But honestly I like japanophiles! Really! But only those who are not supporting their japanophilia by talking down other cultures. Most of the "good ones" are really suprised and intrigued when taught about european Middle Ages how it really was aside all the romantic myths and movies. And I equally dislike any kind of "supremacists", be it Knight, Samurai, Islam or Mormon supremacy.
It's sort of sad that random youtube comments are more historically accurate than the history channel. I especially like the cut off point -- Where we are supposed to believe that Samurai refused to wear armor and were equipped with only the Katana.
the thing i found impressive about the katana was the speed. The katana managed 3 cuts in the time it took the broadsword to do one, and the broadsword wielder was slightly off balance after the second cut
@gunfighter964 To be fair, the guy with the "broadsword" (bad terminology) doesn't know what he is doing. No one needs to make swings that big. For comparison, look at this - /watch?v=FQeTwRVKq7o - AT1557CuttingFromScabbard on ShooterMikeSBG Youtube Channel.
Yeah, it's a display of skill in which the less skilled wielder of the knightly sword lost. It could also be a poorly balanced reproduction sword. It's somewhat difficult to get accurate, balanced reproductions of european swords due to decades of misconceptions about them as well as manufacturers looking to cut costs and pander to misinformed customers.
Railstar's video is a good demonstration of capability and skill.
A well made broadsword or longsword will always be superior to a katana. A katana wouldn't be a very good weapon to have on an European battlefield, it's cutting power would be outmatched by anything above and including chainmail, and it's not as good a piercing weapon as the European swords, on the other hand a European sword would do just fine in Japan. Katanas are actually pretty brittle. You're not supposed to parry or deflect blows with your sword, which is not true for the European ones.
Katana can deflect blows with the flat of the blade or catch them on the thick spine as easily as any european sword can. Such can be seen from examples of historic katana that have been in battle, showcasing slight scratches on the flat and by the handguard and small nicks on the spine . Of course, outright avoidance or counter-attacking was preferred in both cases.
You are correct that it cannot cut through riveted mail, but neither can knightly swords. However, some knightly blades had tips fine enough to pierce Through the links in the mail, whereas the broad, cutting optimized katana tip generally cannot.
You also can't halfsword a katana like you can a longsword, nor is the pommel as heavy and weaponized, and the LS larger crossguard is better for defensive measures such as tripping, trapping, binding, ect.
The katana is roughly similar to the widely used 'messer' singled-edged curved sword in europe(or sabers for that matter). It would be a nightmare for the standard infantryman that did not possess a complete suit of mail or better, parting through leather and flesh easily.
It is perfect for unarmored civilian duels and ambushes in constricted urban areas as well, with the iaido strike.
And yes, a LS would do just fine in Japan, with training.
@LokarMD Not actually lighter, both swords weigh from around 2-3 lbs, usually closer to 2. The speed difference in this video is mostly due to using unnecessarily large swings - compare with the video AT1557CuttingFromScabbard on ShooterMikeSBG channel.
But we all know the hat is the ultimate advantage. ;)
The katana was the superior weapon, I studied them briefly in my engineering studies on materials, the katana used a unique smithing method that made them both stronger and more shock absorbent, meaning they stayed sharper longer and could take more damage while still being lighter.
@EvilBakaCat 1 - Katana smithing method was not unique. Piling, pattern-welding, differential hardening was common in other cultures, who had been using the same techniques way earlier than the Japanese (before replacing those techniques with something better).
2 - Katana were not lighter unless than other swords of the same length. Tsurugi Bashi Kendo Kai openly acknowledges this.
@EvilBakaCat Sorry, I made a mistake in my last comment. I was thinking 2 sentences at once and got them crossed when typing it out. It meant either...
Not lighter than other swords of the same length.
Not lighter unless the other sword is larger.
My apologies for the confusion. That said, they are still beautiful swords.
The only unique aspect AFAIK was how japanese heat treated their blades. They used differential hardening via clay to control the rate of cooling, and it is this which produces the curve and gives a very hard edge and softer spine.
Elsewhere most cultures would slack quench the blade in oil, creating a blade of medium-high hardness, or a hard quench followed by tempering, which yields a hard edge, soft core and great durability.
Ahh, second note. The other semi-unique aspect was the smelting process. They smelted the black, ferrous sands of the Japanese beaches to produce low-grade iron/steel(which was forged folded until impurities were worked out and it was usable)
Kinda similar to how the vikings would smelt peat from peat bogs, which naturally contained 'bog' iron due to bacterial concentration of water-borne iron coming off the mountain streams.
@WitheringintheDark ahhh ok thanks. So other nations used the same cooling technique that made the blade have a strong and brittle skin but a shock absorbing under layer?
More or less. I know of no other culture off the top of my head that used clay for diff. hardening like the japanese did. China and europe largely treated them in similar ways, sharpened the swords in similar ways too.
In general, mainland swords weren't quite as hard and brittle as japanese ones, making them more durable and slightly more flexible at the expense of some edge-retention ability.
Slack or oil quenching was one of the cheapest, quickest, and easiest to do, yielding a blade around 500-600vph all the way through, making a flexible, durable cutting blade capable of holding a pretty sharp edge that can withstand impact. The chinese and others would use the 'swallow' method of quenching to harden just the edge and tip by dipping it in flat and edge first and then resurfacing.
Tempering was much harder and riskier, but gives you greater control over the blades hardness then clay hardening as you can use the color of the heated steel to judge the hardness when quenched; edges of over 700vph with cores below 200vph are achievable, comparing well with katana, which usually have an edge around 800vph and a core below 200.
In addition to protherium's link, you should find the google books preview of Alan Williams The Knight and the Blast Furnace. Even the preview covers alot about medieval forging and smithing methods, as well as armor and sword hardness and thickness, as well as the history behind it.
Just like I said, the whole method is unique, but not the particular steps like folding, laminating and clay-based hardening.
Take a european Knightly sword of appr.1100 AD. They were folded up to 10 times, check. Piled construction of steel and iron, check. But then, they make a full quench and annealing, differential hardness would eventually have been achieved through selective heating - edge hotter than the rest, if quenched edge gets much harder.
Extensive research (Williams, Emmerling, Neumann, Mäder) has revealed that medieval swords were not uniform in their hardness like modern steel blades, the most hard parts were the edges and the point. But there is absolutely no proof of clay hardening in Europe, the results may be similar but the process was different.
The forging process, refining (folding) lamination and selective hardening are in principle not unique to Japan, Persian and Celtic smiths used all of them 1,5 millenia earlier. But what is unique is the combination of these - japanese sword is the only known sword which 1). used very extensive folding 2). selective hardening using clay coating, which also gives the sword its curvature.
some of u are so stupid the katana was a small in with but was smelted so many time the steel was verry strong and not having a blade on the back was better the back is like an ax and gives it power without brute strength and u can clearly see its faster u can get out 2 swings at the time the broadsword gets out 1 katana is the best sword in the world
@stoner4l6 LoL. People like you is the very reason I stopped arguing against all this. Sure, buddy. Swords can cut like axes. Actually, if you sharpen a crayon from just one side it will cut like an axe too. True story.
@stoner4l6 You can clearly see he uses needlessly large swings with the arming sword (broadsword is a wrong term). Katana weren't smelted, because smelting sucks for sword design.
Claiming there is a best sword in the world shows a profound misunderstanding of how swords were designed and used.
Yes and so is the longsword, the zweihander and the chinese dao. But mostly it's the name of the late basket-hilted sword as a description that it's not as thin as the rapier.
Why call anything a broadsword if there isn't a sword in that time that are less broad. To call an arming sword a broadsword only cause confusion. But sure, it's not really wrong to call it that, but the arming sword has got that name for no good reason imo.
It might interest you all to know that complex tempering and blade manufacture was in use in northern England in the 6th century, based on the evidence of a find at Bamburgh Castle of a sword pattern welded from five bars of steel. Extremely sharp, extremely durable. That predates Japanese smithing techniques by seven centuries.
crappy shitvideo that doesnt proof anything ... the only reason to use a katana is because a person feels like a child becoming a "ninja samurai master" yaaaay how cute. it is only one edged - fail, it has a nearly useless crossguard - fail, it has no metal pommel - fail, it is only slightly sharper than a longsword but of about same weight and much easier to break - fail. the only thing where a katana really shines surprisingly is thrusting through plate armor cause the blade almost doesnt bend
@godmode86 you dont know anything about katana, do you? -_-" what is your reference to a katana? hollywood? the mall? get your facts straight before you fail post like that.
@godmode86 they only needed one edge to the blade. why would you ever need to use both edges? the katanas were made out of only the best steels and were made by folding the steel many many times until it was as long and thin as it is making it extremely strong. katanas are 1000 times harder to break than those broad swords that are poured into molds to make which make them fragile
@wasbro1 You don't have the first idea about bladesmithing, do you? You're just repeating the same old tired bullshit. All swords are TEMPERED from a steel bar (or many, if you are pattern-welding). European swords are made in the same way as Japanese ones. This bollocks about 'thousands' of folds is a MYTH.
@wasbro1 No medieval sword was poured into a mould. It was not how they were made. They were forged instead. Early European swords were made with piling or pattern-welding (essentially versions of folding the steel) until improvements in their metalworking made it unnecessary. Folding only helps if you are working with primitive steel.
Two edges gives you more angles to cut from. They are quite subtle techniques but they work great.
@wasbro1 i thought a katana is a weapon you use intelligent and not with brute barbarian force like a european sword... so how come you cannot think of how you make use if two edges + crossguard + pommel in a fight. katanas have a hard edge and a soft back. once the edge breaks (and it in fact breaks pretty good since its only a few mm strong) the rest of the weapon deforms easily and is rendered nearly useless while a european sword does not fucking care about a notch in its edge.
"...and not with brute barbarian force like a european sword..."
Medieval fencing masters calls this kind of people buffalos or peasant, trained swordsmen didn't fight like this. This is why many of the surviving fencing manuscripts from medieval times talks about things like that the art always is more important than strength.
Cutting is only one factor. What about the thrust? What about weapons designed to punch through armour, such as the pollaxe or spear? There's a certain blindness about this 'which sword is best' argument. There are so many different factors to take into account. But one thing remains true. Steel - sharp or blunt - against skin and bone will win every time.
this comparison is bad, the western sword was made to cut through heavy armor, while the katana was slicing , the jap armor is wayy weaker, is just 2 different design
@hotspurschool I don't think the meant to imply that broadswords required less skill but a hand and a half sword is generally not going to be as quick as a katana. Euro swords require more strength and that probably because western soldiers were much larger, a katana is smaller and lighter while still maintaining strength and cutting power which is part of why people like them so much they're just friendlier to handle. I'm half German and half japanese so no cultural bias
Theres katanas as heavy as 3.5lbs or more and longswords as light as a single kilogram, despite being a meter long. There generally isn't enough of a difference in weight to make any difference in speed whatsoever. Main 'speed' difference is that the slightly shorter profile of the katana makes it easier to Maneuver in tight quarters, whereas the longsword has farther reaching and easier to make stabs.
@angryasian2 This is simply not true. European longswords generally weigh between 2 and 3lbs in weight. I'm an historical fencing teacher, I have four schools teaching European swordsmanship. I've been studying the art for 20 years and teaching for 9. Vadi, writing in 1480, states that "intelligence surpasses strength" completely debunking the 'heavy swinging' argument. The German Lichtenauer school specifically has advice for dealing with sluggers, who he calls 'buffalo'.
European armour was much, much better than Japanese armour, and the European swords are designed to be thicker, chunkier and blunter so that they can hit hard against good armour without breaking or deforming.
Not better, just different. Both armors do their job really good and both have their pros and cons. There is no "best" in arms and armors because it's all about compromising.
And european swords are NOT thicker than japanese swords. Why do you think they are? For the blunter part, perhaps. Both swords comes in many forms and some european swords will be sharper than some katanas and vice versa. Perhaps the european swords would be blunter on avarage.
No european swordmanuscript tells you that hitting hard agains armor is a good thing. There are however evidence for the opposite, to hit armor hard they had a technique called "mordhau", turn the sword over and hit with the pommel. Why turn the sword over if it's designed to hit hard anyway.
It seems that you still can learn a lot about arms and armor. A quick wiki search would be a good start.
And what do you mean by "European swords"? I supposed you mean european swords in general, but that is a much to broad term if you want to discuss this further, I suppose you don't mean messers, gladiuses, sabers or rapiers. But what exactly do you mean, a one handed arming sword, hand-and-a-half longsword or perhaps a true two-handed sword? Please explain.
@MrOdsplut Wrong. If you're fighting in armour with the sword, you use the thrust to vulnerable areas, such as under the arms, the groin or visor. Or you, more sensibly, use a weapon designed to combat armour, such as a pollaxe.
@kertaspaper94 I guess cutting is done by using percussive force, while slashing is made by dragging the blade across the surface? Or is that slicing? Maybe slashing is a combination of both? Anyway, it's another of those "finesse vs brute force" stuff they try to force on their viewers, even though there is nothing brute about cutting and both swords can slash, slice and cut pretty much equally well. They never mention that katana's blade resembles axe wedge the most...
I'm with Raziel1 here. But as I'm not that good at english I can be wrong. My take on this is that while a cut will always have a little slice in it, it's not something you try to do. In a slash you really try to get a sliceing motion into the strike. This way I see the cut as a faster strike that is easier to redirect and perhaps also with a bit more reach. The slash will on the other hand make a deeper wound.
There's nothing racist about the thinking here, much as people like to get all up in arms about defending the "superiority" of the West or East. We're seeing the History Channel trying to create polar opposites so it's easier for people to swallow. If they admitted the arming sword/longsword/norman sword sword (not a goddamn broadsword) was a weapon of intelligent and tactical use, it would break their little "brawn vs. brains" framing device.
@Ranziel1 Yes it is. stop being a capitalist sucker. it cuts better and faster. before you could even take off your stupid broadsword i riped your head out areadly.
@halfassedfart Umpteen hundred times, and I find them to be just about as infuriatingly ignorant and narrow-sighted as those who argue that any European blade is similarly inherently superior. I find the National Geographic/History Channel often falls into pop-historiography and Deadliest Warrior-like bullshit that actively makes people stupider. Shows like this make people think they can confidently claim one side or the other is correct because "tests" have been done. Vomit-worthy disgrace.
Honestly though, this constant pandering to popular misconceptions with excessive generalizations and simplified soundbites speaks of the contempt in which these channels hold their viewers.
@SenorLukey If you had argued that the sword in the video was actually a broadsword, you'd at least have something to add. You'd still be wrong, but we could've had a discussion, whereas now I'm just left with the impression that you don't know the terms you're throwing around.
@ContradictoryNature I was simply saying that in the video the sword is an arming sword but it isn't wrong to call it a broadsword. (You said it was) A broadsword is a two edged sword. Longswords etc. are also broadswords but are just called "longsword" so the arming sword was always just shortened to broadsword.
@SenorLukey TV and D'n'D have taught you it's okay to call all swords a broadsword. It's still wrong. A "broadsword" is a basket-hilted straight, double-edged sword with a narrow point. Especially popular at the end of the 17th century and remained in use through the 18th and early 19th. The sword in the video might be an Oakeshott Type XI, from ~10th, not a broadsword at all. Broadswords are only "broad" compared to the rapiers of their time. It's a relatively modern word, now used poorly.
One edged swords are also often called broadswords. The common name for the Chinese dao is the "Chinese Broadsword". However, Jian are /not/ called broadswords curiously enough.
If you're talking about historical context, the term "broadsword" was never used to describe one handed or two handed swords before the close of the 16th century. "Arming sword" "Knightly sword", or simply "sword" are better terms for one handed swords.
@japantruthify001 The Korean descendant who went to Japan shared it with everyone as they became Japanese. Japan didn't steal it but ignorant kids and Nationalist claims Koreans did and that is a lie
I suppose theyre for different things, for semi ritualised combat against an enemy in paper armour you want a katana, in a bloody european slogging match you want a weapon that will smash a skull behind plate armour
What absolute bullshit! There are scores of European fighting manuals which show that the warrior class trained from childhood. Vadi, who wrote such a manuscript in around 1480 specifically says that intelligence surpasses strength. Brute force my arse! Again, it's the western trait of self-loathing versus the 'magical' prowess of the Orient. Thankyou Hollywood.
@BloodyCrAzYzzz Why? They are both steel and they are both sharp. How sharp? Doesn't matter. What's important is that any steel - even blunt - against your flesh and bone will fuck up your day. Need to get through armour? Use a pollaxe. The big problem is that people are fixated on sharpness when the reality is that past a certain point, it doesn't really matter.
Very true. In actuality, having Too sharp an edge can cause your blade to break, which is the last thing you want to happen in battle. The sharper the edge, the more brittle, the quicker it will dull and chip and break.
@WitheringintheDark Definately, an over sharpened sword has a wafer thin edge. It excels against flesh, but armour or clashing with a sword its in trouble.
My own hypothesis about that video. Everyone knows katana have a Very hard martensitic edge, and an extremely soft, practically iron spine. EU blades generally possess a uniform hardness, and if diff. tempered swords don't vary as drastically as katana.
With the katana, if a strike chips through the hard edge to the soft core, the blade will bend back at that break, as the hard edge is no longer present for it to retain it's shape, thus the soft spine bends
My own hypothesis about that video. Everyone knows katana have a Very hard martensitic edge, and an extremely soft, practically iron spine. EU blades generally possess a uniform hardness, and if diff. tempered swords don't vary as drastically as katana.
With the katana, if a strike chips through the hard edge to the soft core, the blade will bend back at that break, as the hard edge is no longer present for it to retain it's shape, thus the soft spine bends
@hotspurschool Even tho the katana is sharper then the broadsword. I think the key factor to win a fight is speed & timing. With a broadsword u have to unsheat ur sword and get into position to make a strike. With a katana you do both in one movement + the katana is alot lighter wich wil give u more speed and with that u wont get out of balance when u use to much strength.
Actually the broadsword isn't heavier at all, thus the speed is nigh identical, these guys are just amatuers is all. You can also cut from the scabbard with an arming sword:
/watch?v=FQeTwRVKq7o
Note, that is a one-handed arming sword(this is the correct term, not 'broadsword'), not a longsword, which cannot cut from the scabbard, but has other benefits.
The use of multiple forms of steel in a single sword blade is pretty common throughout the world. Europeans were using such techniques hundreds of years earlier than the Japanese.
A katana cannot cut "Through" damascus steel; there is literally no evidence to this point.
Eh, katana can't even cut through the crappiest modern steel unless its struck on a paper thin edge. It won't do jack to the flat of a steel plate and even a 1mm thick edge will stop it.
@hotspurschool I'm afraid that sharpness is a little more complicated then that. The power that you put in a blade strike depends of how sharp your blade is. That determinates how many times you will be able to repeat that cutting moviment, or similar cutting moviments, and still don't give up on your guard.
So yeah, sharpness is important. How do I know? I practice Kenjustu for 3 years now in a gym.
@hotspurschool you're missing the point. the factor here is the speed at which one can swing the katana, not the overall ability to cut. that ability also factors into how you can use it. you can try to guard your neck, but it don't mean you can. :3
@ShadowNinjaMaster93 I doubt he is missing the point - Arming swords (broadswords is bad terminology) are not brute force weapons, but it is being used that way here, which is misleading. No one needs to use swings that big.
Ian Bottomley, the historian in this video, seems to know a lot on Japanese history from his stuff I have read, but he does a lot of blind comparisons - where he compares something without doing research on the other side.
@AltruisticAlbatross Cheers! I'm a teacher of historical fencing, mainly focused on longsword, dagger, pollaxe and spear of the German and Italian 15th/16th century traditions. Almost all videos of this type - i.e History Channel - are just plain wrong. They simply ignore the European sources, of which there are HUNDREDS.
@hotspurschool Exatly! What most people don't know is that European martial arts were as deep and complex as their oriental conter-parts. Unfortunatly that knowledge was lost in time, as opposed to oriental ones that were a little more preserved due orient isolation and lack of contact with fire arms during Tokugawa Era. I recommend the documentary "Reclaming the Blade" for every one that wants to learn more about western sword, fighting, forging and meaning.
@hotspurschool I agree that they left out the ideals of european martial arts where you use every part of your weapon and body as opposed to only using the blade... but there is something to be said of the kind of force used behind broadswords.. my favorite is the claymore and you should know that a number of attacks with broadswords involve hard hitting swings to break bone and break other swords if need be.. that's why they are dual edged so even though they're not as fast as
@hotspurschool katana's are.. they can come back on the upswing without changing the direction of your hands.. but more important is the spine of broadswords.. katanas are very sharp and very solid and light where as broadswords are heavy, weighted, and somewhat flexible. the reason behind the flex.. binding.. katanas don't really bind and when you block with it you notch the blade taking away not only from it's sharpness.. but it's integrity, like that greek saying a
@hotspurschool "Tree that does not bend before the wind will surely break" most european swords were made with battles in mind. the spine of the broadsword is tempered in a way similar to rebar used in building structure..flexible yet durable.. this meant that when binding you had less chance of your sword breaking if you caught the enemy blade with the spine of your sword and slid it to the bottom and swiped it away. katanas are not very flexible and not meant to block the enemy
@Ruckusrocket The ninjato is a holywood prop... All they did was take the general design of a wakizashi, and make it streight... I fail to see how thats "better"...
The big problem is that while katana swordplay is still widely practiced and understood, Western swordplay is kind of a lost art. If European swordsmanship had schools and masters like Japanese swordsmanship, we wouldn't have this katana-wank fan culture.
I'll give katanas this: They have unbelievable cutting power against an unarmored target, and kenjutsu duels look really fucking cool.
@enoughtalkhaveatyou This video and pretty much every similar video makes the mistake of taking a master of the katana and putting him up against some wild-armed jackass they found at the renaissance fair. Did you see the way he fucking swung that sword?
They do have schools. Try The Iron Door Studio, for one. And while there are no 'masters' yet(still being rediscovered) there are experts in the field. Many have a background in JMA, which helps in properly implementing translated techniques from the texts. HEMA and JMA have alot in common, swords being swords and humans being humans, most of the differences lie in how each weapons unique attributes are utilized.
@enoughtalkhaveatyou: Have you heard about ARMA AND HEMA? They teach a lot of european swordmanship, and believe me, they're really cool. Take a look on my channel if you want to see some of their stuff.
A modern scalpel is the finest cutting blade (in the description)? Please. A standard razor blade has a far better edge. Brute strength statement is another eye roller. I guess for thousands of years we European monkeys could barely garner enough skill to throw rocks and sticks at each other. It's crap like this video that totally turn me off the Katana. I can't even appreciate what it really is because of all the overblown hype people foist on it.
@damnonii i agree, even though i prefer a katana, i love european swords just as the rapier and longsword. but i never forget such blades as the scimitar and kukri, which are often overshadowed by blades such of feudal times (both europe and japan)
@coolchillice Thank you for being an appreciator instead of raving fanboy. I've heard Katana this and that since I became interested in swords 35 years ago, I am so tired of it. :) . If family history/rumor is correct we have had several ancestors that fought, lived, and died by the sword, that is more interesting to me than what happened in feudal Japan. Lol! Peace man.
@damnonii well the sometimes i with people would stop comparing blades as well and keep calling the katana the strongest blade because of its pop culture. i mean katanas are pretty decent and effective but shouldn't be compared with western blades because these blade differ in philosophy and purpose. both eastern and western styles need the same amount of training to master
@pyr666 Neat. I'll look 'em up. Our hospitals out here in the boonies just use the standard stainless or disposables, never seen diamond or obsidian. A good quality razor blade is in the individual molecule range as well. I like the idea of a modern obsidian scalpel, that's cool as hell.
they could have at least go someone who knows how to wield a Western sword, I've seen this cutting test done by experts of both, there was not much difference in speed or precession.
@olelumpy There is some of that, since the broadness increased the mass behind the edge without increasing the thickness of the blade being forced through the armour. On the other hand, as armour improved sword designs became less broad and more tapered to combat armour.
Also samurai armour was quite protective, they used mail (kusari), coats-of-plates (okegawa or yukinoshita do). There tended to be larger gaps in it though.
er, yes. japan has imported much of its raw metals throughout the ages, and attacked china over such natural resources repeatedly.
hell, the reason japan attacked america in WW2 is because we stopped trading with them.
i should point out I said "comparatively", which is true. and even in the west, softer metals were often used despite iron's availability because it was still fairly rare.
@pyr666 A few sources I can recommend mentioning mass-produced munitions armours in Japan (referred to as okashi-do) are "The Evolution of Japanese Armour" at 'myarmoury' website & also in the Royal Armouries book "Introduction to Japanese Armour". Those are what lead me to believe metal armour was not as rare in Japan as is often suggested.
Neither sword could snap the other under normal combat conditions. There is a vid of a longsword breaking another longsword though(a katana used previously broke on the other sword) But that sword was rigidly held in place, struck perpendicularly on the edge on a heavy downward strike. Swords arn't used like that, and it was just as likely that the striking sword would have broken.
In both cases the swords had Very deep notches cut into them.
@miganders If both swords struck edge-on-edge hard both blades would suffer large gouges. Due to the differential hardening in the katana a large gouge in the edge could cause the blade to warp (the edge is important for holding the shape together).
/watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s#t=5m55s
I should note the conditions in that video would be very rare in actual combat, normally there is too much give or deflection in combat for either sword to break easily.
@miganders As a side note, the term broadsword in this video is incorrect. It really refers to a much later style of sword (normally with a basket-hilt). The sword in this video is an arming sword, which is no heavier than katana, and the only reason it appears slower is because the guy swinging it has no idea what he is doing.
Due to design the katana is a bit more likely to break though. Since the spine is so soft, if a notch is cut all the way through the very hard edge the blade will bend back on itself.
With two hardened edges, or of a more uniform hardness, doubled-edged less-hard western style swords are less prone to this kind of break and more durable in general.
The vid i mentioned: /watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s
Mythbusters did a special on this as well; only the rapier snapped when struck.
@WitheringintheDark And the rapier actually snapped when springing back, which would happen very rarely in actual combat, since you parry with the base of the blade and the actual sword isn't fixed in a vice. As far as I'm aware, rapiers would usually break when used for cutting improperly.
He's right. European swords weren't crafted in the same way. European swords were superior because their steel technology was superior. By the time Europeans showed up in Japan, European steel technology progressed to a point where folding the steel repeatedly simply wasn't necessary. And if they want to talk up Japanese steel folding as so supposedly "advanced", well then, guess what? The Celts were already doing that in 700 BC; a full 1,600 years BEFORE the Japanese ever did so.
It's also important to keep in mind that the Europeans also didn't adopt the weaponary of their opponent. So apparently they also viewed their opponents weaponary as inferior. But in reality, it was the Japanese who gained more from this encounter than the Europeans. The Japanese were apparently impressed enough with European plate armor that they adopted it. They also adopted their firearms. So who really had the better kit?
"a one handed broadsword vs a 2 handed katana? Really?
A longsword would have been a more fair comparison."
Sure, I agree with you. But I can see one point in doing arming sword vs katana. The arming sword is about the same lenght as the katana. So while a LS would be of about the same weight and nearly the same purpose, it's not the same lenght.
A Kriegsmesser would be an even more fair comparison than with a LS I think.
I miss weeaboos.... *sniff*
But honestly I like japanophiles! Really! But only those who are not supporting their japanophilia by talking down other cultures. Most of the "good ones" are really suprised and intrigued when taught about european Middle Ages how it really was aside all the romantic myths and movies. And I equally dislike any kind of "supremacists", be it Knight, Samurai, Islam or Mormon supremacy.
Protherium 21 hours ago
It's sort of sad that random youtube comments are more historically accurate than the history channel. I especially like the cut off point -- Where we are supposed to believe that Samurai refused to wear armor and were equipped with only the Katana.
IlluminaZero 5 days ago
@IlluminaZero
Kinda sad, I guess, but encouraging as well. Means less and less are believing the media bullshit and researching things for themselves.
WitheringintheDark 5 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
/watch?v=N8Xg_C2YmG0
ACTA - Worse then SOPA/PIPA
How to beat and bypass SOPA/PIPA/ACTA & H.R.1981 and Googles new invasive privacy policy starting March 1st
randomaccesstalk.blogspot.com
Share and Thumbs Up. Spread the word
DreadnaughtMaster 5 days ago
the thing i found impressive about the katana was the speed. The katana managed 3 cuts in the time it took the broadsword to do one, and the broadsword wielder was slightly off balance after the second cut
gunfighter964 6 days ago
@gunfighter964 To be fair, the guy with the "broadsword" (bad terminology) doesn't know what he is doing. No one needs to make swings that big. For comparison, look at this - /watch?v=FQeTwRVKq7o - AT1557CuttingFromScabbard on ShooterMikeSBG Youtube Channel.
Railstarfish 6 days ago
@gunfighter964
Yeah, it's a display of skill in which the less skilled wielder of the knightly sword lost. It could also be a poorly balanced reproduction sword. It's somewhat difficult to get accurate, balanced reproductions of european swords due to decades of misconceptions about them as well as manufacturers looking to cut costs and pander to misinformed customers.
Railstar's video is a good demonstration of capability and skill.
WitheringintheDark 5 days ago
A well made broadsword or longsword will always be superior to a katana. A katana wouldn't be a very good weapon to have on an European battlefield, it's cutting power would be outmatched by anything above and including chainmail, and it's not as good a piercing weapon as the European swords, on the other hand a European sword would do just fine in Japan. Katanas are actually pretty brittle. You're not supposed to parry or deflect blows with your sword, which is not true for the European ones.
DeathtoRaiden1 6 days ago
@DeathtoRaiden1
Katana can deflect blows with the flat of the blade or catch them on the thick spine as easily as any european sword can. Such can be seen from examples of historic katana that have been in battle, showcasing slight scratches on the flat and by the handguard and small nicks on the spine . Of course, outright avoidance or counter-attacking was preferred in both cases.
WitheringintheDark 5 days ago
@DeathtoRaiden1
You are correct that it cannot cut through riveted mail, but neither can knightly swords. However, some knightly blades had tips fine enough to pierce Through the links in the mail, whereas the broad, cutting optimized katana tip generally cannot.
You also can't halfsword a katana like you can a longsword, nor is the pommel as heavy and weaponized, and the LS larger crossguard is better for defensive measures such as tripping, trapping, binding, ect.
WitheringintheDark 5 days ago
@DeathtoRaiden1
The katana is roughly similar to the widely used 'messer' singled-edged curved sword in europe(or sabers for that matter). It would be a nightmare for the standard infantryman that did not possess a complete suit of mail or better, parting through leather and flesh easily.
It is perfect for unarmored civilian duels and ambushes in constricted urban areas as well, with the iaido strike.
And yes, a LS would do just fine in Japan, with training.
WitheringintheDark 5 days ago
Today I learned that the best kind of sword is a gun.
lucasducasguitar 1 week ago
Hmm, the katana may be sharper, faster and lighter but the european sword comes with by far the coolest hat.
LokarMD 1 week ago
@LokarMD Not actually lighter, both swords weigh from around 2-3 lbs, usually closer to 2. The speed difference in this video is mostly due to using unnecessarily large swings - compare with the video AT1557CuttingFromScabbard on ShooterMikeSBG channel.
But we all know the hat is the ultimate advantage. ;)
Railstarfish 1 week ago
hmm... I want scalpel sword
ShitCrap 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"It's like with pistols, assault rifles etc. people just call them guns."
Exactly, and I think you agree that saying something like:
"What do you rather have, a .44 Magnum Colt Anaconda revolver or a gun?"
People will go:
Gun? What do you mean by gun?
(I know, not the best example :) but I hope you'll get my point.)
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
Comment removed
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
The katana was the superior weapon, I studied them briefly in my engineering studies on materials, the katana used a unique smithing method that made them both stronger and more shock absorbent, meaning they stayed sharper longer and could take more damage while still being lighter.
EvilBakaCat 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat 1 - Katana smithing method was not unique. Piling, pattern-welding, differential hardening was common in other cultures, who had been using the same techniques way earlier than the Japanese (before replacing those techniques with something better).
2 - Katana were not lighter unless than other swords of the same length. Tsurugi Bashi Kendo Kai openly acknowledges this.
Railstarfish 1 week ago
@Railstarfish for size not in total, and god my text books must be outdated then -.- cos they said it was unique, hate public education system
EvilBakaCat 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat Sorry, I made a mistake in my last comment. I was thinking 2 sentences at once and got them crossed when typing it out. It meant either...
Not lighter than other swords of the same length.
Not lighter unless the other sword is larger.
My apologies for the confusion. That said, they are still beautiful swords.
Railstarfish 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
The only unique aspect AFAIK was how japanese heat treated their blades. They used differential hardening via clay to control the rate of cooling, and it is this which produces the curve and gives a very hard edge and softer spine.
Elsewhere most cultures would slack quench the blade in oil, creating a blade of medium-high hardness, or a hard quench followed by tempering, which yields a hard edge, soft core and great durability.
WitheringintheDark 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
Ahh, second note. The other semi-unique aspect was the smelting process. They smelted the black, ferrous sands of the Japanese beaches to produce low-grade iron/steel(which was forged folded until impurities were worked out and it was usable)
Kinda similar to how the vikings would smelt peat from peat bogs, which naturally contained 'bog' iron due to bacterial concentration of water-borne iron coming off the mountain streams.
WitheringintheDark 1 week ago
@WitheringintheDark ahhh ok thanks. So other nations used the same cooling technique that made the blade have a strong and brittle skin but a shock absorbing under layer?
EvilBakaCat 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
More or less. I know of no other culture off the top of my head that used clay for diff. hardening like the japanese did. China and europe largely treated them in similar ways, sharpened the swords in similar ways too.
In general, mainland swords weren't quite as hard and brittle as japanese ones, making them more durable and slightly more flexible at the expense of some edge-retention ability.
WitheringintheDark 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
Slack or oil quenching was one of the cheapest, quickest, and easiest to do, yielding a blade around 500-600vph all the way through, making a flexible, durable cutting blade capable of holding a pretty sharp edge that can withstand impact. The chinese and others would use the 'swallow' method of quenching to harden just the edge and tip by dipping it in flat and edge first and then resurfacing.
WitheringintheDark 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
Tempering was much harder and riskier, but gives you greater control over the blades hardness then clay hardening as you can use the color of the heated steel to judge the hardness when quenched; edges of over 700vph with cores below 200vph are achievable, comparing well with katana, which usually have an edge around 800vph and a core below 200.
WitheringintheDark 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
From what i've seen it seems european blades followed a similar sharpening maxim to the chinese; ‘three feet long, one inch kills’.
The ricasso or base is edged but not sharpened, as it was used for defensive measures and maintaining the blade’s overall strength.
The middle was not extremely sharp, but still sharp enough to cut and retain the blade’s strength.
The tip section however, was kept razor sharp as it was considered the ‘business end’ of the weapon.
WitheringintheDark 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
In addition to protherium's link, you should find the google books preview of Alan Williams The Knight and the Blast Furnace. Even the preview covers alot about medieval forging and smithing methods, as well as armor and sword hardness and thickness, as well as the history behind it.
WitheringintheDark 1 week ago
@WitheringintheDark danke :}
EvilBakaCat 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
Just like I said, the whole method is unique, but not the particular steps like folding, laminating and clay-based hardening.
Take a european Knightly sword of appr.1100 AD. They were folded up to 10 times, check. Piled construction of steel and iron, check. But then, they make a full quench and annealing, differential hardness would eventually have been achieved through selective heating - edge hotter than the rest, if quenched edge gets much harder.
Protherium 1 week ago
@Protherium
A very good article:
-- ht*tp:/*/ww*w.myarmoury.c*om/feature_bladehardness.h*tml (Remove inserted stars)
Extensive research (Williams, Emmerling, Neumann, Mäder) has revealed that medieval swords were not uniform in their hardness like modern steel blades, the most hard parts were the edges and the point. But there is absolutely no proof of clay hardening in Europe, the results may be similar but the process was different.
Protherium 1 week ago
@EvilBakaCat
"the katana used a unique smithing method"
The forging process, refining (folding) lamination and selective hardening are in principle not unique to Japan, Persian and Celtic smiths used all of them 1,5 millenia earlier. But what is unique is the combination of these - japanese sword is the only known sword which 1). used very extensive folding 2). selective hardening using clay coating, which also gives the sword its curvature.
Protherium 1 week ago
the real question is who looks more badass while doing it
Bab8s 1 week ago
2 of my favorite weapons in dead rising
asddsdsssd 1 week ago
some of u are so stupid the katana was a small in with but was smelted so many time the steel was verry strong and not having a blade on the back was better the back is like an ax and gives it power without brute strength and u can clearly see its faster u can get out 2 swings at the time the broadsword gets out 1 katana is the best sword in the world
stoner4l6 1 week ago
@stoner4l6 LoL. People like you is the very reason I stopped arguing against all this. Sure, buddy. Swords can cut like axes. Actually, if you sharpen a crayon from just one side it will cut like an axe too. True story.
Ranziel1 1 week ago
@stoner4l6 You can clearly see he uses needlessly large swings with the arming sword (broadsword is a wrong term). Katana weren't smelted, because smelting sucks for sword design.
Claiming there is a best sword in the world shows a profound misunderstanding of how swords were designed and used.
Railstarfish 1 week ago
@Railstarfish arming sword is a broadsword.
SenorLukey 1 week ago
@SenorLukey
Yes and so is the longsword, the zweihander and the chinese dao. But mostly it's the name of the late basket-hilted sword as a description that it's not as thin as the rapier.
Why call anything a broadsword if there isn't a sword in that time that are less broad. To call an arming sword a broadsword only cause confusion. But sure, it's not really wrong to call it that, but the arming sword has got that name for no good reason imo.
gurkfisk89 1 week ago
It might interest you all to know that complex tempering and blade manufacture was in use in northern England in the 6th century, based on the evidence of a find at Bamburgh Castle of a sword pattern welded from five bars of steel. Extremely sharp, extremely durable. That predates Japanese smithing techniques by seven centuries.
hotspurschool 2 weeks ago
crappy shitvideo that doesnt proof anything ... the only reason to use a katana is because a person feels like a child becoming a "ninja samurai master" yaaaay how cute. it is only one edged - fail, it has a nearly useless crossguard - fail, it has no metal pommel - fail, it is only slightly sharper than a longsword but of about same weight and much easier to break - fail. the only thing where a katana really shines surprisingly is thrusting through plate armor cause the blade almost doesnt bend
godmode86 2 weeks ago
@godmode86 you dont know anything about katana, do you? -_-" what is your reference to a katana? hollywood? the mall? get your facts straight before you fail post like that.
ShadowNinjaMaster93 2 weeks ago
@ShadowNinjaMaster93 more than you it seems.
godmode86 2 weeks ago
@godmode86 they only needed one edge to the blade. why would you ever need to use both edges? the katanas were made out of only the best steels and were made by folding the steel many many times until it was as long and thin as it is making it extremely strong. katanas are 1000 times harder to break than those broad swords that are poured into molds to make which make them fragile
wasbro1 2 weeks ago
@wasbro1 You don't have the first idea about bladesmithing, do you? You're just repeating the same old tired bullshit. All swords are TEMPERED from a steel bar (or many, if you are pattern-welding). European swords are made in the same way as Japanese ones. This bollocks about 'thousands' of folds is a MYTH.
hotspurschool 2 weeks ago
@wasbro1 No medieval sword was poured into a mould. It was not how they were made. They were forged instead. Early European swords were made with piling or pattern-welding (essentially versions of folding the steel) until improvements in their metalworking made it unnecessary. Folding only helps if you are working with primitive steel.
Two edges gives you more angles to cut from. They are quite subtle techniques but they work great.
Railstarfish 2 weeks ago
@wasbro1 i thought a katana is a weapon you use intelligent and not with brute barbarian force like a european sword... so how come you cannot think of how you make use if two edges + crossguard + pommel in a fight. katanas have a hard edge and a soft back. once the edge breaks (and it in fact breaks pretty good since its only a few mm strong) the rest of the weapon deforms easily and is rendered nearly useless while a european sword does not fucking care about a notch in its edge.
godmode86 2 weeks ago
@godmode86
"...and not with brute barbarian force like a european sword..."
Medieval fencing masters calls this kind of people buffalos or peasant, trained swordsmen didn't fight like this. This is why many of the surviving fencing manuscripts from medieval times talks about things like that the art always is more important than strength.
gurkfisk89 2 weeks ago
yeah thanks for the info -.-'
godmode86 2 weeks ago
Cutting is only one factor. What about the thrust? What about weapons designed to punch through armour, such as the pollaxe or spear? There's a certain blindness about this 'which sword is best' argument. There are so many different factors to take into account. But one thing remains true. Steel - sharp or blunt - against skin and bone will win every time.
hotspurschool 2 weeks ago
Good to see someone who can actually swing a Katana.
Most videos I find people used them like baseball bats.. --
UnforgivenRaiden 2 weeks ago
@UnforgivenRaiden lol in that case i haven't been wasting my time with self-teaching myself kendo. (although i still suck >.<)
ShadowNinjaMaster93 2 weeks ago
this comparison is bad, the western sword was made to cut through heavy armor, while the katana was slicing , the jap armor is wayy weaker, is just 2 different design
another505 2 weeks ago
@TheCheopps im guessing sarcasm but i dont even...
volarion 3 weeks ago
I love katanas. Just the sharpness and how you cant shave with them or you lose your lower jaw
arandomuserguy 3 weeks ago
@angryasian2 wrong a longsword generally weighs only .5 lb more than a katana and are just as fast
volarion 3 weeks ago
@hotspurschool I don't think the meant to imply that broadswords required less skill but a hand and a half sword is generally not going to be as quick as a katana. Euro swords require more strength and that probably because western soldiers were much larger, a katana is smaller and lighter while still maintaining strength and cutting power which is part of why people like them so much they're just friendlier to handle. I'm half German and half japanese so no cultural bias
angryasian2 3 weeks ago
@angryasian2
Theres katanas as heavy as 3.5lbs or more and longswords as light as a single kilogram, despite being a meter long. There generally isn't enough of a difference in weight to make any difference in speed whatsoever. Main 'speed' difference is that the slightly shorter profile of the katana makes it easier to Maneuver in tight quarters, whereas the longsword has farther reaching and easier to make stabs.
WitheringintheDark 3 weeks ago
@angryasian2 This is simply not true. European longswords generally weigh between 2 and 3lbs in weight. I'm an historical fencing teacher, I have four schools teaching European swordsmanship. I've been studying the art for 20 years and teaching for 9. Vadi, writing in 1480, states that "intelligence surpasses strength" completely debunking the 'heavy swinging' argument. The German Lichtenauer school specifically has advice for dealing with sluggers, who he calls 'buffalo'.
hotspurschool 2 weeks ago
European armour was much, much better than Japanese armour, and the European swords are designed to be thicker, chunkier and blunter so that they can hit hard against good armour without breaking or deforming.
MrOdsplut 3 weeks ago
@MrOdsplut
Not better, just different. Both armors do their job really good and both have their pros and cons. There is no "best" in arms and armors because it's all about compromising.
And european swords are NOT thicker than japanese swords. Why do you think they are? For the blunter part, perhaps. Both swords comes in many forms and some european swords will be sharper than some katanas and vice versa. Perhaps the european swords would be blunter on avarage.
gurkfisk89 3 weeks ago
@MrOdsplut
No european swordmanuscript tells you that hitting hard agains armor is a good thing. There are however evidence for the opposite, to hit armor hard they had a technique called "mordhau", turn the sword over and hit with the pommel. Why turn the sword over if it's designed to hit hard anyway.
It seems that you still can learn a lot about arms and armor. A quick wiki search would be a good start.
gurkfisk89 3 weeks ago
@MrOdsplut
And what do you mean by "European swords"? I supposed you mean european swords in general, but that is a much to broad term if you want to discuss this further, I suppose you don't mean messers, gladiuses, sabers or rapiers. But what exactly do you mean, a one handed arming sword, hand-and-a-half longsword or perhaps a true two-handed sword? Please explain.
gurkfisk89 3 weeks ago
@gurkfisk89 chill dude i'm just making this shit up
MrOdsplut 3 weeks ago 6
@MrOdsplut
OK, I'm cool. When you make shit up you can be sure someone will correct you sooner or later.
gurkfisk89 3 weeks ago
@MrOdsplut Wrong. If you're fighting in armour with the sword, you use the thrust to vulnerable areas, such as under the arms, the groin or visor. Or you, more sensibly, use a weapon designed to combat armour, such as a pollaxe.
hotspurschool 2 weeks ago
I love that ending: "[But we have guns now, so none of this matters.]" :P
Tripicality 1 month ago
magnificent blade
TheRgs1987 1 month ago
What's the difference between cutting and slashing ?
kertaspaper94 1 month ago
@kertaspaper94 I guess cutting is done by using percussive force, while slashing is made by dragging the blade across the surface? Or is that slicing? Maybe slashing is a combination of both? Anyway, it's another of those "finesse vs brute force" stuff they try to force on their viewers, even though there is nothing brute about cutting and both swords can slash, slice and cut pretty much equally well. They never mention that katana's blade resembles axe wedge the most...
Ranziel1 1 month ago
@kertaspaper94 cutting deals with strenghth slashing deals with speed and persice hit in a second.
yondaime1964 1 month ago
@kertaspaper94
I'm with Raziel1 here. But as I'm not that good at english I can be wrong. My take on this is that while a cut will always have a little slice in it, it's not something you try to do. In a slash you really try to get a sliceing motion into the strike. This way I see the cut as a faster strike that is easier to redirect and perhaps also with a bit more reach. The slash will on the other hand make a deeper wound.
gurkfisk89 1 month ago
y is that guy wereing a turbin
webmaster1232 1 month ago
There's nothing racist about the thinking here, much as people like to get all up in arms about defending the "superiority" of the West or East. We're seeing the History Channel trying to create polar opposites so it's easier for people to swallow. If they admitted the arming sword/longsword/norman sword sword (not a goddamn broadsword) was a weapon of intelligent and tactical use, it would break their little "brawn vs. brains" framing device.
ContradictoryNature 1 month ago 6
@ContradictoryNature Katana is better.
CriadorDeCriaturas 2 weeks ago
@CriadorDeCriaturas No.
Ranziel1 2 weeks ago
@Ranziel1 Yes it is. stop being a capitalist sucker. it cuts better and faster. before you could even take off your stupid broadsword i riped your head out areadly.
CriadorDeCriaturas 2 weeks ago
@CriadorDeCriaturas Cool story, you shintoist pig.
Ranziel1 2 weeks ago
@CriadorDeCriaturas Obvious troll, etc.
ContradictoryNature 2 weeks ago
@ContradictoryNature I take it you have never argued with Japanese or Korean nationalist-chauvinists.
halfassedfart 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
ContradictoryNature 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@halfassedfart Umpteen hundred times, and I find them to be just about as infuriatingly ignorant and narrow-sighted as those who argue that any European blade is similarly inherently superior. I find the National Geographic/History Channel often falls into pop-historiography and Deadliest Warrior-like bullshit that actively makes people stupider. Shows like this make people think they can confidently claim one side or the other is correct because "tests" have been done. Vomit-worthy disgrace.
ContradictoryNature 2 weeks ago
@ContradictoryNature Yup
CriadorDeCriaturas 2 weeks ago
@ContradictoryNature hurngh durghhh binary choice
Honestly though, this constant pandering to popular misconceptions with excessive generalizations and simplified soundbites speaks of the contempt in which these channels hold their viewers.
halfassedfart 2 weeks ago
@ContradictoryNature The arming sword is a broadsword.
SenorLukey 1 week ago
@SenorLukey If you had argued that the sword in the video was actually a broadsword, you'd at least have something to add. You'd still be wrong, but we could've had a discussion, whereas now I'm just left with the impression that you don't know the terms you're throwing around.
ContradictoryNature 1 week ago
@ContradictoryNature I was simply saying that in the video the sword is an arming sword but it isn't wrong to call it a broadsword. (You said it was) A broadsword is a two edged sword. Longswords etc. are also broadswords but are just called "longsword" so the arming sword was always just shortened to broadsword.
SenorLukey 1 week ago
@SenorLukey TV and D'n'D have taught you it's okay to call all swords a broadsword. It's still wrong. A "broadsword" is a basket-hilted straight, double-edged sword with a narrow point. Especially popular at the end of the 17th century and remained in use through the 18th and early 19th. The sword in the video might be an Oakeshott Type XI, from ~10th, not a broadsword at all. Broadswords are only "broad" compared to the rapiers of their time. It's a relatively modern word, now used poorly.
ContradictoryNature 1 week ago
@SenorLukey
One edged swords are also often called broadswords. The common name for the Chinese dao is the "Chinese Broadsword". However, Jian are /not/ called broadswords curiously enough.
If you're talking about historical context, the term "broadsword" was never used to describe one handed or two handed swords before the close of the 16th century. "Arming sword" "Knightly sword", or simply "sword" are better terms for one handed swords.
HereTheArtBegins 1 week ago
japan copied the korean sword. "Katanas" are just korean jingums
japantruthify001 1 month ago
@japantruthify001 Fuck off, you chauvinist scumbag. Go get butthurt over your nation's irrelevance somewhere else.
halfassedfart 1 month ago
@japantruthify001 The Korean descendant who went to Japan shared it with everyone as they became Japanese. Japan didn't steal it but ignorant kids and Nationalist claims Koreans did and that is a lie
CriadorDeCriaturas 2 weeks ago
Another pre-secondary school version of history put out on TV to fulfill the infinite demand for 24/7/365 content. Just garbage.
lebarosky 1 month ago
I suppose theyre for different things, for semi ritualised combat against an enemy in paper armour you want a katana, in a bloody european slogging match you want a weapon that will smash a skull behind plate armour
trotskychu 1 month ago
What absolute bullshit! There are scores of European fighting manuals which show that the warrior class trained from childhood. Vadi, who wrote such a manuscript in around 1480 specifically says that intelligence surpasses strength. Brute force my arse! Again, it's the western trait of self-loathing versus the 'magical' prowess of the Orient. Thankyou Hollywood.
hotspurschool 1 month ago 43
@hotspurschool U can say what u wanna but im pretty sure that the katana is still a beter sword then the broadsword
BloodyCrAzYzzz 1 month ago
@BloodyCrAzYzzz Why? They are both steel and they are both sharp. How sharp? Doesn't matter. What's important is that any steel - even blunt - against your flesh and bone will fuck up your day. Need to get through armour? Use a pollaxe. The big problem is that people are fixated on sharpness when the reality is that past a certain point, it doesn't really matter.
hotspurschool 1 month ago 14
@hotspurschool
Very true. In actuality, having Too sharp an edge can cause your blade to break, which is the last thing you want to happen in battle. The sharper the edge, the more brittle, the quicker it will dull and chip and break.
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@WitheringintheDark Definately, an over sharpened sword has a wafer thin edge. It excels against flesh, but armour or clashing with a sword its in trouble.
DamienNeverwinter 1 month ago
@DamienNeverwinter
My own hypothesis about that video. Everyone knows katana have a Very hard martensitic edge, and an extremely soft, practically iron spine. EU blades generally possess a uniform hardness, and if diff. tempered swords don't vary as drastically as katana.
With the katana, if a strike chips through the hard edge to the soft core, the blade will bend back at that break, as the hard edge is no longer present for it to retain it's shape, thus the soft spine bends
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DamienNeverwinter
My own hypothesis about that video. Everyone knows katana have a Very hard martensitic edge, and an extremely soft, practically iron spine. EU blades generally possess a uniform hardness, and if diff. tempered swords don't vary as drastically as katana.
With the katana, if a strike chips through the hard edge to the soft core, the blade will bend back at that break, as the hard edge is no longer present for it to retain it's shape, thus the soft spine bends
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@DamienNeverwinter You wouldn't block a sword with the edge of the katana.
Th33k 1 month ago
@hotspurschool Even tho the katana is sharper then the broadsword. I think the key factor to win a fight is speed & timing. With a broadsword u have to unsheat ur sword and get into position to make a strike. With a katana you do both in one movement + the katana is alot lighter wich wil give u more speed and with that u wont get out of balance when u use to much strength.
BloodyCrAzYzzz 1 month ago
@BloodyCrAzYzzz
Actually the broadsword isn't heavier at all, thus the speed is nigh identical, these guys are just amatuers is all. You can also cut from the scabbard with an arming sword:
/watch?v=FQeTwRVKq7o
Note, that is a one-handed arming sword(this is the correct term, not 'broadsword'), not a longsword, which cannot cut from the scabbard, but has other benefits.
Arming swords were generally 2-3lbs.
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@BloodyCrAzYzzz Oh for fuck's sake. Who the fuck walks into a fight with his sword in his scabbard?
halfassedfart 1 month ago
@halfassedfart Its still a good feat no mather how u look at it
BloodyCrAzYzzz 1 month ago
@hotspurschool You are forgetting something!
Katana is acrualy at least 2 steels combined together! it can cut thro an damaskusś steel! but the edge is wery brittle..
TheCheopps 3 weeks ago
@TheCheopps
The use of multiple forms of steel in a single sword blade is pretty common throughout the world. Europeans were using such techniques hundreds of years earlier than the Japanese.
A katana cannot cut "Through" damascus steel; there is literally no evidence to this point.
HereTheArtBegins 3 weeks ago
@TheCheopps
Eh, katana can't even cut through the crappiest modern steel unless its struck on a paper thin edge. It won't do jack to the flat of a steel plate and even a 1mm thick edge will stop it.
WitheringintheDark 3 weeks ago
@hotspurschool katana's are always gonna be better theyre lighter and sharper? not just sharper but alot lighter?
alramd 2 weeks ago
@alramd They're neither sharper nor lighter. And there is much more to swords than those two factors.
Ranziel1 2 weeks ago
@alramd No, they're not. I've handled original medieval longswords which weigh little over 2lbs. If anything, they're lighter than a katana.
hotspurschool 2 weeks ago
@hotspurschool I'm afraid that sharpness is a little more complicated then that. The power that you put in a blade strike depends of how sharp your blade is. That determinates how many times you will be able to repeat that cutting moviment, or similar cutting moviments, and still don't give up on your guard.
So yeah, sharpness is important. How do I know? I practice Kenjustu for 3 years now in a gym.
LeandroValentine 2 weeks ago
@hotspurschool you're missing the point. the factor here is the speed at which one can swing the katana, not the overall ability to cut. that ability also factors into how you can use it. you can try to guard your neck, but it don't mean you can. :3
ShadowNinjaMaster93 2 weeks ago
@ShadowNinjaMaster93 I doubt he is missing the point - Arming swords (broadswords is bad terminology) are not brute force weapons, but it is being used that way here, which is misleading. No one needs to use swings that big.
Ian Bottomley, the historian in this video, seems to know a lot on Japanese history from his stuff I have read, but he does a lot of blind comparisons - where he compares something without doing research on the other side.
Railstarfish 2 weeks ago
@ShadowNinjaMaster93 That's absolute balls. You do not 'swing' a cut. Speed is important, but good body mechanics and efficiency are master.
hotspurschool 2 weeks ago
@hotspurschool I totally agree.
MrOdsplut 1 month ago
@hotspurschool a man with such sense deserves both top comment slots.
AltruisticAlbatross 4 weeks ago
@AltruisticAlbatross Cheers! I'm a teacher of historical fencing, mainly focused on longsword, dagger, pollaxe and spear of the German and Italian 15th/16th century traditions. Almost all videos of this type - i.e History Channel - are just plain wrong. They simply ignore the European sources, of which there are HUNDREDS.
hotspurschool 4 weeks ago
@hotspurschool Exatly! What most people don't know is that European martial arts were as deep and complex as their oriental conter-parts. Unfortunatly that knowledge was lost in time, as opposed to oriental ones that were a little more preserved due orient isolation and lack of contact with fire arms during Tokugawa Era. I recommend the documentary "Reclaming the Blade" for every one that wants to learn more about western sword, fighting, forging and meaning.
Galahaddruid 3 weeks ago
@hotspurschool I agree that they left out the ideals of european martial arts where you use every part of your weapon and body as opposed to only using the blade... but there is something to be said of the kind of force used behind broadswords.. my favorite is the claymore and you should know that a number of attacks with broadswords involve hard hitting swings to break bone and break other swords if need be.. that's why they are dual edged so even though they're not as fast as
xShadowDarkX 2 weeks ago
@hotspurschool katana's are.. they can come back on the upswing without changing the direction of your hands.. but more important is the spine of broadswords.. katanas are very sharp and very solid and light where as broadswords are heavy, weighted, and somewhat flexible. the reason behind the flex.. binding.. katanas don't really bind and when you block with it you notch the blade taking away not only from it's sharpness.. but it's integrity, like that greek saying a
xShadowDarkX 2 weeks ago
@hotspurschool "Tree that does not bend before the wind will surely break" most european swords were made with battles in mind. the spine of the broadsword is tempered in a way similar to rebar used in building structure..flexible yet durable.. this meant that when binding you had less chance of your sword breaking if you caught the enemy blade with the spine of your sword and slid it to the bottom and swiped it away. katanas are not very flexible and not meant to block the enemy
xShadowDarkX 2 weeks ago
I still prefer the falcata.
ArtypNk 1 month ago
What i would do for a katana!
Trinnaman0999 1 month ago
actually jsut an FYI the Ninjato is actually much stronger then the Katana due to speed and how well it can be used
Ruckusrocket 1 month ago
@Ruckusrocket Ninjato never existed. Just FYI.
Ranziel1 1 month ago
@Ruckusrocket The ninjato is a holywood prop... All they did was take the general design of a wakizashi, and make it streight... I fail to see how thats "better"...
TheBloodyBlackJackal 1 month ago
hahaha is was so funny at 0:12 xD
r0undst0ne 1 month ago
kind of funny how they show the "expert" who is proven wrong in another video
nightsirc2 1 month ago
@enoughtalkhaveatyou many people DO still practice european martial arts today look up hema or arma
volarion 1 month ago
The big problem is that while katana swordplay is still widely practiced and understood, Western swordplay is kind of a lost art. If European swordsmanship had schools and masters like Japanese swordsmanship, we wouldn't have this katana-wank fan culture.
I'll give katanas this: They have unbelievable cutting power against an unarmored target, and kenjutsu duels look really fucking cool.
enoughtalkhaveatyou 1 month ago
@enoughtalkhaveatyou This video and pretty much every similar video makes the mistake of taking a master of the katana and putting him up against some wild-armed jackass they found at the renaissance fair. Did you see the way he fucking swung that sword?
enoughtalkhaveatyou 1 month ago
Comment removed
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@enoughtalkhaveatyou
They do have schools. Try The Iron Door Studio, for one. And while there are no 'masters' yet(still being rediscovered) there are experts in the field. Many have a background in JMA, which helps in properly implementing translated techniques from the texts. HEMA and JMA have alot in common, swords being swords and humans being humans, most of the differences lie in how each weapons unique attributes are utilized.
Lots of HEMA material here on youtube.
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@enoughtalkhaveatyou: Have you heard about ARMA AND HEMA? They teach a lot of european swordmanship, and believe me, they're really cool. Take a look on my channel if you want to see some of their stuff.
MrAlepedroza 1 month ago
@coolchillice i love a set of katars :p dont see them used often though
volarion 1 month ago
A modern scalpel is the finest cutting blade (in the description)? Please. A standard razor blade has a far better edge. Brute strength statement is another eye roller. I guess for thousands of years we European monkeys could barely garner enough skill to throw rocks and sticks at each other. It's crap like this video that totally turn me off the Katana. I can't even appreciate what it really is because of all the overblown hype people foist on it.
damnonii 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@damnonii
"I guess for thousands of years we European monkeys could barely garner enough skill to throw rocks and sticks at each other."
That's what popular media and minorities want you to believe, at least.
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@damnonii i agree, even though i prefer a katana, i love european swords just as the rapier and longsword. but i never forget such blades as the scimitar and kukri, which are often overshadowed by blades such of feudal times (both europe and japan)
coolchillice 1 month ago
@coolchillice Thank you for being an appreciator instead of raving fanboy. I've heard Katana this and that since I became interested in swords 35 years ago, I am so tired of it. :) . If family history/rumor is correct we have had several ancestors that fought, lived, and died by the sword, that is more interesting to me than what happened in feudal Japan. Lol! Peace man.
damnonii 1 month ago
@damnonii well the sometimes i with people would stop comparing blades as well and keep calling the katana the strongest blade because of its pop culture. i mean katanas are pretty decent and effective but shouldn't be compared with western blades because these blade differ in philosophy and purpose. both eastern and western styles need the same amount of training to master
coolchillice 1 month ago
@damnonii
"A modern scalpel is the finest cutting blade (in the description)? Please. A standard razor blade has a far better edge."
commercially available diamond or obsidian scalpels have edges measured in individual molecules.
pyr666 1 month ago
@pyr666 Neat. I'll look 'em up. Our hospitals out here in the boonies just use the standard stainless or disposables, never seen diamond or obsidian. A good quality razor blade is in the individual molecule range as well. I like the idea of a modern obsidian scalpel, that's cool as hell.
damnonii 1 month ago
they could have at least go someone who knows how to wield a Western sword, I've seen this cutting test done by experts of both, there was not much difference in speed or precession.
wolfdragga 1 month ago
The broadsword was broad so it could get through armor more effectively. Chain mail and plate are much more protective then Samurai Armor.
olelumpy 1 month ago
@olelumpy There is some of that, since the broadness increased the mass behind the edge without increasing the thickness of the blade being forced through the armour. On the other hand, as armour improved sword designs became less broad and more tapered to combat armour.
Also samurai armour was quite protective, they used mail (kusari), coats-of-plates (okegawa or yukinoshita do). There tended to be larger gaps in it though.
Railstarfish 1 month ago
@Railstarfish
more noticeable is a general lack of metal armor in japan.
the tiny island nation has comparatively little iron available to it, so a group of common soldiers dressed in it was an oddity.
pyr666 1 month ago
@pyr666 Err, no. Commonly perpetuated myth, but Japan had more than enough to go around for all the pointy bits and metal pajamas.
halfassedfart 1 month ago
@halfassedfart
er, yes. japan has imported much of its raw metals throughout the ages, and attacked china over such natural resources repeatedly.
hell, the reason japan attacked america in WW2 is because we stopped trading with them.
i should point out I said "comparatively", which is true. and even in the west, softer metals were often used despite iron's availability because it was still fairly rare.
pyr666 1 month ago
@pyr666
Funny, to my mind, a civilization short on metal ores probably wouldn't have made a shitload of munitions quality arms and armour.
Fuel was the main reason, no? That's the first thing they'd have run out of.
Bear in mind that modern heavy industry requires far more resources than a feudal economy.
halfassedfart 1 month ago
@pyr666 A few sources I can recommend mentioning mass-produced munitions armours in Japan (referred to as okashi-do) are "The Evolution of Japanese Armour" at 'myarmoury' website & also in the Royal Armouries book "Introduction to Japanese Armour". Those are what lead me to believe metal armour was not as rare in Japan as is often suggested.
I hope that helps.
Railstarfish 1 month ago
I know nothing of swords, but could a broadsword not snap a katana?
miganders 1 month ago
@miganders
Neither sword could snap the other under normal combat conditions. There is a vid of a longsword breaking another longsword though(a katana used previously broke on the other sword) But that sword was rigidly held in place, struck perpendicularly on the edge on a heavy downward strike. Swords arn't used like that, and it was just as likely that the striking sword would have broken.
In both cases the swords had Very deep notches cut into them.
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@miganders If both swords struck edge-on-edge hard both blades would suffer large gouges. Due to the differential hardening in the katana a large gouge in the edge could cause the blade to warp (the edge is important for holding the shape together).
/watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s#t=5m55s
I should note the conditions in that video would be very rare in actual combat, normally there is too much give or deflection in combat for either sword to break easily.
Railstarfish 1 month ago
@Railstarfish
=P
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@miganders As a side note, the term broadsword in this video is incorrect. It really refers to a much later style of sword (normally with a basket-hilt). The sword in this video is an arming sword, which is no heavier than katana, and the only reason it appears slower is because the guy swinging it has no idea what he is doing.
Railstarfish 1 month ago
@miganders
Due to design the katana is a bit more likely to break though. Since the spine is so soft, if a notch is cut all the way through the very hard edge the blade will bend back on itself.
With two hardened edges, or of a more uniform hardness, doubled-edged less-hard western style swords are less prone to this kind of break and more durable in general.
The vid i mentioned: /watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s
Mythbusters did a special on this as well; only the rapier snapped when struck.
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@WitheringintheDark And the rapier actually snapped when springing back, which would happen very rarely in actual combat, since you parry with the base of the blade and the actual sword isn't fixed in a vice. As far as I'm aware, rapiers would usually break when used for cutting improperly.
Ranziel1 1 month ago
@Ranziel1 And the mechanical arm in Mythbusters was at something like 5 times human strength when breaking the sword.
Railstarfish 1 month ago
He's right. European swords weren't crafted in the same way. European swords were superior because their steel technology was superior. By the time Europeans showed up in Japan, European steel technology progressed to a point where folding the steel repeatedly simply wasn't necessary. And if they want to talk up Japanese steel folding as so supposedly "advanced", well then, guess what? The Celts were already doing that in 700 BC; a full 1,600 years BEFORE the Japanese ever did so.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 months ago
The Vikings also folded the steel in their swords BEFORE the Japanese.
The reason why this demonstration is crap is because:
1) The man representing European swords clearly has no idea what he's doing. He even screwed up when trying to pull his sword out.
2) Unlike the Japanese, Europeans developed a massive variety of swords. This random one handed broadsword was a poor choice.
3) European martial arts died out long ago so their skill and technique isn't authentic.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 months ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
Exactly.
WitheringintheDark 2 months ago
It's also important to keep in mind that the Europeans also didn't adopt the weaponary of their opponent. So apparently they also viewed their opponents weaponary as inferior. But in reality, it was the Japanese who gained more from this encounter than the Europeans. The Japanese were apparently impressed enough with European plate armor that they adopted it. They also adopted their firearms. So who really had the better kit?
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 months ago
And to get back to my point about weapon selection for the European representative, a one handed broadsword vs a 2 handed katana? Really?
A longsword would have been a more fair comparison.
Or in reality, a rapier and dagger which is what Europeans were mostly using when they first encountered the Japanese.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
"a one handed broadsword vs a 2 handed katana? Really?
A longsword would have been a more fair comparison."
Sure, I agree with you. But I can see one point in doing arming sword vs katana. The arming sword is about the same lenght as the katana. So while a LS would be of about the same weight and nearly the same purpose, it's not the same lenght.
A Kriegsmesser would be an even more fair comparison than with a LS I think.
gurkfisk89 1 month ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
Or a two-handed sabre or messer, since that's basically the european equivalent of a katana anyway.
WitheringintheDark 1 month ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
"They also adopted their firearms."
this part cuts both ways.
pyr666 1 month ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix "European steel te