Yikes. Quoting scripture to atheists? You may as well quote Dr. Seuss. The answer to your question as to how the universe came about is 'we don't know yet.' It's not really that hard. Oh, and did you say evolution is 'worshipping birds and fish?' Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry, but I can't find a lot of hope in the fact that your only justification for doing good things or being a good person is because a book tells you to. This is why man created religions and gods in the first place. If you want people to toe the line and be good sheep, then you need to convince them that if they stray, there are eternal punishments for bad behavior.
I would say it's very close minded to not be able to see her point of view. You have no ability to understand perspective.
I understand the concept of god 100%. I think people who believe in a god do so because of individual needs for a god.
Typically people create gods to suit their needs per social area in which they live and where raised.
You have psyched yourself out so much with God, you fail to see that those not indoctrinated have all of the moral and ethical ideas everyone else has.
2:28 "So the debate isn't about whether you want there to be a god or not...that's not even an argument that matters." Well maybe it should be, since evidence points to the concept of god having been created by humans. If a god did actually exist, it would still be our choice whether or not to believe in it/him. So why shouldn't we ask the question, "Either why have we created a god, or why do we choose to believe in a god that we could just as well ignore?"
The universe doesn't owe you a sense of hope, so if you want to try to find an inauthentic one, that's up to you. Or you can do your best and try to find one that's authentic without religion, through your relationships and what you love to do.
"Where would you find, meaning, hope, how would you explain moral law or love. How could you say that I'm wrong should I choose to harm you?" You don't need god or religion to explain these things. Political science and philosophy are constantly-evolving ways of dealing with issues of morality, better than looking to some ancient book, which remains constant and clearly has some problems applying morally to today's issues. I don't see what the existence of a supreme being does for morality.
Are you saying that you are incapable of discerning right from wrong without referring to the guidance in the bible? It is arrogant to suggest that atheists cannot do this.. The bible it is full of stuff that we know is wrong, slavery, genocide, child abuse, incest, preachers do not preach these parts, they choose the 'good bits' love thy neighbor etc, so how do they know which bits are good or bad? the bible obviously does not tell them! We use our own judgement.
Your problem is that you ADMIT that you start out bias....You say "I personally don't want a God" and "The thought of a God existing makes me sick"..is someone with this mindset really going to be considered a non biased judge of the evidence...of course not..with that starting point no judge in the world would allow you as a juror. What is need to do is press the reset button, and begin "looking" at the clues, the evidence, presented with no personal care for where the evidence may lead.
I see a problem when you try to answer questions with where did we come from, where are we going (do we need to be going anywhere?), etc. by using a god for the black filler. That is just too simplistic and not based on reason.
I personally don't want a god, and if there is one I would fight it with all I have. The thought of a god existing makes me sick.
I could care less about the he said she said crap. I quoted Romans 6...God is plainly saying when you read the text that..one of the most blatant ways he has manifested some of himself and attributes is within the creation itself. Just as a painting reflects the attributes of the painter...this in no way....If you were a first century christian staring into the eyes of lions that your being fed to for your faith there is not "I just want there to be a god in that moment...It REALITY.
1.By default a God that created Time and Space is obviously outside of it...
2.God has stated about himself that He is infinite and Eternal
3.I didn't admit that it was impossible to understand Revelation from God..for the very word mean to "Unveil"..So if god chooses to show us something.. the obvious purpose is for us to understand it. What I did say is that a finite mind can not think that he will ever be able to fully understand the infinite...that is impossible..God Reveals and we do "SEE"
Your statement nonwithstanding, I have lost count of the times a believer asked me 'don't you even want there to be a god?' as if that made a difference. While it might not play a role in your beliefs, the desire for a god plays a big part in many people's belief in one, and people lacking that desire are usually either atheists or very moderate secular believers.
@adamdimora While I agree that desire has no bearing on the existence of god (or most things), its not atheists who usually bring it up as an argument. Not only do you hear people claiming their desire for god led them to belief, they also accuse atheists of being so simply because they desire god not to exist. Indeed, those verses you quoted reinforce this erroneous notion in the minds of many believers.
I don't think even theists can imagine god. Not by the usual definitions anyways. The abrahamic gods are defined in a way that defies imagination. I think theists who claim they can imagine their god actually have in mind a finite approximation themselves. I can imagine e.g. Zeus & the greek pantheon, but not the omnipotent, omniscient gods of the bible.
You are correct...how could a finite mind understand the infinite? You've answered your own question, its impossible..But the fact that we as finite humans can't fully grasp an infinite God has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not God exists, nor does it diminish in any way our understanding of God where he has chosen to reveal himself...Whether by the Creation itself, the written WORD, through he profits and ultimately in Personage of Jesus Christ..Who was God in Flesh.
@adamdimora Well, I wasn't asking a question, but your response raises a very interesting one. Bearing in mind your response, how can you state that what you're talking about is something infinite, since you admit you have no way of ascertaining it? How can you discern the revelation of the infinite from the manifestations of the finite, when you admit to it being impossible. Ultimately, the best you can do is guess and hope.
Concerning your question of where an atheist draws conclusions from, for me, it's faith in my physical senses, my brain functions and my memory, noting the fallibility of each. That's certainly nothing to worship, but that's all I gots!
You need to rethink your wording of "scientific fact". Beyond the Big Bang Event Horizon, it's all hypothesis. The 2nd Law of Thermo. does not account for many processes in this universe which can recapture unusable energy. Creation is not a scientific fact.
@robtbo But I do agree that it seems such a statement makes one incapable of understanding an alternate view and incapable of making a proper personal estimate of such a view.
1.Where does scripture ask you to ignore my intellect?
2.She made the statement that intellectually she couldn't conceive a God, not would she want to..That is a very Shallow statement. Simply use your mind and you can Intellectually conceive the existent of a God and in turn the Implications!!! And its the Implications that are responsible for laying the groundwork on and debate...I was simply connecting the simple fact that its very easy to intellectually envision a God believer or not.
@adamdimora "1.Where does scripture ask you to ignore my intellect?"
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;"
About your comments on morality, "mere animal instincts" is actually why we have morality. Animals abide by rules, can love each other, can display altruism. We just do that on a more complex level.
And Paul's verse just seems like a Christian opposite of what Fact vs Religion was saying.
That verse never says throw out your brains, and stop using your intellect...Look its a fact that there a just some things we as humans cant understand in the natural realm..how much more in the supernatural...God is saying "Trust Me" even when some thing you cant fully "Grasp"...Read the rest of the scripture in context.
If God exists he is a "SUPER MIND" and we are created in his likeness.. this is why we have some God Like abilities..the ability to Create for example..
@adamdimora That verse and others makes it clear that we're suppose to put faith in a god over our own intellect. And if God (or rather the person who speaks to him) says something that goes against our intellect, to forget our own thoughts.
There's actually natural explanations for why we create. In fact, most human behavior can be better understood by studying other mammals, not relying on revelation.
@adamdimora You don't have to care what other people care about. Some people don't.
I think V.S. Ramachandran has done some interesting research on why we tend to care about others.
He has a hypothesis(?) about mirror neurons in our brains that mirror situations. So for example if someone gets stabbed in the hand we feel bad because our brain calculates (not consciously perhaps) what it would feel like if we get stabbed in the hand. It explains empathy.
Sorry I'm not going to watch the whole video it's a bit long.
I can try to answer one of the questions you wrote:
"how would you explain moral law"
Moral law is subjective and has changed over time. There is no objective moral law.
The things that influence what we consider moral are many. Society has a large impact on what we consider moral - that's why different countries/locations have different morals.
Yikes. Quoting scripture to atheists? You may as well quote Dr. Seuss. The answer to your question as to how the universe came about is 'we don't know yet.' It's not really that hard. Oh, and did you say evolution is 'worshipping birds and fish?' Jesus Christ.
jfinite 1 week ago
I'm sorry, but I can't find a lot of hope in the fact that your only justification for doing good things or being a good person is because a book tells you to. This is why man created religions and gods in the first place. If you want people to toe the line and be good sheep, then you need to convince them that if they stray, there are eternal punishments for bad behavior.
badsaj1 1 week ago
I would say it's very close minded to not be able to see her point of view. You have no ability to understand perspective.
I understand the concept of god 100%. I think people who believe in a god do so because of individual needs for a god.
Typically people create gods to suit their needs per social area in which they live and where raised.
You have psyched yourself out so much with God, you fail to see that those not indoctrinated have all of the moral and ethical ideas everyone else has.
darkmatteruniverse 1 month ago
2:28 "So the debate isn't about whether you want there to be a god or not...that's not even an argument that matters." Well maybe it should be, since evidence points to the concept of god having been created by humans. If a god did actually exist, it would still be our choice whether or not to believe in it/him. So why shouldn't we ask the question, "Either why have we created a god, or why do we choose to believe in a god that we could just as well ignore?"
LibertyArtist 2 months ago
3:16 Here's where the video really takes a turn for the worse.
LibertyArtist 2 months ago
The universe doesn't owe you a sense of hope, so if you want to try to find an inauthentic one, that's up to you. Or you can do your best and try to find one that's authentic without religion, through your relationships and what you love to do.
LibertyArtist 2 months ago
"Where would you find, meaning, hope, how would you explain moral law or love. How could you say that I'm wrong should I choose to harm you?" You don't need god or religion to explain these things. Political science and philosophy are constantly-evolving ways of dealing with issues of morality, better than looking to some ancient book, which remains constant and clearly has some problems applying morally to today's issues. I don't see what the existence of a supreme being does for morality.
LibertyArtist 2 months ago
Are you saying that you are incapable of discerning right from wrong without referring to the guidance in the bible? It is arrogant to suggest that atheists cannot do this.. The bible it is full of stuff that we know is wrong, slavery, genocide, child abuse, incest, preachers do not preach these parts, they choose the 'good bits' love thy neighbor etc, so how do they know which bits are good or bad? the bible obviously does not tell them! We use our own judgement.
thejazzman1959 3 months ago
DUDE... GET A HAIR CUT.
imapecker 3 months ago
Your problem is that you ADMIT that you start out bias....You say "I personally don't want a God" and "The thought of a God existing makes me sick"..is someone with this mindset really going to be considered a non biased judge of the evidence...of course not..with that starting point no judge in the world would allow you as a juror. What is need to do is press the reset button, and begin "looking" at the clues, the evidence, presented with no personal care for where the evidence may lead.
adamdimora 4 months ago
I see a problem when you try to answer questions with where did we come from, where are we going (do we need to be going anywhere?), etc. by using a god for the black filler. That is just too simplistic and not based on reason.
I personally don't want a god, and if there is one I would fight it with all I have. The thought of a god existing makes me sick.
rodolfoi2000 4 months ago
I could care less about the he said she said crap. I quoted Romans 6...God is plainly saying when you read the text that..one of the most blatant ways he has manifested some of himself and attributes is within the creation itself. Just as a painting reflects the attributes of the painter...this in no way....If you were a first century christian staring into the eyes of lions that your being fed to for your faith there is not "I just want there to be a god in that moment...It REALITY.
adamdimora 4 months ago
1.By default a God that created Time and Space is obviously outside of it...
2.God has stated about himself that He is infinite and Eternal
3.I didn't admit that it was impossible to understand Revelation from God..for the very word mean to "Unveil"..So if god chooses to show us something.. the obvious purpose is for us to understand it. What I did say is that a finite mind can not think that he will ever be able to fully understand the infinite...that is impossible..God Reveals and we do "SEE"
adamdimora 4 months ago
Your statement nonwithstanding, I have lost count of the times a believer asked me 'don't you even want there to be a god?' as if that made a difference. While it might not play a role in your beliefs, the desire for a god plays a big part in many people's belief in one, and people lacking that desire are usually either atheists or very moderate secular believers.
Cafeeine 4 months ago
@Cafeeine
Sorry and the point you were making was?
adamdimora 4 months ago
@adamdimora While I agree that desire has no bearing on the existence of god (or most things), its not atheists who usually bring it up as an argument. Not only do you hear people claiming their desire for god led them to belief, they also accuse atheists of being so simply because they desire god not to exist. Indeed, those verses you quoted reinforce this erroneous notion in the minds of many believers.
Cafeeine 4 months ago
I don't think even theists can imagine god. Not by the usual definitions anyways. The abrahamic gods are defined in a way that defies imagination. I think theists who claim they can imagine their god actually have in mind a finite approximation themselves. I can imagine e.g. Zeus & the greek pantheon, but not the omnipotent, omniscient gods of the bible.
Cafeeine 4 months ago
@Cafeeine
You are correct...how could a finite mind understand the infinite? You've answered your own question, its impossible..But the fact that we as finite humans can't fully grasp an infinite God has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not God exists, nor does it diminish in any way our understanding of God where he has chosen to reveal himself...Whether by the Creation itself, the written WORD, through he profits and ultimately in Personage of Jesus Christ..Who was God in Flesh.
adamdimora 4 months ago
@adamdimora Well, I wasn't asking a question, but your response raises a very interesting one. Bearing in mind your response, how can you state that what you're talking about is something infinite, since you admit you have no way of ascertaining it? How can you discern the revelation of the infinite from the manifestations of the finite, when you admit to it being impossible. Ultimately, the best you can do is guess and hope.
Cafeeine 4 months ago
Concerning your question of where an atheist draws conclusions from, for me, it's faith in my physical senses, my brain functions and my memory, noting the fallibility of each. That's certainly nothing to worship, but that's all I gots!
You need to rethink your wording of "scientific fact". Beyond the Big Bang Event Horizon, it's all hypothesis. The 2nd Law of Thermo. does not account for many processes in this universe which can recapture unusable energy. Creation is not a scientific fact.
robtbo 4 months ago
@robtbo But I do agree that it seems such a statement makes one incapable of understanding an alternate view and incapable of making a proper personal estimate of such a view.
robtbo 4 months ago
1.Where does scripture ask you to ignore my intellect?
2.She made the statement that intellectually she couldn't conceive a God, not would she want to..That is a very Shallow statement. Simply use your mind and you can Intellectually conceive the existent of a God and in turn the Implications!!! And its the Implications that are responsible for laying the groundwork on and debate...I was simply connecting the simple fact that its very easy to intellectually envision a God believer or not.
adamdimora 4 months ago
@adamdimora "1.Where does scripture ask you to ignore my intellect?"
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;"
About your comments on morality, "mere animal instincts" is actually why we have morality. Animals abide by rules, can love each other, can display altruism. We just do that on a more complex level.
And Paul's verse just seems like a Christian opposite of what Fact vs Religion was saying.
DarkEmergence 4 months ago
@DarkEmergence
That verse never says throw out your brains, and stop using your intellect...Look its a fact that there a just some things we as humans cant understand in the natural realm..how much more in the supernatural...God is saying "Trust Me" even when some thing you cant fully "Grasp"...Read the rest of the scripture in context.
If God exists he is a "SUPER MIND" and we are created in his likeness.. this is why we have some God Like abilities..the ability to Create for example..
adamdimora 4 months ago
@adamdimora That verse and others makes it clear that we're suppose to put faith in a god over our own intellect. And if God (or rather the person who speaks to him) says something that goes against our intellect, to forget our own thoughts.
There's actually natural explanations for why we create. In fact, most human behavior can be better understood by studying other mammals, not relying on revelation.
DarkEmergence 4 months ago
How did you link "not being able to imagine a god existing" to "there are smart atheists and smart theists" what is the link ........?????
"Either there is a god or there isn't" exactly , what is the answer?
There is very little point in you using scripture because your scripture tells you to ignore your intelligence.
LogicalStatements1 4 months ago
And another:
"How could you say that I'm wrong should I choose to harm you?"
Well, because I really don't want you to hurt me (because being hurt would reduce my ability to function and could emotionally upset me also).
MythicalManMoth 4 months ago
@MythicalManMoth
Understood.. But for the individual who want to harm others....Who cares what "you" feel am I obligated to care about anything?
adamdimora 4 months ago
@adamdimora You don't have to care what other people care about. Some people don't.
I think V.S. Ramachandran has done some interesting research on why we tend to care about others.
He has a hypothesis(?) about mirror neurons in our brains that mirror situations. So for example if someone gets stabbed in the hand we feel bad because our brain calculates (not consciously perhaps) what it would feel like if we get stabbed in the hand. It explains empathy.
MythicalManMoth 4 months ago
Sorry I'm not going to watch the whole video it's a bit long.
I can try to answer one of the questions you wrote:
"how would you explain moral law"
Moral law is subjective and has changed over time. There is no objective moral law.
The things that influence what we consider moral are many. Society has a large impact on what we consider moral - that's why different countries/locations have different morals.
MythicalManMoth 4 months ago