I'm tired of all the hating on Liu Shan. Didn't he rule Shu with peace? Surrendering to Wei instead of fighting a lost cause, putting strain on the common peoples and war/chaos raging the land. Tch.
@FeiTu123 So a man causes destruction, terror, problems for his people? Why would you fight to the end? When it is inevitable. Might as well give in, let the common people live on life without death and soldiers looting/ even killing.
@MasamuneAzure no a real man would focus on his country and not waste time playing and grow some balls. Liu shan surrundered because Wei general with couple thousand troops snuck into SHU capital. Even though She had over 1 million troops in the capital. How pathetic is that....Also LiU Shan was one reason the war was lost. He recalled Zhugeliang just as he was about to enter wei capital because someone said Zhuge was going to never come back....thats sad of a man
@FeiTu123 First. Liu Shan ( obviously) was not an ambitious ruler. We cannot blame him for that. Liu Bei automatically put him on the throne. It was not in Liu Shan's personality/aspirations to conquer china. He left that to his ministers, and generals etc.. Second. Shu did not have a million troops in the capital. SHU in total, can only hold a maximum of 50,000 - 100,000 troops. How does the capital alone have 1 million? Wei can't even hold 1 million troops.
@MasamuneAzure how would you know shu can only hold 50000 to 100000 troops...did you live at that time? also there was other regions next to the capital that had troops to. and like u said hes not ambitious ruler.which is one reason shu lost the war. also its true people suffered. but people suffered in wei and wu as well. so that mean he has to give up everything and let genereals die? just so other countries who are doing the same thing can win?
@FeiTu123 Yizhou was one province, on basic calculations, and estimations. And comparisons, you can total how many troops. Liu Bei on the Yi ling campaign had only 30,000 soldiers at maximum. Silizhou recorded in sanguozhi and Hanshu was said to hold 30,000 troops. And that has a bigger population then Yizhou. Yizhou was one province remember that. Regions next to shu? Wei had Shu on the run and held up in castles. Jiang Wei retreated, and the province was broken through by Wei.
@FeiTu123 Uhm Wei and Wu did not spend a tremendous amount of resources to go on 5 campaigns, which sucked the economy and resources of its land. Wait, Shu's resources, wealth and economy was down the drain with 5 unsuccessfully campaigns by Kongming, and 9 by Jiang Wei. Wei did not kill generals who surrendered. Jaing Wei, the commander in chief, was a prisoner. Plus, the lives of a few generals at the cost of tens of thousands of people?
@MasamuneAzure yes wu waged war with wei and lost tremendously. thats why they retreated. then a civil war with in capital broke out. also there is no way to besure how many troops are in the capital. you cant just calculate. all of these are estimates. and the 5 wars led by kongming the failures were due to generals and because of liushan. had liu had acted more quickly then the war would have been won and had liu shan not pulled back all troops due to rumors the war could have been won..
@FeiTu123 Estimations are MUCH BETTER then Luo guan Zhong throwing a million troop army out of his ass. Kongming LEAD those campaigns, and LOST ALL, you just can't blame your duties on subordinates and be ok with it. You must assume your responsibility. Kongming could not have won. His opponents were equally smart, and powerful atleast.
@MasamuneAzure how do u know their estimates wernt bs as well?
also zhuge liang had plentry of chances of winning the war. they were much smarter and more strageticalyl equipped. there were many chances they could have won but ppl fucked up. such as ur best friend Liu Shan withdrawling the whole army, or delaying battle. or when masu lost jeiting or when meng da messed up
@FeiTu123 KK, first of all Ma Su fucked up cause Kongming put him in a position to fuck up. MA Su had no leadership experience, and Kongming appointed him the general in charge of those forces? Stupid kongming.
Are you seriously trying to say math equations and historical sources are not better then a novelist throwing up a absurd random number?
@MasamuneAzure well kongming told him how to lead but masu didnt folloow his orders...
also how do u write a book about histroy. you look up historical calculations and soucres thats how you write them. and whose to say that their math is 100% correct as well. these histories are not 100% accurate when calculating numbers. back then there was rulers in charge they could have manipulated the sources..
@FeiTu123 First of all. The current Chinese military, doesn't even have a million. A province in china NEVER was recorded to have a million troops. and Shu was made up of one province. Second.. The numbers were checked by actual historians, and these numbers are the best source we have. Third. The numbers from the historical sources don't sound absurd or nonsense. If the number make sense, then it probably was. And what ruler would mess up history for the hell of it?
@MasamuneAzure of course china dont have million soliders now....no one in china or taiwan really care about military...they just care about having fun and shit.
also what numbers were they used huh? numbers written down by those shu wu and wei ppl? or numbers wreitten by themselves..theres no way to be exactly certian
@FeiTu123 Shu did a poor job in keeping historical records. Numbers in that period mostly came from Wei, Wu, And Jin. Yes no way to be exactly certain, but its the closest and most sensible. Is the bible true? is there a God? No 100 percent truth. God, no physcal proof so i could care less. Bible? lots of things were dis proven in the bible so it's not 100 percent true.
@MasamuneAzure wei wu and jin could have been lying as well there was no way to tell...but all we know is that liu shan was usless....his country is being attacked and yet he dosnt do anything to fight back
@FeiTu123 Why would they lie? Your argument about them lieing is a "what if" that is just full a crap. What if all history is wrong? Huh?! all are history is wrong, and i made up everything. See we didn't exist and nothing happened until 2 years ago! If you can't tell im being sarcastic.
@MasamuneAzure they lie because they wanna go down in histroy as one of the best... just like how you wanan go down in youtube history as someone who lived in that era
@MasamuneAzure the sources you look at is wrong. you said earlier its better to sacrafice few generals then to have thousands die? well they are going to die either way...so by my understanding you would sacrafice your family just to have a few of your friends live? instead of finding way to make them all survive? thats cool
@MasamuneAzure either way its his responsibility to lead the way and protect his people family name and followers. zhugeliang was to nice otherwise he could have kicked liu shan and claimed emperor himself like liu bei told him to
@FeiTu123 and he did, by surrendering. The people can now stop the constant wars. Generals are spared. Liu Shan and his family/ministers were not killed. Other then Huang Hao
@MasamuneAzure and its sad...how his father and all those ppl died for nothing....so perhaps wu should have surrundered to wei to avoid all those deaths they caused to ppl...and liu bei should have surrundered in chang bang?
@FeiTu123 his father was ambitious, which caused China to be in utter turmoil. Hitler had ambition to conquer the world, and people have suffered and died from him. Should we have not let him do it? All of hitlers effort, for him to just die? Tsk Tsk. Liu Bei should have surrendered. Ambition over Suffer/pain? no way.
@MasamuneAzure your retarted yellow turbans were rebelling and thats why liu bei went to war. then cao cao killed the emperor and liu bei wanted to destroy rebels...ae you saying they should have yeilded to yellow turban there fore none of thise war would have happened?.....your views and ideas are pathetic...maby in the previous life you were liu shan. :D
@FeiTu123 my views? your the one that says you should be a man and caused suffering, then surrender and allow peace. After the Yellow Turbans, why didn't Liu Bei give up? He didn't he kept fighting so he can conquer china. ALL WARLORDS had this ambition. So STFU. Just because someone says something, doesn't mean they MEAN IT! Man ur 21 years old and you think like a fucken 14 year old tween. BE A MAN KILL OTHERS!! savage..
@MasamuneAzure oh so your saying when japan attack america america should have surrundered and allow violence to continue? and liu bei cao cao sun jian should have peace and allow yellow turbans to kill others....that was way of life back then. liu bei was rightful heir to emperor he was the desedent. cao cao just killed emperor and climed throne. and wu just alllied with shu.
and im not saying its right to kill others you dumbass....im saying when a country is a war they fight for cause
@FeiTu123 America and Japan were fighting for land and territory. America fought back because Japan attacked first by pearl harbor. These are two established countries, japan did not attack to conquer america ,but to destroy its fleet so america won't harm japan. Yellow Turbans were not that violent. A massive uprising by peasants obviously shows, they did not like the government. so it needed to be overthrown.
@FeiTu123 and whats good the emperor? A guy that rules china? Liu Bei was a distant relative, and had no direct lineage to the throne. And how many emperors have been overthrown? MANY! Cao Cao didnt claim emperor. Cao pi did. Emperors is just a guy who rules china, nothing special. And when a country fights a cause as " I'm fighting you cause i wanna be ruler, and not you!" , then it should die.
@MasamuneAzure first of all yellow turbans killed many people and robbed them...
second of all cao cao controlled the emperor and killed at will
third china was divided up...how are you going to settle this? by everyone drawing lots and seeing who surrunders to who? your ideas are stupid and have no point. shu wu and wei were fighting for terriorty to just like usa and japan. each coutnry wants to be number one just like each shu wu and wei wanna be number 1...
@FeiTu123 Yellow Turbans, imperial armies, feudal armies. ALL TROOPS ROBBED AND KILLED.
Cao Cao controlled the emperor yes. Whats your point? The emperor had no power, useless. Just a tool cao cao can use.
ok.. I'm saying that. Instead of fighting a LOST CAUSE like Liu Shan was it's a better choice to SURRENDER. Liu Bei had no chance of destroying Wei even with Wu. Then when Liu Bei passed. All of the good able officers were gone, and so did the resources. Liu Shan had the bad end.
@MasamuneAzure whats my point? by the way you were talking in your previous arguements meant that caocao should have gave up his power just like everyone else. But he didnt and instead controlled emperor to do evil deeds such as murder innocent people.
Who says liu bei had no chance. Liu bei had plenty of chance. he was just to nice and weak. Just his liu shan. His compassion is what caused him to delay his chance of success. Like when liu bao offered him terretory he refused is one example.
@FeiTu123 Liu Bei murdered people as well. Cao Cao had a WAY HIGHER chance of uniting China and was more able to unite it. Liu Bei caring my ass.
No. Cao Cao was solely going to win. He was the obvious power, I said you might as well surrender for a lost cause. Cao Cao could have united China with more success and ease then Liu Bei. Liu Bei was fighting the lost cause.
@MasamuneAzure liu bei murdered ppl but he murdered those who broke law unlike cao cao who killed at will...also liu bei had chance to unite china. He just missed out on those chances cuz he was stupid...just like liu shan.....just like you....
@FeiTu123 Liu Bei beat an official who refused to see him. Don't justify Liu Bei. How many lords did Liu Bei betray? Gongsun Zan, Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, and Lu Bu. Cao Cao i must admit was worse, but Liu Bei was not a hero of virtue and peace or w.e bullsziet. Cao Cao was smarter, and more able commander then Liu Bei, you can't say OH LIU BEI WOULD'VE DONE THIS IS IF HE HAD NOT DONE THIS. Cause chances are there are things that can go wrong, and not always for the better.
@MasamuneAzure so that makes it ok for caocao to use the emperor? that seems to contridict with what you said earlier about how all the countries should just give up and surrunder when someone is in oppision....so your saying its ok to let a tryant kill and rob people? which is funny cuz earlier you gave me a bold lecture about how violence is wrong....
@FeiTu123 OMG ur retarded. I said you MIGHT AS WELL SURRENDER, WHEN ALL IS LOST! American and Japan still have power, and resources to continue a war. I'm saying IF Japan conquered 3/4 of America, and american army is 90 percent wiped out. Then you should surrender. Liu Shan's country was weak, and overan by Wei soldiers when he surrendered. He had a 1 percent chance of winning that war. So he surrendered.
@FeiTu123 first of all, that was not entirely true and please dont refer to the Romance of the three kingdom as that book composed 70 fiction, please read the real history as during that time, that are major corruption within the shu kingdom in which many officials are incompetent to be officials themselves. please read the records of the three kingdom before even comment , fucking pathetic cockcasian.
@FeiTu123 first of all, that was not entirely true and please dont refer to the Romance of the three kingdom as that book composed 70 fiction, please read the real history as during that time, that are major corruption within the shu kingdom in which many officials are incompetent to be officials themselves. please read the records of the three kingdom before even comment , pathetic cockcasian.
@FeiTu123 Uhm. No Liu Shan can't be blamed for this. SHU had like a 3 percent chance of winning. Wei had surpassed their mountain which was Shu's main defense. Wei's army was better equipped, more in numbers, and had better commanders. Jiang Wei was the only real commander that can put up the fight. But sadly, he retreated. Also, you missed my point of the people of Shu was tired of the constant war, Liu Shan surrendered as it was the better option then dieing, dragging a war and e
@FeiTu123 The better option was to surrender, save the lives of his ministers and family, as well as his generals. If they kept on fighting, Sima Zhao would have ordered the execution of families of the Shu generals,ministers, and royal family. You want their children, and wives to die cause Liu Shan was to stubborn to notice he lost? You don't think of actions do you? War causes poverty, hunger, despair, death, to those who were innocent and had nothing to do with it.
@MasamuneAzure liu shan can be blamed because during the beginning of war he didnt do anything....also when zhugeliang died he didnt do anything either. Didnt send soliders didnt appoint genereals...
are you sayin liu bei is the worst? cuz he beat someone? im pretty sure everyone beat someone in their life time. are you saying were all bad ppl? Also he didnt betray yuan shao. Yuan Shao went to war with cao and liu bei at that time was weak...lubu deserved to die he was villian
@FeiTu123 Liu Shan ALLOWED Zhuge Liang to go on his northern campaigns which did nothing for Shu except drain it's resources. Uhm, Liu Shan appointed Zhuge Liang's successor Jiang Wan to be Prime minister, then Dong Yun, and Fei Yi. Jiang Wei was just a military commander.
DID I SAY HE WAS WORST?! Read my fucken comment before you reply. He did betray Yuan Shao no matter how you view it.
@MasamuneAzure and how do you know all this? your opinions are all based on assumptions...its true shu was tired of war. so was wei and wu. but shu failed due to liu shan not being able to command troops and not being able to rule proerly
@FeiTu123 your opinions are based on assumptions saying " THEY COULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE!" When their chances are slim and low, Shu also had the chance of doing alot worst then they did. No No no. Wei and Wu did not spend masses of resources of campaign like Shu did. All countries spent resources on war, Shu spent A tremendous amount.
So it's Liu Shan's fault for not being a competent commander? Really. Hey let's blame gays for not fucking women. That's how your argument goes.
@FeiTu123 And your sticking up for these executions of children/family, innocent, robbing, and such for " Liu Shan not being a man!". Calling me stupid? Why don't you think before you act.
@MasamuneAzure yes that is what i am trying to say, what is your problem, in which i state cao cao is a better commander regardless of the huge loss of chibi and others in which i forgot........also liu bei would be better of if he is a humanitarian rather than a politician or a officals.
@jc290092 Saying the odds were against Liu Bei in all factors. And this Feitu guy's argument is weak, and annoying. He misses my points, and says " Your all assumptions" when it's particularly based on logic, and probability. And he's also being hypocritical, when he's all assumptions, and his assumptions are weak. Sima Zhao would have definitely executed Shu's ministers and what not.
@FeiTu123 Liu Shan uselss? not totally. He just didn't want to rule Shu, and that's not his fault that he has to live up to Liu Bei, when he didn't want to. Liu Shan sent out generals, and Jiang Wei to fight the enemies. They failed. And Liu Shan surrendered when they did.
@MasamuneAzure how do u know he didnt want to? were you there at the time? he was incompentent ruler and the reason jiang wei lost was because he asked liu shan to send forces to help but liu shan refused cuz he didnt want to leave his leisure home there fore causing shu to lose....
@MasamuneAzure the lives of few generals at cost of thousands of ppl? so your saying u would sacrifice ur whole family and children just so other ppl can live? with out even trying to fight and save both ur family and thoswe other ppl?...sad!
@MasamuneAzure also since wei troops entered foreiggn area there is a better chance they will terrorize and cause more problems there then when shu was ruleing because its not their home area
@FeiTu123 Pretty sure, generals such as Zhong Hui, and Deng Ai refrained from looting and killing. Zhong Hui wanted to become the new ruler of Shu, so killing the people would be unlikely. Deng Ai was a fair, and intelligent man who was able to control his troops. So him looting is improbably. Sima Zhao was also there, and making Yizhou their vassal is necessary. Terrorizing the people when your gona want to rule it is not smart either. Improbable.
@FeiTu123 Third, the novel by luo guanzhong is fictional. Many many things in the novel are wrong. Read Sanguozhi, ZZTJ, and other HISTORICAL sources. Liu Shan was advised by the peace enthusiast, Qiao Zhou, to surrender. As Jiang Wei retreated, Wei have marched through Shu, and are outside at the capital. The people have suffered from Kongming's and Jiang Wei's campagin. Surrender was the better option.
@FeiTu123 your facts are entirely wrong, they are no 1 million soldiers over in the capital of chengdu and zhuge liang was not recalled back by the king but by himself due to the drainage of supplies...... in fact, zhuge liang is too overrated in the novel but he is a remarkable man.
@MasamuneAzure but he is a remarkable man, scholars are still debating whenever he invent the multiple crossbow and the walking cow which many scholars are a fiction but one fact remain about him, he is a damn good politician
@jc290092 Versions of the Chu Ko Nu was found in tombs in later dynasties. I think Kongming was credited for modifying the Chu Ku No to shoot multiple arrows at once, like a shotgun crossbow :D. Heard the Walking Cow was just a wheel barrow. Mm Hmm. Master of Retreat, Politics, and Administration.
@MasamuneAzure yes they did you dumbass both wu and wei were at war....wu was beaten heavely by wei and had to retreat due to lack of resources.....that was right before zhuge died. and also zhuge was the one who told liu shan what to do..liu shan didnt know how to govern anyone except play and surrunder ..
@jc290092 most people say zhuge liang was the one who masterminded the attack...but some people also say liu bei was the one who masterminded...by constantly looting and setting fire to cao caos camps
@FeiTu123 actually, zhuge liang is overrated, and the burning of bowangpo is by liu bei and is proven in series of shu documents in the bejing university library archives and please dont argue with the other guy because your points and ideals are not that valid or true, i suggest that you read and research more of this matter when you started arguing because it is getting pathetic.....
@FeiTu123 it is because those people that hate liu chan has not dig up their research on shu history, if you look at this book (ROTK) though the past 600 ages, it was a very propular book in china during the 1700-1800 and some plays like opera were conducted then, hence its popularity grows at which people are so fond in ROTK, they brand a dou as a insult due to the role in the book as he was helpless in chang ban (not entirely his fault) and his act as king
@FeiTu123 plus, the shu kingdom did grows faster when liu chan was there as his father lay the foundations for the shu kingdom. think about this, if this is not true, how can Jiang wei launched 9 campaigns against Wei and if counted smaller campaigns which is recorded in the shu records, (6 more)? in true fact, many historians which are all Chinese stated that liu chan was more a better ruler than his father in terms of being a conservative king.
@FeiTu123 all his father ever did is like cao cao, wanted to restore the han empire like cao cao did but cao cao did it differently, think about this, if you have a ideal society, would you ever give it up to me?? in which this idea implanted in your head is by your father since when you were young........ that is why to this day, people never truly read history properly and analyze it and make assumptions whenever they like it or not.......
and his ideas are true? his ideas are based on attacks on shu, the other kingdoms all had the same flaws as well but he dosnt mention them...all his attacks are based on shu..so mind ur own business faggot
@FeiTu123 I apologize for being mean or harsh when I argue. You have to realize that Rotk Novel is not the greatest source for information on TK era. I suggest you dig up works by Rafe De Crespigny, Sanguozhi, The book of Jin, ZZTJ, and Hanshu. Also discuss with other scholars and fans of TK era, and you will significantly improve on your history, and debating skills. Your insight on articles and information will also increase.
@FeiTu123 Also, I'mma say this for once and all. Campaigns, cost a large sum of money, and resources, as well as time. Wei and Wu DID NOT launch so many campaigns that it drained their economy and wealth. Wei and Wu both only launched at max 5 campaigns on each other, if not less. Shu on the other hand, including Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei had 14 campaigns. That's more then double then Wei and Wu combined. Take note, Shu is a smaller kingdom and has less to their disposal, so Shu was dieing.
@FeiTu123 My ideas? No not ideas. Hypothesis of what IF's. With "What If's" you can't base it on facts because it never happened. You can base your predictions on logic, analysis, estimations, and insight. Your prediction is that if Liu Shan had NOT surrendered, Shu could have had a chance of winning. I argued back saying, the probability of Shu forcing back Wei is LOW, since Shu has no great generals left to match Wei, and Wei outnumbers them.
@jc290092 Nope. French,viet,korean mix. I take interest in East Asian history. The Huns, The Khan, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, and bits of European History.
@MasamuneAzure sweet, i am pure han and my interest is in sanguozhi, napoleon wars, sengoku era, roman history, Macedon history joseon era and the crusaders war.......nice too see someone takes a serious in history
@jc290092 No it really wasn't a big deal. Zhang Lia surrendered to Cao Cao. Guan Yu temporarily did. Ma Chao betrayed his alliance with Cao Cao. Xu Huang defected to Cao Cao. Zhang He, and Gao Lan defected to Cao Cao. Lu Bu attempted a coup alongside Wang Yun. Nearly entire Jing (during Guan Yu's reign) surrendered to Wu during their invasion. Yet nobody gives a fuck.
@MasamuneAzure but you must know that all of this countries are fighting for their ideals on running a country and yet it is pathetic in which three leaders know that they are supposed to preserve the Han dynasty but yet they ruined it very badly....
@jc290092 Nah they just say they want to restore the Han as a political tool, and to justify their cause. Really all three really just wanted to be the Emperor and Ruler of China. But, Like Qiao Zhou I pursue peace over ambition. I know people war to be powerful, every country,people,culture w.e.
People who are saying that Liu Shan caused the downfall of Shu need to actually do some more research. Shu prospered for 30 years under Shan's rule.
A lot of the blame can be put on Jiang Wei, who wasted Shu's men and resources in futile expeditions.
Guan Yu was also to blame. If he hadn't thrown Jing away, Shu would have been in a far better position of strength. That is when Shu was doomed, when Jing was lost.
Liu Shan was part of the problem, but he didn't have much to work with.
I've thought of that before. I remember watching the part where he saves Liu Shan and thinking, "If only he knew that he just caused the downfall of Shu."
He made Shu(I mean whole Han falls) because he been cheated by his side guy and he called Zhuge Liang back when Liang is going to retake Chang An.......bastard Chan!
cao cao is not good military expert since he lose 1m soldiers before and almost kill by guan yu and he dont have much talented men like liu bei do with guan yu and zhang fei and zhu ge liang as for sun quan he good at govering the country but almost lose his country by killing guan yu and his son so i feel that liu bei the best
he let xu shu go and pang tong dead and he too kind which is good. if he had accepts tao qian and other warlord for giving him land, he would have conquer china maybe.
cao cao sometimes is a bit dumb but look in the end he got most china provinces and a big army and more talented people like the two xu shu, xiahou dun and yuan, pang de, xu jin, zhang liao, dian wei but he misuse them.
liu shan is shit, shu should have conquered if liu shan didnt get the throne, zhuge liang should have seized his throne which liu bei tell him if he must, than shu should have won
no, are u dumb, u are the one who is talking shit, i read from shu book which are chinese, can u chinese if not, then shut up, u freaking bitch, u are the one who read wikipedia and play the dw games, those are fake history, read again, u noob so u shut up
if pang tong lived.... zhuge wouldnt had so much stress and so much responsibility and would of had help from both pang tong and jiang wei... then zhuge may have not died and then shu wouldnt have falled to jin. and btw if you people didnt no this pang tongs cousin is pang de and pang de is the one who started to call pang tong fledging pheonix and zhuge liang sleeping dragon =]
What the... pang de is pang tong's cousin where are you getting this? Besides Jin conquered Wei (because of Sima family). And Shu fell to Wei when Wei general Deng Ai and Zhong Hui attacked Han Zhong. Jiang Wei can't hold them back because Liu Chan was listening to corrupted officals and not giving Jiang We enough men and supplies to fend off Wei.
Yes but remember that back then the firstborn had to be the sucessor unless he died before stepping up on the throne. I fucking laughed when i saw how he was depicted here. Some obese retarded man with the iq of a 5 year old. Maybe it was because he was dropped on his head as a kid.
man if liu bei just got his facts straght and listined to zhuge liang shu would been in rule of liu feng and cao rui would of had a hand full with liu feng
Meng Da defected but Liu Feng fled to Cheng Du only to be executed by liu Bei. What happene to Meng Da. I believe it is when Zhuge liang was going for the 1st Northern Expedition, he was plotting MEng Da to defect back to Shu. But Sima Yi smell the scheme and ordered Xu Huang to take Xin Castle (Meng Da's postion). Meng Da was executed by his sub. when he tried to defect back to Shu (they were pro.Wei). When did it happened? 227AD
Some say it is actually Liu Bei's fault that Liu Shan is such an idiotic ruler. Mainly because of the time he threw him when he was a baby when Zhao Yun saved him. Of course those are only rumors haha
some believe that liu shan feign weakness during the banquet with sima zhao in order to save his own life. . . he succeeded and lived to a ripe old age...
i agree with zhugeliang207 fully. He should attend to state affairs. If he had good minsters, the ministers would have stop him from watching these chiecken fights
wtf chicken fight wow they do that just like in thailand
asura0528808 7 months ago
Feel kinda sorry for liu bei
brickstudios1000 10 months ago
LOOK AT THOSE COCKS DUKE IT OUT!!
HarderRocker15 1 year ago
I'm tired of all the hating on Liu Shan. Didn't he rule Shu with peace? Surrendering to Wei instead of fighting a lost cause, putting strain on the common peoples and war/chaos raging the land. Tch.
MasamuneAzure 1 year ago
@MasamuneAzure more like gave up in fear...a real man would fight to the end
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 So a man causes destruction, terror, problems for his people? Why would you fight to the end? When it is inevitable. Might as well give in, let the common people live on life without death and soldiers looting/ even killing.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure no a real man would focus on his country and not waste time playing and grow some balls. Liu shan surrundered because Wei general with couple thousand troops snuck into SHU capital. Even though She had over 1 million troops in the capital. How pathetic is that....Also LiU Shan was one reason the war was lost. He recalled Zhugeliang just as he was about to enter wei capital because someone said Zhuge was going to never come back....thats sad of a man
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 First. Liu Shan ( obviously) was not an ambitious ruler. We cannot blame him for that. Liu Bei automatically put him on the throne. It was not in Liu Shan's personality/aspirations to conquer china. He left that to his ministers, and generals etc.. Second. Shu did not have a million troops in the capital. SHU in total, can only hold a maximum of 50,000 - 100,000 troops. How does the capital alone have 1 million? Wei can't even hold 1 million troops.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure how would you know shu can only hold 50000 to 100000 troops...did you live at that time? also there was other regions next to the capital that had troops to. and like u said hes not ambitious ruler.which is one reason shu lost the war. also its true people suffered. but people suffered in wei and wu as well. so that mean he has to give up everything and let genereals die? just so other countries who are doing the same thing can win?
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Yizhou was one province, on basic calculations, and estimations. And comparisons, you can total how many troops. Liu Bei on the Yi ling campaign had only 30,000 soldiers at maximum. Silizhou recorded in sanguozhi and Hanshu was said to hold 30,000 troops. And that has a bigger population then Yizhou. Yizhou was one province remember that. Regions next to shu? Wei had Shu on the run and held up in castles. Jiang Wei retreated, and the province was broken through by Wei.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Uhm Wei and Wu did not spend a tremendous amount of resources to go on 5 campaigns, which sucked the economy and resources of its land. Wait, Shu's resources, wealth and economy was down the drain with 5 unsuccessfully campaigns by Kongming, and 9 by Jiang Wei. Wei did not kill generals who surrendered. Jaing Wei, the commander in chief, was a prisoner. Plus, the lives of a few generals at the cost of tens of thousands of people?
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure yes wu waged war with wei and lost tremendously. thats why they retreated. then a civil war with in capital broke out. also there is no way to besure how many troops are in the capital. you cant just calculate. all of these are estimates. and the 5 wars led by kongming the failures were due to generals and because of liushan. had liu had acted more quickly then the war would have been won and had liu shan not pulled back all troops due to rumors the war could have been won..
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Estimations are MUCH BETTER then Luo guan Zhong throwing a million troop army out of his ass. Kongming LEAD those campaigns, and LOST ALL, you just can't blame your duties on subordinates and be ok with it. You must assume your responsibility. Kongming could not have won. His opponents were equally smart, and powerful atleast.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure how do u know their estimates wernt bs as well?
also zhuge liang had plentry of chances of winning the war. they were much smarter and more strageticalyl equipped. there were many chances they could have won but ppl fucked up. such as ur best friend Liu Shan withdrawling the whole army, or delaying battle. or when masu lost jeiting or when meng da messed up
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 KK, first of all Ma Su fucked up cause Kongming put him in a position to fuck up. MA Su had no leadership experience, and Kongming appointed him the general in charge of those forces? Stupid kongming.
Are you seriously trying to say math equations and historical sources are not better then a novelist throwing up a absurd random number?
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure well kongming told him how to lead but masu didnt folloow his orders...
also how do u write a book about histroy. you look up historical calculations and soucres thats how you write them. and whose to say that their math is 100% correct as well. these histories are not 100% accurate when calculating numbers. back then there was rulers in charge they could have manipulated the sources..
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 First of all. The current Chinese military, doesn't even have a million. A province in china NEVER was recorded to have a million troops. and Shu was made up of one province. Second.. The numbers were checked by actual historians, and these numbers are the best source we have. Third. The numbers from the historical sources don't sound absurd or nonsense. If the number make sense, then it probably was. And what ruler would mess up history for the hell of it?
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure of course china dont have million soliders now....no one in china or taiwan really care about military...they just care about having fun and shit.
also what numbers were they used huh? numbers written down by those shu wu and wei ppl? or numbers wreitten by themselves..theres no way to be exactly certian
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Shu did a poor job in keeping historical records. Numbers in that period mostly came from Wei, Wu, And Jin. Yes no way to be exactly certain, but its the closest and most sensible. Is the bible true? is there a God? No 100 percent truth. God, no physcal proof so i could care less. Bible? lots of things were dis proven in the bible so it's not 100 percent true.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure wei wu and jin could have been lying as well there was no way to tell...but all we know is that liu shan was usless....his country is being attacked and yet he dosnt do anything to fight back
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Why would they lie? Your argument about them lieing is a "what if" that is just full a crap. What if all history is wrong? Huh?! all are history is wrong, and i made up everything. See we didn't exist and nothing happened until 2 years ago! If you can't tell im being sarcastic.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure they lie because they wanna go down in histroy as one of the best... just like how you wanan go down in youtube history as someone who lived in that era
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 So them reducing their enemies numbers would make them look more good? No. It's the opposite.
Haha funny. Seeing as I analyze information, and read historical sources. Unlike you.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure the sources you look at is wrong. you said earlier its better to sacrafice few generals then to have thousands die? well they are going to die either way...so by my understanding you would sacrafice your family just to have a few of your friends live? instead of finding way to make them all survive? thats cool
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure either way its his responsibility to lead the way and protect his people family name and followers. zhugeliang was to nice otherwise he could have kicked liu shan and claimed emperor himself like liu bei told him to
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 and he did, by surrendering. The people can now stop the constant wars. Generals are spared. Liu Shan and his family/ministers were not killed. Other then Huang Hao
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure and its sad...how his father and all those ppl died for nothing....so perhaps wu should have surrundered to wei to avoid all those deaths they caused to ppl...and liu bei should have surrundered in chang bang?
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 his father was ambitious, which caused China to be in utter turmoil. Hitler had ambition to conquer the world, and people have suffered and died from him. Should we have not let him do it? All of hitlers effort, for him to just die? Tsk Tsk. Liu Bei should have surrendered. Ambition over Suffer/pain? no way.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure your retarted yellow turbans were rebelling and thats why liu bei went to war. then cao cao killed the emperor and liu bei wanted to destroy rebels...ae you saying they should have yeilded to yellow turban there fore none of thise war would have happened?.....your views and ideas are pathetic...maby in the previous life you were liu shan. :D
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 my views? your the one that says you should be a man and caused suffering, then surrender and allow peace. After the Yellow Turbans, why didn't Liu Bei give up? He didn't he kept fighting so he can conquer china. ALL WARLORDS had this ambition. So STFU. Just because someone says something, doesn't mean they MEAN IT! Man ur 21 years old and you think like a fucken 14 year old tween. BE A MAN KILL OTHERS!! savage..
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure oh so your saying when japan attack america america should have surrundered and allow violence to continue? and liu bei cao cao sun jian should have peace and allow yellow turbans to kill others....that was way of life back then. liu bei was rightful heir to emperor he was the desedent. cao cao just killed emperor and climed throne. and wu just alllied with shu.
and im not saying its right to kill others you dumbass....im saying when a country is a war they fight for cause
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 America and Japan were fighting for land and territory. America fought back because Japan attacked first by pearl harbor. These are two established countries, japan did not attack to conquer america ,but to destroy its fleet so america won't harm japan. Yellow Turbans were not that violent. A massive uprising by peasants obviously shows, they did not like the government. so it needed to be overthrown.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 and whats good the emperor? A guy that rules china? Liu Bei was a distant relative, and had no direct lineage to the throne. And how many emperors have been overthrown? MANY! Cao Cao didnt claim emperor. Cao pi did. Emperors is just a guy who rules china, nothing special. And when a country fights a cause as " I'm fighting you cause i wanna be ruler, and not you!" , then it should die.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure first of all yellow turbans killed many people and robbed them...
second of all cao cao controlled the emperor and killed at will
third china was divided up...how are you going to settle this? by everyone drawing lots and seeing who surrunders to who? your ideas are stupid and have no point. shu wu and wei were fighting for terriorty to just like usa and japan. each coutnry wants to be number one just like each shu wu and wei wanna be number 1...
dumbass.
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Yellow Turbans, imperial armies, feudal armies. ALL TROOPS ROBBED AND KILLED.
Cao Cao controlled the emperor yes. Whats your point? The emperor had no power, useless. Just a tool cao cao can use.
ok.. I'm saying that. Instead of fighting a LOST CAUSE like Liu Shan was it's a better choice to SURRENDER. Liu Bei had no chance of destroying Wei even with Wu. Then when Liu Bei passed. All of the good able officers were gone, and so did the resources. Liu Shan had the bad end.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure whats my point? by the way you were talking in your previous arguements meant that caocao should have gave up his power just like everyone else. But he didnt and instead controlled emperor to do evil deeds such as murder innocent people.
Who says liu bei had no chance. Liu bei had plenty of chance. he was just to nice and weak. Just his liu shan. His compassion is what caused him to delay his chance of success. Like when liu bao offered him terretory he refused is one example.
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Liu Bei murdered people as well. Cao Cao had a WAY HIGHER chance of uniting China and was more able to unite it. Liu Bei caring my ass.
No. Cao Cao was solely going to win. He was the obvious power, I said you might as well surrender for a lost cause. Cao Cao could have united China with more success and ease then Liu Bei. Liu Bei was fighting the lost cause.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure liu bei murdered ppl but he murdered those who broke law unlike cao cao who killed at will...also liu bei had chance to unite china. He just missed out on those chances cuz he was stupid...just like liu shan.....just like you....
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Liu Bei beat an official who refused to see him. Don't justify Liu Bei. How many lords did Liu Bei betray? Gongsun Zan, Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, and Lu Bu. Cao Cao i must admit was worse, but Liu Bei was not a hero of virtue and peace or w.e bullsziet. Cao Cao was smarter, and more able commander then Liu Bei, you can't say OH LIU BEI WOULD'VE DONE THIS IS IF HE HAD NOT DONE THIS. Cause chances are there are things that can go wrong, and not always for the better.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure so that makes it ok for caocao to use the emperor? that seems to contridict with what you said earlier about how all the countries should just give up and surrunder when someone is in oppision....so your saying its ok to let a tryant kill and rob people? which is funny cuz earlier you gave me a bold lecture about how violence is wrong....
also cap locks dosnt emphasize anything.....
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 OMG ur retarded. I said you MIGHT AS WELL SURRENDER, WHEN ALL IS LOST! American and Japan still have power, and resources to continue a war. I'm saying IF Japan conquered 3/4 of America, and american army is 90 percent wiped out. Then you should surrender. Liu Shan's country was weak, and overan by Wei soldiers when he surrendered. He had a 1 percent chance of winning that war. So he surrendered.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure but all was not lost....liu shan's stupidity lost the war...due to him surrundering. had he not surrundered they still had chance
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 first of all, that was not entirely true and please dont refer to the Romance of the three kingdom as that book composed 70 fiction, please read the real history as during that time, that are major corruption within the shu kingdom in which many officials are incompetent to be officials themselves. please read the records of the three kingdom before even comment , fucking pathetic cockcasian.
jc290092 10 months ago
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@FeiTu123 first of all, that was not entirely true and please dont refer to the Romance of the three kingdom as that book composed 70 fiction, please read the real history as during that time, that are major corruption within the shu kingdom in which many officials are incompetent to be officials themselves. please read the records of the three kingdom before even comment , pathetic cockcasian.
jc290092 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Uhm. No Liu Shan can't be blamed for this. SHU had like a 3 percent chance of winning. Wei had surpassed their mountain which was Shu's main defense. Wei's army was better equipped, more in numbers, and had better commanders. Jiang Wei was the only real commander that can put up the fight. But sadly, he retreated. Also, you missed my point of the people of Shu was tired of the constant war, Liu Shan surrendered as it was the better option then dieing, dragging a war and e
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 The better option was to surrender, save the lives of his ministers and family, as well as his generals. If they kept on fighting, Sima Zhao would have ordered the execution of families of the Shu generals,ministers, and royal family. You want their children, and wives to die cause Liu Shan was to stubborn to notice he lost? You don't think of actions do you? War causes poverty, hunger, despair, death, to those who were innocent and had nothing to do with it.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure liu shan can be blamed because during the beginning of war he didnt do anything....also when zhugeliang died he didnt do anything either. Didnt send soliders didnt appoint genereals...
are you sayin liu bei is the worst? cuz he beat someone? im pretty sure everyone beat someone in their life time. are you saying were all bad ppl? Also he didnt betray yuan shao. Yuan Shao went to war with cao and liu bei at that time was weak...lubu deserved to die he was villian
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Liu Shan ALLOWED Zhuge Liang to go on his northern campaigns which did nothing for Shu except drain it's resources. Uhm, Liu Shan appointed Zhuge Liang's successor Jiang Wan to be Prime minister, then Dong Yun, and Fei Yi. Jiang Wei was just a military commander.
DID I SAY HE WAS WORST?! Read my fucken comment before you reply. He did betray Yuan Shao no matter how you view it.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure you seem to be very angry...perhaps you were dong zhou in previous life
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure and how do you know all this? your opinions are all based on assumptions...its true shu was tired of war. so was wei and wu. but shu failed due to liu shan not being able to command troops and not being able to rule proerly
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 your opinions are based on assumptions saying " THEY COULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE!" When their chances are slim and low, Shu also had the chance of doing alot worst then they did. No No no. Wei and Wu did not spend masses of resources of campaign like Shu did. All countries spent resources on war, Shu spent A tremendous amount.
So it's Liu Shan's fault for not being a competent commander? Really. Hey let's blame gays for not fucking women. That's how your argument goes.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 And your sticking up for these executions of children/family, innocent, robbing, and such for " Liu Shan not being a man!". Calling me stupid? Why don't you think before you act.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure actually liu bei do have the chance, it is just that cao cao did it better and far more efficient.....................
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 Liu Bei had chances, but their slim and low. Cao Cao was smarter, and better overall commander, and had more to his disposal.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure yes that is what i am trying to say, what is your problem, in which i state cao cao is a better commander regardless of the huge loss of chibi and others in which i forgot........also liu bei would be better of if he is a humanitarian rather than a politician or a officals.
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 Saying the odds were against Liu Bei in all factors. And this Feitu guy's argument is weak, and annoying. He misses my points, and says " Your all assumptions" when it's particularly based on logic, and probability. And he's also being hypocritical, when he's all assumptions, and his assumptions are weak. Sima Zhao would have definitely executed Shu's ministers and what not.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure are you saying people should not be ambitious and always yeild when otheres are competing? your weak and stupid person
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Liu Shan uselss? not totally. He just didn't want to rule Shu, and that's not his fault that he has to live up to Liu Bei, when he didn't want to. Liu Shan sent out generals, and Jiang Wei to fight the enemies. They failed. And Liu Shan surrendered when they did.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure how do u know he didnt want to? were you there at the time? he was incompentent ruler and the reason jiang wei lost was because he asked liu shan to send forces to help but liu shan refused cuz he didnt want to leave his leisure home there fore causing shu to lose....
your scarcasam is as funny as ur arguements
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Chinese government care about military.. alot.. so does india.. but thats another discussion.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 also, Wu DID NOT DRAIN THEIR ECONOMY AND RESOURCES ON MULTIPLE CAMPAIGNS.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure the lives of few generals at cost of thousands of ppl? so your saying u would sacrifice ur whole family and children just so other ppl can live? with out even trying to fight and save both ur family and thoswe other ppl?...sad!
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 You would rather kill a thousand people then a few of your followers who were doomed to die or be captured anyways? Pathetic.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure also since wei troops entered foreiggn area there is a better chance they will terrorize and cause more problems there then when shu was ruleing because its not their home area
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Pretty sure, generals such as Zhong Hui, and Deng Ai refrained from looting and killing. Zhong Hui wanted to become the new ruler of Shu, so killing the people would be unlikely. Deng Ai was a fair, and intelligent man who was able to control his troops. So him looting is improbably. Sima Zhao was also there, and making Yizhou their vassal is necessary. Terrorizing the people when your gona want to rule it is not smart either. Improbable.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Third, the novel by luo guanzhong is fictional. Many many things in the novel are wrong. Read Sanguozhi, ZZTJ, and other HISTORICAL sources. Liu Shan was advised by the peace enthusiast, Qiao Zhou, to surrender. As Jiang Wei retreated, Wei have marched through Shu, and are outside at the capital. The people have suffered from Kongming's and Jiang Wei's campagin. Surrender was the better option.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 your facts are entirely wrong, they are no 1 million soldiers over in the capital of chengdu and zhuge liang was not recalled back by the king but by himself due to the drainage of supplies...... in fact, zhuge liang is too overrated in the novel but he is a remarkable man.
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 Agreed. Zhuge Liang was talented for sure. But certainly no Master of Offensive Warfare, and magic man.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure but he is a remarkable man, scholars are still debating whenever he invent the multiple crossbow and the walking cow which many scholars are a fiction but one fact remain about him, he is a damn good politician
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 Versions of the Chu Ko Nu was found in tombs in later dynasties. I think Kongming was credited for modifying the Chu Ku No to shoot multiple arrows at once, like a shotgun crossbow :D. Heard the Walking Cow was just a wheel barrow. Mm Hmm. Master of Retreat, Politics, and Administration.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure yes they did you dumbass both wu and wei were at war....wu was beaten heavely by wei and had to retreat due to lack of resources.....that was right before zhuge died. and also zhuge was the one who told liu shan what to do..liu shan didnt know how to govern anyone except play and surrunder ..
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 anyway. do you know who is the mastermind of the battle of bowangpo??
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 most people say zhuge liang was the one who masterminded the attack...but some people also say liu bei was the one who masterminded...by constantly looting and setting fire to cao caos camps
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 actually, zhuge liang is overrated, and the burning of bowangpo is by liu bei and is proven in series of shu documents in the bejing university library archives and please dont argue with the other guy because your points and ideals are not that valid or true, i suggest that you read and research more of this matter when you started arguing because it is getting pathetic.....
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 if my arguement is pathetic then why do so many people hate liu shan? why is a dou an insult?
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 it is because those people that hate liu chan has not dig up their research on shu history, if you look at this book (ROTK) though the past 600 ages, it was a very propular book in china during the 1700-1800 and some plays like opera were conducted then, hence its popularity grows at which people are so fond in ROTK, they brand a dou as a insult due to the role in the book as he was helpless in chang ban (not entirely his fault) and his act as king
jc290092 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 plus, the shu kingdom did grows faster when liu chan was there as his father lay the foundations for the shu kingdom. think about this, if this is not true, how can Jiang wei launched 9 campaigns against Wei and if counted smaller campaigns which is recorded in the shu records, (6 more)? in true fact, many historians which are all Chinese stated that liu chan was more a better ruler than his father in terms of being a conservative king.
jc290092 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 all his father ever did is like cao cao, wanted to restore the han empire like cao cao did but cao cao did it differently, think about this, if you have a ideal society, would you ever give it up to me?? in which this idea implanted in your head is by your father since when you were young........ that is why to this day, people never truly read history properly and analyze it and make assumptions whenever they like it or not.......
jc290092 10 months ago
and his ideas are true? his ideas are based on attacks on shu, the other kingdoms all had the same flaws as well but he dosnt mention them...all his attacks are based on shu..so mind ur own business faggot
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 I apologize for being mean or harsh when I argue. You have to realize that Rotk Novel is not the greatest source for information on TK era. I suggest you dig up works by Rafe De Crespigny, Sanguozhi, The book of Jin, ZZTJ, and Hanshu. Also discuss with other scholars and fans of TK era, and you will significantly improve on your history, and debating skills. Your insight on articles and information will also increase.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 Also, I'mma say this for once and all. Campaigns, cost a large sum of money, and resources, as well as time. Wei and Wu DID NOT launch so many campaigns that it drained their economy and wealth. Wei and Wu both only launched at max 5 campaigns on each other, if not less. Shu on the other hand, including Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei had 14 campaigns. That's more then double then Wei and Wu combined. Take note, Shu is a smaller kingdom and has less to their disposal, so Shu was dieing.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@FeiTu123 My ideas? No not ideas. Hypothesis of what IF's. With "What If's" you can't base it on facts because it never happened. You can base your predictions on logic, analysis, estimations, and insight. Your prediction is that if Liu Shan had NOT surrendered, Shu could have had a chance of winning. I argued back saying, the probability of Shu forcing back Wei is LOW, since Shu has no great generals left to match Wei, and Wei outnumbers them.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure anyway, are you chinese??
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 Nope. French,viet,korean mix. I take interest in East Asian history. The Huns, The Khan, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, and bits of European History.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure sweet, i am pure han and my interest is in sanguozhi, napoleon wars, sengoku era, roman history, Macedon history joseon era and the crusaders war.......nice too see someone takes a serious in history
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 I'm learning/studying the Napoleon wars, and Joseon Era. Perhaps you can show me some credible information.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure well, sure whenever you need me
jc290092 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure and i apologize to for swearing and such...these history is really interesting to read into...more interesting then american..
FeiTu123 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure yes, this is true in one particular case but you must know during that time, shame and horror are a integrity.
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 No it really wasn't a big deal. Zhang Lia surrendered to Cao Cao. Guan Yu temporarily did. Ma Chao betrayed his alliance with Cao Cao. Xu Huang defected to Cao Cao. Zhang He, and Gao Lan defected to Cao Cao. Lu Bu attempted a coup alongside Wang Yun. Nearly entire Jing (during Guan Yu's reign) surrendered to Wu during their invasion. Yet nobody gives a fuck.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
@MasamuneAzure but you must know that all of this countries are fighting for their ideals on running a country and yet it is pathetic in which three leaders know that they are supposed to preserve the Han dynasty but yet they ruined it very badly....
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 Nah they just say they want to restore the Han as a political tool, and to justify their cause. Really all three really just wanted to be the Emperor and Ruler of China. But, Like Qiao Zhou I pursue peace over ambition. I know people war to be powerful, every country,people,culture w.e.
MasamuneAzure 10 months ago
If only Zhao Yun wasn't so brave and awesome...
david1909 1 year ago
@david1909 please dont refer to the battle of changban, it is entirely fictional and so does you, pathetic and shit
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 no need for the insulting
david1909 10 months ago
@david1909 it is because you are wrong, cockcasian....
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 you know you won't get anywhere in life being a douche, right?
david1909 10 months ago
@david1909 and you know that you wont gain knowledge if you are being ignorant right, whitey??
jc290092 10 months ago
@jc290092 I'm not ignorant... my original comment was just a joke. Don't assume things
david1909 10 months ago
He's pretty embarrassing, but I'd still take him over today's politicians.
JiangZiyaTabooDays 1 year ago
People who are saying that Liu Shan caused the downfall of Shu need to actually do some more research. Shu prospered for 30 years under Shan's rule.
A lot of the blame can be put on Jiang Wei, who wasted Shu's men and resources in futile expeditions.
Guan Yu was also to blame. If he hadn't thrown Jing away, Shu would have been in a far better position of strength. That is when Shu was doomed, when Jing was lost.
Liu Shan was part of the problem, but he didn't have much to work with.
fazz2052 2 years ago
he is not fit to become an emperor of shu han
if i'm the emperor of shu han,i believe shu han will restore the han dynasty
TheDorigo 2 years ago
Zhao Yun should have left him at chang ban
ElFlea0 2 years ago
@ElFlea0 No He Did Not Zhao Yun Rules Liu Chan Sucks Hes Just Stupid And Weak
SonicPower8000 1 year ago
@SonicPower8000 Liu Chan is weak and childish.
Linaopek 1 year ago
Great job Zhao Yun you caused Shu's downfall by saving this man (what horrible Ironic Outcome this has been).
caozhou 2 years ago
@caozhou shut up, read your fucking history, pathetic white people
jc290092 10 months ago
the actor is doing a good job lol, look at Liu Shan lol, he is so...cute lol
IFuckUBitch 2 years ago
How can someone like Liu Bei have Liu Shan as a son? It would have been better if Lady Sun have taken Liu Shan back to wu.
sorsorer132 2 years ago
Zhao Yun should have dumped him at the well lol
masterace088 2 years ago 16
I've thought of that before. I remember watching the part where he saves Liu Shan and thinking, "If only he knew that he just caused the downfall of Shu."
JurkeyTURKEYwait 2 years ago
@masterace088 the second chance would be throwing him in the yangtse river when lady sun wanted to take him to east wu
CunardProductions94 1 year ago
By what he was saying...he's enjoying this, isn't he .__.
cannisterkid 3 years ago 2
He made Shu(I mean whole Han falls) because he been cheated by his side guy and he called Zhuge Liang back when Liang is going to retake Chang An.......bastard Chan!
cjandgunner35 3 years ago
O he's like a cute babY~Sweet but SUX BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
cjandgunner35 3 years ago
the first time it shows liu shan in the series he is skiny then all this sudden hes fat as hell
CountDraculer 3 years ago 6
Chengdu food must be very good lol
masterace088 2 years ago 9
Liu chan iq=-0.000000000000000000011111
His intelligence is an epic fail.
But there are historians who disaree with me.
Xiejiachen 3 years ago
can u explain clearer of wat u mean by quanity vs quality , with history showing quanity>quality
EliteTaoist 3 years ago
cao pi and sun quan are better successors than liu chan....
lilbro987 3 years ago 2
yep, i agree, even in true history, but the best empeoror of all is cao cao
mzrkyh08 3 years ago
cao cao not really the best emperor of all
EliteTaoist 3 years ago
then who is the best emperor
i prefer cao cao
mzrkyh08 3 years ago
there no best emperor each have each strong point and weakness
EliteTaoist 3 years ago
you are right actually
sun quan is more of govering the country
liu bei is more of governing the people not the goverment itelf
and cao cao is a good miltirary expert for his descicion
but i myself think that cao cao is the best
mzrkyh08 3 years ago
cao cao is not good military expert since he lose 1m soldiers before and almost kill by guan yu and he dont have much talented men like liu bei do with guan yu and zhang fei and zhu ge liang as for sun quan he good at govering the country but almost lose his country by killing guan yu and his son so i feel that liu bei the best
EliteTaoist 3 years ago
yeah u are right
but i fell that liu bei is too kinds
he let xu shu go and pang tong dead and he too kind which is good. if he had accepts tao qian and other warlord for giving him land, he would have conquer china maybe.
cao cao sometimes is a bit dumb but look in the end he got most china provinces and a big army and more talented people like the two xu shu, xiahou dun and yuan, pang de, xu jin, zhang liao, dian wei but he misuse them.
u are good and can i add u as friends
mzrkyh08 3 years ago
sure and xu shu not really loyal to caocao and those talented people from cao cao not really can beat up liu bei so call 5 tiger general
EliteTaoist 3 years ago
u are just good
mzrkyh08 3 years ago
u guys are all dumb cao cao was never actually an emperor. end of discussion. Unless ur talking about his title after he died but i doubt you are
byrontang 3 years ago
cao cao had more talent but not as exceptional. Quanity vs quality, with history showing quanity>quality
byrontang 3 years ago
liu shan is shit, shu should have conquered if liu shan didnt get the throne, zhuge liang should have seized his throne which liu bei tell him if he must, than shu should have won
mzrkyh08 3 years ago
no, are u dumb, u are the one who is talking shit, i read from shu book which are chinese, can u chinese if not, then shut up, u freaking bitch, u are the one who read wikipedia and play the dw games, those are fake history, read again, u noob so u shut up
mzrkyh08 3 years ago
liu chans iq:2
machao95 3 years ago
liu chan was inexperienced, but he wasn't fat; he was very stupid though
rinwhr 3 years ago
Sure also had Wu the right leader after Sun Quan, the Sima family had never become emperor's for China
mapitu 3 years ago
if pang tong lived.... zhuge wouldnt had so much stress and so much responsibility and would of had help from both pang tong and jiang wei... then zhuge may have not died and then shu wouldnt have falled to jin. and btw if you people didnt no this pang tongs cousin is pang de and pang de is the one who started to call pang tong fledging pheonix and zhuge liang sleeping dragon =]
salxl1 3 years ago
What the... pang de is pang tong's cousin where are you getting this? Besides Jin conquered Wei (because of Sima family). And Shu fell to Wei when Wei general Deng Ai and Zhong Hui attacked Han Zhong. Jiang Wei can't hold them back because Liu Chan was listening to corrupted officals and not giving Jiang We enough men and supplies to fend off Wei.
clevelandhighschool 3 years ago
Thats true.
sven95 3 years ago
If Liu Shan dies early & let his son take over his thone, then Shu will win.
djz870 4 years ago
Yes but remember that back then the firstborn had to be the sucessor unless he died before stepping up on the throne. I fucking laughed when i saw how he was depicted here. Some obese retarded man with the iq of a 5 year old. Maybe it was because he was dropped on his head as a kid.
sven95 4 years ago
man if liu bei just got his facts straght and listined to zhuge liang shu would been in rule of liu feng and cao rui would of had a hand full with liu feng
caozhou 4 years ago
If I remember correctly zhuge liang actually advised Liu Bei to get rid of Liu Feng
Midair 4 years ago
Wasn't it Zhao Yun that was against Liu Bei's plan to avenge his sworn brothers which caused his death?
ViralPhoenix 4 years ago
Liu Feng was the guy that didn't send reinforcement to Guan Yu when was surrounded and decided to defect to wei with Meng Da
gregar123 4 years ago
Meng Da defected but Liu Feng fled to Cheng Du only to be executed by liu Bei. What happene to Meng Da. I believe it is when Zhuge liang was going for the 1st Northern Expedition, he was plotting MEng Da to defect back to Shu. But Sima Yi smell the scheme and ordered Xu Huang to take Xin Castle (Meng Da's postion). Meng Da was executed by his sub. when he tried to defect back to Shu (they were pro.Wei). When did it happened? 227AD
clevelandhighschool 3 years ago
liu shan mother lady gan step mother lady sun
doncaster24 4 years ago
Some say it is actually Liu Bei's fault that Liu Shan is such an idiotic ruler. Mainly because of the time he threw him when he was a baby when Zhao Yun saved him. Of course those are only rumors haha
Midair 4 years ago
LIU SHAN is a disgrace to shu and his father liu feng would been a better emperor
caozhou 4 years ago
some believe that liu shan feign weakness during the banquet with sima zhao in order to save his own life. . . he succeeded and lived to a ripe old age...
MickeyToss 4 years ago
i agree with zhugeliang207 fully. He should attend to state affairs. If he had good minsters, the ministers would have stop him from watching these chiecken fights
jere1592468 4 years ago 3
uhm, matthew, I would disagree. The emperor, Liu Shan would rather watch chickens fight than think about how to serve his country best.
zhugeliang207 4 years ago 2
LOL I REMEMBER WATCHING THIS PART when i was watching the series, i remember i was so ashamed of shu at that point LOL
byrontang 4 years ago