Martin Amis Christopher Hitchens a conversation about Antisemitism and Saul bellow Part 8

[firemarshall007]

I never knew Christopher Hitchens' mother was of Jewish origin.

[Surells]

I love how you an constantly hear them lighting up

[ghostofxmaspast]

1:21 - The manner in which the lady asked the question really made me laugh. I think it was a rather good question, considering how I've witnessed Jews who have criticized Israel being labeled antisemitic & self-hating.

[alienmoonbase]

The automobile...Invented by Jews? Hell no. Karl Benz

The Airplane? Hahahahah. never

the credit default swap? YES GOOD JOB JEWS.

"Penis envy" theory? the idea that women's psychological problems are caused by a lack of a penis.....JEWISH IDEA.

My point is that we are human first. Your loyalties to the jewish group is a serious character flaw and works against the common good.

[socratic1968]

"jews hold themselves to a higher standard"

HAHAHAHAHHHHHHAA!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently Goldman Sachs didn't get the memo.

[alienmoonbase]

Why do you people think that somehow its a form of intelligence to get away with stealing from people?

BTW, not every scientist was a jew. Jung trumped the moron Freud, Heisenberg trumped Einstein, Darwin gave us more that YOU ever will. Joseph Campbell? Jew? sorry, he was an evil Irish gentile not interested in stealing like you fucks. (Campbell for the record was probably the greatest mind of the 20th century and guess what? He was called an anti-semite. So, I guess i'm in good company.

[Chaos876]

Yes, but compare the number of great people who contributed to the world in some way who are also Jewish, to the sum number of Jews in the world. Surely, this is unusual.

And a side note, if a scientist is "trumped", it's not to say that that scientist was useless, on the contrary - that scientist paved the way. Science progresses through elimination, it's not a video game. =.=

[alienmoonbase]

WRONG

The greatest mind is physics was HEISENBERG. NOT a jew. He dropped Einstein bigtime when the tour got to the hills.

The GREATEST mind PERIOD in of the 20th century was Joseph Campbell ....NOT A JEW

The greatest psuchologist...Carl Jung...NOT A JEW

The greatest BIOLOGIST was CHARLES DARWIN NOT A JEW.

The Greatest mathemetician NEWTON....NOT a jew.

The greatest THIEVES and communist mass murderers ..........uhhhh Yes, Jews.

[Chaos876]

Did you even read what I said? Try again. =.=

[adamredwine]

You obviously don't know shit about physics. Why don't you learn something about the subject on which you spew your vile hatred.

[adamredwine]

Hahahaha... I just looked at your YouTube account. You believe in alien conspiracy.

What a dumbass. Better watchout, they might want to give you a rectal exam!

[alienmoonbase]

adam-

The greatest ufologist is of Jewish ancestry. His name is Stanton Friedman. I admire him greatly.

I've watched him and listed to interview after interview. and i have NEVER ONCE heard him mention, or push JEWISH accomplishment.

Stanton Friedman seems to put his humanity FIRST and his Jewish Tribalism a distant second, if anywhere at all.

[adamredwine]

Your saying that humanity comes first is the one thing that I agree with you on. If a person's identity, religious, cultural, or political, comes before their humanity, that is a bad thing. We agree on that.

However, I don't think, as you apparently do, that Judaism or Jewish culture played any part in the scams or behavior of the crooks you are mentioning.

[alienmoonbase]

There is a general motif that is found in the old testament which is expressed amongst the Jewish upper class located primarily on the west coast of the united states of america.

It is, specifically, this: Moses lead the Israelis out of Egypt to a promised land. The promised land was occupied. Primarily by the Canaanites. They were murdered including babies so that Jews could have land.

Those who prayed to the mother goddess to bring food were annihilated by those who prayed to Jehovah.

[alienmoonbase]

Oops, the Jewish upper class is located on the EAST coast of the US not the lovely and wonderful West coast, which is where I reside.

[adamredwine]

Uh, you do realize that many of the founders of Hollywood were Jewish right?

[alienmoonbase]

Yes I understand that.

My point it, there is an egalitarian mentality on the West coast (The West Coast is the Best Coast, they say)

The east coast is older and more class oriented. I hope that the east coast class structure never materializes out here.

Jewish people have been a big part of the East Coast "class" formation. Its quite sad really, but that's human nature I guess.

[adamredwine]

I think you are drastically overstating the social context of the two communities, but at least you are starting to be reasonable.

[alienmoonbase]

adam-

What if Christian intellectuals met to pat each other on the back about christian achivement which dwarfs jewish contributino to civilization btw.

I would be first to show up on their youtube videos to post how their tribalism works against the common good.

If you see yourself as "Jewish" you are an idiot. If you see yourself as "christian" you're an idiot. Muslim? You're an idiot.

Labels stamped at birth, our inherited religion, becomes our final barrier to shed.

[adamredwine]

Are you serious? Do you think they don't? How ridiculous. I grew up in a Christian family, they do that every week and most weekdays while watching the news.

That being said, I'm not sure why you think that necessarily "works against the common good."

Of course I'm not Jewish. Nor am I Christian or Muslim. I'm an atheist as I've said before. Even still, it wouldn't make me an idiot if I were one. I have many religious friends and family. They are not all idiots.

[adamredwine]

Yup, that's just one example of many of horrible religious myths. Christians aren't without their terrible tales either. Come to think of it, Christians share all of the Jewish tales, the just tack on some more ridiculousness.

[alienmoonbase]

My point is, the bible states over and over and over again that there are two sets of rules for humanity. One for "Gentiles" is different.

Slaves are treated differently, money is loaned differently., etc. etc.

Its basically a form of tribalism at the expense of those who are NOT in the club/tribe.

Jewish advantage:

1. Social networking

2. Placebo effect

3. Built in "Socratic Method". When asked "why do you answer questions with another question, the Rabi replied, "Is there a better way?"

[alienmoonbase]

How can you take credit for Jewish contributions to science but IGNORE Jewish Usury and the contribution to the destruction of the world's economy?

Bernie Madoff? what are your excuses?

Goldman Sachs? What common good?

Larry Summers? Greenberg and AIG's "financial products" division?

Alan Greenspan? RIdes the bubble to the top then goes to work PROFITING on the back side of the bubble for a muslim money machine?

Yes, Jews are soooooo great for society.

[zhidd]

I find it fascinating when people who clearly come across this kind of thing when searching for "antisemitism" actually stick to it and listen. maybe there is hope. well, probably not for alienmoonbase, but still...

[alienmoonbase]

zhidd, Why am I an antisemite for questioning the fact there are GOLDMAN AND SACHS GOONS at the highest levels of government. I am amazes how people like you refuse to respond to the behavior of your fellow Jews. Actually, I will give you a chance. Madoff? Bosky? Greenspan? Milken? Larry Summers? (samuelson) Levin? Levitt? How in your word is it OK to steal from the public?

[zhidd]

refuse to respond to the behaviour of my fellow Jews? I'm not Jewish. And I refuse to - henceforth - respond to your ludicrous accusations. They are so one-sided I am finding myself bored out of my wits trying to get through it all...

[adamredwine]

Again, no Christians on Wall Street huh? Ever heard of a little thing called selection bias?

[alienmoonbase]

Apparently we should be mindless victims of these fucks and offer our necks willingly so "gentile" Christians can be laughed at while their throats are cut for Jewish greed

[Gozillacia]

Well - I sat through the whole icky business, Hitch is a great turn and Amis is a great writer but... The one thing that rings in my head though, is the statement , "The Jews hold themselves to a higher standard." If this were true there would be no Israel. Also, I guess this was recorded before recent events in Gaza; the 100 to 1 killing ratio, and pointing out that people were being used as human shields, then for firing on them.

[stanzemanek]

"If this were true, there would be no Israel." As unfortunate as your ill-founded conviction is, at least you were honest enough to express your true feelings.

Unlike most so-called "liberals" that denounce Israel (and through them, the US) at every opportunity, yet fall silent when anti-Semitic violence flourishes in their own Western countries.

As much as *I* separate the actions of Israel's Government from all Jewish people around the world, some bigots (you) just can not...

[Gozillacia]

Sorry to disappoint you but there is little anti-Semitic violence in the West for you to get "hot" about. The Jews time as ultimate victim has passed. You have no reason to say I do not distinguish between Israel and Jewry. I was referring to a quote by Martin Amis. While I sincerely believe Israel is an illegitimate state and a stolen land, and the Israelis on mass should beg forgiveness from the Palestinians they have wronged - I think Jews are arguable the greatest of the worlds people.

[stanzemanek]

I must beg to differ.

Anti-Semitic violence is now widespread in Russia & there are reports of incidents throughout Europe (either from skinheads or Muslims).

Amis was talking about the Jewish culture as a whole, while you were the one who made the connection to the state of Isreal.

Despite thousands of years of Jewish history in the land formally known as Palestine, the land was stolen in 1948. Yet, isn't just about EVERY country on Earth? Don't blame "the Jews," blame the UK and UN...

[Gozillacia]

Anti-semitism is on a par with gay-bashing and paki-bashing - let us agree that it is vile and the people who perpetrate it are the dregs of humanity, but it's not really that common - though too common to be called rare- alas. Also, I admire you honesty, the land was stolen, now if only more Jews like yourself can own up to this, maybe there is some hope for that god-forsaken land. I see a one state solution - A peaceful democratic Palestine with human rights for both its peoples.

[stanzemanek]

Thanks for the compliment, but I am not of Jewish heritage.

Yes, I've never denied the land that Israel occupies is in fact stolen. Yet, if you live in the Constituent country of England, there is evidence that you are benefiting from stolen land. I live in Australia where the whole country was stolen from indigenous populations in 1788 - thanks to the English (& we celebrate it every year).

Over 1 million Palestinians do live in a peaceful & democratic country. It's called Isreal! :)

[Gozillacia]

"Constituent country of England" ? Do you mean, Britain? England is one part of Britain. England has been one country for millennia.

If your point is, "might is right", then we have not progress beyond Hitler and Stalin - and you are a fascist, and blackest of all ironies, Israel is a state maintained on that fascist principle. In my opinion, might is not right, you probably are a fascist (thought more third rate than reich ) And sadly Israel is maintained on that fascist principle.

[stanzemanek]

I'm a fascist now? I thought we were friends.

My point wasn't "might is right." I'm simply attempting to get some consistency from your arguments, because as it looks to me, sheer passage of time gives every other country legitimacy in your eyes, but not Israel because she was created last century. If seeing every countries blood-soaked inception makes me a fascist, then so be it!

Yes, England is a Constituent country of the UK. Welsh nationalists lay claim to being the real Britons...

[Gozillacia]

of course we are not friends - what gave you that idea?

I am not going to get bogged down in a boring unending discussion on relativism - so yes, the passage of time does legitimize a country. Enough time, that is, to render the facts obscure, there is nothing obscure about the conquest and occupation of Palestine, some 60 years ago.

And I don't think you are a Fascist - and you'll note, I called you it in lower case, indicating I think, wilting rather than will to power.

[stanzemanek]

Just joking about the friends thing.

Again, thanks for your admission of cognitive bias concerning Israel.

The problem we have is your deep revulsion towards the state of Israel blinds you to what a fascist state truly is, & devalues the word even further. Just like your mates that get on the street shouting "genocide," & the extremely offensive favourite of theirs, "another Holocaust" for every death in Gaza.

If Israel is so illegitimate, why don't you hold them to Hamas's standards?

[Gozillacia]

Hey - I know when someone is reaching out -don't worry, I'm it'll happen some day.

I do feel a deep revulsion towards the state of Israel, more so than I did towards South Africa when it was under apartheid. The Wests unconditional support of Israel poisons any claim we might have to the moral high ground when we deal with Islamo-fascists, plain old fascists and all the dictators and other gangsters that plague us. It is also poisoning the Jewish people - and is Hamas's best friend.

[stanzemanek]

My only hope for peace lays with the West Bank under the moderate Fatah party.

You must remember Israel is a democracy & their constituents are demanding action on the rocket fire coming from Gaza. Wouldn't any *normal* country?

Sorry to dwell on the same point, but you're drawing the line at Israel again. The West (particularly the US) has no moral high ground in international affairs. All we've done is prop up tyrannical (undemocratic) regimes from South America to the Middle East...

[Gozillacia]

There is one strange and awe inspiring aspect of the Israeli conquest and occupation of Palestine, and that is the dignity, calm and general absence of extremism in the Palestinian people, it gives one hope for the human race so, I agree, if there is hope it lays with this noble people. The recent Israeli atrocities in Gaza, are, I think, an attempt to promote extremism and undermine moderation and the moderate I think the fireworks thrown over the border were only a pretext.

[stanzemanek]

Yes, I kinda agree with what you said. Even considering the majority vote that the Palestinian people gave a murderous group of thugs in 2006 (Hamas), I also separate the selfish actions of Hamas from the wider community.

Although, there is no chance for peace in Gaza as long as we have Hamas & their blood-thirsty charter in office competing with a likely Benjamin Netanyahu led Likud government & their equally extreme views. Very sad.

Thanks for the engaging debate over the last week...

[alienmoonbase]

What if virtually every person who destroyed the world economy was Gay? Would you call it Gay Bashing if somebody asked, "Why are most of these wall street thieves Gay?" Bernie Madoff? Ivan Boskey Michael Milken? Fuld of Lehman Greenberg of AIG? Rubin, Greenspan and Summers BLOCKING DERIVATIVE REGULATION IN 1998? all jews my sympathetic friend I'm not a christian, but jesus was right 2000 yrs ago and I'm right today making this point. Jewish greed is as real and your crushed 401k

[Gozillacia]

Alamoonface - Yes, if virtually everyone who destroyed (?) the world economy was Jewish that would be true, but it's not, because there just aren't enough Jews to fill all the banks and financial institutions involved - so actually the vast majority of the financial community must therefore not be Jewish.

However, for historical reasons - they were pushed into banking by medieval Christians because usury was against God - Jew now have a foot hold in the world banking system - good for them.

[alienmoonbase]

WTF? "good for them" ?!@

I mentioned the LEADERS of these rip-off companies. Not the "financial community" followers

The leaders of virtually EVERY company that has been fleecing the middle class are JEWISH.

"good for them." ?!

seriously?!

Good for Fuld? Good for Hank Greenberg of AIG? He created their financials division!

Jewish greed is real, and cost us 50 trillion.

You are right that the culture is based in old testament teachings.

[Gozillacia]

Moonface - yes good for them, the rich and the successful who ever they are. If they have broken any laws, I wish the full weight of the system down on their heads - but I restate the financial system is not Jewish - and the Jews in high positions, how do you think they got there - black magic? No, - by talent. Success is open to everyone. But on the general point - if you are looking for greed - look from top to bottom, every little punter who punts is motivated by what - altuism? No - greed.

[alienmoonbase]

Gozamusil,

The difference is the scale of the greed and the socially destructive tendencies of the Jewish culture. Do you seriously think that the National Socialist movement of Germany happened in a vacuum?

We have a systemic problem of Jewish influence that is disproportional for the percentage of the general population.

You seem to equate wealth and success.

Is a wall street thief who hides his theft more noble that a school teacher?

[alienmoonbase]

Not everyone is motivated by greed. Speak for yourself.

The basic fact remains that Jews are at the center of the financial collapse right now.

If you think its OK to legally steal from people ....by that I mean violate a fiduciary obligation (not very easy to prove a crime here) then I pity your materialistic existence. I suggest you read Jung and not Freud.

[Gozillacia]

MoonOfAlabama - I think you can probably detect from my general level of tetchiness in response - I find the subject of finance very boring. Give to Caesar - as it were, and let Caesar sort it out. And if it floats your boat - carry on believing it is the, JUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUZE what, wont be blamed for nothin' - but the whole subject bores me - so bye bye.

[alienmoonbase]

Gozfecal-

The current economic crisis was born and brewed right here in the US of A.

Who were the people at the center of the mess and what is their motivation for stealing at a scale never before seen by human beings.

There is a Jewish community but its mostly a business fraternity that steals from Gentiles (anyone who isn't Jewish)

[Gozillacia]

it's the JUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUZE the JUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUZZZZZZZZZZZE!­

[nzmft85]

if the gentiles are dumb enough to be outsmarted over and over again, good luck to the jews and bad luck to the middle class/gentiles.

[alienmoonbase]

funny, that's what the german jews thought too.

[danny123xvz]

"we have goys to do that" knobs

[richardcadbury]

They aren't knobs, they're both brilliant. But that was a very knobbish statement.

[danny123xvz]

i know :)

[scotty123123]

You seem to be lacking entirely any  irony or humour.