Lessons from Past Western Incursions in the Middle East

[fismail07]

Egypt after the French was a better place with better chances. Without the French incursion it would has lingered in the middle ages for a longer period, and would have made much less progress. So even if the French did not succeed at the time, they had a positive impact on Egypt. The same is with Iraq, even if the U.S does not completely succeed now, it will have given Iraq a chance to change to the better, and perhaps the entire region.

[QuixoticM]

That is pretty odious. That is colonial mentality. "They were worse off before [we] came". When you invade a foreign people, there is no excuse sufficient to justify your actions. You have infringed on their freedom. They did want or ask for any foreign intervention, did anybody ask the people who lost their mothers, brothers, etc whether they were willing to sacrifice them so "Iraq has a chance to get better?" Would YOU agree to give up your family for some future progress? Don't think so.

[fismail07]

@QuixoticM that is a rhetorical question, and irrelevant to the central issue here. Our modern world is one, what one part of it does effects the rest in all ways. The west has established world leadership and justly so. The Middle East is a region with serious problems, and does not have the ability, nor the will to get itself out its mess without major help. left to its own it will not only destroy itself, but quite possibly the rest of the world with it!

[QuixoticM]

"The west has established world leadership and justly so."

Are you serious? You cannot mean that seriously. "Justly"? Does that mean that you are not aware how imperialism worked? In the Americas? Africa? Asia? MIddle East?

Anyway, the middle east has problems? Well we have the west to thank for that- specifically, Britain and France, and later the US. But fundamentally, the random partitioning of the Ottoman empire, bungling of the Israel issue...

[QuixoticM]

...Propping of dictators and unpopular governments in Iran (the shah was our guy, they overthrew a democratically elected government to get him there), Iraq (Don't forget, Saddam was our guy), syria, Lebanon etc.

And how is my question irrelevant? I asked you if you think it is fair that some group of people out there decide that it is okay for you to lose all your family for the sake of progress. And those people did not even have a say. The human factor cannot be overlooked.

[QuixoticM]

Just because what one part of the world does, affects every other, does not mean that one country can impose it's will on another. And i'd point out that since US intervention, the region is WORSE rather than better. Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan... Interfering militarily just builds up their resentment of the western world.

[QuixoticM]

That said, i do appreciate your argument, as morally wrong as i think you are.

[HighVoltage18388]

DUDEEE! fucking longest vid on youtoube I've ever seeen...woooot!!!

[DonFamoso]

Death to Imperialism We coming for all you imperialist.

[DecentWatch]

Napoleon's Egypt: Invading the Middle East Bookmark Program

Author: Juan Cole

Upcoming Schedule  Sunday, September 9, at 10:00 PM

[tycoonassassin]

30,000 people is only 1/100th of 1 percent of the U.S population so the GOv doenst care.

[truegangsteroflove]

Now we are in more serious times. With the climate going haywire, the economy on the verge of collapse, and the ruling elite a criminal element, it is critical that the level of dialogue raise to a higher level. Having an "opinion" is not a qualification for significance. There is such a thing as intelligence.

[truegangsteroflove]

Decades ago, when I started graduate school, one of the sidewalks on campus had "STIKE" painted on it. The maintenance crew left it that way for posterity. Hmm. I guess I should explain. During the days of Vietnam protests, student strikes were common. Often, attempted leaders were not so bright.

[truegangsteroflove]

Then we get "hey guys-why dont u get it?" Semi-literate comments like this abound on the Web, written by angry, inarticulate, know-it-all-but-doing-nothing denizens from the peanut gallery. Nothing is added to our understanding, and the comment goes nowhere, helping only to give the angry one a quick ego hit.

[truegangsteroflove]

One key aspect of our current predicament is the democratization of know-it-allness. Juan Cole studies the history of the Mideast for a living, and provides insightful, necessary, yea informed comment on the various aspects of the Bush criminal regime's invasion and occupation of Iraq.

[sozifilied]

The alternative? apathy?

Comment should only be made by those who understand the esoteric arguments made by academics?

The great thing about the internet is that media is democratized.

rvignozzi was expressing his opinion, and that is valid.

What are you doing? articulating your delusion of superiority, nothing more.

[rvignozzi]

hey guys-why dont u get it? USA is imperial power much like ancient Rome was. Empire is expanding, there is no counterweight- USA will not leave IRAQ- New president, even democrat, will face same choice: leave and lose it all or stay the course and bleed. USA will eventually destroy everyting and find a compromise- by then USA will have lost 10k troops and may 40k wounded. Not a bad result. USA has 300mln people, so barely noticeable losses.

[Xenu]

Prof. Cole: Wouldn't it have just been much easier to rid Saddam by ending the US/UK sanctions? We know he was perilously close to losing his grip on power but Clinton decided to weaken the population with sanctions & attempt to engineer a pro-US cabal rather aid a popular uprising. Same with Bush Sr. supporting Saddam after war rather than aid the Shia uprising.