Civilization Is The Art Of Being Civil..There Is Nothin Civil About Aggression..If You Pounce On Someone For Their Land,Labor,Resource's Etc..You Have Not Created A Civilization,But All Out Warfare!!
To answer your question with a question, how do you define civilization?
If we define "civilization" in the same way as we use the moniker "the civilized world" then I would tend to agree with your assertion. However, this is not how I choose to define civilization, as the meaning of it is defined primarily by those viewing it.
@theevilgood Were Native Americans any less of a civilization than the Europeans who invaded their land? No. They were simply a different type of civilization; one that held different values than those Europeans. To take it further, the civilizations can be classified even further down into smaller civilizations called "tribes."
I think you have valid points, but I also think civilization is just as natural and necessary to humans as it is to ants. We do it to survive; in a world with no order, the human lifespan is much less. The ultimate truth is that what we deem to be corrosive to human life turns out to be essential to its continuance.
@proteanview, I agree with your description of today civilization and I suggest that we should get rid of that civilization that brought your ancestors into slavery in America, and I do not mean the whites like you were brainwashed to believe. What do you think?
proteanview have you ever seen or read Fight Club. all these ideas u state can be found in it. literly everything u just said is in fight club. read it or check it out brotha
I personally think that the advances of science allowing us to live longer, have given us more opportunities to make our own decisions in life. Without civilization humans were bound more by the conditions that you mentioned involving women raising children at home and men hunting all of the time. I doubt that you or I would have fared well in a world where all we could do is hunt.
well actualy initialy civilization shortened life expectancy, second women hunted in hunter gatherer societies, third people still lived to about 80 years if they made it past child birth and the first four years of life. don't quote me on that one I didnt read it on a snapple
Regardless of initial effects of civilization, the overall effect has been lengthened life expectancy, in the western world at least. There is a definite segregation of tasks in many cultures between men and women. My main point is that people did not have as many choices of what to do with their lives.
@scythiconatron that may be true but if we didnt know about those choices we wouldn't miss them. the other thing is that depression rates would be lower because of various psychological factors like time fullfilment and close knit community. however I couldnt personaly live as a hunter gatherer so I see yer point
You forgot about the upsides to civilization, like education, public safety, sanitation, and technology. Surely the level of technology we now enjoy would be impossible if there was no civilization to allow us nerds to stop having to fight for our stuff and invent things.
I agree with you, but the reality of the situation is that civilizations are more organized. If I'm off on my own land living the hunter/gatherer life and then civilization creeps up on me with their money and their armies, what am I going to do? Get owned. That's what. So much for my way of life.
Civilization isn't always spread by violent invasions, sometimes its spread by killing off indiginious people through plagueworld diseases. When i think of civilization i think of a sharp division of labor. Civilization also gives me a chance to leave a lasting legacie that isn't an offspring, and because of that i am very greatfull.
Doing yoga,exercising,eating food that is not processed, & that is whole,finding organic self expression that gratifies our natural needs for expression & creativity, basically being homo sapiens minus the contrivances & artificial repression & conditioning that has been passed down from modern times.I believe we should be as close to our primal identities while still maintaining a healthy degree of organization, & structure as horizontal & as flexible for the needs of people as possible..
I agree civilization has done a lot of these things
I think hunter Gatherer societies have there share of problems as well, Ithink they can be happier or less happy depending on the person and their circumstance.I think the entire human race is in a dilemma that comes with existence..though I believe there are ways we can lessen the suffering and solve many problems. One thing that would help "civilized" people would be to stay close to their natural, organic state...(cont.)
Civilization: medicine, art, music, science, knowledge. Ability to fix those ills that you've listed. Without civilization people used to die from the treatable diseases.
You do bring up valid points, but it's not the problem with civilization, but rather with the way society functions.
Thats what he is saying, the way or style a society functions is what we call a particular type of civilization, Islamic or secular! Medicines are good no one saying thats wrong but there is something fundamentally wrong in us when civilization is spread through war!?
Agreed, that is a bad thing. But give me an example today where a civilization is spread through war? Iraq and Afghanistan do not count: a) they are not about spreading the civilization
b) the do not follow the pattern that the gentleman describes of the newcomers taxing the indigenous population.
I am talking, in particular, about the spread of secular civilization.
rodinalex..all religions would have remained as small cults if not for the kings who used them as an instrument of power to gain loyalty from their people. If the king and the people are of the same religion its easier to get loyalty and control. Right from the Roam times the Romans invaded other tribal countries in the excuse to spread civilization. I hope your not arguing particularly when the evidence is so, this is not my wish,thats how it is in reality.
Right, I'm not disputing the historical facts that the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Spaniards, etc, used their culture as a banner to subjugate people. This is obviously true.
What I'm saying is that today secular countries do not do it and it is secular countries that are at the forefront of scientific and cultural developments.
In addition,I disagree with the author's idea about schools and building stuff ourselves. Historically, we have always had professionals, artisans, if you wish
It just seems that the author says that schools get between parents and children and parents should teach their kids how to build and grow and we should do it all ourselves and not rely on others. However, this would bring development to a halt if everyone was training to grow food. Our technology allows a small % of population to provide food for everyone. I'm a theoretical physicist, I don't have time to build my chair, that's why we specialize.
Romans did farless,thy only attacked tribes in europe and subjugated their land but the christians and muslims subjugated mankind mentally and physically, through war and allurement which again causes war when ppl take sides,instead of being individuals.
Historically,we have always had professionals and historically we have also been killing each other.Then historical does not mean a thing,it only means we hv not questioned it for generations.We hv been born into ideas we seldom question.
The speaker says Civilization has sold us the idea that a tribal life style is miserable but even when in civilized society we only live less happier than an unagitated tribal. Civilization is deeply competitive and conflict ridden structure which seeks power, even in a secular country power ends up in the hands of few who use it to tell us what our ambition are how we need to live and we are sold out to those ideas since we hv been born into them much like a muslim baby or a jew.
I think the speaker here tells it in a more refined way. I hope you can watch all the 8 parts of his speech in the United Nations..watch?v=7fzV8QH1JeE&feature=related
Are you saying that tribal life is not conflict ridden? 20-40% of males in tribal societies died in armed conflicts with neighboring groups (quoting Dr. Andy Thomson's figures). There is not such thing as a "noble savage". Civilization actually reduced the death rate in armed conflicts. We are not talking about religion, we are talking about the notion of civilization. There are always corrupt people, but a social structure allows us to depose such leaders and evolve our civilization.
Again you make it sound like i should take sides! Tribals may die in conflict but depends on where they are from and what influences they had, may be they had influences from the modern world. The Piraha tribe did convert an christian missionary to atheism and when u link the word savage with tribe i can understand you didnt get the point.
To say Civilisation reduced the death rate is realy taking a point and twisting it totally out of proportions to suit someones needs.
The speaker specifically says that we have to stop relying on others for goods and such. This means that he would have to build his own computer. As to diseases caused by pollution:
1st, we are trying to work things out even with government bureaucrats getting in the way.
2nd, this pollution still claims less lives than smallpox.
You can't discard civilization just because some things in the current social structures are less than perfect. We have to work to make it better and not just give up:)
When i said speaker i also meant j.krishnamurti in the united nations. Did you watch the video? Watch that and then make up you mind on what i am saying. I dont want to turn this into an 'me vs you' power ride. You need to get what i am saying in the first place. You need to get the fundamentals of human nature thats your own nature that breeds conflict. Tribalism is not an anti dote but the way civilization brands ppl as savages is hypocrisy when we r conflict ridden in our own daily life.
Hey! I watched the presentation until the Q&A. He does have many valid points, but that's not what my argument was about.
I was arguing against proteanview's view of schools and trade specialization. Also, he talks about how we want to go to the moon more than we want to feed people. Well, those aren't mutually exclusive. If we stop bombing nations, we'll have money for both.
Now, I don't think that you can deny the fact that some societal structures are superior to others.
E.g.: Free health care is superior to no health care, fair trials are superior to beheading, etc.
To me it seems like proteanview is arguing for the reversal to the nature. I might be wrong, but he seems to be romanticizing the conditions of the pre-literate societies where everyone built homes and harvested food. "Concrete over nature" argument--yes, I love nature and yes, I want to reduce the amount of pollution and get more trees. But, we do need roads for our infrastructure.
What comes to mind on the subject of just civilization or modern civilization? Modern civilization to me, is an entire planet depending on industry to oversee their welfare in regards to an easy life with no self obligation to look after your own welfare. Basic civilization, to me, is a gathering of people who
shall be overseen by another civilization who shall mistreat you and drive you toward extinction. So which were you referring to ?
Great video! Why should you pay to live on the planet you were born on... Freewill, Freedom or monetary enslavement... Master your emotions live from your heart and take responsibility
1) money addiction (single most effective dopamine trigger!!)
[Olds J, Milner P. (1954). "Positive reinforcement produced by electrical stimulation of septal area and other regions of rat brain". J Comp Physiol Psychol 47 (6): 41927.]
2) under diagnosed, tolerated and in Western Nihilizations hugely honored antisocial personality disorder (ICD-10 / 3-6% male pop.), which destroys reciprocal altruism.
hmm...the book i'm reading right now, Deschooling Society, seems very relevant to this video.
anyway, a lot of the pro-society arguments are really just taking credit for half-solving problems it itself created. exactly like stock brokers do (they are the real leaches of society).
I agree! I would rather build my own home, grow my own food, work for myself, etc. These are skills that people should have but people are more concerned with a " name" and image or I guess how they are perceived by others in society. Most people don't understand what life is REALLY about. Let people live the way they want to.If that is what they want out of life then that is their business. We cannot fix what some people will never understand.
If the alternative to civilization was to simply live as hunter-gatherers, the earth could only support at most a few million people. Where would the other 6 billion live? So individuals, then, must sacrifice their wants & needs for the community if we are to live at high densities. We are committed to civilization, like it or not. That said, how can we consciously control the conditions of civilization to ensure they're humane?
Ha! I KNEW you'd come back & say you don't believe in vaccines! LOL!
And just so you know, that is FRIENDLY laughter. My daughter is in a Waldorf school, where half the kids are unvaccinated. In fact, we ourselves didn't vaccinate when she was little & it turned out very well b/c we have since discovered she is allergic to several ingredients in some of the vaccines & cannot have them.
Believe me, I am very, very familiar with the vaccine debate. I see them as a double-edged sword...
Your message sounds like an Anarchist discussion, now you are speaking my language. Personally I think the more we can do for each other without involvement from government and big corporations the better we will be. Esentially It is up to us wether we choose to live in or outside of mainstream society.
I'm sorry to hear you defining something so dear to my heart so disparagingly. I would never do the same concerning the communities you are interested in.
Some people need the variety, urbanity, progress and stimulation afforded by what most people think of as "civilization." If you don't, fine. Go find your bliss. But honesty should move you to be grateful for the vaccines & other perks of civilization that will buffer you against the threats nature used to pose to human survival.
spot on my friend ~ this is becoming mass consciousness now. We will see the positive changes~combined with a collapse of the old outdated ways of doing things
While listening to you pontificate about the evils of civilization, you look awfully cozy in your warm condo,with your recessed electric lighting system.(LOL)
@proteanview Right on! Companies come to my mind. Dictators are dictators, whether they be religious, political, or even commercial. If they are true dictators, having control over one pretty much grants you the control over the others as well. Chrisitanity benefited from global colonization of the world. Hence missionaries are now entering Iraq and "educating" the locals about their religion, as the government teaches them about "civilization" and Wal mart "teaches" them about consumerism.
I see humanity continuing in the direction of a 'Brave New World' type paradigm-- where all traditional value systems are abandoned and individual self-gratification is paramount to all else. Any sense of human purpose will revolve solely around the never-ending pursuit of pleasure and entertainment.
Of course, unequivocal obedience to political authority will be a prerequisite for this indulgent lifestyle since "big brother" blesses the individual with such comfortable luxuries!
Mmmm... I dunno... Civilisation can just be a sprawling city. That city could start with a single building hundreds of years ago; to say it starts with bloodshed isnt kinda right. Thats not true all the time. Taxes are there to protect people in most cases - even ones own family and ones own self. Healthcare. Services. Etc, etc.
... And basically, I heard no solution to the quote-unquote; 'problem'.
The very word Civilization in English is derived from the Latin word Civilis meaning "polite". Most of the assumptions informing European nations about what constitutes civilization come from the tainted head of the Romans. Rome was a proudly fascist society which specialized in genocide, technology theft, and slavery on an unprecedented scale. The model is a bad one, there is nothing admirable about ancient Rome, the "barbarians" brought down a monster.
The Germans killed lots of Jews, Gays and other minorities. That doesnt mean that their system is out of whack. Its cruel to say, but all Nazi's did in a lot of cases was follow sciences teachings. The only problem was, they took it to a dark, dark place, rather than learn from it. You forget that most water and pools were contaminated with the prized metal of the time, Lead, and thus, even the Caesars were nutcases. Behaviour is no basis for if a system works?
Lead poisoning doesn't make people crazy, you are thinking of mercury. Lead may cause memory loss and some speech development difficulties in kids, but not much in the way of mental impairment.
I think you are offering a "might makes right" argument, popular amongst Romans and other later fascist societies. While it is true that militarism has been common, it is seldom either stable or particularly effective. It is essentially a narcissistic bully culture model.
Many swimming pools and other bodies of water, even containers where alcohol was fermented, have been found to contain large amounts of lead in many many cases. There was even a few documentaries of this on television.
The more lead you ingest, the worse the mental problems. LOOK at the Caesars. Many were absolutely mental in many cases, and this gives a logical arguement or possible excuse.
I strongly urge you to look at the effects of lead poisoning. This doesn't tally, it doesn't make a person psychopathic, it can impair mental function but generally it promotes memory loss, flagging concentration, headaches, depression, but no actual violence. Which emperors are examples you would like to refer to ? I am quite familiar with them.
I dont think you can honestly dispute the possibility for lead poisoning. Then again, neither can I prove it - but it certainly tallies to me. Constant poisoning over time does indeed cause behavioural problems. Have a look at the majority of the caesars and tell me there wasnt a behavioural problem somewhere.
There were also historical references where larger families were given, how shall I put it, 'an improvement on their lives'. Because many in the hierarchies were failing at families.
I make a reference to the fact of larger families beginning to fail, because that was part of historical fact. Many, many children were born weak and didnt survive. It was difficult to produce children.
Oh, and lead poisoning also causes male reproductive problems. Sha-wing.
Another reason why it tallies for me.
S'all I'm saying. We can't honestly disprove it, but for me, theres a LOT of facts there for the support of the possibility.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that despite the way Rome acted - culturally - that is, slavery was okay at the time, so were many other forms of behaviour. It is only nowadays that its unacceptable. Centuries ago, noone even blinked at it.
Their cultures behaviour, in my opinion, does not take away from the good points of their overall society. Lets say sewers were built by slaves, yes - but those very sewers protected the health of ALL Rome; even the slaves themselves, in the end.
There is a good argument that in their reliance on slavery that Rome sowed the seeds of their own destruction. By having so many slaves, they reduced the value of the plebeians as labor and devalued the military as a career. When the catastrophe of the 3rd Century set in, the Roman administration began enslaving any free person who couldn't pay their taxes, and slaves couldn't enter the military. Many free people became new slaves and ultimately serfs in the emergent feudalism.
Theres a large, myriad amount of reasons why Rome collapsed. Yours may be one thing in that direction, and I wont dispute that, but I dont think it was the one single cause, obviously. I dont even think it was the primary cause. I think there was just a lot of different problems coming from every direction.
At least if we look at it, hopefully we will not repeat it. Or at least, most of the mistakes, in any case.
No argument, it was just one of the many causes of instability. I actually think that Constantine the Great's reforms to the military were the real reason for Rome's collapse.
No, I think that many Emperors were very intelligent. There were some very mediocre rulers and a few prize nutcases, but I can name only 4 real "doozies", Caligula , Nero, Commodus and Elagabalus. Not a bad run for 400+ Years.
Nero and Caligula ? Really ? I think Elagabalus is much funnier. Commodus liked to fight in the Gladiatorial arena and wanted to rename Rome after himself... "Commode" ? LOL. Elagabalus was a very naughty Syrian kid who basically ran amok with money, silly religion, sex and pranks for 2 years until the Praetorians murdered him hiding in the loo. The details are very funny, if you like that sort of thing, look into these two.
@ 0:56 : You do realize that not all anarchists are anarcho-capitalists, right? It might appear that way as the majority of the youtube anti-statists seem to be of that persuasion, but in the world at large it is not the case.
I agree with you to a degree,reminds me of "The Village". I've often wanted to go build a cabin in the woods and live off the land, away from the coruption of current society. However, I do not have the knowledge that a teacher who went to school to teach does, so my children would not get the best education they could, I do not know of medicine and disease, so I would be suseptable to premature death as well as my family, if a "medicine man" was not available. The simple life is centuries dead.
An ex-boyfriend of mine has been struggling for years to become "self-sufficient" on his little organic farm. He's smart, frugal, committed and highly competent. Yet he has found true self-sufficiency out of reach and he is driving trucks & buses on the side to pay the bills.
Even if he were to make it, though, he would still depend on the civilization around him to meet many of his needs and protect his land ownership.
While most of what he is saying is true you also have to look at the benefits that a civilisation gives us, such as medicens to have a better EASIER life style.
Well, thats a great argument to not go to college if you can't afford it.
As to the final scenario, it might be best not to tell the person. One reason you have drunks survive accidents is that they are loose, and they go with the impact.
Basically you injure yourself more if you brace yourself, but if you compleately loose, and just go with the blast you can survive better.
Of course, one does not need stretch your idea too far to see the parrallells with Iraq and the current war there. It seems, to me, to be an example of the very thought you present here....and that is just another example of US imperialism.
What came to my mind as I watched this was, all the missionaries, throughout history, who decimated entire cultures in the name of civilization - in the name of their god. Never mind these cultures had values and morals of their own, the conquorers values were thrust upon them. It happened here with the native Indians, in SouthAmerica with their native cultures, and still is happening in remote parts of the worl. That seems to be the goal, to break down their culture, so that we may insert ours.
to tinnmanna You can't free yourself from having to pay property taxes by freeing your mind. As long as you must pay to live you are not free. That's just that phony "positive energy" psycho babble. Sounds good but it isn't true.
When I think of civilization, I think of many things but the first and most important is a system of laws & justice. That's what civil life really is, a collective agreement to attempt to settle disputes through disinterested 3rd parties, instead of the blood feuds typical of pre-civilized societies.
In his series Civilisation, Kenneth Clark said those who claim to admire barbarism haven't given it sufficient trial.
As an artist I'd much rather we continued to improve our civilization than give it up.
There's no way I could cultivate my creativity to the maximum if I spent all my time having and raising kids and doing all the very hard work it takes to wrest a pre-civilized living from the Earth.
Great art as well as great literature, science, music, mathematics, jurisprudence, etc requires people to specialize, which requires civilization.
i'd have to disagree...my studio is in the country that doesn't require civilization.....unless you're talking about mainstream artists....who are not really artists...just part of corporatism.
Wow. What an incredibly snobby thing to say! Who are YOU to decide someone else isn't "really" an artist?
Secondly, if you think your studio in the country, with its secure land ownership (whether yours or a landlord's) doesn't need civilization, you are living in a dream world
You know what...I don't really care if people see me as an artist or not .....If fact I prefer craftsperson better.....especially with all the"art" out there.
Does art require an audience? Perhaps yours doesn't. Others might see such an enterprise as bourgeois navel gazing. But if it's a philosophical stance that works for you, fine.
I still think your initial remark was petty, narrow-minded, mean and downright ridiculous.
Is Michelangelo not "really" an artist because the Sistine Chapel was painted the way "they" wanted it?
Apologies then if Apologies are accepted on youtube....
I guess I don't have the stomach for a "damien hearst" where only a few selected by their inner friends that determine what the public consumes....curators determine culture...not the artist at this point. I have gladly placed myself as crafts person and not an "artist"....When I sell my work and I have no problems taking pride in being a "businessman"
But in the context of the D. Hearst ..the term "artists" is elitist .
As far as I know, apologies are accepted by rational people everywhere.
I will offer one too, for using such harsh terms when gentler ones might have gotten the point across just as well.
I will not quarrel with your critique of the system. It has more than its share of flaws. But the artists participating in it are not to blame and many fine ones have emerged from it.
Eyelean, I would like to respond both here and in private message to both of your comments.
#1- Your argument is completely invalid. Civilization has lead to more murder, more warfare, more genocide, more famine, and more disease than any social organization in the history of our species.
#2 Civilization does make it possible for you to devote more time as an artist. However, this is a pleasure that is not possible for the vast majority of civilized people.
1 In your private message you mention 4 names as sources, 2 of which are pre-modern, the other two of which actually back up what I've said below in terms of the problem of blood feuds.
2 Yes, empires exacerbate human evil but didn't invented them. I'm afraid there's never been a perfect time in human history.
3 Please don't make statements about me. You don't know me. I most CERTAINLY do have more time for art than any hunter-gatherer.
4 As for the vast majority of civilized people, most of them do not wish to be artists. Yes, of course they should have the opportunity to pursue whatever calling they do have, to which I say let's keep improving our civilization. Chucking it would accomplish nothing.
Civilization begins with conquest abroad and repression at home -Stanley Diamond.
2. Blood feuds have existed among human beings. There's no doubt. However, deliberate warfare of extinction is almost unheard of by tribal societies. There is a plethora of research by anthropologists showing that many tribal societies often engaged in fighting in which it is common that little to no deaths occure.
3- What I was saying is yes, YOU have more time to be an artist. However, the vast majority
of the world's civilized population does not. They work all day and every day. Whereas the average hunter gatherer works 3.5-4 hours a day.
4. I once agreed with this argument until I realized that civilization feeds off of exploitation. We in the West benefit at the detriment of other nations. They will always be at the bottom, and we'll remain at the top. There are simply not enough resources for all of the world to live as Americans do. It's impossible.
And to add to #2, violence exists in the natural world. There is no doubt. However, the kind of violence tribal societies participated in was often simply raiding a neighbor or startling them by surprise. Yes, there are a few examples of tribalist behaving differently, but the vast majority lived this way. If you want to discuss violence, let's talk about civilization. Let's discuss the genocide against the Native Americans. Let's discuss the World Wars. Let's discuss Rwanda.
Let's discuss Kosovo. Let's discuss the millions of people enslaved around the world. Let's discus the millions of people starving. Let's discus the multitude of species disappearing from this planet.
I see no point in going backwards, especially when you consider most of the people reading this would not even have been born without civilization.
As Cahill put it, hunting/gathering is a high-wire act without a net. Many babies do not survive infancy. Many mothers do not survive childbirth and large percentages die off throughout childhood. Millions of family lines would simply not exist today.
So let's keep making a good thing better, is how I see it and I wish more folks appreciated it.
Hunter-gatherers may spend 4 hours a day procuring food, but it's not all they do, especially the mothers.
We actually agree on many things here. I share your critiques of civilization whole-heartedly. Every thing you said against it is absolutely true.
BUT it is only one side of the coin. Just as civ magnifies human evil, it also greatly magnifies our good. It is also clearly progressing in a more human direction at an accelerating rate.
Yeah, my daughter wants to join GS in the worst way but when I checked it out and saw how far down they've come from where they were, I just couldn't do it.
Sometimes I wonder if civilization is a life form of it's own. It's born, it grows, it dies. We are the cells with different roles. States, nations, etc,. are the organs. We believe there is a conspracy, an illuminati, but it's just this mind force as the composite sum of of the attitude of it's billionsof members. Civilizations get sick and can get well too. What you observed are the internal bodily processes. Some can be gross and some are beautiful.
are we enslaved to the banks and debt? yes... but honestly, you have the freedom to escape it all if you really wanted to. frankly, id rather use our monetary system than some other bartering system where i couldnt get a big mac when i wanted to, and that's my choice.
i think civilization can leave some people spinning out of balance. Like a tire on wheel, the more it rolls the weirder the wear where the rubber meats the road. Modern life is really very tough on nature and happiness. It has to do with limiting vision and activities, with a reward habit and lust. Modern constrained living can make people impaired. Because they don't learn directly from observation and analysis.
What we have here is hierarchal power formations. Of course the bottom folks will be kept down especially if they tend to be honest and not players. Players seem to have a natural leg up, but might be light on equitable or ethical behavior. First will come the threats, and then will arrive some violence or war. i guess that's how life works. The stationary culture will begin to block out a migrating culture.
Civilization is a group of people workin together to benefit everyone. By allowing people to focus on what they do best, everybody can enjoy the most of what everybody makes. Although you can never count power out of the equation. And power is attained through money. Who ever holds power denies resources to others for his own benefit. That is what power is. So if someone is put behind (poor), well it is obvious someone stole it away from them. (because you can only be poor in relation to another
i don't know where to start. i couldn't agree with you more. It is up to concerned people to voice their concerns. There is no solution without experience, without some kind of comunity action. i am grateful that I raise my kids, that i do not shuttle them off to someone else to do it, for how long that lasts. i think it is possible to have a culture that respects its individuals, but not without alot of work. But it is possible!
Specialization is the unintended consequence of technological advancement. That is how quite a few English people developed their surnames. A specialty in a particular field.
People over time have become more acute in their skill base due to the ease and affordability of consigning others to perform certain tasks.
Very few today immerse themselves into as many fields as possible. Very few examples of modern renaissance men.
Civilization encompasses more than just the technological / industrial aspect of a society. Many facets combine, such as language, the arts, theology, commerce, and philosophical instruments of law and government. For a lack of a better term, this is what is referred to as culture.
Far from advocating a luddite revival, I understand all endeavors of man has it's place. To artificially constrain any segment would be to invite unintended consequences.
spot on truth hes speaking, this kind of prison without bars that we live in only works if we let it, people really should take control of their own limited time in this life
I wouldn't want to give up the advances in science in exchange for a more simple life. I lived that simple life as a kid, and it's not that romantic. Outdoor toilet, no TV, just a radio, a coal stove in the middle of the living room, no electricity except in the butter shed, newspapers to insulate your bed in the winter. We only went to town for bullets to shoot coyotes bothering the sheep. No thanks. I prefer civilization myself.
Yeah, but I don't think that will make any difference whatsoever. Reasons being the rest of civilization will continue as normal, forming to what they already know and do. Something new and different, even what can be seen by most as a good thing and what should be the correct way - why would people change if they like what they have? You need to solve the issues with greed and fortune first (as pointed out in the video of worth) before even scratching the surface.
When I hear the word civilization, I think of it more on global terms. Meaning, the world as a whole. We as humans are civilization. We as inhabitants of this planet are civilization.
To answer your question, the "civilized" thing to do, for me, is to not tell me that truck is coming.
That's not what he is saying, there are other ways to do things. Just because what we currently have right now works for most, and is still "pushing forward" (even though it could be much faster), doesn't mean it's what is best and the solution. In order for civilization to advanced it needs to change the manner in how we do it already - forgetting the expenses for something that really works for everyone.
i'd say we waste a lot more money in a lot more ways than flying to the moon i.e. going to war, eating meat (16 lbs. of grain only produces 1 lb. of beef. think of all the people we could feed if those grains when to people-it would, by the numbers, eliminate world hunger completely).
Well then by all means Proteanveiw, go live in the jungle. Some of this, the violence and coercion, is the product of bad government, not civilization. The rest is people's personal choice. It is hypocritical to condemn civilization while still living in it. Go live in the jungle and tell your visitors how much better off you are then. The rest of us will continue to enjoy the many wonderful things cooperating as a species has given us. You won't convince us to destroy it.
Civilisation is supposed to be people woking together to form a society, nowadays society has become synthetic, and i guess thats where the problem lies.
the only thing close to a solution i can think of would be to live your life, not get wrapped up in money, be happy and help others.
I guess after thinking a few minutes I would say that the word "civilization" brings to ming a city or large town, where trade is going on. Where basic necessities of life are available, food, water, shelter and where help may be found amount the population for whatever you need might be. Where there is a structure in place for safety, like police. A good thing to find at the end of what might have been an endless desert.
The best solution is to create a world where people share the resources of the world, without the need for money. We have to come up with a way to organize such a reality or the human race is going to be destroyed. A system based on selfishness and greed can't last long.
The monetary system that we are adhering to here in the Western World is a totally corrupt system that is designed to fail. And as the system is going down, the criminal elite are buying up all of the natural resouces and technology so that the masses of people will be no more then serfs on the plantation.
I think you're making a mistake, here. Governments and thus civilizations are merely a concentration of power, and usually at least partly a community project. Power is going to be concentrated at some level, other than the individual. But whether you do it at the community or national level doesn't really matter, and the national level has big advantages for groups that have something in commong.
Protean, that's one kind of creativity civilization strips you of. But it also enables you to be creative in a gazillion ways that you wouldn't be able to otherwise, because you're not busy hunting your own food. And if you want to build your own house, you can still do that if you do it right (although perhaps your family would thank you if you let professionals do it).
Ummm...yeah, I'm gonna say no on that one. Specifically, it would depend heavily upon the environment in which said communities exist. If it's rich in food, maybe so. But in other areas, hunters may be gone for days on end before they have secured a sources of food. Plus, the hunt is often dangerous.
We go to the moon because there's enough clean fuel there to power us for centuries.
Besides, why do people NEVER criticize billions spent on MILITARY and always do criticize the 1% spent on science? Why do you all support war and killing so much?
I think of humans arguing
gabydewilde 3 weeks ago
Civilization Is The Art Of Being Civil..There Is Nothin Civil About Aggression..If You Pounce On Someone For Their Land,Labor,Resource's Etc..You Have Not Created A Civilization,But All Out Warfare!!
Mobbin4theArt 3 months ago
To answer your question with a question, how do you define civilization?
If we define "civilization" in the same way as we use the moniker "the civilized world" then I would tend to agree with your assertion. However, this is not how I choose to define civilization, as the meaning of it is defined primarily by those viewing it.
theevilgood 5 months ago
@theevilgood Were Native Americans any less of a civilization than the Europeans who invaded their land? No. They were simply a different type of civilization; one that held different values than those Europeans. To take it further, the civilizations can be classified even further down into smaller civilizations called "tribes."
theevilgood 5 months ago
The quote at 1:53 is absolutely true. I was knew college/university were cons but I never thought of it like that.
derhow 8 months ago
Civilisation - emperors, technology, art, science, collapse, power, hegemony, war, death, intelligence, prosperity.
Those are a few things that come to mind.
derhow 8 months ago
I think you have valid points, but I also think civilization is just as natural and necessary to humans as it is to ants. We do it to survive; in a world with no order, the human lifespan is much less. The ultimate truth is that what we deem to be corrosive to human life turns out to be essential to its continuance.
flashablecards 1 year ago
1:51 Best sentence I've heard all year!
asphyxiateDrake00 1 year ago
@proteanview, I agree with your description of today civilization and I suggest that we should get rid of that civilization that brought your ancestors into slavery in America, and I do not mean the whites like you were brainwashed to believe. What do you think?
truth7seeker 1 year ago
proteanview have you ever seen or read Fight Club. all these ideas u state can be found in it. literly everything u just said is in fight club. read it or check it out brotha
blinkboy341 1 year ago
@blinkboy341 I like to think of Tyler Durden as a modern day prophet. The film is probably one of the most important films of my generation.
CrazedCousinDougal 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Beautiful Video, Thank you.
Aloebunny 1 year ago
pizza delivered in under 30 minutes. society wins.
bronco2121 1 year ago 2
OK now you really are sounding like you are reading from the unibomber manifesto.
Giradius 1 year ago
Man, my videos seem like shit compared to this masterpiece :P
realman1000000 1 year ago
I personally think that the advances of science allowing us to live longer, have given us more opportunities to make our own decisions in life. Without civilization humans were bound more by the conditions that you mentioned involving women raising children at home and men hunting all of the time. I doubt that you or I would have fared well in a world where all we could do is hunt.
scythiconatron 2 years ago
well actualy initialy civilization shortened life expectancy, second women hunted in hunter gatherer societies, third people still lived to about 80 years if they made it past child birth and the first four years of life. don't quote me on that one I didnt read it on a snapple
twizelby 1 year ago
@twizelby
Regardless of initial effects of civilization, the overall effect has been lengthened life expectancy, in the western world at least. There is a definite segregation of tasks in many cultures between men and women. My main point is that people did not have as many choices of what to do with their lives.
scythiconatron 1 year ago
@scythiconatron that may be true but if we didnt know about those choices we wouldn't miss them. the other thing is that depression rates would be lower because of various psychological factors like time fullfilment and close knit community. however I couldnt personaly live as a hunter gatherer so I see yer point
twizelby 1 year ago
Beautiful Video, Thank you.
indusdolphin 2 years ago
You forgot about the upsides to civilization, like education, public safety, sanitation, and technology. Surely the level of technology we now enjoy would be impossible if there was no civilization to allow us nerds to stop having to fight for our stuff and invent things.
PluralOfEverything 2 years ago
I agree with you, but the reality of the situation is that civilizations are more organized. If I'm off on my own land living the hunter/gatherer life and then civilization creeps up on me with their money and their armies, what am I going to do? Get owned. That's what. So much for my way of life.
KayakCole 2 years ago
It's like might makes right, except more like might makes right no longer matter.
PluralOfEverything 2 years ago
Civilization isn't always spread by violent invasions, sometimes its spread by killing off indiginious people through plagueworld diseases. When i think of civilization i think of a sharp division of labor. Civilization also gives me a chance to leave a lasting legacie that isn't an offspring, and because of that i am very greatfull.
GKCanman 2 years ago
FRANCE MUST BURN
MrBLAKK88 2 years ago
Doing yoga,exercising,eating food that is not processed, & that is whole,finding organic self expression that gratifies our natural needs for expression & creativity, basically being homo sapiens minus the contrivances & artificial repression & conditioning that has been passed down from modern times.I believe we should be as close to our primal identities while still maintaining a healthy degree of organization, & structure as horizontal & as flexible for the needs of people as possible..
catgumart 2 years ago
I agree civilization has done a lot of these things
I think hunter Gatherer societies have there share of problems as well, Ithink they can be happier or less happy depending on the person and their circumstance.I think the entire human race is in a dilemma that comes with existence..though I believe there are ways we can lessen the suffering and solve many problems. One thing that would help "civilized" people would be to stay close to their natural, organic state...(cont.)
catgumart 2 years ago
depends on the civilization.
modogray 2 years ago
Civilization: medicine, art, music, science, knowledge. Ability to fix those ills that you've listed. Without civilization people used to die from the treatable diseases.
You do bring up valid points, but it's not the problem with civilization, but rather with the way society functions.
rodinalex 2 years ago
Thats what he is saying, the way or style a society functions is what we call a particular type of civilization, Islamic or secular! Medicines are good no one saying thats wrong but there is something fundamentally wrong in us when civilization is spread through war!?
KarthikSoun 2 years ago
Agreed, that is a bad thing. But give me an example today where a civilization is spread through war? Iraq and Afghanistan do not count: a) they are not about spreading the civilization
b) the do not follow the pattern that the gentleman describes of the newcomers taxing the indigenous population.
I am talking, in particular, about the spread of secular civilization.
Thank you and good day
rodinalex 2 years ago
rodinalex..all religions would have remained as small cults if not for the kings who used them as an instrument of power to gain loyalty from their people. If the king and the people are of the same religion its easier to get loyalty and control. Right from the Roam times the Romans invaded other tribal countries in the excuse to spread civilization. I hope your not arguing particularly when the evidence is so, this is not my wish,thats how it is in reality.
KarthikSoun 2 years ago
Right, I'm not disputing the historical facts that the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Spaniards, etc, used their culture as a banner to subjugate people. This is obviously true.
What I'm saying is that today secular countries do not do it and it is secular countries that are at the forefront of scientific and cultural developments.
In addition,I disagree with the author's idea about schools and building stuff ourselves. Historically, we have always had professionals, artisans, if you wish
rodinalex 2 years ago
It just seems that the author says that schools get between parents and children and parents should teach their kids how to build and grow and we should do it all ourselves and not rely on others. However, this would bring development to a halt if everyone was training to grow food. Our technology allows a small % of population to provide food for everyone. I'm a theoretical physicist, I don't have time to build my chair, that's why we specialize.
What do you think? Good day!
rodinalex 2 years ago
Romans did farless,thy only attacked tribes in europe and subjugated their land but the christians and muslims subjugated mankind mentally and physically, through war and allurement which again causes war when ppl take sides,instead of being individuals.
Historically,we have always had professionals and historically we have also been killing each other.Then historical does not mean a thing,it only means we hv not questioned it for generations.We hv been born into ideas we seldom question.
KarthikSoun 2 years ago
The speaker says Civilization has sold us the idea that a tribal life style is miserable but even when in civilized society we only live less happier than an unagitated tribal. Civilization is deeply competitive and conflict ridden structure which seeks power, even in a secular country power ends up in the hands of few who use it to tell us what our ambition are how we need to live and we are sold out to those ideas since we hv been born into them much like a muslim baby or a jew.
KarthikSoun 2 years ago
I think the speaker here tells it in a more refined way. I hope you can watch all the 8 parts of his speech in the United Nations..watch?v=7fzV8QH1JeE&feature=related
KarthikSoun 2 years ago
Are you saying that tribal life is not conflict ridden? 20-40% of males in tribal societies died in armed conflicts with neighboring groups (quoting Dr. Andy Thomson's figures). There is not such thing as a "noble savage". Civilization actually reduced the death rate in armed conflicts. We are not talking about religion, we are talking about the notion of civilization. There are always corrupt people, but a social structure allows us to depose such leaders and evolve our civilization.
rodinalex 2 years ago
Again you make it sound like i should take sides! Tribals may die in conflict but depends on where they are from and what influences they had, may be they had influences from the modern world. The Piraha tribe did convert an christian missionary to atheism and when u link the word savage with tribe i can understand you didnt get the point.
To say Civilisation reduced the death rate is realy taking a point and twisting it totally out of proportions to suit someones needs.
KarthikSoun 2 years ago
The speaker specifically says that we have to stop relying on others for goods and such. This means that he would have to build his own computer. As to diseases caused by pollution:
1st, we are trying to work things out even with government bureaucrats getting in the way.
2nd, this pollution still claims less lives than smallpox.
You can't discard civilization just because some things in the current social structures are less than perfect. We have to work to make it better and not just give up:)
rodinalex 2 years ago
When i said speaker i also meant j.krishnamurti in the united nations. Did you watch the video? Watch that and then make up you mind on what i am saying. I dont want to turn this into an 'me vs you' power ride. You need to get what i am saying in the first place. You need to get the fundamentals of human nature thats your own nature that breeds conflict. Tribalism is not an anti dote but the way civilization brands ppl as savages is hypocrisy when we r conflict ridden in our own daily life.
KarthikSoun 2 years ago
Hey! I watched the presentation until the Q&A. He does have many valid points, but that's not what my argument was about.
I was arguing against proteanview's view of schools and trade specialization. Also, he talks about how we want to go to the moon more than we want to feed people. Well, those aren't mutually exclusive. If we stop bombing nations, we'll have money for both.
Now, I don't think that you can deny the fact that some societal structures are superior to others.
rodinalex 2 years ago
E.g.: Free health care is superior to no health care, fair trials are superior to beheading, etc.
To me it seems like proteanview is arguing for the reversal to the nature. I might be wrong, but he seems to be romanticizing the conditions of the pre-literate societies where everyone built homes and harvested food. "Concrete over nature" argument--yes, I love nature and yes, I want to reduce the amount of pollution and get more trees. But, we do need roads for our infrastructure.
rodinalex 2 years ago
I couldn't have said it better. Bravo!
MsStarryN 2 years ago
What comes to mind on the subject of just civilization or modern civilization? Modern civilization to me, is an entire planet depending on industry to oversee their welfare in regards to an easy life with no self obligation to look after your own welfare. Basic civilization, to me, is a gathering of people who
shall be overseen by another civilization who shall mistreat you and drive you toward extinction. So which were you referring to ?
strikenetter 2 years ago
Lovin' this video!
diepiriye 2 years ago
Great video! Why should you pay to live on the planet you were born on... Freewill, Freedom or monetary enslavement... Master your emotions live from your heart and take responsibility
MrLeonzo 2 years ago
Great post on self imposed nonage!
Civilization suffers from:
1) money addiction (single most effective dopamine trigger!!)
[Olds J, Milner P. (1954). "Positive reinforcement produced by electrical stimulation of septal area and other regions of rat brain". J Comp Physiol Psychol 47 (6): 41927.]
2) under diagnosed, tolerated and in Western Nihilizations hugely honored antisocial personality disorder (ICD-10 / 3-6% male pop.), which destroys reciprocal altruism.
Tressco 2 years ago
Clear to the point with a foundation of truth... Well said: proteanview
So whats in a word? A way to let others hear what you have to say.
Copy and paste in Google: a1st. us
or for that matter: proteanview
lol
johnreon 2 years ago
hmm...the book i'm reading right now, Deschooling Society, seems very relevant to this video.
anyway, a lot of the pro-society arguments are really just taking credit for half-solving problems it itself created. exactly like stock brokers do (they are the real leaches of society).
lygophile 2 years ago
"here's where i lose the anarchists & anti-statists because i go after their chosen masters - money and business."
what?
that seems to confuse anarchists with capitalist libertarians. anarchists are about collective ownership and such.
lygophile 2 years ago
I agree! I would rather build my own home, grow my own food, work for myself, etc. These are skills that people should have but people are more concerned with a " name" and image or I guess how they are perceived by others in society. Most people don't understand what life is REALLY about. Let people live the way they want to.If that is what they want out of life then that is their business. We cannot fix what some people will never understand.
prestige334 2 years ago
If the alternative to civilization was to simply live as hunter-gatherers, the earth could only support at most a few million people. Where would the other 6 billion live? So individuals, then, must sacrifice their wants & needs for the community if we are to live at high densities. We are committed to civilization, like it or not. That said, how can we consciously control the conditions of civilization to ensure they're humane?
mapmanic 2 years ago
Ha! I KNEW you'd come back & say you don't believe in vaccines! LOL!
And just so you know, that is FRIENDLY laughter. My daughter is in a Waldorf school, where half the kids are unvaccinated. In fact, we ourselves didn't vaccinate when she was little & it turned out very well b/c we have since discovered she is allergic to several ingredients in some of the vaccines & cannot have them.
Believe me, I am very, very familiar with the vaccine debate. I see them as a double-edged sword...
Peace.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
Your message sounds like an Anarchist discussion, now you are speaking my language. Personally I think the more we can do for each other without involvement from government and big corporations the better we will be. Esentially It is up to us wether we choose to live in or outside of mainstream society.
buddyfreakinholly 2 years ago
I'm sorry to hear you defining something so dear to my heart so disparagingly. I would never do the same concerning the communities you are interested in.
Some people need the variety, urbanity, progress and stimulation afforded by what most people think of as "civilization." If you don't, fine. Go find your bliss. But honesty should move you to be grateful for the vaccines & other perks of civilization that will buffer you against the threats nature used to pose to human survival.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
spot on my friend ~ this is becoming mass consciousness now. We will see the positive changes~combined with a collapse of the old outdated ways of doing things
omegapoint444 2 years ago
While listening to you pontificate about the evils of civilization, you look awfully cozy in your warm condo,with your recessed electric lighting system.(LOL)
tet43 2 years ago
tet43 - Ha! You win! :-P
proteanview 2 years ago 2
@proteanview
No I think the point is still valid. There may be a time when we need these skills again :P
KoschKff 1 year ago
@proteanview Right on! Companies come to my mind. Dictators are dictators, whether they be religious, political, or even commercial. If they are true dictators, having control over one pretty much grants you the control over the others as well. Chrisitanity benefited from global colonization of the world. Hence missionaries are now entering Iraq and "educating" the locals about their religion, as the government teaches them about "civilization" and Wal mart "teaches" them about consumerism.
DixieTrixie101 8 months ago
@proteanview
I see humanity continuing in the direction of a 'Brave New World' type paradigm-- where all traditional value systems are abandoned and individual self-gratification is paramount to all else. Any sense of human purpose will revolve solely around the never-ending pursuit of pleasure and entertainment.
Of course, unequivocal obedience to political authority will be a prerequisite for this indulgent lifestyle since "big brother" blesses the individual with such comfortable luxuries!
bobshenix 4 months ago
right soooo....whats in a name? lol
r34dm4n 2 years ago
For examples of how to work together, look for me on facebook...
the group
Pictures with stranger
TinnManna 2 years ago
freedom is state of mind, if you want an example talk to me I will show you.
find me on facebook, I run a very interesting group.
Pictures with strangers
check it out.
TinnManna 2 years ago
Hah. We make a civilization where nobody helps each other; we have others to do that.
I bet the indians in America were a lot happier before the civilized Europeans came and took everything from them.
LassesIndex 2 years ago
The native Americans had it together... they didn't have homophobia or any of that shit. Trannies made all the decisions. lol
GhostWhisperBlues 2 years ago
Hehe :3
LassesIndex 2 years ago
excellent video
captainspaulding17 2 years ago
YOu always have soem interesting thoughts, protean
Ne0mega 2 years ago
Words do not mean anything until we give them meaning.
sublimebeing 2 years ago
Mmmm... I dunno... Civilisation can just be a sprawling city. That city could start with a single building hundreds of years ago; to say it starts with bloodshed isnt kinda right. Thats not true all the time. Taxes are there to protect people in most cases - even ones own family and ones own self. Healthcare. Services. Etc, etc.
... And basically, I heard no solution to the quote-unquote; 'problem'.
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
The very word Civilization in English is derived from the Latin word Civilis meaning "polite". Most of the assumptions informing European nations about what constitutes civilization come from the tainted head of the Romans. Rome was a proudly fascist society which specialized in genocide, technology theft, and slavery on an unprecedented scale. The model is a bad one, there is nothing admirable about ancient Rome, the "barbarians" brought down a monster.
formless777 2 years ago
Ahem. Speaking of Europeans.
The Germans killed lots of Jews, Gays and other minorities. That doesnt mean that their system is out of whack. Its cruel to say, but all Nazi's did in a lot of cases was follow sciences teachings. The only problem was, they took it to a dark, dark place, rather than learn from it. You forget that most water and pools were contaminated with the prized metal of the time, Lead, and thus, even the Caesars were nutcases. Behaviour is no basis for if a system works?
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
Lead poisoning doesn't make people crazy, you are thinking of mercury. Lead may cause memory loss and some speech development difficulties in kids, but not much in the way of mental impairment.
I think you are offering a "might makes right" argument, popular amongst Romans and other later fascist societies. While it is true that militarism has been common, it is seldom either stable or particularly effective. It is essentially a narcissistic bully culture model.
formless777 2 years ago
Many swimming pools and other bodies of water, even containers where alcohol was fermented, have been found to contain large amounts of lead in many many cases. There was even a few documentaries of this on television.
The more lead you ingest, the worse the mental problems. LOOK at the Caesars. Many were absolutely mental in many cases, and this gives a logical arguement or possible excuse.
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
I strongly urge you to look at the effects of lead poisoning. This doesn't tally, it doesn't make a person psychopathic, it can impair mental function but generally it promotes memory loss, flagging concentration, headaches, depression, but no actual violence. Which emperors are examples you would like to refer to ? I am quite familiar with them.
formless777 2 years ago
I dont think you can honestly dispute the possibility for lead poisoning. Then again, neither can I prove it - but it certainly tallies to me. Constant poisoning over time does indeed cause behavioural problems. Have a look at the majority of the caesars and tell me there wasnt a behavioural problem somewhere.
There were also historical references where larger families were given, how shall I put it, 'an improvement on their lives'. Because many in the hierarchies were failing at families.
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
I make a reference to the fact of larger families beginning to fail, because that was part of historical fact. Many, many children were born weak and didnt survive. It was difficult to produce children.
Oh, and lead poisoning also causes male reproductive problems. Sha-wing.
Another reason why it tallies for me.
S'all I'm saying. We can't honestly disprove it, but for me, theres a LOT of facts there for the support of the possibility.
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that despite the way Rome acted - culturally - that is, slavery was okay at the time, so were many other forms of behaviour. It is only nowadays that its unacceptable. Centuries ago, noone even blinked at it.
Their cultures behaviour, in my opinion, does not take away from the good points of their overall society. Lets say sewers were built by slaves, yes - but those very sewers protected the health of ALL Rome; even the slaves themselves, in the end.
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
There is a good argument that in their reliance on slavery that Rome sowed the seeds of their own destruction. By having so many slaves, they reduced the value of the plebeians as labor and devalued the military as a career. When the catastrophe of the 3rd Century set in, the Roman administration began enslaving any free person who couldn't pay their taxes, and slaves couldn't enter the military. Many free people became new slaves and ultimately serfs in the emergent feudalism.
formless777 2 years ago
Theres a large, myriad amount of reasons why Rome collapsed. Yours may be one thing in that direction, and I wont dispute that, but I dont think it was the one single cause, obviously. I dont even think it was the primary cause. I think there was just a lot of different problems coming from every direction.
At least if we look at it, hopefully we will not repeat it. Or at least, most of the mistakes, in any case.
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
No argument, it was just one of the many causes of instability. I actually think that Constantine the Great's reforms to the military were the real reason for Rome's collapse.
formless777 2 years ago
I'm sure there had to be a tipping point somewhere perhaps. The last straw on the camels back, if it were.
But yeah, there was a LOT of straws on that there dun camels back, ya'll. xD
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
No, I think that many Emperors were very intelligent. There were some very mediocre rulers and a few prize nutcases, but I can name only 4 real "doozies", Caligula , Nero, Commodus and Elagabalus. Not a bad run for 400+ Years.
formless777 2 years ago
I've always been particularly interested in Nero and Caligula myself. : p
tw1stedgrudge 2 years ago
Nero and Caligula ? Really ? I think Elagabalus is much funnier. Commodus liked to fight in the Gladiatorial arena and wanted to rename Rome after himself... "Commode" ? LOL. Elagabalus was a very naughty Syrian kid who basically ran amok with money, silly religion, sex and pranks for 2 years until the Praetorians murdered him hiding in the loo. The details are very funny, if you like that sort of thing, look into these two.
formless777 2 years ago
When I think of civilization, I think about a computer game. :D
ApemanD 2 years ago
Have you been reading Quinn?
What comes to mind is the great forgetting and the wispers of mother culture.
What comes to mind is that we do more work just to survive than any one or anything else since the dawn of time.
EverydayPlacebo 2 years ago
i am an extra terrestrial
and i am asking, no DEMANDING that you denounce your sinner ways today
join my plejaren world order
a ministry of love and light
cassiusalien 2 years ago
Xenu?
EverydayPlacebo 2 years ago
This was a great video...
tnj2323 2 years ago
@ 0:56 : You do realize that not all anarchists are anarcho-capitalists, right? It might appear that way as the majority of the youtube anti-statists seem to be of that persuasion, but in the world at large it is not the case.
antisubaru 2 years ago
I am getting so pissed about re-appearing videos that I've already watched. The next day, "my subscriptions has been updated".
Fittfan 2 years ago
I agree with you to a degree,reminds me of "The Village". I've often wanted to go build a cabin in the woods and live off the land, away from the coruption of current society. However, I do not have the knowledge that a teacher who went to school to teach does, so my children would not get the best education they could, I do not know of medicine and disease, so I would be suseptable to premature death as well as my family, if a "medicine man" was not available. The simple life is centuries dead.
bisna536 2 years ago
Well, good luck with that.
An ex-boyfriend of mine has been struggling for years to become "self-sufficient" on his little organic farm. He's smart, frugal, committed and highly competent. Yet he has found true self-sufficiency out of reach and he is driving trucks & buses on the side to pay the bills.
Even if he were to make it, though, he would still depend on the civilization around him to meet many of his needs and protect his land ownership.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
While most of what he is saying is true you also have to look at the benefits that a civilisation gives us, such as medicens to have a better EASIER life style.
GonzoZodiac 2 years ago
Well, thats a great argument to not go to college if you can't afford it.
As to the final scenario, it might be best not to tell the person. One reason you have drunks survive accidents is that they are loose, and they go with the impact.
Basically you injure yourself more if you brace yourself, but if you compleately loose, and just go with the blast you can survive better.
StuffedAnimalAdvisor 2 years ago
Of course, one does not need stretch your idea too far to see the parrallells with Iraq and the current war there. It seems, to me, to be an example of the very thought you present here....and that is just another example of US imperialism.
macbadapple 2 years ago
What came to my mind as I watched this was, all the missionaries, throughout history, who decimated entire cultures in the name of civilization - in the name of their god. Never mind these cultures had values and morals of their own, the conquorers values were thrust upon them. It happened here with the native Indians, in SouthAmerica with their native cultures, and still is happening in remote parts of the worl. That seems to be the goal, to break down their culture, so that we may insert ours.
macbadapple 2 years ago 5
The great thing about life is you can easily free yourself once you free your mind.
TinnManna 2 years ago
to tinnmanna You can't free yourself from having to pay property taxes by freeing your mind. As long as you must pay to live you are not free. That's just that phony "positive energy" psycho babble. Sounds good but it isn't true.
alyssalenter 2 years ago 5
okay. today civilisation means to me: cutting all ties with nature.
sarcophyllus 2 years ago 3
When I think of civilization, I think of many things but the first and most important is a system of laws & justice. That's what civil life really is, a collective agreement to attempt to settle disputes through disinterested 3rd parties, instead of the blood feuds typical of pre-civilized societies.
In his series Civilisation, Kenneth Clark said those who claim to admire barbarism haven't given it sufficient trial.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
As an artist I'd much rather we continued to improve our civilization than give it up.
There's no way I could cultivate my creativity to the maximum if I spent all my time having and raising kids and doing all the very hard work it takes to wrest a pre-civilized living from the Earth.
Great art as well as great literature, science, music, mathematics, jurisprudence, etc requires people to specialize, which requires civilization.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
i'd have to disagree...my studio is in the country that doesn't require civilization.....unless you're talking about mainstream artists....who are not really artists...just part of corporatism.
MajNorberg 2 years ago 2
Wow. What an incredibly snobby thing to say! Who are YOU to decide someone else isn't "really" an artist?
Secondly, if you think your studio in the country, with its secure land ownership (whether yours or a landlord's) doesn't need civilization, you are living in a dream world
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
does art really need an audience?....who cares...
When I work for a corporation I do what "they" want...when I work at home..I do what "I" want regardless if anyone sees it or not.....
MajNorberg 2 years ago
You know what...I don't really care if people see me as an artist or not .....If fact I prefer craftsperson better.....especially with all the"art" out there.
MajNorberg 2 years ago
Does art require an audience? Perhaps yours doesn't. Others might see such an enterprise as bourgeois navel gazing. But if it's a philosophical stance that works for you, fine.
I still think your initial remark was petty, narrow-minded, mean and downright ridiculous.
Is Michelangelo not "really" an artist because the Sistine Chapel was painted the way "they" wanted it?
Get real.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
Apologies then if Apologies are accepted on youtube....
I guess I don't have the stomach for a "damien hearst" where only a few selected by their inner friends that determine what the public consumes....curators determine culture...not the artist at this point. I have gladly placed myself as crafts person and not an "artist"....When I sell my work and I have no problems taking pride in being a "businessman"
But in the context of the D. Hearst ..the term "artists" is elitist .
MajNorberg 2 years ago
As far as I know, apologies are accepted by rational people everywhere.
I will offer one too, for using such harsh terms when gentler ones might have gotten the point across just as well.
I will not quarrel with your critique of the system. It has more than its share of flaws. But the artists participating in it are not to blame and many fine ones have emerged from it.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
Eyelean, I would like to respond both here and in private message to both of your comments.
#1- Your argument is completely invalid. Civilization has lead to more murder, more warfare, more genocide, more famine, and more disease than any social organization in the history of our species.
#2 Civilization does make it possible for you to devote more time as an artist. However, this is a pleasure that is not possible for the vast majority of civilized people.
chenquie 2 years ago
chenquie, I'm afraid I can't agree.
1 In your private message you mention 4 names as sources, 2 of which are pre-modern, the other two of which actually back up what I've said below in terms of the problem of blood feuds.
2 Yes, empires exacerbate human evil but didn't invented them. I'm afraid there's never been a perfect time in human history.
3 Please don't make statements about me. You don't know me. I most CERTAINLY do have more time for art than any hunter-gatherer.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
4 As for the vast majority of civilized people, most of them do not wish to be artists. Yes, of course they should have the opportunity to pursue whatever calling they do have, to which I say let's keep improving our civilization. Chucking it would accomplish nothing.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
Civilization begins with conquest abroad and repression at home -Stanley Diamond.
2. Blood feuds have existed among human beings. There's no doubt. However, deliberate warfare of extinction is almost unheard of by tribal societies. There is a plethora of research by anthropologists showing that many tribal societies often engaged in fighting in which it is common that little to no deaths occure.
3- What I was saying is yes, YOU have more time to be an artist. However, the vast majority
chenquie 2 years ago
of the world's civilized population does not. They work all day and every day. Whereas the average hunter gatherer works 3.5-4 hours a day.
4. I once agreed with this argument until I realized that civilization feeds off of exploitation. We in the West benefit at the detriment of other nations. They will always be at the bottom, and we'll remain at the top. There are simply not enough resources for all of the world to live as Americans do. It's impossible.
chenquie 2 years ago
And to add to #2, violence exists in the natural world. There is no doubt. However, the kind of violence tribal societies participated in was often simply raiding a neighbor or startling them by surprise. Yes, there are a few examples of tribalist behaving differently, but the vast majority lived this way. If you want to discuss violence, let's talk about civilization. Let's discuss the genocide against the Native Americans. Let's discuss the World Wars. Let's discuss Rwanda.
chenquie 2 years ago
Let's discuss Kosovo. Let's discuss the millions of people enslaved around the world. Let's discus the millions of people starving. Let's discus the multitude of species disappearing from this planet.
chenquie 2 years ago
I see no point in going backwards, especially when you consider most of the people reading this would not even have been born without civilization.
As Cahill put it, hunting/gathering is a high-wire act without a net. Many babies do not survive infancy. Many mothers do not survive childbirth and large percentages die off throughout childhood. Millions of family lines would simply not exist today.
So let's keep making a good thing better, is how I see it and I wish more folks appreciated it.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
Chenquie,
Hunter-gatherers may spend 4 hours a day procuring food, but it's not all they do, especially the mothers.
We actually agree on many things here. I share your critiques of civilization whole-heartedly. Every thing you said against it is absolutely true.
BUT it is only one side of the coin. Just as civ magnifies human evil, it also greatly magnifies our good. It is also clearly progressing in a more human direction at an accelerating rate.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
Yes, in a sense that is correct, but when you consider the alternative, well, I bet you wouldn't trade places.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
The girl scouts used to make things, build camps from nothing and forage the wilderness for food. These days they just raise money for charities ...
patriciaredstone 2 years ago 2
Yeah, my daughter wants to join GS in the worst way but when I checked it out and saw how far down they've come from where they were, I just couldn't do it.
Joined 4H instead.
EyeLean5280 2 years ago
Sometimes I wonder if civilization is a life form of it's own. It's born, it grows, it dies. We are the cells with different roles. States, nations, etc,. are the organs. We believe there is a conspracy, an illuminati, but it's just this mind force as the composite sum of of the attitude of it's billionsof members. Civilizations get sick and can get well too. What you observed are the internal bodily processes. Some can be gross and some are beautiful.
tenagliac 2 years ago 2
are we enslaved to the banks and debt? yes... but honestly, you have the freedom to escape it all if you really wanted to. frankly, id rather use our monetary system than some other bartering system where i couldnt get a big mac when i wanted to, and that's my choice.
talktal 2 years ago
i think civilization can leave some people spinning out of balance. Like a tire on wheel, the more it rolls the weirder the wear where the rubber meats the road. Modern life is really very tough on nature and happiness. It has to do with limiting vision and activities, with a reward habit and lust. Modern constrained living can make people impaired. Because they don't learn directly from observation and analysis.
hypnofan35 2 years ago
When I think of civilization I think of indoor plumbing and modern medicine. I happen to support both wholeheartedly.
CarryANationIII 2 years ago
What we have here is hierarchal power formations. Of course the bottom folks will be kept down especially if they tend to be honest and not players. Players seem to have a natural leg up, but might be light on equitable or ethical behavior. First will come the threats, and then will arrive some violence or war. i guess that's how life works. The stationary culture will begin to block out a migrating culture.
hypnofan35 2 years ago
Civilization is a group of people workin together to benefit everyone. By allowing people to focus on what they do best, everybody can enjoy the most of what everybody makes. Although you can never count power out of the equation. And power is attained through money. Who ever holds power denies resources to others for his own benefit. That is what power is. So if someone is put behind (poor), well it is obvious someone stole it away from them. (because you can only be poor in relation to another
BrutusAlbion 2 years ago
Exactly! Well said Brother, well said...
TheHippness 2 years ago
Very well put proteanview. I've thought somewhat about this.
yuukisama2001 2 years ago
i don't know where to start. i couldn't agree with you more. It is up to concerned people to voice their concerns. There is no solution without experience, without some kind of comunity action. i am grateful that I raise my kids, that i do not shuttle them off to someone else to do it, for how long that lasts. i think it is possible to have a culture that respects its individuals, but not without alot of work. But it is possible!
peaceandquietx1000 2 years ago
Awesome!
peaceandquietx1000 2 years ago
Specialization is the unintended consequence of technological advancement. That is how quite a few English people developed their surnames. A specialty in a particular field.
People over time have become more acute in their skill base due to the ease and affordability of consigning others to perform certain tasks.
Very few today immerse themselves into as many fields as possible. Very few examples of modern renaissance men.
Instead we are consumed with pursuits of leisure.
chicom70 2 years ago
Civilization encompasses more than just the technological / industrial aspect of a society. Many facets combine, such as language, the arts, theology, commerce, and philosophical instruments of law and government. For a lack of a better term, this is what is referred to as culture.
Far from advocating a luddite revival, I understand all endeavors of man has it's place. To artificially constrain any segment would be to invite unintended consequences.
Equilibrium in all should be the goal.
chicom70 2 years ago
This in my opinion is the best video you have made.
The subject is very true & something I strongly despise about human life.
TherianthropeAndrewH 2 years ago
spot on truth hes speaking, this kind of prison without bars that we live in only works if we let it, people really should take control of their own limited time in this life
uwmbigb 2 years ago
I wouldn't want to give up the advances in science in exchange for a more simple life. I lived that simple life as a kid, and it's not that romantic. Outdoor toilet, no TV, just a radio, a coal stove in the middle of the living room, no electricity except in the butter shed, newspapers to insulate your bed in the winter. We only went to town for bullets to shoot coyotes bothering the sheep. No thanks. I prefer civilization myself.
YerAlwaysWrong 2 years ago
The Venus project! comes to mind
thevenusprojectDOTcom
sarcophyllus 2 years ago
Yeah, but I don't think that will make any difference whatsoever. Reasons being the rest of civilization will continue as normal, forming to what they already know and do. Something new and different, even what can be seen by most as a good thing and what should be the correct way - why would people change if they like what they have? You need to solve the issues with greed and fortune first (as pointed out in the video of worth) before even scratching the surface.
angelxsid 2 years ago
Comment removed
sarcophyllus 2 years ago
When I hear the word civilization, I think of it more on global terms. Meaning, the world as a whole. We as humans are civilization. We as inhabitants of this planet are civilization.
To answer your question, the "civilized" thing to do, for me, is to not tell me that truck is coming.
FatWagar 2 years ago
You want us to go back to tribalism? You want to rid the world of technology? You will see great suffering if that ever comes to fruition.
Onodera1980 2 years ago
That's not what he is saying, there are other ways to do things. Just because what we currently have right now works for most, and is still "pushing forward" (even though it could be much faster), doesn't mean it's what is best and the solution. In order for civilization to advanced it needs to change the manner in how we do it already - forgetting the expenses for something that really works for everyone.
angelxsid 2 years ago
Civilization attempts to organize chaos. How we end where we are currently is through Man's repeateded attempts to advance as a species.
Iceman22742 2 years ago
i'd say we waste a lot more money in a lot more ways than flying to the moon i.e. going to war, eating meat (16 lbs. of grain only produces 1 lb. of beef. think of all the people we could feed if those grains when to people-it would, by the numbers, eliminate world hunger completely).
StopmeatGoveg 2 years ago
When I think of civilization, I think of organization.. not competition and profits.
evoke1988 2 years ago
Well then by all means Proteanveiw, go live in the jungle. Some of this, the violence and coercion, is the product of bad government, not civilization. The rest is people's personal choice. It is hypocritical to condemn civilization while still living in it. Go live in the jungle and tell your visitors how much better off you are then. The rest of us will continue to enjoy the many wonderful things cooperating as a species has given us. You won't convince us to destroy it.
Fetchdafish 2 years ago
Civilisation is supposed to be people woking together to form a society, nowadays society has become synthetic, and i guess thats where the problem lies.
the only thing close to a solution i can think of would be to live your life, not get wrapped up in money, be happy and help others.
call me crazy.
justseanmusic 2 years ago
Which civilisation do we want?
divinacomedias 2 years ago
I guess after thinking a few minutes I would say that the word "civilization" brings to ming a city or large town, where trade is going on. Where basic necessities of life are available, food, water, shelter and where help may be found amount the population for whatever you need might be. Where there is a structure in place for safety, like police. A good thing to find at the end of what might have been an endless desert.
Boomer1949 2 years ago
great vid!
sheisafreedomfighter 2 years ago
I love you :) great video
Tinfoilhatlady 2 years ago
The best solution is to create a world where people share the resources of the world, without the need for money. We have to come up with a way to organize such a reality or the human race is going to be destroyed. A system based on selfishness and greed can't last long.
freedomfighterone 2 years ago
a state is a monopoly in violence, thats what I l learn the first day on the university
herrbananapa 2 years ago
The monetary system that we are adhering to here in the Western World is a totally corrupt system that is designed to fail. And as the system is going down, the criminal elite are buying up all of the natural resouces and technology so that the masses of people will be no more then serfs on the plantation.
freedomfighterone 2 years ago
The problem with male-dominated societies....
Jasumi 2 years ago
I think you're making a mistake, here. Governments and thus civilizations are merely a concentration of power, and usually at least partly a community project. Power is going to be concentrated at some level, other than the individual. But whether you do it at the community or national level doesn't really matter, and the national level has big advantages for groups that have something in commong.
Brandt761 2 years ago
zzzzzack syndrome!
ewops 2 years ago
Protean, that's one kind of creativity civilization strips you of. But it also enables you to be creative in a gazillion ways that you wouldn't be able to otherwise, because you're not busy hunting your own food. And if you want to build your own house, you can still do that if you do it right (although perhaps your family would thank you if you let professionals do it).
Brandt761 2 years ago
Ask any Anthropologist and he will tell you that tribal communities hunt for no more than 1-2 hours per day.
SirPercivil 2 years ago
Ummm...yeah, I'm gonna say no on that one. Specifically, it would depend heavily upon the environment in which said communities exist. If it's rich in food, maybe so. But in other areas, hunters may be gone for days on end before they have secured a sources of food. Plus, the hunt is often dangerous.
Brandt761 2 years ago
We go to the moon because there's enough clean fuel there to power us for centuries.
Besides, why do people NEVER criticize billions spent on MILITARY and always do criticize the 1% spent on science? Why do you all support war and killing so much?
shihouka 2 years ago
you can commandeer my land anytime. And by land, I mean vagina.
EbonyAbraxas 2 years ago 2