The Price of Conscience (Part 1)

[goodweedindeed]

@SmalltimR Before you judge the book or the man you need to read it, then you will see that your comment does not hold true merit. His conscience was bothering him long before he left.

[PrintedTruth]

This is a great idea but is there a technical problem?

[wizzy812]

I was wondering why the fact that the destruction of the temple in 587 changes the date that Gentile rule began in 607. I beleive all bible scholars agree that the gentile rule began in 607.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@wizzy812 no. bible scholars do not agree on 607 at all. go read 'Gentile Times Reconsidered' so you can get a basic understanding of what you are attempting to understand. your handlers, the WT$ corp cult leaders continue to propagate the lie that 607 was the fall of Jeruslem. it was not. it was 587. and if 607 is untrue than so is 1914. sorry

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf I have that book. That's his book is one reason I say Gentile rule began in 607. He doesn't know it but even he is saying Gentile rule began in 607. All scholars do!!! You should read the book "times and dispentsations by Christopher Larkin. He out right says Gentile rule began in 607 and he also says Jerusalem was destroyed in 587. He said Russel was an apostate too! Why do you beleive the destruction of Jerusalem has anything to do with when Gentile rule?

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf Why do you think Gentile rule has anything to do with the destruction of Jerusalem? Is it because that is what the WT teaches? If so you've made the same mistake the WT has. The bible itself says that Gentile rule began 20 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. You need to put aside your bitterness and do some unbiased research?

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf If the church leaders are making but loads of money then why did Ray Franz have to get a job boxing groceries after getting the axe? Do some due diligence!!! Stop beleiving everything the anti-JW cults say!!!

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@wizzy812 read the Gentile Times Reconsidered and get back to me

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf why do you think that I haven't read that book? 7 years ago I noticed from bible chronology that Gentile Rule began 20 years before Jerusalem was destroyed. That would mean that if the WT was correct regarding the date jerusalem was destroyed then gentile rule would begin 627. I did an unbiased research and found that both historians and books written by antiJW cults confirmed that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587. Which means Gentile rule began 607. Russel was correct!!!

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@wizzy812 you believe in the teachings a religion that lies about the fall of Jerusulem, awesome, good for you, they can rewrite ancient history.. but so can THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER. a billion$ organization with no one at the top making any money living a good life (never said Ray was at the top) I bet you'll deny Rutherford rode in a Cadillac V-16 and lived in the mansion Beth Serim during the depression era. so whos the ruler of all these exjw cults anyway? the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf There is a difference between a lie and a mistake. The WT has made a mistake in thinking Jerusalem was destroyed the same time Gentile rule began. You too have made the same mistake do to not doing unbiased research. You are spreading a falsehood when you say Gentile Rule began in the year 587, something that is contrary to what secular historians say. Please do some unbiased research. You might stumble people with your falsehoods.

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf Why do you give a rip if Rutherford was a rich man during the great depression? Jesus was a zillion times richer than Rutherford during the great depression. Rutherford was an extremely wealthy Judge with his own law firm before he even met Russel! If it's sin for Rutherford to be wealthy then isn't it a sin for Jesus to be wealthy? I know an 86 year old woman that knew rutherford and I was told he bought the mansion with his own money.

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf If its a sin for rutherford to be rich while others starved is it a sin for you to be rich while others starve? I may very well be wrong but you may be rich in the eyes of those who are starving. How much do you give to those ones? I'm a very poor man that recently lived homelessly. I gave a little to those who were poor.

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf There are many virtual cults out there by exJW's. People have made them their, metaphorically speaking, cult leaders. They listen to all that they say and then they refuse to do an unbiased research into matters. Some have made Ray Franz their cult leader. BTW I corresponded with Ray for seven years. When he called a friend of mine and then invited me to his home I realized he was a friend of mine. I was quite saddend by his death.

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf I was wondering exactly who is making the shit loads of money from the WT like you claim. Can you give me some names? Did you ever read the book C of C by Ray? He never made any claims anyone was profiting from the WT.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@wizzy812 sorry to hear about your health i wish all the best to you. i've been in the WT for 35 years i have defended their teachings and preached them all my life (i know many in bethel) etc. And I like you encurage anyone reading this to do an independant study and draw your own conclusions NEVER EVER take any mans word at face value. i've done a MASSIVE amount of research but please don't believe me... in the word "believe" is the word LIE. Combating Cult Mind Control in number 1 in my book

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf I was wondering if you have read books written by both exJW cult leaders and secular historians and have gotton an unbiased view? I have done so. Perhaps it would speed things up if you were to call a Rabbi and ask him when Gentile rule began.

[wizzy812]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf I was curious as to why you evaded my question. If the WT's leadership is making shit loads of money then why did Ray Franz have to get a job boxing groceries after after getting reamed up the ass?

[Phx8ball602]

is it just me, or does this video sux??

[IoSonoIoProprioIo]

bad video, i can't understand nothing.

[Stopshoplifting]

RF is one of the meekest and non self serving individuals you will ever hear about. If you were ever part of the JW organization, you will see what he says is from the heart, true and in fact helpful to those of us who knew something was wrong with this religion, but were so deeply tied to it.

Take time to read his and listen to his mild mannered words and know that he left an organization he was at the top of. His conscience was his guide. I have never met him, but would like to.

[Piercingtheveil81]

Excellent!

[QuestForThruth]

Sorry for my english

WOW what a great thinker this SmalltimR!Why donate money to the watchtower if god will give them himself!

Doing the book,pay someone to correct it,pay someone to print the book.

When we see the life of this guy we all know that He must be someone who always have dreamed to be bill gate!

SmalltimR Please dont say what you think you're god must do because it can be really irrespectful for him.

[SmalltimR]

lol

I can't say I understand most of your post.

But.. I can say this.

I don't have a God.

Do you have a God?

Having a God, sounds like a significant possession. How does one acquire and/or keep a God exactly?

You don't really have to answer that question.

I just think it's ironic how people think and feel they somehow have authority on such matters.

[girlznguitarz]

Those who have read the Bible know what it says, there are many discrepancies between the religionists, it`s not about authority, it`s more about humility....to be humble enough to accept that `yes` all religions seem to have discrepancies.

[SmalltimR]

So the guy gets punished for acting against the rules of his organization and then... miraculously(suddenly)... his eyes are opened and he realizes that the organization he served for most of his life is corrupt?

Forgive me if I'm not sold on such a weak angle. Let alone the fact that he now chooses to capitalize on his wrongdoings by "so called" liberating others into the same freedom he has not inherited.

What a crock.

[crisisofconscience]

Actually, if you read the book, you'll see that Mr. Franz' crisis of conscience began years before he left the organization.

Regarding the revenue angle, the book, with its tiny audience, it is certainly not a money-making operation, though it does provide some small income for an elderly man and his wife.

If you believe that this book is the bitter rant of a man looking for revenge, you are in for a very big surprise. Mr. Franz displays a mildness that is truly refreshing. Please read!

[SmalltimR]

I read many chapters of the book and I have to say I am not impressed. Yes... he speaks with humility of his conflicts with others within the organization but I did not see any deliverance material within this acclaimed book did you?

The JW's give away publications and information as well as bibles. What does RF do? He sells his secretes. Maybe he has you convinced that he's the savior but even with the ultimate truth, Jesus was no book salesman!

[thebrickinator]

right on! he wants to profit from his sin! a regular bible bad boy!, he's gettin his 15 minutes!!!

[girlznguitarz]

sin?...he did nothing wrong....you have more sin than him for judging him.

[SmalltimR]

People see and hear what they want to see and hear. Just as people want to believe that an evangelist can save there soles for a price, people will believe that Raymond Franz has the gift for a price.

If Raymond Franz was in any way doing the work of the true God(his will), then he wouldn't be selling his material since God surely would have the capacity to take care of him.

I place this guy on the same shelf as the rest of those punished by the JW society, there all one is the same.

[james3v6]

"People see and hear what they want to see and hear."

Especially Watchtower devotees.

"He sells his secretes."

Are his secretes true? It wouldn't matter to you b/c: "People see and hear what they want to see and hear."

[SmalltimR]

lol

[girlznguitarz]

when you walk away from the watchtower, you walk away with nothing.....people HAVE to make a living, and the Bible says we have to work so we can eat...so FFranz was doing something to keep himself as well as telling the story....so I guess you`d maybe be the same one who would say, he was lazy if he did not work....even god says we have to work....thats how much you know anbout the Bible=NOTHING.

[SmalltimR]

None of that gibberish justifies selling bible secrets. The guy has clearly placed himself along with evangelists and the rest of the pan yielding kingdom proclaimers.

There's no two ways about this. The dude is full-o-shit. The more I read and see from him, the more it becomes obvious. He play's with an ace up his sleeve without ever producing it.

[girlznguitarz]

you say Bible secrets???? that dosnt make sense, there`s n secrets in the Bible...if you are referring to the covert of the watchtower, then just as Jesus had nothing to hide, the watchtower should have nothing to hide. If it does it cannot be truth based, as all truth if from God is to be told to all peoples. those who have things to hide are not doing Gods will.

[puckf17]

Yes he was ousted for lunching with someone who was apostate. After years of uneasiness it's clear THAT act was the beginning of the end, he must have known that. That was the point his inner dam burst. As for making a fortune on the book, ridiculous. It seems the JW devolved. Reading about the early days it seemed to have been a lot less rigid and centralized...but it took a down turn around 1920 and over the 3 decades, changed considerably, til it became what it is today.

[puckf17]

And what is a person supposed to do if they see many people suffering at the hands of a FEW that arbitrarily changes doctrine, so the flock feels ever mounting constraints, and then routinely judges people's transgressions, in an extremely biased way? A guy at the top would certainly be in a position to see all this. And this is someone who without a doubt, started out believing what he he had been taught.

[SmalltimR]

If you read his book you'd know that he was the subject of an organized apostasy at the upper ranks of the organization. As hard as it may be to believe... the outcome to such behavior would be the same for any organization.

I can't say I know much on the inner working of the JW enterprise. However, the guy earned his merit badge long before he chose to defy the rules which he upheld and enforced during the course of his own membership within the organization.

No surprises there really.

[Rwssel]

READ THIS BOOK NOW!

[genericduke]

Everyone, whether they are currently a witness, formerly a witness, or thinking of becoming a witness should consider this information. Raymond Franz's book is written with a calm, objective tone, and there is not a trace of bitterness or hatred toward the witness organization. He displays an earnest t desire to present the truth about the organization, information to which the majority of witnesses have absolutely no access. Read Crisis of Conscience, you will be glad you did.

[sinzenagain]

haha sounds like a watchtower tape, so is there anything different after 4th edition?

[NeoNikkiChan]

I've heard they've added some things from Barbara Anderson. I still haven't read it myself yet though but I really, reaaaally want to.

[girlznguitarz]

I heard barabra speak on rick farrons phone in...are you an ex JW?

[NeoNikkiChan]

Born into a Bible-reading Christian family, I'm happy to say I've never been a JW. I heard her speak then too. She seems like such a sweet lady. I'd love to meet her and give her a hug.

Feel free to check out my videos. I just walked around the Brooklyn Bethel last Saturday night and took some video of it.

[riciard55]

who can interpret the Bible

jesus said be simple eye become as kids

so who is right people or Jesus

[girlznguitarz]

the Bible, unless you read it in a foreign language, shoud need NO translation....

for example: the 6th Commandement says: Though shall not kill.....I think that`s pretty plain.

[NeoNikkiChan]

It actually says, "Do not murder" which is entirely different than just killing. I mean, eating meat is permitted in the Bible, right? If we aren't allowed to kill, then why is the consumption of meat permissible.

This is a common misquoting of the Bible that I've done too. :p

[floydiousdcco]

Do not forget the love of Jesus which extends to all of us. Jesus said,"Today, you will be with me in Paradise".

[freeyourmindnow]

more...

can we have more of this book read?

[girlznguitarz]

well you will have to read it `cos I`m tired

[thebrickinator]

you have to pay for the book, if billy mays was still alive, he would be pitching this lame book in the future SHAM POW!

[hagblay]

how in world can those still trapped cant see what tis is all about? Following men is all they are doing--I did it for 32 years--Finally the light got brighter for me and i got outta this nonsense-That is all it is- NONSENSE-They are losing members all over the world- Backward countries who know nothing is where they are growing--How come they dont grow in educated countries--Time is running out--Booze Rutheford- Tazze Russell discreet slaves? lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lollol lol lol

[michaelucho]

As a former Jehovahs Witness I greatly recommend this book. I found it to be very well documented and written in a very objective manner. I can personally relate to many of the things that are mentioned in the book. God bless!

[OpenPetal]

I need to get this book!

[Hiddenwindow]

I feel the utmost respect for this man...His first book, Crisis of Conscience is excellent and his second book, In Search of Christian freedom is even better; both are very thoughtful and informative books. I really thank him for having the courage of defying the Watch Tower, an organization that has taken the place that belongs to God.

[freeyourmindnow]

Very well said Hiddenwindow. Fighting against the WT is difficult, especially for people on the inside, who are trapped. The threat of having the WT compel all your friends and family whom you have known, perhaps all your life, to turn their back on you and shun you is a very really deterrent against speaking out against the evil of the WT. Stay tuned...

[OpenHuman]

Indeed. Information and emotional control at it's best.

[girlznguitarz]

is shunning in the Bble anywhere?

[NeoNikkiChan]

Yes, but the Watchtower abuses it in the name of keeping the purity of the congregations.