In addition to what I was just saying, Freedom, please provide some evidence that Christ was false. Scripture clearly teaches that a prophet has to be 100% correct on prophecies. Even the D&C states that every prophecy it contains "shall all be fulfilled" (DC 1:37). Hyrum Smith ok with a prophet hitting "once in 10 times." Forget 10%, please provide for me just one correct prophecy, and before you jump on the Civil War prophecy, let me say that you don't really want to dive into it.
No. They were not (Romans 3:23). And that is not the Christian claim. Christians do not teach that you have to be perfect to be a prophet. The Bible teaches that you must have ...
1. Theological consistency with previous revelation (Deut. 12:1-4
Freedom, it's highly curious to me that you admit Jospeh Smith lived a questionable life, yet uphold every word of his as pure and true. Christ on the other other hand has yet to be disproven. This is a huge difference between these two men. In the almost 2,000 years since Christ's death, there has not been a shred of evidence against His words, actions, or claims, yet in less than 200 years since the death of Joseph, there is tangible evidence that he lived a less than honest life.
"there is tangible evidence that he lived a less than honest life."
Now that is THE definition of understatement!
Freedom prefers to attempt to create doubt about the authenticity of scripture and God. Which, to his ignorance, only harms his stance. To him, 2 wrongs = he's right. Where's the salvation in that?! He obviously chooses to run to Lindsay for truth. Sad.
Are history of the church, Doctrines and Covenants, Journal of Discourses, Time's and Seasons... Subjective? Aren't those published and approved by "your" church. Aren't you undermining your claim to authority when you attack your own church's documents and call them subjective? An arrest record on file with the State of New York... subjective? Papyrus remains used in the "Joseph Smith Translation"... subjective? I think you are really reaching...Freedom, please respond with substance...
Were Jesus' words used against him? Have innocent, good people been accurately quoted and had their words used against them? Do people read their own meaning and interpretation into statements others have made? Yes, yes and yes. Will people continue to malign, misunderstand, misrepresent and smear in our day? Certainly.
I have studied and read the BOM many times over. I find it in complete harmony with the teachings of Jesus and I find it remarkable...
"I have more to BOAST of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I BOAST that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."
Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, Vol., 6:, p.408.
I'll take your word for it that this is the quote. It may or may not be accurate. Let's say it is and that Joseph Smith actually said those words. Was he a man? Was he perfect? I seem to remember a man by the name of Peter denying Jesus three times to save his own neck. I also remember a guy named Moses taking the credit for water coming out of a rock and being punished. There are others who were boastful and had cause to repent. If Joseph did indeed say this, then he will have to answer for it.
The qoute is accurate... and it just goes to the heart of the man. Jesus taught that what comes out of a mans mouth is from his heart. When you combine the facts that Joseph was a false teacher, taught a corrupt view of God and His Gospel, had many false prophecies, diliberately and willfully lied to his own people about being able to translate the pearl of great price, promoted polytheism, promoted polygamy, practiced witchcraft (arrested 1826 for it)... it all begins to weigh pretty heavy...
Josephs detractors always like to point out the "negative" things about JS. Some of them are questionable whether or not he ever said or did them. I wonder how many people at Christs crucifixion were thinking to themselves, "this guy got what he deserved" because of the propaganda, half-truths, gossip and misleading statements that were passed around about Jesus. I'll bet many.
Tell me this, the BOM. Where did it come from? It alone stands as a testimony of J.Smiths divine calling.
I want you to notice something freedom. You completely ignored everything I wrote and started a new subject. That seems like a smokescreen to me. But, I'll be happy to meet you wherever you are. I woul say that it came from a few places... One: Satan (2 Cor. 11:3-15), two: His own mind (he was known by his family as a storyteller), three: the King James Bible (plagarism), four: known myths in his area about the early inhabitants of the America's (no man knows my history, Fawn Brodie)...
Also, he claimed to have translated the BOM from Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics (doesn't exist). Yet, he demonstrated (irrefutably) that he could not translate the "pearl of great price" or the "book of Abraham". We have the Papyri, anyone can examine it. It demonstrates that he diliberately and willfully lied to the Mormons about his ability to translate. If he lied and couldn't do it with the POGP he couldn't do it with the alleged golden plates. He didn't get one word right. It's a fact.
And, everything I quote is directly from your own documents, so you can be sure "he" said it. And Joseph was a well-known occultist. You cannot get away from it freedom. And if you don't know that then you are not prepared in any way to discuss his life. One example is his arrest in 1826 in Bainbridge, New York for Crystal ball gazing (a crime in the Bible: Deut. 18:9-14, and in the State at the time). So trying to cast doubt on comments made by him or whitewashing his life... is futile.
I "ignored" most of what you wrote because it is subjective! Were you there when Joseph "said" these things? If famous men actually said everything that was attributed to them then this world would be a different place with a much different understanding of those famous men.
Anyone who comes to the conclusions that you came to about the origin of the Bom has never read nor seriously studied the Book. You use them as reasons to pacify your beliefs. Joseph was mocked to scorn in his day....
Are history of the church, Doctrines and Covenants, Journal of Discourses, Time's and Seasons... Subjective? Aren't those published and approved by "your" church. Aren't you undermining your claim to authority when you attack your own church's documents and call them subjective? An arrest record on file with the State of New York... subjective? Papyrus remains used in the "Joseph Smith Translation"... subjective? I think you are really reaching...Freedom, please respond with substance...
jefflindsay dt com Click on LDS then at the top click on Book of Abraham. This page is full of rebuttals to the accusations made against JS and the BOA.
To the real meat. Nobody wants to discuss the puzzle, structure and substance of the gospel. Why is God who he is? Where does his power come from? Why is sin so bad? Why is righteousness so good? It's much more fun and comforting to point to the supposed weakness of JS and LDS church. OK.
I gotta be honest with you freedom... that is in no way an answer. You haven't addressed any ONE of the issues I brought up. Have you noticed that? I hope you take enough personal reflection to realize that you cannot offer even one meaningful response to any of these issues.
Sad thing there is no end to the horrors this world has to face in Mormonism. It just continues. I also could never follow a god that was not greater than man, and could not keep his word untarnished. If he couldn't even do that, how could I ever believe he could do anything else.
Where to start. The very thing you hold against LDS Doctrine and Joseph Smith the Jews, in John 10, held against Jesus and were going to stone him. Read it in context and there is no mistaking what they were accusing him of and he defended himself by quoting scripture that said "Ye are Gods and Children of the Most High." Had he quoted incorrectly they would no doubt have pointed to his folly.
Freedom... It would help if you would go back and read Psalms 82:6 in it's context. It was an irony reference where God "mocks" the unjust judges of Israel. If you look at John 10 Jesus is applying it to the then current unjust judges... He was not calling them God's. How do you know? Jesus said the greatest commandment in the law... "hear, O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE". Freedom:
It amazes me that so many good, honest, and otherwise intelligent people could follow this "prophet"! I've known many Mormons and have had lengthy (good natured) discussions with them over theology. I have a degree in biblical science and know my faith pretty well and as a Southern Baptist all I can say is they are brainwashed. There are some very good people in the LDS church and we should pray for them! Thanks for posting the great vids.
yeah you can preach all day to a Mormon but there is a layer of deception which is like a wall which stops them from hearing the truth. Deception sets in after they have prayed the self for filling prayer to know if the book of Mormon is true and they have some sort of feeling which tells them that its true
In addition to what I was just saying, Freedom, please provide some evidence that Christ was false. Scripture clearly teaches that a prophet has to be 100% correct on prophecies. Even the D&C states that every prophecy it contains "shall all be fulfilled" (DC 1:37). Hyrum Smith ok with a prophet hitting "once in 10 times." Forget 10%, please provide for me just one correct prophecy, and before you jump on the Civil War prophecy, let me say that you don't really want to dive into it.
xtrendyx 3 years ago
Were moses and noah perfect?
mjolnir18889 3 years ago
No. They were not (Romans 3:23). And that is not the Christian claim. Christians do not teach that you have to be perfect to be a prophet. The Bible teaches that you must have ...
1. Theological consistency with previous revelation (Deut. 12:1-4
2. Perfect prophetic fullfillment (Deut. 18:20-22).
Check out the video. It might be helpful!
Jeff
President
Apologia
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
Freedom, it's highly curious to me that you admit Jospeh Smith lived a questionable life, yet uphold every word of his as pure and true. Christ on the other other hand has yet to be disproven. This is a huge difference between these two men. In the almost 2,000 years since Christ's death, there has not been a shred of evidence against His words, actions, or claims, yet in less than 200 years since the death of Joseph, there is tangible evidence that he lived a less than honest life.
xtrendyx 3 years ago
"there is tangible evidence that he lived a less than honest life."
Now that is THE definition of understatement!
Freedom prefers to attempt to create doubt about the authenticity of scripture and God. Which, to his ignorance, only harms his stance. To him, 2 wrongs = he's right. Where's the salvation in that?! He obviously chooses to run to Lindsay for truth. Sad.
holidays61397 3 years ago
I agree. There are Judicial Records for that!
OrlandoParty2K 3 years ago
Are history of the church, Doctrines and Covenants, Journal of Discourses, Time's and Seasons... Subjective? Aren't those published and approved by "your" church. Aren't you undermining your claim to authority when you attack your own church's documents and call them subjective? An arrest record on file with the State of New York... subjective? Papyrus remains used in the "Joseph Smith Translation"... subjective? I think you are really reaching...Freedom, please respond with substance...
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
In an effort to help you understand...
Were Jesus' words used against him? Have innocent, good people been accurately quoted and had their words used against them? Do people read their own meaning and interpretation into statements others have made? Yes, yes and yes. Will people continue to malign, misunderstand, misrepresent and smear in our day? Certainly.
I have studied and read the BOM many times over. I find it in complete harmony with the teachings of Jesus and I find it remarkable...
freedombolt 3 years ago
I'll make it easier on both of us Freedom... I'll post a video comment! This typing in small spaces is killing me...
Defendthefaithorg 3 years ago
Excellent!
holidays61397 3 years ago
I can't wait!
freedombolt 3 years ago
"I have more to BOAST of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I BOAST that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."
Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, Vol., 6:, p.408.
Unbelievable!!
johnyjamie 3 years ago
I'll take your word for it that this is the quote. It may or may not be accurate. Let's say it is and that Joseph Smith actually said those words. Was he a man? Was he perfect? I seem to remember a man by the name of Peter denying Jesus three times to save his own neck. I also remember a guy named Moses taking the credit for water coming out of a rock and being punished. There are others who were boastful and had cause to repent. If Joseph did indeed say this, then he will have to answer for it.
freedombolt 3 years ago
The qoute is accurate... and it just goes to the heart of the man. Jesus taught that what comes out of a mans mouth is from his heart. When you combine the facts that Joseph was a false teacher, taught a corrupt view of God and His Gospel, had many false prophecies, diliberately and willfully lied to his own people about being able to translate the pearl of great price, promoted polytheism, promoted polygamy, practiced witchcraft (arrested 1826 for it)... it all begins to weigh pretty heavy...
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
Josephs detractors always like to point out the "negative" things about JS. Some of them are questionable whether or not he ever said or did them. I wonder how many people at Christs crucifixion were thinking to themselves, "this guy got what he deserved" because of the propaganda, half-truths, gossip and misleading statements that were passed around about Jesus. I'll bet many.
Tell me this, the BOM. Where did it come from? It alone stands as a testimony of J.Smiths divine calling.
freedombolt 3 years ago
I want you to notice something freedom. You completely ignored everything I wrote and started a new subject. That seems like a smokescreen to me. But, I'll be happy to meet you wherever you are. I woul say that it came from a few places... One: Satan (2 Cor. 11:3-15), two: His own mind (he was known by his family as a storyteller), three: the King James Bible (plagarism), four: known myths in his area about the early inhabitants of the America's (no man knows my history, Fawn Brodie)...
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
Also, he claimed to have translated the BOM from Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics (doesn't exist). Yet, he demonstrated (irrefutably) that he could not translate the "pearl of great price" or the "book of Abraham". We have the Papyri, anyone can examine it. It demonstrates that he diliberately and willfully lied to the Mormons about his ability to translate. If he lied and couldn't do it with the POGP he couldn't do it with the alleged golden plates. He didn't get one word right. It's a fact.
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
And, everything I quote is directly from your own documents, so you can be sure "he" said it. And Joseph was a well-known occultist. You cannot get away from it freedom. And if you don't know that then you are not prepared in any way to discuss his life. One example is his arrest in 1826 in Bainbridge, New York for Crystal ball gazing (a crime in the Bible: Deut. 18:9-14, and in the State at the time). So trying to cast doubt on comments made by him or whitewashing his life... is futile.
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
Please Freedom... it won't profit you anything to gain the whole world and lose your soul. You should look a little deeper at these issues.
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
I "ignored" most of what you wrote because it is subjective! Were you there when Joseph "said" these things? If famous men actually said everything that was attributed to them then this world would be a different place with a much different understanding of those famous men.
Anyone who comes to the conclusions that you came to about the origin of the Bom has never read nor seriously studied the Book. You use them as reasons to pacify your beliefs. Joseph was mocked to scorn in his day....
freedombolt 3 years ago
Are history of the church, Doctrines and Covenants, Journal of Discourses, Time's and Seasons... Subjective? Aren't those published and approved by "your" church. Aren't you undermining your claim to authority when you attack your own church's documents and call them subjective? An arrest record on file with the State of New York... subjective? Papyrus remains used in the "Joseph Smith Translation"... subjective? I think you are really reaching...Freedom, please respond with substance...
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
With regard to the Book of Abraham accusations:
jefflindsay dt com Click on LDS then at the top click on Book of Abraham. This page is full of rebuttals to the accusations made against JS and the BOA.
To the real meat. Nobody wants to discuss the puzzle, structure and substance of the gospel. Why is God who he is? Where does his power come from? Why is sin so bad? Why is righteousness so good? It's much more fun and comforting to point to the supposed weakness of JS and LDS church. OK.
freedombolt 3 years ago
I gotta be honest with you freedom... that is in no way an answer. You haven't addressed any ONE of the issues I brought up. Have you noticed that? I hope you take enough personal reflection to realize that you cannot offer even one meaningful response to any of these issues.
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
Who would want to be eternally pregnant, and
want to populate another planet like this.
Sad thing there is no end to the horrors this world has to face in Mormonism. It just continues. I also could never follow a god that was not greater than man, and could not keep his word untarnished. If he couldn't even do that, how could I ever believe he could do anything else.
justcary 3 years ago
Where to start. The very thing you hold against LDS Doctrine and Joseph Smith the Jews, in John 10, held against Jesus and were going to stone him. Read it in context and there is no mistaking what they were accusing him of and he defended himself by quoting scripture that said "Ye are Gods and Children of the Most High." Had he quoted incorrectly they would no doubt have pointed to his folly.
Read Psalms 82:6, John 10:34-36,Romans 8:14-18,Matthew 5:48,1Cor 8:5-6,Phil 2:5-6, Rev 2:7-8
freedombolt 3 years ago
Freedom... It would help if you would go back and read Psalms 82:6 in it's context. It was an irony reference where God "mocks" the unjust judges of Israel. If you look at John 10 Jesus is applying it to the then current unjust judges... He was not calling them God's. How do you know? Jesus said the greatest commandment in the law... "hear, O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE". Freedom:
Can you become a God one day?
wheepusdurbin 3 years ago
It amazes me that so many good, honest, and otherwise intelligent people could follow this "prophet"! I've known many Mormons and have had lengthy (good natured) discussions with them over theology. I have a degree in biblical science and know my faith pretty well and as a Southern Baptist all I can say is they are brainwashed. There are some very good people in the LDS church and we should pray for them! Thanks for posting the great vids.
randy95023 3 years ago
yeah you can preach all day to a Mormon but there is a layer of deception which is like a wall which stops them from hearing the truth. Deception sets in after they have prayed the self for filling prayer to know if the book of Mormon is true and they have some sort of feeling which tells them that its true
hoodedwonder 3 years ago
Some sort of feeling...isn't that what Jesus spoke about when he said "The Comforter, The Spirit of Truth"?
freedombolt 3 years ago
this is great..but Mormons will hear it and gasp..as they fight to click pause..
zealforyou 4 years ago