Classical versus Modern Dressage

[oliviabodycomb]

neither i would prefer natural horsemanship but for now Im doing english but when i get my own horse ill adopt

[pepinmotion1]

LOL! Dressage means training.. dressage is in any kind of riding and really to get back to "old school" dressage you would be training a war horse... side stepping used to crush a fallen .. leg aids to you can fight with your hands.. that is "old school" dressage. If your horse is broke to ride guess what it knows DRESSAGE! "Dressage" is the base of all riding.

[realityrider]

FYI the shot of the horse Anky is riding at Spruce Meadows is a horse Sjeff purchased at a youngish age and he had already been over ridden as a jumper, before coming to the stableand had head gear used on him. He had exceptional movement and they thought he might make a dressage horse, however everytime he was asked to move out or sit and carry himself he would drop the contact and bury his head, something he already knew how to do when purchased. Computer chair coaches like you need to go

[ForeverInLuvRA]

Ask a competent veterinarian what modern dressage methods are doing to a horse, and you'd be shocked to hear how 'win at all costs' permanently affects a horse. When you ask a horse to give his heart and soul, do not crush it by making him do something that may ultimately shorten his life or cause irreversible pain. Sadly, today's standards have made classical dressage a lost art. We just don't take the time to 'understand' what is truly important.

[EveDarkAngel666]

Hey also just wondering what music this is? its absolutely breathtaking!

[EveDarkAngel666]

I find it hard to explain to people because I tell lots of people I wanna reach the top and be at first place, but not alone and I think video sorta sums it up for me, I wanna be on top with a great friend and partner at my side who want to be there to y'know. I really feel inspired by those grand masters, I wish I could connect to horses like they do. My lease horses cando and I argue sometimes, but also seem to get the best out of each other anyway.

[vegee16]

so much respect for Nuno Oliveria

[JesusFreak494]

what is the difference between classic and modern? is it just the way the horses head is held? i dont know much about the showing part of riding :)

[Jefferdaughter]

@JesusFreak494 - The principle of Classical dressage is the full development of the horse's NATURAL abilities. The goal is a partnership between horse and rider so they are like a centaur - they move as one. In classical dressage you will see 'impulsion', but not tension. The head/neck is never overbent/overflexed, aka 'behind the bit', but the poll is the highest point of the neck and the profile is vertical. Classical methods develop the horse from a strong foundation.

[Jefferdaughter]

@JesusFreak494 - To be fair, 'Modern' dressage trainers (as the term is used here) are under pressure to get faster results. And rewarded in the ring by judges. Their methods tend to be more 'from the top down' rather than building the horse up through a solid foundation of exercizes in calm, enjoyable partnership with the horse. Most of these people mean well. Not all are hurting their horses through extreme methods. But grace. lightness, and oneness are often lacking.

[dardsuli]

please look at " classic meets doma vaquera" and look at Uta Graef. This is modern dressage.

[FireFlyHorzey]

8 people need to get their heads checked, I think a screw might be lose

[burghley7]

With all due respect to the message of the clip I really think that it is a good habit to take enough time to learn how to spell the names of people you admire!

[BlackPony96]

Beautiful. I love Classical dressage, I wish more people did it... Cant stand the modern crap... Have you seen the video on here that shows how keeping a horses head like that alters their bones and what not? It is just awful..

[scotchb29]

Oh please, don´t take Van Grunsven as an example of modern dressage!!! why not Hubertus Schmidt, Matthias Rath, Kyra Kirklund, there are so many wonderful riders!!!!!!!!! and on the other hand, please show movies of Nuno where he is riding a warmblood (not a spanish horse, they have a short and comfortable back) with regular bite, not always with a Kandarre!!

[everythingshiny]

There are great modern dressage riders out there. I don't know who does and does not use rollkur, but I love watching Andreas Helgestrand's WEG test on Blue Hors Matine, that was one horse who was loving her job. A shame Anky beat her to the gold medal, that little mare truly deserved it.

[sisqsis]

I've really enjoyed the polite discussion regarding this clip. It never degraded into the name calling and immaturity of others....thank youfor keeping it interesting, engaged and CLEAN!

[saz2626]

that clip of ankys passage is horrible, there is no connection between the hind end and the front, it's totally disconnected through the back!

[Tashakat]

Edward Gal Does (or has) used Rollkur, there is video evidence out there. He may not be as bad as Anky but he's certain not innocent. Give me Nuno and his method of riding any day. I have to wonder how famous Edward and Totilas would have been if Toto was chestnut rather than black!

[Dressageriderrobin]

To be honest i don't agree with everything in the video, but i agree that classical was definitely more gentle and kind to the horse. Although, what was so special about Totilas and Edward Gal is that they had a great connection and this is what brought them as high as they were and if Totilas was not willing to do anything for Edward then they would have not gotten so famous. On the other hand i think that anky and sjef have a bad and torturous training technique. But the video was great!

[mizkcim]

The discussion "Classical" and "Modern" is artificial. Why not discuss "good" and "bad" riding, disregarding the discipline. Ingrid Klimke is for example one of the greats. Francois Baucher is seen as a classical rider for many, but he was an advocate of hyperflexion and "modern" and anti-classical at his time. When Podalski took over the riding school in vienna, he got the horses moving forward again, Was the riding school "anti-classical" before he took over.

[ArabKate]

not a big fan of Anky but Edward Gal i dont mind, he doesnt use hyper flexion and rollkur as bad as Anky

[animeodyssey15]

The classical stuff was very nice, it looked like true collection. I've only read one book on the subject so far, but it stated that when a horse is truly collected, the hindquarters will lower and the horizontal line that lies just beneath the horse's nose will rise above the lowered hindquarters. The hindquarters will be completely engaged and the horse's rear hooves overstep their front hooves' tracks. They will raise their back and the head will be on or slightly in front of the vertical.

[Spudsie]

I think if we were doing for the horse..well..we'd put them with 100 other horses in a thousand acres of land somewhere. I get the drift they dont want to be ridden at all!

[equistriangirl]

The horses head has to have rein so the movements are smooth and so the hardest movements look easy. Tight reins and rolkurs cause the horses movements to become bunchy and coiled + tight and limited

[horses522008]

Is that a Leapord Appallosa in older tape? Billy Joe Freckles, trained by Chuck grant??? I had a daughter and grand daughter of his.

[horses522008]

First of all Nuno Oliveira's book "Reflextions On Equestrian Art", is a wonderful book in my collection!!

I would tell any rider pulling their horses chin to his own chest to get off their horse, put their own head betwen their knees, for how ever long they made their horse do it! Why are the judges awarding this brutal behaviour? Fire them. Why has the Queen of Jordan allowed this to continue. She is the president of FEI!

[upfrontmeagain]

THANK YOU!

[aryvideooo]

you're soo right, Oliveira and P Karl are fantastic horse men and modern dressage have lost what it is all about! (two creatures working togheter in perfect harmony, lightness and why not,, having fun).

[Falschverbunden0815]

Thank you SO much!!!

[FeeTurbule]

poor Oliveira, compared to modern riders... why do you compare, we know!

[KCRanchLipizzaners]

Very nice video!

[astoria791]

VERY NICE!

[lilmisshorsey14]

nice video, it was well put together. and i am not arguing or being rude or anything, but just because Anky and Edward use these horrid methods that is so called 'modern' dressage, the rest of the world who uses modern dressage do not also do this or use these methods. i ride modern, and basically everyone i know also does, but NOT like Anky and Edward and we never would. we DO NOT use the rollkur or anything, but still ride modern dressage in a kind way. does that make sense? nice vid though x

[lassiesuca]

@lilmisshorsey14 thanks for your comments, when I made this video I think I was a little naive, I respect that and there are modern riders out there who I am sure have respect and empathy for the horse- but then I'm sure you all have classical principles in mind too- because that is what it is based upon!!! x

[lilmisshorsey14]

@lassiesuca oh okay, thank you :) yes, i probably do! i agree with you. would you mind explaining to me what this version of classical dressage is, as now i am not sure that it is the same as the one that pops into my mind when i read 'classical riding'. thank you :) x

[litia]

@lilmisshorsey14 no it does not make sense.

if you ride modern dressage you ride according to the FEI's methods. Now I am not saying that you're using rollkur because rollkur isn't mandatory but that means you use low hands, you don't know what lightness is or how to achieve it and that is because modern dressage ignores it.

[coucouper1]

@lilmisshorsey14 I know exactly where you stand as I stood there once, but if you ever have the chance to ride with a 'classical' dressage rider do it. You'll be amazed by how much damage we do to our horses by making them carry their heads the way we do and the way we use the bit. Even really amazing modern riders still have these problems unfortunately (even without the Rollkur and crank nosebands etc). Let me know when you get stuck at 3rd or 4th level :P That's what happened to me.

[Dressageriderrobin]

MODERN!!!!

[Springinthefield]

The horses get more place to express themself. You see a real communication between horse and rider. Much more space for emotion and less plastic and painfull dressure poses.

[jinahaltayr]

A person who I have very recently discovered who interests me quite a bit is Harry Chaim Faibish. He trained for a short while with Nuno amongst others men. Also I quite appreciate Dominique Barbier who also trained with Nuno for awhile.

Please enjoy all of the horses in your life for they are gifts from God.

[jinahaltayr]

I am grateful to know that there are others in this world who know a little bit of how I feel about true Classical Dressage. There are others out there that have similar values to these two great men however, it can be more challanging to find them. However, keep looking :)

[jinahaltayr]

Through the classical way of riding I have become a better rider and have had more of a connection with both of my geldings one of which I have had since I was a little girl. You can teach an older horse new things and usuing Classical methods can help an older horse with so much. My older horse started working with my trainer when he was 21 years old and he is still going strong at 26.

[jinahaltayr]

I will do my best to humbly say that I know who Colonel Alois Podhajsky and Maestro Nuno Oliveira are. I have a deep heartfelt appreciation for these two horsemen. They both are men that my own current trainer who is a native of Guatemala and who is 68 years young uses for reference in his training methods. I am able to appreciate the Classical way of riding very much.

[jinahaltayr]

Beautifully Said

[dressagerevolution]

Excellent video and astute comparison.

If you are interested in helping to end this kind of front-to-back riding and move back to a classical ideal, please consider visiting the new not-for-profit dressagerevolution-dot-com.

[Dressageriderrobin]

i go with modern without ABUSE!!

[bevinallison]

I just saw a show Sunday and a trainer was asked about the horses impulsion by another lady. The trainer said, I don't care about impulsion I care about control. I want to have control of this horse before I have impulsion. Control isn't even in the pyramid and I became disgusted as I watched all these horses in 3rd level tests so unhappy and resisting missing basic elements while their trainers tried t control them. So sad to watch.

[unicorndream]

I find it disturbing that the goal of many riders (in all disciplines) seems to be domination of the horse, instead of wanting the horse to work with them, that attitude had led towards so many problems.

[4Champ2and0]

@unicorndream I agree! I bought a little pony who has had a rough history and fights any kind of domination. So I am going to try Friendship Training with him. So far(we haven't even started yet, just took some advice from the web site until I get the money saved) he has responded to it like a fish to water! I highly recommend it as it does not involve domination, but instead peer bonding. I would be more than happy to share info or give the web site to anyone who wants it. :)

[sarahlouisefox]

I know what you are trying to say here and essentially I agree,but I have to say the old vids of Nuno arent imo the best comparison,in the first clip he looks pi**ed and the 2nd his horse is swishing its tail all over the place.

Ive yet to see a vid of Nuno that really demonstrates the best of the classical tradition......

[AnimalsAreEverything]

That's it! I agree with the definition of dressage here, but classical principals can be incorperated into modern competition! I'm working on a video now of GOOD modern dressage. This bashing of horse's greatest sport ought to stop.

[shirehorse9]

@AnimalsAreEverything,

Incorrect training destroys horses mentally and physically. Bad training needs to be bashed and the trainers held accountable.

[smithywess1]

please the crowd. Tension in the horse with exaggerated rider movements is the name of the game. Thank you for putting this video on.

[smithywess1]

The problem is that if all you've seen, and the more you see, Judges awarding very high marks for incorrect work that incorrect work eventually becomes accepted as normal. Modern dressage is essentially circus to

[Flamingmoonson]

I do not entirely agree with EVERY thing in the video, but I'm really Glad Someone is remembering Podhajsky and Nuno. No one seems to know who they were. And of course classical is the best it has been for the last 200 years! Lovely LOvely video! with very good points.

[lassiesuca]

Thankyou, and would be intrequied to know what you don't agree on, I know not all modern dressage isn't the same, but everything I have seen has been portrayed as this, I am a huge fan of Nuno, Podhajsky and Karl, both very great horsemen, along with other great masters, classical is the most beautiful thing, and Nuno was an amazing horsemen, glad you enjoyed the video x

[Flamingmoonson]

I personally don't agree with the amounts of time people keep their horse in the hyper-flexed frame. I have seen countless riders use it, without understanding the mechanics of how and when to use it. They seem to think that riding like that for long periods of time is how Professionals work. They forget that it is like a Hot Yoga, done, in Very short bursts, I don't like how long anky keeps her horses in that frame. But for a select few horses at the peak of their training, it can be a

[Flamingmoonson]

useful, but dangerous tool. I do not think that many people understand how to use it, and I have noticed too, that more and more people are abandoning traditional and safe approaches, inorder to get a "quick" fix. I think that when used sparingly, carefully and professionally, Hyper flexion, can be useful, but it will always be a short cut. and Classical dressage does not allow for proper training to involve shortcuts. Thanks for listening.

[lassiesuca]

Yeah, I respect that, I have passionate hate about rollkur and I just don't think anyone should use it, simply because it can do so much damage, and even if it is useful, riders such as anky will just abuse that and use it in extensive periods, it is such a shame that this is the case of course, thankyou for your views :)

[EtioleFilante]

There ARE still classical riders that compete today and its not nearly as boring as those vids you put of classical. Put clips of Monica Theodorescu or something, she's actually exciting to watch AND classical. You can have the best of BOTH worlds.

[lassiesuca]

Nuno Oliveira is probably one of the greatest horsemen to walk this planet, no, I don't want to put clips of Monica, because its not all about it being exciting, but watching Nuno work with his horse gives me goosebumps, that is true horsemanship, I don't care if you find it boring, I think its beautiful.

[YowArePoof1]

Great videoo :) aww black beauty I love that film :')

[onelasssttime]

Love this vid,, great job. (What's the music??).. and what do you think of Klimke and Alreich though?

[lassiesuca]

thankyou and the music is the Black Beauty theme tune by Danny Elfman, and to be honest, I don't really know much about Klimke or Alreich, so I don't know much about their work or training methods- insight me :) x

[onelasssttime]

Duh,..... OMG, I knew I knew the music..... ;-? Beautiful, still..30 years later from seeing the film and I am still riding

[StephanieHOLLYx]

I likee itttt :D x

Not all modern dressage is like this though so please dont be fooled. Rolkur. Eww HATE IT! HATE IT!

[lassiesuca]

no i know, but just in general i prefer the classical way of riding, Its just I'd rather ride like that, however, yes I agree I am sure there are riders out there who are doing fine, but I expect a lot of them have trained under classical principles, and god Roll Kur- bleugh, its disgusting :)

[lassiesuca]

recommend some v.good books which are useful, Philippe Karls' twisted truths of modern dressage, one i'm reading at the moment opened my eyes to the truths of dressage and made you look twice when you watched a dressage rider, also, alois podhajsky's complete training of horse and rider is a fantastic book, there are dvd's and of course, Nuno himself has written various books, amazon them! I think watching the contrast of both classical and modern dressage together shows the difference in them

[fkingxmelxvengeance]

another great video, Amy. I really enjoyed watching this, I am a lover of dressage, i do think that modern horses are beautiful (I'm a lover of Moorlands Totilas, not really a fan of Anky though!) I've got to say, i've never watched classical dressage before but there is such a difference in the horses' movement and attitude towards their work. Modern horses in dressage always look unhappy and stiff, whereas the 2 clips you used here to portray classical dresssage show their horses as happy &

[fkingxmelxvengeance]

enthusiastic towards their work. There limbs move freely and effortlessly like it's no trouble at all. Your videos and talking to you about the subject has shown me that it'd be a good idea for not only myself but everyone to have a good look at some classical dressage techniques. Plus, the song goes amazingly with the video, i recognise it...refresh me lol, where's it from? xxx

[lassiesuca]

the song is black beauty theme tune, i can send you it if you like :) and thankyou Mel :) I know, i think we could all benefit from classical training, because I think a lot of people I've talked to have thought its very restrictive, but it actually helps you in showjumping, xc, any discipline that you want to specialize in, it just provides good, flatwork and horsemanship and is beneficial to all type of rider, so I'd defanitely recommend it, if your wanting to read up on it, then i can