Greg Koukl - Can God's Existence Be Proved? - Part 2 of 2

[YouAreIsrael]

Greg, isn't the first and only real evidence we need is to see God in Christ? We can know God exists and the evidence for His existence in the perfect life of Jesus can we not?

[Hufflewaffle]

'God' is a metaphor that points to the subjective mystery of life beyond all categories of feeling or thought. God is not some piece of objective knowledge. God is not a 'being' or an 'energy' or anything. There is a reason we talk about "religious experience", You don't 'prove' experiences, you simply express them. That's what people do in ritual and art. Its what nature does! Getting caught up in trying to prove 'god' as an actual objective 'being' is ridiculous. It makes no sense to even try.

[anewdayproductions]

@Hufflewaffle so says the arbitrary fool. 

[drumrnva]

How can something be measured other than "by the senses"? If it is not perceived, then......?

[SeraphsWitness]

@drumrnva By the mind?

[drumrnva]

@SeraphsWitness Too subjective.

[SeraphsWitness]

@drumrnva Just answering your question. You trust your mind every day to deliver information, don't you?

Love cannot be perceived or tested by the naturalistic senses... do you believe in love?

[drumrnva]

@SeraphsWitness I have no choice but to trust my mind. What else is there? I don't believe in 'love' as a thing unto itself, no. It's an action word. Love can only be perceived in actions, in my opinion. Love is part of how we bond, and bonding is how we exist in relative harmony with our fellow humans.

[SeraphsWitness]

@drumrnva Cool. I agree.

So whether or not your mind is subjective perception is not the issue... it's whether or not it's worthy of trust. Seemingly, you trust your mind. By what else can we measure truth? Even your perception of science is with the use of your self-proclaimed "subjective" mind. Yet I assume you trust that.

[drumrnva]

@SeraphsWitness Again, I trust my mind because what other choice do I have? Sometimes my mind isn't 'worthy' of trust. I trust my (limited) perception of science because it has built-in attempts to disprove itself. To me naturalism means coming to the best conclusions with all the information that we can gather. It strives to remove subjectivity. It seems that you're referring to a greater subjectivity here, which I can't deny. But we have to make decisions somehow, right?

[SeraphsWitness]

@drumrnva Perhaps. I'm just postulating that perhaps there are things beyond what we can naturally observe and test.

I agree with you though.

[drumrnva]

@SeraphsWitness Well, I get that. To me the problem with things that can't be naturally observed/tested is, how do you have a conversation about them? I don't know the answer, and maybe that's why I became a non-believer. I just don't know how to speak about things outside time/space. I have enough trouble understanding things that are *inside* those boundaries. You've made me think, though. Thank you.

[ofssk]

excellent video !!

[l337pwnage]

/watch?v=1r0lO5nFEBA

[Cthulu51]

I don't think St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, et al. ever intended their arguments to be sure fire arguments for the existence of God. They were more attempts at buttressing existing faith. Causes occur temporally prior to their effects. Since there was no "before" the begining of the universe this would seem to present a problem for a first cause for the universe.

[worldsworstjukebox]

"We will show them our proofs in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient enough as a witness of all things?"

[Inqoinf]

wow, this guy has the understanding of science of a 3 year old.... wow... legendary fail

[SeraphsWitness]

@Inqoinf What does he misunderstand about science? I want to know.

[worldsworstjukebox]

P.S. Typical theist. They go on and on about WHAT they believe but don't spend a moment backing it up with WHY they believe it, let alone how it proves what they believe is true versus others who believe contradicting ideologies.

[worldsworstjukebox]

It's become endlessly amusing to hear "intelligent," grown adults trying to prove the existence of their superstitions. They will gladly dismiss all the other wacky belief systems (i.e. the religions they don't subscribe to) but then they go on and on about how valid the one THEY believe in, somehow not seeing the delusional rationalizing they are engaging it. If their God was really there you'd think it'd be more obvious and there'd be no need to debate, it would be self-evident.

[confluential]

Why on earth would you start by saying "God" is not finite? That's a faulty premise right there! Until he can clear up what is meant by the word "God" in the first place the argument ends right there.Geez.

[rodanosamehr]

Good presentation

[Xaulted]

This is a great video. Please please keep them coming Greg!

[findyourintelligence]

What about King Solomon? I thought that he was supposed to be the smartest. (Besides Jesus of course)

[aud4c1ty]

Solomon was the wisest man. Being smart and being wise are two different things. ;-)

[findyourintelligence]

Thank you for clearing that up.

[idlehands357]

Could you prove it for me?

[gongwongton]

read proverbs, solomon's advice and wisdom is evident.

[idlehands357]

Oh. No, I meant could you prove the difference between being smart and being wise. My question was in reply to aud4c1ty's statement -- when I clicked "reply" on his post, however, it placed my question below findyourintelligence's.

[aud4c1ty]

Sorry, I've been busy.

Wisdom would be the ability to aptly apply your intelligence or what you've learned toward problems. Being smart or intelligent would be the ability to learn something. If you know all that laws (your intelligence allowed you to understand and learn them) but you go out and break the laws, you aren't being wise, but your still smart.

[idlehands357]

Thank you

[aud4c1ty]

No problem and my apologies again for the late response.

[findyourintelligence]

What about King Solomon? I thought that he was supposed to be the smartest. (Besides Jesus of course)

[justchemicals]

Indeed. How could God have said what PSALM 14 says or for that matter ROMANS 1:20 unless the evidence was "overwhelming!"

Thanks, Greg. Please keep 'em coming.

[SavedTru8]

Agreed.

[gCuezy]

Awesome... just listened to this the other day. Don't know if Greg reads these but it's thanks to people like him, Hank Hanagraaf, Walter Martin, CS Lewis etc etc I was able to leave an anti-intellectual Christian "cult" (oneness Pentecostalism) and now aspire to get my PhD or ThD and start or be a part of an organization like STR.