Borrowing into submission?

[XionXXXX]

Seems the IMF decides who gets to live and who has to die.

[ITwarriorTI]

Rothschild= Ultimate money system.

There is no capitalism, no socialism, no communism, there is the Rothschild.

Before you argue spend more than 10 minute researching and please.. don't use wikipedia, thank you.

[Revolucionario02]

The IMF is a cancer we as humans have to eradicate it if we are going to survive as species.

[Bigmartinno1]

Capitalism = NWO

[fossilman2]

Book: 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' (Perkins)

[flatl1n3]

An amazing eye opener. Also read "Secret History of The American Empire" Perkins

[truthsabre7]

Book...Road to Serdom.

[kidjr27]

Is that Michelle Obama at 1:12?

[radtex03]

Despite what is being said back and forth in the comments section here, in this video most of the sppeakers are correct. The IMF generally has corporations waiting in the wings to take over many utilities. Also, what is not mentioned in the video is that while many of the south east asain countries did get raw deals, multiple south and central american countries had a similar situation (this is why they are forming their own lending group).

[fallingrateofprofit]

Get on your fucking knees. this is check mate. Whats in store when this is implemented through out the globe?

[winbri5]

IMF the cause of poverty through its corrupt lending practices....World Bank also...time to get rid of the banking gangsters and perhaps we will have a better chance at the peace and prosperity the world desires!

[17Spartacus76]

Sorry RealNews, I had great hopes for you but it seems you've turned yourself into a mouthpiece for socialism and government control over every aspect of our lives. You've lost a subscriber.

[CptCrash21]

I don't think you understood the actual point of this segment.

[17Spartacus76]

I understood it perfectly, which is why I'm criticizing TRN now. They've become as one-sided and propagandistic as Fox News.

[SandCmpbll]

where exactly did you get that idea? They are talking about the IMF--which I think is huge fraud....but how is that socialism when they are lending money to other countries....sometimes with policy conditions. Where is the socialism you're talking about? Anyway, capitalism and socialism are just varying forms of governemt. Whether you're aware or not, the U.S. is mix of both...schools, public services/works, police, fire departments, medicare/medicaid...the postal service...

[17Spartacus76]

This is a cumulative problem, I've followed TheRealNews ever since they started and they've taken the position that the government must control everything in order to keep us safe, a position that has no historical backing whatsoever. The latino gentleman in this video was spouting complete nonsense the entire time and the news station has been supporting people of this opinion for a long time now. There is positively no balance in their coverage anymore, I won't support such a slanted corp.

[17Spartacus76]

Furthermore, the IMF was created by governments at bretton woods. It's an international version of the federal reserve, which is a socialist construct. Just read the Communist Manifesto. Central banking is progressively destroying the working class and all this station is doing now is distracting from the real issues and advocating for more of what got us into this mess.

I also see that you're wholly ignorant of what capitalism is. It exists regardless of whether or not there is a gov.

[SandCmpbll]

Actually, there is no need to be so pompous. This little tit for tat business where you slam someone with cutesy remarks doesn't encourage dialouge.  It strangles it. Look, my minor was pol science and I may have forgotten a lot of principles, but I'm wholly aware of what capitalism is. And next time if you want to share information with someone try a little less salt next time. Sugar tastes much better.

[17Spartacus76]

It's been my experience that people who don't know much about what they're talking about are quick to start accusing those who do, that they're pompous know it alls. Please re-evaluate your own knowledge of this subject. Capitalism is a process brought about by human action and has been going on since the beginning of time. The correct word you're looking for is Corporatism (ie. fascism, a form of socialism).

Socialism = Government ownership/control of capital.

[JSparkleZ2]

Perhaps you should take your own advice and learn what you are, in fact, talking about...

Socialism is collective ownership of all property where by all people own everything under egalitarian principles...

What you're refering to is Russian Communism whereby Marx's original idea was co-opted and perverted by greed and government officials, although implementing communism did a great deal of good for Russia both economically and socially...

[17Spartacus76]

"Socialism is collective ownership"

the collective = the state

my definition stands

"implementing communism did a great deal of good for Russia"

20 million dead Russians say you're a fool and a liar.

[polyzygote]

the collective = the state

according to whom? where did you get this ridiculous definition? some kinds of collectivists like marxist communists advocated state power in order to achieve their collectivist ends. that does not mean that the collective = the state. nice try

[17Spartacus76]

"according to whom?"

all of recorded history

there is no other possible candidate for 'the collective'

either capital is owned by individuals, or a state

you can't invent some ephemeral, abstract called 'the collective' and then not even define what that is

either speak consistently and accurately, or don't waste my time.

[polyzygote]

"all of recorded history", you'll have to do better than that or you are just wasting everybody's time. why limit ourselves to recorded history, which is only a small fraction of humanity's time on earth? hunter gatherers were not capitalists, and human beings evolved for millions of years as hunter gatherers.

you are so brainwashed that you believe that there is only one possible way humans can exist, and that is through mediation by capital. there is such a thing as a collective w/o capital.

[17Spartacus76]

"you'll have to do better than that"

You'll have to refute me first.

"hunter gatherers were not capitalists"

What do you think those spears and rock tools were?

"there is only one possible way humans can exist"

It's called being free, and it works. All of human history is a testament that free peoples produce greater prosperity and lift more people out of poverty than any other system ever devised. Why you disagree is beyond comprehension.

[polyzygote]

i see you still haven't answered my question about fascists having killed socialists, and about capitalists making magnificent profits under fascism. until then you show yourself to be just a mouth piece for an irrational neoliberal ideology. any freedoms that you now enjoy, were won by people fighting capitalism, but you have been thoroughly brianwashed to believe the opposite. it's quite an impressive feat for the propagandists, i'l have to give it to them.

[17Spartacus76]

Yes I did answer it, read my posts again, and the link while you're at it and stop being so lazy. You're beginning to sound like a creationist nutjob.

I hate neoliberals you idiot.

You mean people fighting socialism (ie. fascist germany, spain, italy, USSR etc.).

You've been brainwashed into thinking that corporatism = capitalism. Google the two words and look at their definitions, I dare you. Otherwise it'll become clear to everyone who the real brainwashee is.

[polyzygote]

i understand perfectly the difference between corporatism and capitalism. in the real world however when people say capitalism they mean corporatism. if you want to talk about true freemarket capitalism you'll have to do it in an academic setting because that is the only place it has ever existed. if you want to talk about what people who called themselves capitalists were doing during nazi germany, then maybe we can have an intelligent discussion.

[17Spartacus76]

"i understand perfectly the difference"

Then stop using them as if they refer to the same thing. You've just wasted this entire discussion by putting up a phony argument. If you know the difference then you know damned well that corporatism=fascism and is a form of socialism. I don't care what people call themselves, I care about what they do. I also use proper terminology, you should too and you'll avoid these problems in the future.

[polyzygote]

"hunter gatherers were not capitalists"

What do you think those spears and rock tools were?

wow, are you really trying to argue that hunter gatherers were capitalists. i think that would be a first, it's almost funny. ROFLMFAO

[17Spartacus76]

I've already proved that they were capitalists.

Laughing does not refute me.

[polyzygote]

i won't try to refute you, i'll let you stand as the only person who believes hunter gatherers were capitalists.if they were however, then your highly idealized form of capitalism is truly a great thing, but capitalism in the real world since the demise of your hunter gatherers has never looked anything like it.

[17Spartacus76]

"i won't try to refute you"

That's because you can't.

And again, capitalism marches on no matter what political system is in power. Politics can only skew the benefits of the fruits of capitalism to their favored cronies, sometimes to the point of starving millions as was the case in the USSR. If you don't understand that then you aren't equipped to have this discussion.

[Bigmartinno1]

I heard the specious "capitalism is human action" line before! What drivel.

How has capitalism been going on since the beginning of time? 4 a start man didn't exist at the beginning of time. 2nd human society has been unequivocally collectivist for 95% of its existence (hunter-gatherers).3rd society run along capitalist lines has only existed for round 250 yrs.

Liberal-Capitalism, Corporatism, Fascism- all internally related with the emergence of the relevant form dependent on conditions.

[polyzygote]

as for capitalism existing since the beginning of time, that is utter nonsense. you are right to equate corporatism with fascism, but neither in germany, nor italy for example did the government own the corporations, they were in strong alliance with them, including many US corporations like IBM. socialism as jsparkle commented was never implemented under fascism.

simple question: why did the fascists try to eliminate all socialists from their countries if fascism is 'a form of socialism'?

[17Spartacus76]

"that is utter nonsense."

It is utter truth. Capitalism, ie. the accumulation and use of capital, HAS been going on, ever since man learned to fashion tools.

Germany and Italy regulated industries, imposed quotas etc. Gov had de facto control over all industry. That is fascism, read Mussolini. Fascism is a type of socialism and you just proved it.

Answer: They didn't, they tried to eliminate the communists. Get your history straight.

[polyzygote]

you said the beginning of time, now you've changed it to tools now, but you are STILL wrong, humans were still living in small collectivist groups for many millenia AFTER the invention of tools

like i said they were very closely allied with industry, there were quotas, so what, there was NOTHING like collective ownership, and the capitalists still made huge profits.

they killed gypsies, jews, homosexuals, and anybody from the radical left including socialists. you get your story straight. liar

[17Spartacus76]

"humans were still living in small collectivist groups for many millenia AFTER the invention of tools"

so? Is this supposed to be an argument for socialism? get your head out of your ass

"there was NOTHING like collective ownership"

outright ownership is not a requirement, as i've already told you. you're simply talking nonsense now. fascism is a form of socialism, period.

jonjayray . tripod . com / hitler . html

facts are tough for you to swallow aren't they?

[polyzygote]

"fascism is a form of socialism, period."

that's just a bald faced lie. i ask again, why did the fascists try to destroy all socialists in their countries if fascism is socialism? you can't say they didn't unless you are a liar or just plain misinformed. get an education

[17Spartacus76]

"that's just a bald faced lie"

I've already proved that it isn't, so stop wasting everyone's time.

"why did the fascists try to destroy all socialists in their countries if fascism is socialism?"

I've already answered that.

"you can't say they didn't"

Read the link and remove your ignorance.

"get an education"

Pot, meet kettle. If you want to make a real argument, instead of the emotional trite you've been posting, I can suggest some books.

[polyzygote]

it is a well known historical FACT that

a) fascists killed socialists

b) capitalists made huge profits under fascism

who are you trying to kid?

[17Spartacus76]

it is a well known historical FACT that

a) fascists ARE socialists, only instead of directly owning capital they took control of it through regulation

b) FASCISTS made huge profist under fascism

who are YOU trying to kid?

read a book for once in your life.

[17Spartacus76]

"What drivel."

Care to support that BS line?

1. Man invented the concept of time, my point stands, and the fact that you chose to even address that displays a huge lack knowledge on your part.

2. This is not an argument

3. This is not completely true, but you should also note that the past 250 years have brought more prosperity and lifted more people out of poverty than the last 2500. Free markets win.

Capitalism and corporatism are not synonymous, they're opposites. Try a dictionary.

[Telcontar1962]

You obviously don't watch the trailer oand you aren't open to differing voices of opinion even if they are voices closer to the ground than you are.

If opposition to private corporations and banks owning most of the worlds resources and servicce deliveries is socialism then we should all be for it.

Capitalism as it now stands is a morally, ethically and democraticcally bankrupt system. I'm all for free-trade but what we have now is very very far from that.

[17Spartacus76]

I've followed TRN since inception so I'm more familiar with it than you are. They offer no differing voices. Where is Ron Paul? Where is Jim Rogers and Peter Schiff? Where are the people who predicted this mess was going to happen?

Instead we get socialists and communists advocating for more of the systems that created our problems.

Socialism caused this mess, socialism will not solve it. I suggest you start reading because you have no idea what capitalism actually is.

[Telcontar1962]

I've followed it for quite some time myself.

I've seen TRN invite Ron Paul at least once before. As for socialism, the US has never had anything close and has absolutely no idea of its ups or downsides.

As for capitalism you would argue as it what it OUGHT to be and not what it is. Read what I said before spouting off "Capitalism as it now stands ...".

I'd suggest you have preconeived notions and anything that refutes rhart you would attack. Maybe you would be better off watching Fox.

[SlaveStorm]

Watching is political validation

Nobody gets Politics is irrelevant stop validating it by participating Create a new artifact design something an open communicative cooperative community of planet earth

We can rally a million people in face book or American Idol to vote on trivial stuff Let's use these tools to move people create a new world game of enlightened citizens earning points for being better informed exposing lies & uncovering truths earn the right to weighted voting exams

[borcer]

"We" send probes to Mars, and there are people starving on this planet ...

[SlaveStorm]

There is a disconnect between the brain & the mind

Part of the problem of our patristic specialist society. They have their noses buried in their masters work. Fiat wealth & technology goes up the pyramid scheme on the backs of the people. They don't see the absurdity of it all

There are too many problems with it all to put into a post. Politics isn't going to solve our problems, they are the cause. Violence & extortion at the point of a gun. Pay your tax or go to jail

Earn the right to live

[borcer]

"Earn the right to live"

Well said Dave!

It's the system we live under, yes! Politics are NOT the solution! I don't vote, never did, never will. & I always try to talk my friends out of voting and military!

It's an upside down, back to front world!

[Telcontar1962]

All life its politics. How you can say its irrelevant is rather odd to be honest.

Even if there were only two people in the world, the way they would organise would constitute politics.

I think the only game you might be referring to is a computerised virtual world operated by a single invidual. I just hope he/she is schizophrenic else the chip might blow.

[SlaveStorm]

Perhaps I was too vague. Our current representative political parties & institutions are irrelevant

I don't need a representative to problem solve for me, speak, think & make decisions for me, pass laws over my life & sentence me to prison when I express myself consciously, verbally, physically or spiritually

These are not true democracies, they're parodies, illusions

Criminals buy their political positions of authority. The art of total warfare over peoples minds and their bodies wages on

[17Spartacus76]

"As for socialism, the US has never had anything close"

All 10 planks of the Communist manifesto have been implemented in one form or another for over 50 years. Your ignorance is astounding.

"you would argue as it what it OUGHT to be"

No, I argue using the accepted definitions of the words I'm using. You're the one who can't differentiate between capitalism and corporatism.

I'd suggest that you're desperate because you can't come up with a straight argument.

[polyzygote]

"Socialism caused this mess, socialism will not solve it. I suggest you start reading because you have no idea what capitalism actually is."

you think that less than 1% of the population owning a vast majority of the assets on earth is socialism? it's corporatism. if socialists were in power you would have distribution of wealth, not concentration of wealth.

you lump socialism and corporatism in the same basket but they have diametrically opposed aims.

[17Spartacus76]

"If opposition to private corporations and banks owning most of the worlds resources and servicce deliveries is socialism"

It's not, that's capitalism. Socialism establishes monopolies and secures their power by the force of government. If you're against monopoly, then by definition you're against socialism.

Your last 2 sentences are contradictory. Capitalism = free trade, you can't be for one and against the other. Your criticisms are actually criticisms of socialism.

[Telcontar1962]

If you don't mind me saying you do talk alot of bollocks for an seemingly intelligent person.

[17Spartacus76]

The only difference between you and I is that I call things by their proper names.

[polyzygote]

your just playing games with semantics and trying to pretend that i am. the people in washington who are running the USA now, they call *themselves* capitalists. the people in collusion with hitler and mussolini, called *themselves* capitalists. i don't have to do it for them

[17Spartacus76]

You ARE playing semantics, and you even admitted it when you said you were using corporatism and capitalism interchangeably. When in reality they are diametric OPPOSITES.

"they call *themselves* capitalists"

Irrelevant, it's what they DO that counts. You just admitted that you've fallen for their propaganda. Part of it has to do with redefining words, it's called newspeak.

[Telcontar1962]

I don;t think so. Your convinced of your own argument and will brook no opposition to it.

Since the earliest socities by their very nature must have been socialist in nature, having to rely on each other for their very survival and monpolies could not have existed and compare with the more modern capitalist system where (near) monopolies of one form or another abound undermine's your argument.

You're comparing capitalism in theory to modern socialism in practice its not honest nor proper.

[17Spartacus76]

"having to rely on each other"

That's not socialism. People voluntarily helping eachother is the mark of a free and capitalist economy. Just read Alexis de Toqueville if you need any proof of that. State-run welfare is socialism and none of those societies had that.

"monopolies of one form or another"

The monopolies you refer to only exist because they curried favor with the government.

"comparing capitalism in theory to modern socialism in practice"

I did no such thing.

[polyzygote]

> People voluntarily helping eachother is the mark of a free and capitalist economy

as witnessed when in history? the only time this have ever existed in history is in small collectivist groups of hunter gatherers (and perhaps a few temporary anarchist uprisings) which nobody except yourself believe are capitalists. don't let the fact that they share everything freely and have no conception of capital whatsoever stop you.

[17Spartacus76]

"as witnessed when"

That's the definition! If it's not voluntary, it's not capitalism! How can you not understand this?

You have yet to prove that these hunter gatherers were anything other than capitalist.

"no conception of capital"

They didn't need to understand capitalism in order to be practicing it. If you have the creation or better tools to increase production, owned privately, and voluntary contracts, that's capitalism. So everybody believes that they were capitalists.

[polyzygote]

i am actually just as critical of large scale government control as you are, but your free market capitalism is completely unproven, whereas collectivism a la hunter gatherer is, from both a sustainability, and evolutionary psychology perspective, IS proven.

if you want a model look at them. capital is not the be all and end all.

[17Spartacus76]

"your free market capitalism is completely unproven"

BS, every time a socialist government loosens the reigns, society flourishes. All of history proves that free economies outperform anything else.

"collectivism a la hunter gatherer"

You assume they were collectivist, which is wholly unsupported just like everything else you've written.

"capital is not the be all and end all."

Without it you'd be naked and living like an animal. Good luck with that.

[polyzygote]

You assume they were collectivist, which is wholly unsupported just like everything else you've written.

no i've actually studied these people, and it's funny watching you talk about them because you have no idea how there societies were ordered.

"better tools to increase production, owned privately, and voluntary contracts, that's capitalism. "

absolutely not a word of this applies to hunter gatherer societies.

[17Spartacus76]

"no i've actually studied these people"

that's laughable, you've made dozens of unsupported claims throughout our whole discussion. why would anyone believe you now? lol

"absolutely not a word of this applies to hunter gatherer societies."

bald assertions aren't an argument, my statement stands

[polyzygote]

i think that you will find that if you go into any anthropology department and try to argue that hunter gatherers are capitalists you will quickly see who will be laughing. good luck

[polyzygote]

"every time a socialist government loosens the reigns, society flourishes. All of history proves that free economies outperform anything else."

uhh, so now you are saying that there have been free markets. where? when?

[17Spartacus76]

I said socialist governments loosening the reigns, like what happened in India and China. And now 500 million people have lifted themselves out of poverty.

Seeing as how you now have to misquote and misinterpret everything I say, as well as repeatedly make baseless assertions and even outright lie just to keep this discussion going, I'll end it now.

[polyzygote]

the world is getting poorer not richer. poverty is outstripping even the exponential growth of population at the moment. growth capitalism is completely unsustainable on a finite planet, and finally, you are living in a fantasy world. have a nice day

[17Spartacus76]

"the world is getting poorer not richer"

according to who? you?? lmao

every metric available says you're full of crap

"growth capitalism is completely unsustainable on a finite planet"

Agreed, but that's not what we're discussing. You keep changing the subject and arguing against strawman. Why do you waste so much of your time?

"and finally, you are living in a fantasy world"

What a rebuttal, but it's about the intellectual average that I've come to expect from statist fundies.

[polyzygote]

i'm an anarchist LOL, statist fundies, LOL

whatever happened to 'ending the discussion'?

[17Spartacus76]

anarchists support freedom, not state regulation

you must be one of those faux-anarchists that are really communists, you do use all their mangled, marxist definitions of everything

you have a lot of thinking to do about just what you really support.

if you don't support the state, then you support freedom and necessarily free enterprise and you are a capitalist because once the state is gone, the only thing left to organize society is voluntary exchanges of property

try reading Konkin

[polyzygote]

> anarchists support freedom, not state regulation

right, and when did i say i supported state regulation?

in the real (imperfect) world i would choose democratic socialism over corporatism any day however.

> the only thing left to organize society is voluntary exchanges of property

but wait, what if property itself is a kind of oppression. i suppose that has never occurred to you. what about organizing a society around love for instance, or the sustainable stewardship of the land.

[17Spartacus76]

You oppose private property and free enterprise, the only way to stop those is to form a state and force people not to.

"democratic socialism"

This is a pretty accurate description of what the USA has had ever since the progressive era, corporatism is a side effect of democracy

"what if property itself is a kind of oppression"

it's not, if I build a house, how does that oppress my neighbors? if you can't find an answer to that, then you know that you're wrong.

[polyzygote]

"You oppose ... force people not to"

no, they can collectively choose a more enlightened path. that's what democracy is.

"This is a pretty accurate ... corporatism is a side effect of democracy"

corporatism is incompatible with democracy which is why corporate media has to manipulate populations to keep them in line, and also why corporatism and fascism are such good bedmates.

the nordic states are much better examples of democratic socialism than the US ever was.

[17Spartacus76]

"that's what democracy is."

Wrong, democracy literally means 'mob rule'. The founders of the USA called it the 'tyranny of the majority', and they're right. 50% +1 can strip away the rights of everyone else. That's why they're unsustainable.

Once again you promote statism. Don't pretend to be an anarchist and then turn around and hold up Nordic states as some sort of ideal. Makes you look like a hypocrite.

[polyzygote]

"Wrong, democracy literally means 'mob rule'"

actually it literally means popular rule (demos: people, kratos: rule), but your use of the word mob is illuminating.

"Nordic states as some sort of ideal...blah blah blah"

they are certainly better than corporatist empire which is what the US is currently. ideal, not at all, just better.

[17Spartacus76]

"your use of the word mob is illuminating"

It's the only word that explains the results produced by democracy. Irrational, corrupt and destructive to society as a whole.

"better than corporatist empire which is what the US is currently"

Glad you've finally come to terms with the fact that the US is not a free market economy and that a corrupt democracy has produced the things you dislike. The Nordic states suffer many of the same problems too.

[polyzygote]

"Irrational, corrupt and destructive to society as a whole."

the alternative, i know, you believe that society should be run via a magically self regulating free flow of capital mediated by a set of social contracts.

it doesn't occur to you that capital might in it's very essence be orthogonal to the human animal and her ecology. anyway, yawn, i'm going to bed

"Glad you've finally come to terms with the fact that the US is not a free market... blah blah blah"

finally come to terms with, LOL

[polyzygote]

"it's not, if I build a house, how does that oppress my neighbors?"

it all depends on the house doesn't it. is it 500 times bigger than your neighbors? in a society organized around capital there is nothing to say that that is unnacceptable, in a society built around more enlightened principles that would not happen.

currently corporate executives routinely make more than 500 times the average company wage.

[17Spartacus76]

"it all depends on the house doesn't it"

Actually, it doesn't, so your whole point about size fails.

"in a society built around more enlightened principles"

You mean like freedom and capitalism? That is, after all, what The Enlightenment is all about. However Communists like to talk about their views as if they're enlightened, though all they wind up producing is misery. You people never learn from history.

"executives routinely make more than 500 times "

...and? Jealous much? lol

[polyzygote]

so just to get things straight, you think that founding a society around capital is more enlightened than earth stewardship?

right, maybe read up on steady state economics which is what the planet is going to have to accept one way or another and you will see that a 500/1 salary ratio (or house size) is unsustainable. it has nothing to do with jealousy, money is not wealth.

[17Spartacus76]

"you think that founding a society around capital is more enlightened than earth stewardship"

You honestly think that these two are mutually exclusive?

Perpetual growth has never been a requirement of freedom, and unequal pay is a reality that you're going to have to accept. Remember the old USSR worker's motto: "We pretend to work while they pretend to pay us." Try learning a little history.

Money is a tool, nothing more. Try taking an economics course.

[polyzygote]

"unequal pay is a reality that you're going to have to accept. "

you already said you agreed that growth capitalism was unsustainable. so i highly suggest that you read up on steady state economics, slight inequalities are acceptable, just not a 500:1 ratio. a system which allows that is not sustainable, i.e. it cannot be sustained, i.e. it will end, either in a crash or if humans are smart maybe a softer landing.

anyway really hitting the sack now.

[polyzygote]

"Money is a tool, nothing more"

all tools have side effects, the 'neutral' tool is a myth

[Bigmartinno1]

If human action is capitalism everything people do is capitalism & thus ur worrying about nothing unless u have a preference for one form of capitalism! Elementary logic Watson.

1)U sound like a creationist so do dinosaur fossils exist? Did dinosaurs exist in time before humans?!

2)Why not?

3)Not completely true? I would argue that the fight against capitalism by workers & unions & the creation of the welfare state lifted most out of poverty.

[Bigmartinno1]

sparta2) I never said corporatism & capitalism were the same. I said they along with fascism are part of the same process which priviliges capital over labour. Fascism is capitalism's ugly big sister. Whatever forms arise depends on the specific constellation of socio-politico-eocnomic conditions.

[17Spartacus76]

1) You dodged the point and wrote complete nonsense. Are you like 10 years old or something? How did you get from time as a human concept, to dinosaur bones.

2) You didn't provide evidence for your blank assertion. Unless you're going to say that any two people cooperating is collectivist, which is completely wrong.

3) Then you're an idiot. Unions didn't lift 500 million people out of poverty in India and China. The welfare state has utterly failed at reducing poverty every time.

[Bigmartinno1]

1)Ok, bracketing some huge big ontological issues, is this concept of time inclusive of time before humans? I think my allusion to dino bones & creationism was entirely apt as u seem a trenchant libertarian knuckledragger.

2)Hunter-gatherers were awfully collectivist. They hunted/gathered in packs, they pooled the spoils, communal childrearing........

3)Unions may yet lift 500-600m Chinese & Indians out of poverty. Oh boy are they fighting capitalism out there!

[Bigmartinno1]

SpartaB) What's happening/happened out there in china + India is people are/have been removed from their own sources of subsistence by force & fraud much like happened in Europe over 200yrs ago to make way for capitalism. As they have no other means of subsistence they are ripe for exploitation & hence capitalist 'dynamism'.

Explain how the welfare state has failed. Show me the most robust welfare states in the world & I'll show you the countries with the lowest poverty.

[Bigmartinno1]

SpartaC) But let's not forget that the welfare state from it's inception was a conservative preemptive & rearguard action against worker militancy, from Bismarck on. The reason the left tends to support it is it softens the burden of capitalism. Clever conservatives can also so it's functional role in sustaining aggregate demand & fostering human potential & social mobility.

Personally I'd rather have Socialism than welfare state capitalism......

[17Spartacus76]

"what about organizing a society around love for instance, or the sustainable stewardship of the land"

You wrongly assume that this is incompatible with private property. The USSR had collectivized all property and they were one of the most polluted countries on earth.

[polyzygote]

"You wrongly assume that this is incompatible with private property."

we weren't talking about compatibility, we were talking about core organizational principles. if you can organize a society around stewardship of the earth as a core foundational principle while allowing for private property as understood by capitalism, i would be very surprised, but would not be opposed.

[polyzygote]

"> anarchists support freedom"

ignoring the fact that anarchism is just about as diverse as capitalism in its modes of thinking (i know you think that there is only one true capitalism, yours).

anarchism just means non-hierarchical social structure. in any society there will always have to be temperance of freedom. for example the temperance of predatory sexual behaviour. unrestrained freedom of capital, especially when it is the central organizing principle of a society is a harmful 'freedom'

[polyzygote]

That's not socialism.

there are socialist democrats, there are socialist anarchists, there are socialist statists, which ones are you talking about?

[17Spartacus76]

"That's not socialism."

Yes it is. I've already stated the exact definition of socialism.  It's not debatable.

Socialism = Government ownership/control of capital

It's that simple.

[polyzygote]

there are many varieties of socialism, including varieties which disavow state power. now this is just getting tiresome.

[17Spartacus76]

"there are many varieties of socialism"

I agree, but every one of them requires a state in order to accomplish its goals.

If there's no state, then by definition there can be no socialism. You would know that if you knew the definition of the terms you were using.

[polyzygote]

right, yadadadada, just wikipedia anarcho-socialism, or libertarian-socialism, to see what i'm talking about.

[17Spartacus76]

"anarcho-socialism"

just another way for communists to sell their drivel

"libertarian-socialism"

just another way for socialists to sell their drivel

neither of those systems are materially different from communism or socialism, it's just branding

I suggest you grow a BS filter before your head explodes.

[polyzygote]

right anything you disagree with is automatically bullshit because you live in an ideological lalaland.

[17Spartacus76]

pot... kettle

[polyzygote]

"anarcho-socialism"

just another way for communists to sell their drivel

care to elaborate, or is this another sweeping statement we are meant to just believe at face value?

[tanio12]

UH UH I saw the article containing Asian Development BANK?

[KMAMK123]

Buy gold and sliver when it is in demand... you want us to feed the rich some more? dude get out of here...

[tanio12]

"Trade your paper for gold and silver now! "

And then what! Sometimes Gold and Silver isn't always what it appears to be.

[senithe363]

Fuck the IMF!

[blackiron60]

At least most people see through the IMF's rhetoric this time.

[newmanfrigan]

Read 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman'. Excellent book about such things.

[yvadmil]

Also check out "Bad Samaritans" by

economist Ha-Joon Chang.He is on

you tube:mediagrrl9 channel.John Perkins (confessions..) is also on you tube:talking sticktv.

channel

[durstwurst]

newmanfrigan:

"Read 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman'"

my first thought, too.

there is also a video interview with the author ,John Perkins  here on youtube.

[balomas69]

im so sick of people believing the bullshit "without _____ it would be so much worst. give up your principles, give up your wealth, give up your freedoms and i'll take care of you"

[bbburton]

What the neoliberal policies have done in third world countries is exactly what has been done in the US; created more poverty and destroyed freedom and liberty.

[sircesare]

The IMF is the reason why so many countries are still in poverty they are a bunch of crooks and they are ready to take anyones money at any cost...

[P3coTrain]

steal from the middle, give to the rich, donate to the poor on behalf of the rich!

[kendjo]

i think when this becomes a international network, it should be called world news, to cast off any connotations real may create, thereby somewhat insulting and repelling those who arent ready.

[MankindCartoons]

This video made me SO angry.

[MankindCartoons]

"Sustained growth" is a fucking fantasy land.

[greenhell666]

THESE are the world leaders and MONEY is your god ... -_-

[bravehartmman]

Bring me my machine gun !!!

[zoticus1]

The IMF is straight criminality!!!!!!!!

Read a book by author John Perkins called "confessions of an economic hitman" It will really get you up to speed...

[zappos49]

Great Book!

[StephinRazin]

Unaticipated

[yo1dude1man]

I.M.F. "IS" the New World Order.

When IMF tells governments to cut spending, they're indirectly telling them to cut funding on: children education, health coverage, sewage infrastructure, road improvements, etc.

I.M.F. sole existence is to ensure that 3rd world countries REMAIN 3rd world countries in the years/decades to come.

[clayvessel]

The IMF is a scam--- owned by an old boy network of predatory monopolists... to indebt poor nations in order to ultimately steal their real resources through the scam known as "privatization"...

Just look at Argentina... Read the book , "The Economic Hitman" by John Perkins... to discover the real story of theft by IMF.

[nasanction]

Banks are EVIL! They are behind every major problem on the planet!

WAKE UP!!!!!

[Weedmer]

0:29 masonic handshakes what a surprise -_-

[antiminati]

Yeah the lion paw,Master Masons all round i think

[kmg501]

The IMF and the rest of the top down dictatorial scumbags need to be fought tooth and nail. Those people suffer the usual staggering bureaucratic arrogance that they can resolve large problems from the top down. History has proven that this is profoundly wrong and very dangerous to principles of self determination and economic spontaneity.

Look at the American government, it is not entirely clear now but in a year it will be. America is going to suffer a massive depression because of statism.

[robertoray1277]

No matter how generous the terms, nations will never, never, never, be able to borrow their way out of debt.

[dorsguy]

Follow the footsteps backwards.

Who funds both sides of all wars?

Who pays the taxes on the funds lent?

Who takes over the national resources of countries that fail to repay the loans.

If you can control a country's money, you control that country.

[DavidAKZ]

Rothschild et al ?

[dorsguy]

It started with the Rothschilds and now there are several other wealthy families involved.

[flyhead2]

I've read the book. It took a few days to read, a considerably longer time than you presumably used to try and write him off here. I think Perkins showed wise constraint, he's still alive, after all. Treat yourself to some milk and cookies and enjoy your Chuck Norris video collection.

[stangeriam]

hhmmmmm.....look closely at their special handshakes at the beginning of the video...

[koch46]

anyone following EQUADORS new pres saying that they dont have to honor the last administrations international debs cause they were made with a corrupt government????

[elgringote3]

didn't catch that but I had heard that they were turning down funds for DEA efforts due to the strings attached ie. letting U.S. choose police director, etc.

[phackqu]

These are the reasons why Zeitgeist movement is needed!

[MW2772]

Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins is an interesting read...and illuminates this process of "economic enslavement" on a national level.

[qtonic]

i have a video of a talk he gave on his book tour (not on my youtube), and i have to say that i don't fully trust John Perkins. he was frequently too convenient and put off a distinct attention seeker vibe. its like he wrote a drama exaggerating admittedly negative themes but eagerly passes it off to people all too willing to believe his action. judge for yourself, but take a look