the ground up so that it doesn't collapse in on the hole. The most efficient way is with a catenary arch. I was thinking roto-moulded LDPE.

A 2000 litre septic tank is a pretty close approximation of an efficient fireproff bunker.

They are already in mass production. They are light and easy to transport.

To dig the hole takes about 8 hours for a reasonably fit man.

I'll post some video footage soon....

[m2910shc]

True,,,, nice thinking,hope its go well

[willemeulen]

What is happening on this topic Rob, have you made any progress. Underground is definatly the way to go, it insulates very good. In general ground temperature let say at one meter deep is close to the average temperature of the air, differences between summer and winter are a lot smaller, it can even be used to cool and warm the house in summer and winter.

W

[nickparker75]

I find it fascinating that people can criticise the proposal of fire bunkers.

The policy is "leave early or stay and defend".

For those who stay, what is plan B if you lose the fight? A wombat hole is better than nothing!

You don't go down with the ship because there isn't an Australian Standards life jacket available.

Good design and standards are to be highly encouraged, but to stay and fight without any kind of shelter is madness.

[ROBwithaB]

Agreed.

[ROBwithaB]

Obviously, it all has to start with WHERE do you build a house in the first place. Then how to design a more fire-proof house. Then, what you can do generally during the fire season to prepare. Then what you can do when you know a fire is coming.

All of these things must be done. If they are done properly, the chances of the house going are significantly reduced. But if you realise the house is going to go, a bunker could save your family.

[ROBwithaB]

It is definitely possible to build a bunker that would basically guarantee a 100% chance of survival. Your chances in a bunker, that is specifically designed to provide a survivable atmosphere during an extreme fire, are difinitely higher than in a house (no matter how well built or protected) that is designed for comfort, a view, entertainment, breezes, winter sun, security etc etc. The point is that a house is expected to fulfil many functions. It is a compromise at best.

[wobbit42]

My emotion is also anger. You may kill more people by this thatn you save.

A well designed, and prepared house, does provide protection. Proven by research. I've been to Kinglake since the fires. I live nearby.

When/how are you going to get to the bunker? How are you going to get out?

The leave or stay policy is a good policy. Trouble is that it is not understood. 'Leave' means leave early in the morning BEFORE there is a fire. A fear that a bunker will give false safety and kill more people.

[ROBwithaB]

The idea would be to build the bunker close enough to the house to accss easily, but far enough away to prevent the problems I have sketched earlier (falling rubble etc).

The question of when/how do you get to the bunker is an important one, and would depend on your strategy. If you plan to stay inside the house until the last moment, then probably an entrance from the house should be provided, along with another that would not be blocked by falling rubble etc.

[MusikAndLuv]

@ROBwithaB What about lack of oxygen? Some of these fires draw the oxygen from all available sources. I know in many large fires started by aerial bombing, people were asphyxiated in their shelters without being touched by fire.

[Froschdogg]

I wouldn't put myself in their shoes, because ya feet would be burnt off... LOL!

[ROBwithaB]

To soon, dude.

Bear in mind that some of the people watching this video would have been personally involved. They are probably not going to find your comment funny.

[Froschdogg]

Sorry, I got carried away and felt I had to jump on the bandwagon somehow. Obviously jumped on the wrong side of it... LOL!

[westr0ck]

good thinking though mate,m but we need to read and understand more about reducing community vulnerability by telling them and the bloody media to start showing information on property protection.

[ROBwithaB]

Absolutely. The first step in community preparedness has to be about reducing the risk to existing structures. There are many ways to reduce the risks, some of which are cheap and simple to implement. The most powerful weapon is knowledge. One would like to see the media getting more involved in the "boring" business of getting the information out there, instead of descending like vultures when tragedy strikes.

Bunkers are a last resort, and should not replace basic preparedness as a strategy.

[westr0ck]

if you wonder how i know, its because i was there I saw and heard things that concur with what you said about extreme conditions and the concept of buildings not being able to with stand the impact of the fire. There are no standards, because even the most (bomb proof) bunker, or building still failed in a fire that is driven by a weather event of this magnitude. I need to let you know that there was considerable evidence that many steel structures that failed at temps over 1000C.

[ROBwithaB]

I think the trick would be to go underground. Earth is an enormously good insulator. I have made a video, which I must still post, of me aiming a blowtorch at my hand, which is covered by a thin layer of soil. Even a few inches of soil is enough to prevent the transfer of heat, so that I can keep my hand there almost indefinitely without discomfort.

The other consideration would then be ventilation, but I think that is a soluble problem, given that one only needs about half an hour of oxygen.

[westr0ck]

Rob, thanks for the thoughts.

sorry but a competition may not be the answer to this problem, its a very complex problem. the deaths were unneccessary given that there were so many in poorly constructed bunkers.

[ROBwithaB]

The question of poorly-constructed bunkers is exactly what I am trying to address. I am convinced that it is possible to design a fire-proof bunker that will withstand a 1,000 degree fire event.

The reason that I am so confident is that I have already designed and tested something that works. But I am sure that mine is not the best possible design.

I was hoping that more people would get involved in this, to swap out ideas and refine the design.

But will post my version. And show it works.

[peacemtn]

I agree.

[WildRebecca]

wonderful :D

[evilbrainproductions]

hey Rob, great ideas mate ;]

shared

[ROBwithaB]

Exactly.

Some people died in bunkers and some people owe their lives to them, when everything surrounding was devastated .

The intention is to find out WHY; what EXACTLY was the difference between those bunkers that were able to sustain the occupants and those that were not.

Obviously, bunkers are not the be-all-and-end-all of a fire plan. But I believe very strongly that, if properly designed, they could save many lives.

Thanks for the input, it is all welcome.

[ROBwithaB]

Thanks for the link. It was one I hadn't seen before.

I watched the video and my heart goes out to Dave. It is clear that the burden of not being able to save those people weighs heavily.

A cellar under the house is not necessarily a good idea, for a few reasons I can think of:

1. Falling rubble etc could trap the occupants in the cellar.

2. The fuel represented by the house and its contents may lead to a more intense fire directly above the cellar than elsewhere.

3. Heavy furniture....

[ROBwithaB]

(cont)... filing cabinets, structural timbers etc represents heavier fuels that would burn for longer. Instead of a fire front that passes relatively quickly at high temperature, a house would continue smouldering for some time after the fire has passed, prolonging the heating of the cellar beneath.

4. Much of that smouldering fuel would fall DIRECTLY onto the concrete slab, leading to direct heating. Concrete has a high thermal mass, but will heat in direct contact.

5. A high intensity...

[ROBwithaB]

... fire directly above the cellar would tend to create a significant vacuum, drawing up the available oxygen out of the cellar.

So, as difficult as it might be to say, some people may have lost their lives as a result of poor decisions.

Good decisions can only be made in the presence of good information. The intention of this project is to generate that information.

This project is not intended to replace the research of the CSIRO or CFA, but rather ADD to the available knowledge. Thanks.

[ROBwithaB]

The fires were a tragedy of unprecedented magnitude. It is a difficult situation, because one wants to accord the necessary respect for those who died, but at the same time, by assuming that there was NOTHING that could have been done to save lives, we would be doomed to repeat the tragedy.

The fires WILL come again. We need to be prepared.

Whilst it might be very difficult to bear for those who lost loved ones, there ARE things that could have been done differently to prevent loss of life.

[ROBwithaB]

I understand that emotions are still very raw and that any attempt to analyze the "mistakes" that might have been made could be interpreted as disrespect.

In no way am I attempting to belittle the suffering and loss of the vidtims, or the contribution of the firefighters and other volunteers.

Fire is not unique to Australia. The laws of thermodynamics are the same everywhere.

I don't pretend to have the answers. Maybe others do. That is exactly why I launched this project. All input welcomed

[tubester4567]

omg are you serious? We have fire plans , we know what to do?...but theres nothing you can do about the fires we had? You sound like you're contradicting yourself and you sound like a fool. The highest office in the state has called for a royal commision to find better methods. NO ONE DIED IN A BUNKER. Most people were caught in houses they thought they could defend. We know bunkers are not new but ALMOST NOBODY HAS ONE, you know what you are too stupid to even try.

[ROBwithaB]

I think one of the problems is that many people who are new to the country have no understanding of how powerful fires can be.

I saw that the CFA had distributed 200,000 DVD's in the months before the fires, in the those areas subsequently affected.

It is clear from some of the footage that I've seen, that many of the householders never bothered to watch those DVD's, for whatever reason, or never implemented the advice.

[internationalroaming]

I live in the Dandenongs Sherbrooke Forest, most people know what to do during bush fires. I think the problem this time was because we've been in severe drought for almost 10 years, and the temps in Melbourne that week were in the mid 40's.

[tubester4567]

Well, i and Rob, the State Governement and many others strongly disagree with you. (that theres nothing we can do). If you think its a bad idea why not just leave us alone. Why try and drag down other peoples work.?

[ROBwithaB]

tubester

By all means debate, disagree, exchange information, etc.

But please keep it civil and refrain from personal attack. I know it's an emotionally charged subject. Still, we are LESS likely to arrive at useful answers if people are dividing themselves into separate camps and slinging insults back and forth.

Let's keep it about the issues, okay?

This is about trying to assimilate INFORMATION, in order to make decisions that are better informed.

Thanks

[tubester4567]

YA ok, but i dont see the point in trying to stop people coming up with new ideas, and to say everything is perfect right now becuase obviously its not.

[tubester4567]

Show me one report of anyone dying in an underground bunker.

[ROBwithaB]

I think the key word here is "underground".

Earth is an extremely effeective insulator. And you would also have access to the cooler air at the base of the fire.

In the Black Friday fires of 1939, many survived in bunkers that were little more than trenches with a roof of corrugated iron and a layer of earth.

The critical question might be ventilation: how to guarantee sufficient cool, oxygenated air.

I am worlking on that specifically.

[ROBwithaB]

I have read most of the CFA literature, becuase much of it is just as useful in South Africa as it is over there. That is the wonder of the internet, that people can share knowledge from all over the world to help one another.

The problem with the info that CFA publishes is that many seem to ignore it. Perhaps education should be mandatory , maybe at school level?

Of course all the other steps must be taken first. But bunker doesn't HAVE to be expensive, hence my design project.

US$ 1,000.

[tubester4567]

Thats no excuse. With global warming the experts have said to expect dryer hotter summer conditions in the years to come and more bad fires.

[jenzatron]

Fantastic idea. I'll be forwarding this. Thanks, Bob.

[ROBwithaB]

Thanks, Jen.

I am particularly interested in getting schools involved in this project, entering the competition as a science project, that sort of thing. So if you know any schoolkids who could get their teachers involved, that'd be great.

Also, still looking for corporate sponsors. I don't mind sponsoring a prize, but our currency is weak at the mo. For the project to really take off, we'll need a BIG prize, like $100,000 or maybe even a million.

THAT would get people thinking of solutions.

[tubester4567]

Good work Rob. A small bunker could be dug out with a bobcat, and then a bricklayer could do the rest. Or a prefabricated concrete bunker could be dropped into the hole. I would have an oxygen bottle down there too. I guess that would cost $5000 or so but if specialised companies were setup to build them it could be much cheaper. I'm sure someone has a better idea but either way it must be done, good luck.

[ROBwithaB]

I believe it can be done for less than US$1,000.

In fact, I already have a prototype that I am testing. As for oxygen, if the bunker is underground and realtievly tightly sealed, I don't think it would be necessary. But if it were, miners have chemical reaction "oxygen bags" that give about an hour's oxygen. $80.

But I know there are people out there who are much smarter than I am, with more experience of fires and/or fire safety.

Please help to publicise this project as widely as possible.

[tubester4567]

I'm thinking $1000 is very optomistic. You need some kind of machinery like a bobcat, materials and labor and transport to remote areas. Labor alone would probably cost $1000. If your can do it for $1000 it would be winner, but i am interested to hear your plans.

[tubester4567]

OK you fool. So how is it going to be cheaper to rebuild every country house using ICF than building a small bunker?? ICF homes are built from the ground up, how is someone with a weatherboard homestead going to utilise ICF without rebuilding the whole house? Do you know how much they cost? I dont understand why you would want to attack a genuine guy that is trying to make things better. A protected underground bunker will survive any fire. Fires dont burn through the earth, even the bad ones.

[tubester4567]

OMG 200 people just died and you think Oh its fine we dont need to do anything new or try anything new,,,do you see my frustration at how silly that sounds? And btw rebuilding fire damaged houses acounts for maybe 5 % of all the houses currently in the Australian bush.

[ROBwithaB]

The CFA did an amazing job, under the circumstances. The fact that most firefighters are volunteers makes it even more commendable.

As I said to tubester, every family who's safe in a bunker is one less family that needs to be rescued by firefighters, who put their own lives on the line each time. Imagine a situation where you approach a house and there is some sort of sign to say: "Don't worry, we're fine. Go where you're more needed." It would help the firefighters, too.

Let's design it !

[ROBwithaB]

For many of the existing houses, the cost of retro-fitting them to make them fire-safe would be sugnificantly more expensive than the cost of a bunker.

If it were possible to design an affordable bunker that was tested and CERTIFIED to be effective, it could simly be another option open to people and many would probably choose VOLUNTARILY to install one on their properties.

Every family protected by a safe bunker is one less family that has to be rescued by firefighters.

[burgundyca]

I'm real saddened to hear about the fires in Australia, I wish there was something more I could do - like offer a home, clothing, and hot meals; unfortunately I live far away, in the land of the great, white North!

Love you, Rob!

I will certainly pass this video onto family and friends!

<3

[ROBwithaB]

Thanks.

Your comments always make me smile.

Ja, it's frustrating for me to see such suffering and being so far away. I have friends over there. Felt like jumping on a 'plane and flying over to volunteer fight fires, but that's obviously not practical.

This project was the best contribution I could think of (along with sending some money over for the relief effort).

[hoodlum666]

You have heaps wierd eyes, one would think you are from ET. I like the concept of utilizing the power of the internet to captivate many viewers with the power of your eyes, im sure it works with many of your viewers. But not me. Keep it up.

[ROBwithaB]

Huh?

[hoodlum666]

Not quite there are you sunshine, don't play dumb with me cunt..

[ROBwithaB]

Dude!

We're talking about saving lives in bushfires. That's what this conversation is about. You seem to be having a completely different conversation.

ALL BY YOURSELF.

If you keep that up, people will start pointing and whispering. Then eventually that white van with the padded interior will arrive to take you away.

Seriously. The trick to joining a conversation is to follow the thread, then contribute something new. Barging in and mumbling obscenities isn't the way to go.

Good luck.

[Number1ROBwithaBfan]

gr8 idea will forwrd

[ROBwithaB]

Thanks, fangirl.

Click that mouse to save a life.

[Leilani233]

I believe there are some houses in bushfire-prone areas that have these bunkers and I believe I heard of at least one family surviving the bushfire thanks to their bunker. This is a brilliant idea, Rob. I'll be circulating it!

[ROBwithaB]

Thanks.

Yeah, there were a few people who decided to erect their own bunkers, thereby ensuring their survival. If a layperson can build something like that from scratch, without any plans or experience, then it can't be that complicated.

The idea would be to take all the existing knowledge, invite participation from people with experience in the field, and incorporate modern materials to come up with a number of designs, then test these to arrive at a standard.

The more input the better !

[SomebodyIusedtoknow]

good luck ♥

[ROBwithaB]

Thanks.

It would be great if you could forward this to someone at the Chicago Fire Department, or to the local Universities, etc.

The scary thing about wildfire is that, with global warming, we are likely to see fire affecting huge areas of the globe that never really had a problem before. Within a few years or decades, we will see similar tragedies in temperate areas that have always been considered "safe".

I am keen for input from ANY relevant sources, even those from far afield.

[Arthur40TwoDent]

Cool idear Rob, I'll pass the video on.

[ROBwithaB]

Thanks. This project will only work if it gets broad support.

[ROBwithaB]

It will all depend on the extent to which the Australian public becomes involved in the process.

[Doomedlight]

The Fires are Horrific...

I was thinking about this, we need a room like a Storm Bunker in every house!...

I'm not good with designing things..

[ROBwithaB]

Yes. A bit like a storm bunker. But not necessarily IN the house.

P.S. Even if you can't design the thing, you could still help by publicising the project. The required legislation will only come into effect if there is enough political pressure from the Australian people.

And even if you can't design it, you can let others know about this, maybe THEY could design it, and even if they cant, maybe THEY know someone who can....

I already have a basic design, though. Will post again soon.

[klokan0440]

bunkers all good and well, but with 60,000 fires in Australia each year and 1/2 of them man made. wouldn't bunkers encourage people more to light fires if they knew nobody was going to get hurt? You are looking for prevention, how about start with the cowards lighting the fires. Find a way to stop them. They are not smart people don't try to test them, it is a waste of time.

[ROBwithaB]

Sure, about half the fires are man-made. That means half of them are NOT. Should we let people burn to death in THOSE fires?

Of the man-made fires, these include accidental fires started by vehicles, friction, accelerants, smoking, barbecue fires etc, as well as fires deliberately set BY FIREFIGHTERS and farmers for fire control.

I suspect that the "arsonists" are being used as scapegoats by politicians to distract an angry public from the fact that they haven't done thier jobs.

[ROBwithaB]

My concern is that the "Royal Commission" will be a protracted political talk-shop, designed to placate the public and avoid any blame being apportioned to the leaders, who SHOULD have anticipated this and were WARNED by the fire-fighting services that it was likely to happen.

[AmericaRulesYouDrool]

You fucking saffa... why would you care about Aussies!

[ROBwithaB]

As the bumper sticker on the minibus taxi in front of me proclaimed: "I love everyone and you're next."

It's not about nationality. There are two broad bands around the globe, just beyond the sub-tropics in each hemisphere, that are very prone to wildfires: Southern California, Spain, South Africa, Southern Australia; many many people around the world are at risk. Global warming is likely to push these bands away from the equator, exposing more people to harm.

P.S. Drooling is cool! Rule!

[TheGullyKad]

Yet another dick who can't handle his ego. Don't forget, it was America that put the world in the economic situation it's facing.

[Doomedlight]

I now hate you.

[ROBwithaB]

The replies are posting all cock-eyed again.

Which makes it look like you now hate ME, rather than some jingoistic troll.

[Doomedlight]

Oops.. YEah it wasn't at you