Compare this with the Caine Mutiny, written by a former Naval Officer. Mr. Hunter was wrong in all accounts. "you don't work with a captain because you like the way he parts his hair. You work with him because he's got the job or you're no good" Crimson Tide works from the wrong Hollywood assumption that all military men, especially high ranking are stupid martinets. They also promote the ridiculous concept that the assorted "drug addicts" and "sex perverts" could do a better job. Rubbish.
Many if not all approach as one is good, one is bad. The fact is the best leader; military or otherwise; would combines both. It is what we all as leaders aspire to be, a perfect fusion of authoritative yet collaborative. The writers of the film actually call reference to this at the end "but in sofar as the letter of the law is concerned you were both right. And you were also both wrong. This is the dilemma that will occupy this panel, this Navy and this country's armed forces as a whole"
Two different styles of command. but as the judge said both right both wrong and yes both men had egos but during the movie hunter never used his. Both of them did what duty demanded of them and its a good thing that the decision to fire nuclear missiles can only be authorised by the president toavoid this thing happening for real
Its not mutiny. Its the very reason the rules to engage with nuclear weapons were created. To not allow one man from mistakenly starting a nuclear holocaust.
If the director's aim was to make us dislike the captain, it was a major goof to cast Gene Hackman. If he ran for president, no one would oppose him. ;])
Of course, the moviemakers have to dramatize it. I would've let Mr. Hunter vent his opinion, then stayed quiet to make sure I had everyone's attention. Then I would say, "Mr. Hunter, if you're finished, you can remain here with me in conn and we can forget that this ever happened, or I can have you bound and escorted to your stateroom under the charge of conspiracy to mutiny against a United States Naval vessel during a wartime action. You get to choose."
"You can't be influenced by the Captain or anyone else. You have to make up your own mind." Mutinous words. The captain of a ship is the captain of that ship, until proper authority decides differently.
Mr. Hunter had it in for the captain from the moment the severely overweight sailor died. I hope in real life that someone that fat would never make it into the submarine service in the first place. That goes for the other men on the ship who are obviously overweight, too. The captain has to look out for the MAJORITY interests of the ship's crew and integrity, and Gene Hackman did that. I was saitisfied with the ending.
No when he relieved the captain, he technically should have appointed a new XO. He would not have had to had the Captain concurrance to launch the nukes. He would have had a new XO that I am sure would have concurred.
on IMDB in the trivia section for Crimson Tide, it says that the little dialogue scene about the Curby Silver Surfer was created by Quentin Tarantino.
It's a classic dilemma. They were both right . . . and they were both wrong. There is no clear hero here. But what an incredible performance by both men!
This video nicely displays the current conflict that is going on in the military training facilities of the western nations. The old order is reliant upon tradition, authority and discipline. It seeks to bring out excellence in suitable people. The new school is one that is driven by a desire to maintain staffing levels. The average recruit is of a lower standard and in order to keep numbers up, trainers are seeking to "connect" with the recruits and attempt to help them be better.
A very good leadership example video. Captain ramsey is experienced but also a little gung-ho, and in the nuclear age 'Patton' types are the worst kind.
DrCash7--Great clip, great movie, great actors. Both actors are SO good and they both rock it in this movie. I like that you respond to some of the uuhhmm.....slow learners out there. There is no weakness in this movie, nor in it's actors, so keep up the good work....School them, please! LOL! 5 stars :D
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Whatever about the dialog, Hackman is the commanding presence and has that crucial and hard to pinpoint leadership quality. Washington doesn't have it; also in example 1. he panders to the midshipmen about his fight over a comic - a sign of weakness.
I reckon there'd be very few men in the world who given the situation could control their egos completely. On that basis Denzel Washington's character was probably a brillant commander. Perhaps a reason for why in the end Gene Hackman's character ultimately paid the price for the incident.
It's not a sign of weakness. Watch it again. It's a sign that he is able to connect with the sailor which, if you've seen the whole movie, serves its cause when the same sailor comes to his aid when Hackman attempts to overthrow and cause a mutiny on board.
@economist737 Hackman's character oversteps his bounds. He forgets his responsibility as a captain, and allows his ego to get the best of him. A good captain keeps his crew from breaking apart under pressure. Again, because of the captains behavior the sub command was forced to commit mutiny. What was being asked of them was rash and illogical.
@economist737 your trailing 0 to 14 to DrCash7 in terms of votes. That itself shows who the people think is a better leader. Commanding presence isn't the best trait of a leader, a true leader must protect his men & be prepared to die for them under any cost. And Denzel's character shows that coz he doesn't want to risk his men & his countrymen into a nuclear war. Gene's character is too egoistic to put himself 1st. Btw your talking about their characters & not their acting right?
@giriisindahouse but girlindahouse, a poll of 14 don't mean shit - they're probably naive youngsters like yourself. this is just a movie but if we're going to raise it to parable level, look at the end. the court can't completely back the hackman character (in dramatic terms, anyway) because the stakes too high. but it finds that denzel and the others mutinied. he was self-righteous and didn't know how to exercise the power his role gave him in the manner in which it was meant to be exercised.
@economist737 lol 14 votes mean shit? What's the use of being a leader when your people lose trust in you? Simple as that, you bring Gene's character here & no one listens to him ( except you of course bcoz your orgasmic about his speaking style for some reason). Those old men in the court directly told that they knew the Captain for many years & he never lied, so obviously their view is biased. I want someone who cares about his people to have power on the nuke missiles & the majority does too.
@economist737 lol you even got too many negative votes now. Your ideas are not shared by the majority old man. Its a new era with a new generation so bye bye with the old qualities & principles.
@giriisindahouse Ahh. It's touching and I'd almost feel protective of you, if I cared. It doesn't matter what "votes" I get = this is the real point and why you'd never be a leader. you confuse popularity with leadership.. Look, try watching the movie again through adult eyes. The point was that the system was wrong. The nuclear stakes too high (remember little bit at end about how the system was changed?) MY point was about the natural leadership qualities of the Hackman character vs Denz.
@economist737 its stupid that oldies relate leadership to someone who's just bold & brave, look confident but actually acts on hunches. That is not a trait of a true leader even if it looks like one. That captain refused to listen to anyone & acted based on his guts which may just end the world. In a nuclear world its about compromise. You don't fuckin nuke a country bcoz you gut says so. You have to listen to all sides & most importantly protect your men. Your ideas are garbage today
@giriisindahouse God. This is kind of amusing but getting boring. I'll try one more time on the off chance it keeps you from doing harm in the world ...The movie depicts a military situation in extremis - DEFCON 1, War Imminent. A leader must take decisions - it's not time for a girly chat seeking consensus. But the movie points out that in a nuclear world it can't be left to a boat commander who may have lost communication. I know you're young and dumb but give yourself time to think about it.
@economist737 I know your old and going through menopause but a leader taking decisions doesn't fuckin mean he can just do what his brain tells him to. The problem is that oldies like you haven't come across something called a telecommunication bloom. There are no signal problems in the modern day, so there's no need to make blind decisions. You love that don't you, having that power & doing whatever you want. Too bad old guy even the President listens to the people nowadays.
@giriisindahouse As the President (an "oldie" to you) could explain, when someone is losing an argument they often attack the person they are arguing against. It's called an ad hominem attack. Obama would no doubt despair that underprivileged young'uns like you are beyond help. I think at this point I too will give up trying to explain and console myself with the thought that at least someone like you is never given a decision-making role, apart from picking which container for the Big Mac
@economist737 ????..... -_-. I clearly don't understand what's this off topic bullshit your talking about. I think they call it menopause or perhaps severe loss of brain cells. Anyway your time is up. Its a new generation with new ideologies. So take a back seat old man.
@giriisindahouse I'm not surprised you don't understand. You're a 19 year old boy from Malaysia and none too bright. Think of it this way: your country is barely out from under British rule, and is still backward and corrupt. You have crude rulers like the Badawi family, so your understanding of authority is primitive. This movie may be above your head. I can understand why people from countries like yours resent authority. But let others lead the revolution. You should just follow orders.
@economist737 Perhaps you never heard of people fabricating their identities in the cyber world. Never mind, oldies like you won't understand. Besides no one's gonna hack an old man's computer like yours. Nice but cheap try old man. You can't fight me when it comes to technology.
@giriisindahouse Your life sounds very sad. Or rather your lives - your "cyber warror" life and your real, mouse-like life in grandma's basement (sorry about your real mom). But you're right that neither of us really know anything about the other - I could be younger than you. So, it's back to the power of argument and yours, computerworld genius, is: "you old, you old ... man have grey hair. Menopause!" You so silly. You'll never know about exercising power - calm down.
@economist737 your life in the other hand looks lonely. No one in the house to look after you? Life of a retired man is hard, if your sitting in front of the computer 24/7. Me being a mouse? lol you don't even know what I'm doing. In fact I'm 50 times more useful than you ever were to this world.
@giriisindahouse Wrong on all counts. I'm tired of playing with little mouse and I've got to go now (it's been diverting, though). Clearly, English is not your first language so if I were you I would get away from the computer. Lose a few pounds. Work on that English - in fact, try reading a few books. Start with Clausewitz.
@economist737 Shut up fatass. Looks like your already sterile now. How many brain cells you have left? I don't think there's many. Clearly your jobless. So start working on that. And don't be a dumbfuck trying to talk like a young kid, coz your not. Your just a couch potato who has nothing good to do.
@giriisindahouse Whoa, I must have touched a raw nerve there. How fat are you? Full on shut-in fat? Have you featured in any documentaries? We could both lie as much as we like here so you'll have to take my word for it that while we've been having this little conversation I've run just over 8km/5miles, showered and at my job where I'm earning $1k a day. Here's a youthism for you: booya.
@economist737 yes I'm 700 pounds. Got it? Anyway your mom took the worst sperm from your dad & out you came a mentally trouble son of a bitch. Blame your dad, he got your mom 1st. Otherwise you would've been smarter
Seriously, I hate cyber-bullying so if you are really a fat kid you have my sympathy. Take heart. One step at a time. And don't despair of your ignorance either. You are young (I think), so remember the words of Ben Franklin, “Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.”
@economist737 well I hate useless old garbage trying to give advise. Who in the blue hell you think you are to give an advise. Your a jobless, lonely cunt who spends the rest of the day in front of the computer to make yourself happy & you wanna advise me? Lmfao well I work on it so I have a reason to be in front of it.
@giriisindahouse Ah, my little plump grasshopper, it should be "advice" in your first two references. (That is what we native English speakers call irony). You're now ranting at the top of your voice so I fear I have triggered something. Please don't commit suicide. There is always hope. Put down that jelly doughnut (or giant bowl of monkey brains, or whatever you eat in your part of the world) and start walking around your little shanty town. Baby steps.
@economist737 And you don't just sit in front of the computer to ease your loneliness. Go out, do some job so that your not a useless asshole. As dumb as you are there are jobs you can do.
This movie is one of the best at showing various types of leadership traits and dilemas. Makes one think twice about being the leader that has to make the decisions that could haunt you for the rest of your life.
Of course it's one sidded. The author of the original piece, the editor (even my edit), and the director are all trying to make the audience dislike the captain and side with Denzel Washington's character. But by no means was the Captain right on the issues.
Well, like the admiral said at the end, they were both right and they were both wrong. The XO was in ways naive and too optimistic, while the captain made valid arguments(their back up subs could have been destroyed, they DID have an order to fire, they DID have a time limit), but confirming the second EAM should have been a priority, and in that the XO was right. If they nuked a rebel controlled nuclear base that was ready to fire(and ONLY the base) there was a chance.......
to avoid all out nuclear war(russia would be far from happy, but they would know that retaliation would mean mutual destruction), but nuke the base after the rebels had been subdued, and it's over. The XO was right in saying that war is the real enemy in the nuclear world. The captain was doing his duty as he saw it, but truthfully, if the situation was what he thought, then it would probably not matter who fired first.
@knightryderrwn : Of course, no one from the Board of Inquiry was INSIDE the boat in real-time to witness the yelling matches. I am sure, though, that nuclear submarines carry "black boxes" in strategic command locations.
I wouldn't know about "black boxes" on subs -- not my area of expertise. And, you're right -- nobody from the BOE witnessed the screaming matches that erupted on board -- wonder what would have happened if somebody had been?
@knightryderrwn : They might very well have both been administratively disharged from the Navy, or had formal reprimands in their record jackets. A nuclear submarine is not a place for personality games and conflicts--it's like living inside an atomic bomb.
@knightryderrwn : I'm laughing at myself because during the movie, my blood was up because I was thinking, what if that kind of s**t is actually going on out there under the ocean right now? Bbbrrrrrr. ;])
@DrCash7 As @Jarsia said, the XO - and you - are naive. Your blind love of Denzel means you fail to see the full dramatic picture. If you look at it as a high school popularity contest you side with the nice XO. but the story is about the dilemma of leadership. The Hackman character was right, but the system was too dangerous given the stakes in a nuclear world. Look at the end again without getting all moist for Denz.
@economist737 so your telling we should give the power on nuclear missiles to an man who prefers to make decisions based on his instincts & not what the country wants him to? If you wanna go to war & die then go ahead but I & obviously the majority prefer getting details especially from my President who clearly speaks for the nation before I nuke a country. Plus your stupid to single out actors. They're just doing their roles & what's told to them.
Once the XO relieved the Captain, could he then release the nukes without the Captain concurring? I know that wasen't the intention but what would be the rule then? Surely after being relieved the Captain would naturally not concur therefore releasing them would be basically impossible.
The same rules would be in effect--two commanding officers would still have to concur before the launch of any missiles. The two concurring officers would probably be the XO and then move down the line to the first mate or someone. I don't know I know ever sail in submarines nor command them, no order them to fire. I just make edits.
The captain is an experienced military commander and has proven many times in his ability to engage combat. His overconfidence and arrogance has blinded his ability to think twice before proceeding to launch nuclear missiles. He refused to find out the full content of the incomplete message and believes his authority to launch the missiles on his own initiative. Therefore he is no longer fit to be a leader.
In war, there are regulations that must be followed by those senior in command, and it is up to his subordinates to insist that he obeys these regulatons. For example, it is illegal to murder unarmed civilians. Orders to do so are illegitimate order, and if a subordinate obeys them, he is guilty of a criminal act.
This captain violated regulations concerning the legitimate launch of nuclear weapons. Therefore, it was everyone's duty to set him straight. Cobb was the most right of all!
The captain was following regulations. The cutoff EAM did not have a launch confirmation code printed on it. He had to assume the enemy was trying to stop them from launching. The Admiral at the end of the film told both the Captain and the XO that they were both right, and they were both wrong. They were both right in the fact that they were applying Navy regulations, but wrong in the fact they both failed to work their differences and preserve the unified chain of command.
I thought, given the stakes, that the Captain was utterly wrong. Thank God the XO stopped him. The Admiral was I thought slaving his friend's, the Captain's conscience. The XO was right.
I hope the day will never come when orders or regulations of the administrative or military kind, over-ride common sense or onces commitment to higher values.
the captain was following the regulations. his decision isnt wrong but the condition made it wrong. but they did talk something abt redundancy so i guess XO was right.
damn good movie. like all sub movies. except for that crap one with that pansy from tennesse..matthew something in U-something. crap ass movie. All other sub movies are gold
Willhelm007 in the military you follow an order unless it's illegal or if there are questions to the outcome concerning human lives. Believe it or not he was right in the fact that the order giving to the Captain (message) was not complete therefore the order the Captain gave to the XO is invalid and selfish. I will not go into anymore about this but Denzel's character was right for not concurring.
he can do it under regulations - but it takes brass balls as there is only one position - you are either right and will be decorated or wrong and tried for mutiny and executed.
From what I understand he doesn't have the right to necessarily "usurp" the captain's power but under situations where a captain is trying to do something against regulation (in this case launch without both the XO and the Capt concurring) Denzel's character had to do just what he did--relieve the captain. Imagine if it were the captain trying to launch missiles just for the heck of launching them. The same thing would apply.
DrCash7 Actually ChampionServices777 is right under Naval Regulations the XO can relieve the CO but the CO can not relieve the XO. The XO is basically a back up plan to the CO in cases like this (though this would never happened, and contrary to popular belief this movie is not based on real life). There must be no other alternative for the XO to do this though he can't just do it because he has brass balls either. Trust me I know, I'm a submariner.
Discussion should focus on GOOD leadership vs bad, confidence vs. arrogance. Both leaders give examples of both kind of traits. There are no easy answers to basic questions of right and wrong, making this movie pretty thought provoking for a "mere" action flick.
Because I know that for days after December 7th 1941 tapping from trapped men in the USS Arizona could be heard - and that they were not saved...and because I have an uncle who is still in the hull of the USS Arizona. This clip moved me to tears. This is a perfect summary of not just the movie but of leadership as most of us will never, God willing, have to know it or employ it. Perfect. Thank you.
Ha, sounds like someone has been procrastinating... I suppose you can use this segment. Not sure what you mean by breaking it up into segments since it is already broken up into segments.
Man....I always knew of this films exsistance...but WHAT POWER to see the segments. THat's it! I am going out to look for this DVD. I thank you sir Crash for breaking this up and giving us a taste of the complete awesomness of this film.
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I bet if George Bush was the Capt. Gene Hackman's character is definitely a Bushite in cowboy attitude. Then Denzil Washington is Barak Obama calling for calm and sense. That is the difference between bush and obama. I believe Denzil Washington is the voice of reason Barak Obama and George Bush is the Mad Cowboy Capt. LOL!
I served on board the James K. Polk SSBN 645 during the cold war. I had three different commanding officers during my tour on board. Although you might be tempted to believe that nuclear command naval officers are like Washington and Hackman, the truth is far different. The ones I saw were cool and professional. I never saw any disputes like this. One CO I had walked around like he was on Quaaludes all the time. They are highly screened to be calm and follow procedures, not Hollywood theatrics.
I respecy your experience but you may have never been on the very verge of a nucler holocaust and I mean veeeery verge like in the situation here portayed. I hope so, at least...
Compare this with the Caine Mutiny, written by a former Naval Officer. Mr. Hunter was wrong in all accounts. "you don't work with a captain because you like the way he parts his hair. You work with him because he's got the job or you're no good" Crimson Tide works from the wrong Hollywood assumption that all military men, especially high ranking are stupid martinets. They also promote the ridiculous concept that the assorted "drug addicts" and "sex perverts" could do a better job. Rubbish.
joelweymouthtais 1 month ago
05:39 Ouch! Thats gotta hurt!
mjrk394 2 months ago
Comment removed
mjrk394 2 months ago
I still don't understand why many of you even bothered to comment on this lol. I did it for class many many moons ago ;P
DrCash7 2 months ago
I agree with girlsindahouse
daldevs99 2 months ago
Click DISLIKE this video if RMIT brings you there T________T
noctowl1928 3 months ago
Economist737 = Ramsey
Girlsindahouse = hunter
XD
justnukeit 3 months ago
It's a shame how such an excellent video was hijacked by someone with so little grey matter as girlsindahouse.
moonlitphantasm 5 months ago
Many if not all approach as one is good, one is bad. The fact is the best leader; military or otherwise; would combines both. It is what we all as leaders aspire to be, a perfect fusion of authoritative yet collaborative. The writers of the film actually call reference to this at the end "but in sofar as the letter of the law is concerned you were both right. And you were also both wrong. This is the dilemma that will occupy this panel, this Navy and this country's armed forces as a whole"
MrSatireTube 7 months ago
seal that bay.............. :(~~~
LTDANMAN44 8 months ago
While I was watching the new Star Trek movie I reminded this movie, now I can see why.
ElTuco84 9 months ago
Two different styles of command. but as the judge said both right both wrong and yes both men had egos but during the movie hunter never used his. Both of them did what duty demanded of them and its a good thing that the decision to fire nuclear missiles can only be authorised by the president toavoid this thing happening for real
Velossian1 9 months ago
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one of the greatest movie I ever watch !
BlueRiver001 9 months ago
COB is the true example of hard leadership in this scene...
piachy 10 months ago
this is why EAMs have the action word put before anything else....
bruin07uscg 10 months ago
3 people are Mobius Silver Surfer fans...
CrosseyedPwnzy 10 months ago
Its not mutiny. Its the very reason the rules to engage with nuclear weapons were created. To not allow one man from mistakenly starting a nuclear holocaust.
squidman22 11 months ago
The purpose of the XO is to represent the needs of the crew. Quite often orders are given to the XO to relay to the crew
efrantila 1 year ago
Fantastic film.
Juvebeck10 1 year ago
A ship's(or boat's)name, to a large extent, sets the tone for the crew's attitude and mind-set. 'nuff sed. ;])
buzzclick500 1 year ago
If the director's aim was to make us dislike the captain, it was a major goof to cast Gene Hackman. If he ran for president, no one would oppose him. ;])
buzzclick500 1 year ago
Of course, the moviemakers have to dramatize it. I would've let Mr. Hunter vent his opinion, then stayed quiet to make sure I had everyone's attention. Then I would say, "Mr. Hunter, if you're finished, you can remain here with me in conn and we can forget that this ever happened, or I can have you bound and escorted to your stateroom under the charge of conspiracy to mutiny against a United States Naval vessel during a wartime action. You get to choose."
buzzclick500 1 year ago
"You can't be influenced by the Captain or anyone else. You have to make up your own mind." Mutinous words. The captain of a ship is the captain of that ship, until proper authority decides differently.
buzzclick500 1 year ago
Mr. Hunter had it in for the captain from the moment the severely overweight sailor died. I hope in real life that someone that fat would never make it into the submarine service in the first place. That goes for the other men on the ship who are obviously overweight, too. The captain has to look out for the MAJORITY interests of the ship's crew and integrity, and Gene Hackman did that. I was saitisfied with the ending.
buzzclick500 1 year ago
Nobody can touch Hackman's shit.
turntapzap 1 year ago
@turntapzap : Well said. Has he EVER made a bad movie? What a record. He's perfect for who he is and what he does. It's spooky.
buzzclick500 1 year ago
@buzzclick500 I know, right?
turntapzap 1 year ago
@turntapzap : ;]
buzzclick500 1 year ago
YOU GOTTA LOVE HACKMAN AND DENZEL IN THIS FILM FUCKING SUPERB ACTING ..SIT BACK AND ENJOY
MRORTIZBEATS 1 year ago
'seal the gat damn bay before we all go down'.... a leader does what he has to do despite the unpopularity....
articulaytor 1 year ago
one of the best motion pictures in history...
articulaytor 1 year ago
No when he relieved the captain, he technically should have appointed a new XO. He would not have had to had the Captain concurrance to launch the nukes. He would have had a new XO that I am sure would have concurred.
geeksetconline 1 year ago
on IMDB in the trivia section for Crimson Tide, it says that the little dialogue scene about the Curby Silver Surfer was created by Quentin Tarantino.
ddut887 1 year ago
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misshallsschool 1 year ago
It's a classic dilemma. They were both right . . . and they were both wrong. There is no clear hero here. But what an incredible performance by both men!
bellerophon602 1 year ago
how is that guy at the start a supervisor? such a little douchebag
tdenterprise 1 year ago
good idea:)
jthrilla921 1 year ago
1:55 "im captain of this boat, now STFU!!!" Denzel got ownd!! now that's real leadership lol xD
grimofhell 1 year ago
This video nicely displays the current conflict that is going on in the military training facilities of the western nations. The old order is reliant upon tradition, authority and discipline. It seeks to bring out excellence in suitable people. The new school is one that is driven by a desire to maintain staffing levels. The average recruit is of a lower standard and in order to keep numbers up, trainers are seeking to "connect" with the recruits and attempt to help them be better.
macconnell100 1 year ago
A very good leadership example video. Captain ramsey is experienced but also a little gung-ho, and in the nuclear age 'Patton' types are the worst kind.
trigga1uk 1 year ago
Comment removed
bluesaxon1 1 year ago
DrCash7--Great clip, great movie, great actors. Both actors are SO good and they both rock it in this movie. I like that you respond to some of the uuhhmm.....slow learners out there. There is no weakness in this movie, nor in it's actors, so keep up the good work....School them, please! LOL! 5 stars :D
KLTsun144 1 year ago
I am a leader of a sales team and I use lines from this movie all the time. Especially those of Captain Ramsey.
sarnow76 1 year ago 2
hahahaha
SCJohnson77 1 year ago
4:05 Balls of steel.
JackMacyntire 2 years ago
You can watch Denzel Washington in 10 movies and always get the same acting in every one...
Brainiac83 2 years ago
I made the same comment on his performance in GLORY. You don't know the nasty comments I got as a response.
MondoBeno 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Whatever about the dialog, Hackman is the commanding presence and has that crucial and hard to pinpoint leadership quality. Washington doesn't have it; also in example 1. he panders to the midshipmen about his fight over a comic - a sign of weakness.
economist737 2 years ago
Both men have good leadership qualities, but also, both men are poor leaders throughout the movie, because they allow ego to interfere with duty.
BamaChris 2 years ago
I reckon there'd be very few men in the world who given the situation could control their egos completely. On that basis Denzel Washington's character was probably a brillant commander. Perhaps a reason for why in the end Gene Hackman's character ultimately paid the price for the incident.
aussieeagle2512 1 year ago
It's not a sign of weakness. Watch it again. It's a sign that he is able to connect with the sailor which, if you've seen the whole movie, serves its cause when the same sailor comes to his aid when Hackman attempts to overthrow and cause a mutiny on board.
DrCash7 1 year ago 11
Well said, economist 737.
PencilsAreAwesome 1 year ago
@economist737 I bet you never served in the military.
kevsandwhorr 1 year ago
@economist737 Hackman's character oversteps his bounds. He forgets his responsibility as a captain, and allows his ego to get the best of him. A good captain keeps his crew from breaking apart under pressure. Again, because of the captains behavior the sub command was forced to commit mutiny. What was being asked of them was rash and illogical.
theman4130 9 months ago
@economist737 your trailing 0 to 14 to DrCash7 in terms of votes. That itself shows who the people think is a better leader. Commanding presence isn't the best trait of a leader, a true leader must protect his men & be prepared to die for them under any cost. And Denzel's character shows that coz he doesn't want to risk his men & his countrymen into a nuclear war. Gene's character is too egoistic to put himself 1st. Btw your talking about their characters & not their acting right?
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse but girlindahouse, a poll of 14 don't mean shit - they're probably naive youngsters like yourself. this is just a movie but if we're going to raise it to parable level, look at the end. the court can't completely back the hackman character (in dramatic terms, anyway) because the stakes too high. but it finds that denzel and the others mutinied. he was self-righteous and didn't know how to exercise the power his role gave him in the manner in which it was meant to be exercised.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 lol 14 votes mean shit? What's the use of being a leader when your people lose trust in you? Simple as that, you bring Gene's character here & no one listens to him ( except you of course bcoz your orgasmic about his speaking style for some reason). Those old men in the court directly told that they knew the Captain for many years & he never lied, so obviously their view is biased. I want someone who cares about his people to have power on the nuke missiles & the majority does too.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse don't be so emotonal. it will get clearer to you after you've been shaving a few years.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 lol you even got too many negative votes now. Your ideas are not shared by the majority old man. Its a new era with a new generation so bye bye with the old qualities & principles.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse Ahh. It's touching and I'd almost feel protective of you, if I cared. It doesn't matter what "votes" I get = this is the real point and why you'd never be a leader. you confuse popularity with leadership.. Look, try watching the movie again through adult eyes. The point was that the system was wrong. The nuclear stakes too high (remember little bit at end about how the system was changed?) MY point was about the natural leadership qualities of the Hackman character vs Denz.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 its stupid that oldies relate leadership to someone who's just bold & brave, look confident but actually acts on hunches. That is not a trait of a true leader even if it looks like one. That captain refused to listen to anyone & acted based on his guts which may just end the world. In a nuclear world its about compromise. You don't fuckin nuke a country bcoz you gut says so. You have to listen to all sides & most importantly protect your men. Your ideas are garbage today
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse God. This is kind of amusing but getting boring. I'll try one more time on the off chance it keeps you from doing harm in the world ...The movie depicts a military situation in extremis - DEFCON 1, War Imminent. A leader must take decisions - it's not time for a girly chat seeking consensus. But the movie points out that in a nuclear world it can't be left to a boat commander who may have lost communication. I know you're young and dumb but give yourself time to think about it.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 I know your old and going through menopause but a leader taking decisions doesn't fuckin mean he can just do what his brain tells him to. The problem is that oldies like you haven't come across something called a telecommunication bloom. There are no signal problems in the modern day, so there's no need to make blind decisions. You love that don't you, having that power & doing whatever you want. Too bad old guy even the President listens to the people nowadays.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse As the President (an "oldie" to you) could explain, when someone is losing an argument they often attack the person they are arguing against. It's called an ad hominem attack. Obama would no doubt despair that underprivileged young'uns like you are beyond help. I think at this point I too will give up trying to explain and console myself with the thought that at least someone like you is never given a decision-making role, apart from picking which container for the Big Mac
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 ????..... -_-. I clearly don't understand what's this off topic bullshit your talking about. I think they call it menopause or perhaps severe loss of brain cells. Anyway your time is up. Its a new generation with new ideologies. So take a back seat old man.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse I'm not surprised you don't understand. You're a 19 year old boy from Malaysia and none too bright. Think of it this way: your country is barely out from under British rule, and is still backward and corrupt. You have crude rulers like the Badawi family, so your understanding of authority is primitive. This movie may be above your head. I can understand why people from countries like yours resent authority. But let others lead the revolution. You should just follow orders.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 Perhaps you never heard of people fabricating their identities in the cyber world. Never mind, oldies like you won't understand. Besides no one's gonna hack an old man's computer like yours. Nice but cheap try old man. You can't fight me when it comes to technology.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse Your life sounds very sad. Or rather your lives - your "cyber warror" life and your real, mouse-like life in grandma's basement (sorry about your real mom). But you're right that neither of us really know anything about the other - I could be younger than you. So, it's back to the power of argument and yours, computerworld genius, is: "you old, you old ... man have grey hair. Menopause!" You so silly. You'll never know about exercising power - calm down.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 your life in the other hand looks lonely. No one in the house to look after you? Life of a retired man is hard, if your sitting in front of the computer 24/7. Me being a mouse? lol you don't even know what I'm doing. In fact I'm 50 times more useful than you ever were to this world.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse Wrong on all counts. I'm tired of playing with little mouse and I've got to go now (it's been diverting, though). Clearly, English is not your first language so if I were you I would get away from the computer. Lose a few pounds. Work on that English - in fact, try reading a few books. Start with Clausewitz.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 Shut up fatass. Looks like your already sterile now. How many brain cells you have left? I don't think there's many. Clearly your jobless. So start working on that. And don't be a dumbfuck trying to talk like a young kid, coz your not. Your just a couch potato who has nothing good to do.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse Whoa, I must have touched a raw nerve there. How fat are you? Full on shut-in fat? Have you featured in any documentaries? We could both lie as much as we like here so you'll have to take my word for it that while we've been having this little conversation I've run just over 8km/5miles, showered and at my job where I'm earning $1k a day. Here's a youthism for you: booya.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 yes I'm 700 pounds. Got it? Anyway your mom took the worst sperm from your dad & out you came a mentally trouble son of a bitch. Blame your dad, he got your mom 1st. Otherwise you would've been smarter
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse
Seriously, I hate cyber-bullying so if you are really a fat kid you have my sympathy. Take heart. One step at a time. And don't despair of your ignorance either. You are young (I think), so remember the words of Ben Franklin, “Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.”
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 well I hate useless old garbage trying to give advise. Who in the blue hell you think you are to give an advise. Your a jobless, lonely cunt who spends the rest of the day in front of the computer to make yourself happy & you wanna advise me? Lmfao well I work on it so I have a reason to be in front of it.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
@giriisindahouse Ah, my little plump grasshopper, it should be "advice" in your first two references. (That is what we native English speakers call irony). You're now ranting at the top of your voice so I fear I have triggered something. Please don't commit suicide. There is always hope. Put down that jelly doughnut (or giant bowl of monkey brains, or whatever you eat in your part of the world) and start walking around your little shanty town. Baby steps.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 And you don't just sit in front of the computer to ease your loneliness. Go out, do some job so that your not a useless asshole. As dumb as you are there are jobs you can do.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
This movie is one of the best at showing various types of leadership traits and dilemas. Makes one think twice about being the leader that has to make the decisions that could haunt you for the rest of your life.
rattler0812 2 years ago 4
Mr Hunter,i made the decision im captain of this boat NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP!
76BLADERUNNER 2 years ago
Great film 10/10
AyeOkNowFuckOff 2 years ago 7
This video is a little one sided. I think the Captian was right in alot of the stuff.
irshcountry 2 years ago
Of course it's one sidded. The author of the original piece, the editor (even my edit), and the director are all trying to make the audience dislike the captain and side with Denzel Washington's character. But by no means was the Captain right on the issues.
DrCash7 2 years ago 2
Well, like the admiral said at the end, they were both right and they were both wrong. The XO was in ways naive and too optimistic, while the captain made valid arguments(their back up subs could have been destroyed, they DID have an order to fire, they DID have a time limit), but confirming the second EAM should have been a priority, and in that the XO was right. If they nuked a rebel controlled nuclear base that was ready to fire(and ONLY the base) there was a chance.......
Jarsia 2 years ago
to avoid all out nuclear war(russia would be far from happy, but they would know that retaliation would mean mutual destruction), but nuke the base after the rebels had been subdued, and it's over. The XO was right in saying that war is the real enemy in the nuclear world. The captain was doing his duty as he saw it, but truthfully, if the situation was what he thought, then it would probably not matter who fired first.
Jarsia 2 years ago
@DrCash7,
As Jason Robards said in the Board of Inquiry, "Insofar as the letter of the law is concerned, you were BOTH RIGHT. And, you were also BOTH WRONG."
knightryderrwn 1 year ago
@knightryderrwn : Of course, no one from the Board of Inquiry was INSIDE the boat in real-time to witness the yelling matches. I am sure, though, that nuclear submarines carry "black boxes" in strategic command locations.
buzzclick500 1 year ago
@buzzclick500<
I wouldn't know about "black boxes" on subs -- not my area of expertise. And, you're right -- nobody from the BOE witnessed the screaming matches that erupted on board -- wonder what would have happened if somebody had been?
knightryderrwn 1 year ago
@knightryderrwn : They might very well have both been administratively disharged from the Navy, or had formal reprimands in their record jackets. A nuclear submarine is not a place for personality games and conflicts--it's like living inside an atomic bomb.
buzzclick500 1 year ago
@buzzclick500,
Good points. :)
knightryderrwn 1 year ago
@knightryderrwn : I'm laughing at myself because during the movie, my blood was up because I was thinking, what if that kind of s**t is actually going on out there under the ocean right now? Bbbrrrrrr. ;])
buzzclick500 1 year ago
@buzzclick500,
Good question!! XD
knightryderrwn 1 year ago
@knightryderrwn : ;])
buzzclick500 1 year ago
@DrCash7 As @Jarsia said, the XO - and you - are naive. Your blind love of Denzel means you fail to see the full dramatic picture. If you look at it as a high school popularity contest you side with the nice XO. but the story is about the dilemma of leadership. The Hackman character was right, but the system was too dangerous given the stakes in a nuclear world. Look at the end again without getting all moist for Denz.
economist737 8 months ago
@economist737 so your telling we should give the power on nuclear missiles to an man who prefers to make decisions based on his instincts & not what the country wants him to? If you wanna go to war & die then go ahead but I & obviously the majority prefer getting details especially from my President who clearly speaks for the nation before I nuke a country. Plus your stupid to single out actors. They're just doing their roles & what's told to them.
giriisindahouse 8 months ago
Once the XO relieved the Captain, could he then release the nukes without the Captain concurring? I know that wasen't the intention but what would be the rule then? Surely after being relieved the Captain would naturally not concur therefore releasing them would be basically impossible.
aussieeagle2512 2 years ago
@aussieeagle2512
i think he will then appoint a XO and then they must decide together. i dont know.
wanyiren 2 years ago
Yea its a tricky one. I guess we must assume then that the XO-come-Commander disagreed with the launch and therefore there'd be no launch.
aussieeagle2512 2 years ago 2
PRP. If one is unwilling to launch upon the order you shoot him and launch.
knightnvy 2 years ago
The same rules would be in effect--two commanding officers would still have to concur before the launch of any missiles. The two concurring officers would probably be the XO and then move down the line to the first mate or someone. I don't know I know ever sail in submarines nor command them, no order them to fire. I just make edits.
DrCash7 1 year ago
@DrCash7 The Chief Of the Boat (COB) is 3rd in line. Washington would ask him to concur.
McBrannon1000 1 year ago
@McBrannon1000 COB is the senior enlisted man, a chief petty officer - he cannot be XO. It would be the next line officer.
jsharp1701 1 year ago
Gene Hackman is an asshole. Its his way or the highway plain and simple.
TuAFFalcon 2 years ago
Well said lantean!
Great video DrCash7, thanks!
Beware guys, big FEMA drill upcoming!
Google and YouTube search for NLE09
MaKaElectric 2 years ago
The captain is an experienced military commander and has proven many times in his ability to engage combat. His overconfidence and arrogance has blinded his ability to think twice before proceeding to launch nuclear missiles. He refused to find out the full content of the incomplete message and believes his authority to launch the missiles on his own initiative. Therefore he is no longer fit to be a leader.
lantean 2 years ago 20
Very well put.
DrCash7 2 years ago
Couldn't have said it better.
doccu 2 years ago
Woohoo! Silver Surfer!
XR6Charged 2 years ago
Why Denzel could release Gene's command? I think Gene is the captain and has the highest authority.
sterm 2 years ago
In war, there are regulations that must be followed by those senior in command, and it is up to his subordinates to insist that he obeys these regulatons. For example, it is illegal to murder unarmed civilians. Orders to do so are illegitimate order, and if a subordinate obeys them, he is guilty of a criminal act.
This captain violated regulations concerning the legitimate launch of nuclear weapons. Therefore, it was everyone's duty to set him straight. Cobb was the most right of all!
mc0558 2 years ago 3
thanks!
sterm 2 years ago
The captain was following regulations. The cutoff EAM did not have a launch confirmation code printed on it. He had to assume the enemy was trying to stop them from launching. The Admiral at the end of the film told both the Captain and the XO that they were both right, and they were both wrong. They were both right in the fact that they were applying Navy regulations, but wrong in the fact they both failed to work their differences and preserve the unified chain of command.
riser25 2 years ago
I thought, given the stakes, that the Captain was utterly wrong. Thank God the XO stopped him. The Admiral was I thought slaving his friend's, the Captain's conscience. The XO was right.
I hope the day will never come when orders or regulations of the administrative or military kind, over-ride common sense or onces commitment to higher values.
mc0558 2 years ago
@mc0558
the captain was following the regulations. his decision isnt wrong but the condition made it wrong. but they did talk something abt redundancy so i guess XO was right.
wanyiren 2 years ago
Gene Hackman Owns all, Beat actor ever, Denzel good to, but Gene Made this film what it is, EXCELLENT EXCELLENT
UrharRar 2 years ago 3
"You dont put on a condom unless your gona fuck!"
XR6Charged 2 years ago
What does that have to do with nuclear attack?
mc0558 2 years ago
"Their fueling their missles, we dont have time to fuck around!" you tellum Gene
Credithelper75 2 years ago
damn good movie. like all sub movies. except for that crap one with that pansy from tennesse..matthew something in U-something. crap ass movie. All other sub movies are gold
maximus323 2 years ago
"Captain I relieve you of your command of this ship." True balls.
JackMacyntire 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Denzel first refuses to obey orders, and after he asks his man to obey?
Willhelm007 2 years ago
Willhelm007 in the military you follow an order unless it's illegal or if there are questions to the outcome concerning human lives. Believe it or not he was right in the fact that the order giving to the Captain (message) was not complete therefore the order the Captain gave to the XO is invalid and selfish. I will not go into anymore about this but Denzel's character was right for not concurring.
PLAYERO767 2 years ago
I love this movie
boltsdiehard 2 years ago 2
I understand both having to concur to release the weapons but how can Denzel's character actually releive the Captain?
aussieeagle2512 3 years ago
he can do it under regulations - but it takes brass balls as there is only one position - you are either right and will be decorated or wrong and tried for mutiny and executed.
ChampionServices777 3 years ago
From what I understand he doesn't have the right to necessarily "usurp" the captain's power but under situations where a captain is trying to do something against regulation (in this case launch without both the XO and the Capt concurring) Denzel's character had to do just what he did--relieve the captain. Imagine if it were the captain trying to launch missiles just for the heck of launching them. The same thing would apply.
DrCash7 2 years ago
DrCash7 Actually ChampionServices777 is right under Naval Regulations the XO can relieve the CO but the CO can not relieve the XO. The XO is basically a back up plan to the CO in cases like this (though this would never happened, and contrary to popular belief this movie is not based on real life). There must be no other alternative for the XO to do this though he can't just do it because he has brass balls either. Trust me I know, I'm a submariner.
PLAYERO767 2 years ago
Yea, its probably just as well that (as stated at the end of the film) the authority no longer rests with the Submarine commanders.
aussieeagle2512 2 years ago
Discussion should focus on GOOD leadership vs bad, confidence vs. arrogance. Both leaders give examples of both kind of traits. There are no easy answers to basic questions of right and wrong, making this movie pretty thought provoking for a "mere" action flick.
cosmicdingo 3 years ago
Another good movie for looking at ethics in leadership is Saving Private Ryan.
ChampionServices777 3 years ago
great acting
wufuehufrhwiei 3 years ago
One of the best !
manny1403 3 years ago
Crimson tide.? Looks like an interesting movie.
Dontgupt208 3 years ago
It was. Rarely does a submarine movie disappoint.
nowayjose470 3 years ago 3
very inspiring sir
grassjellee 3 years ago
Because I know that for days after December 7th 1941 tapping from trapped men in the USS Arizona could be heard - and that they were not saved...and because I have an uncle who is still in the hull of the USS Arizona. This clip moved me to tears. This is a perfect summary of not just the movie but of leadership as most of us will never, God willing, have to know it or employ it. Perfect. Thank you.
DVCAZ 3 years ago 2
Gee thanks, it was just for a school project but hell if it moves you it moves you :)
DrCash7 3 years ago
This is good! I need this clip for a presentation Tues. morning 9-29-08. Can anyone help me break this into segments? Thanks
tuckdaddy23 3 years ago
Ha, sounds like someone has been procrastinating... I suppose you can use this segment. Not sure what you mean by breaking it up into segments since it is already broken up into segments.
DrCash7 3 years ago
Man....I always knew of this films exsistance...but WHAT POWER to see the segments. THat's it! I am going out to look for this DVD. I thank you sir Crash for breaking this up and giving us a taste of the complete awesomness of this film.
Mellomel 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I bet if George Bush was the Capt. Gene Hackman's character is definitely a Bushite in cowboy attitude. Then Denzil Washington is Barak Obama calling for calm and sense. That is the difference between bush and obama. I believe Denzil Washington is the voice of reason Barak Obama and George Bush is the Mad Cowboy Capt. LOL!
markjayaweera 3 years ago
Except that Denzel washington is totally a conservative
magicblanket 3 years ago 5
I'd love to see/read/hear about the class this was in relation to.
cjayie 3 years ago
At my school and probably at his/hers, there is a class called leadership in which you help organize school activities such as dances.
TheAirForceNinja 3 years ago
Final Cut pro. Import the movie, then select the portions you want to edit. Add some transitions, text, voila.
DrCash7 3 years ago
How did you capture the video?
cliggs002 3 years ago
cool vid
Fox250R 3 years ago
NONE
JAMES2918 3 years ago
I served on board the James K. Polk SSBN 645 during the cold war. I had three different commanding officers during my tour on board. Although you might be tempted to believe that nuclear command naval officers are like Washington and Hackman, the truth is far different. The ones I saw were cool and professional. I never saw any disputes like this. One CO I had walked around like he was on Quaaludes all the time. They are highly screened to be calm and follow procedures, not Hollywood theatrics.
dorkwad06 3 years ago
I'm sure. Hell I just pieced these together for the stupid class lol.
DrCash7 3 years ago
I respecy your experience but you may have never been on the very verge of a nucler holocaust and I mean veeeery verge like in the situation here portayed. I hope so, at least...
ElephantRage 3 years ago
Good to know.
This was a big Hollywood "what if," anyway. They exaggerate to illustrate a point, nothing more.
mejdrich 3 years ago
@dorkwad06
I know this comment is over two years old, but I concur. The navy commanders I saw rarely, if ever, raised their voice, even heated situations.
Haywerth 1 year ago
@Haywerth many in a DEFCON 1 situation?
economist737 8 months ago
Let me guess...your prof is Larry Cochran? Hope you got a good grade on the paper.
TSXguy 3 years ago