The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife?
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
Historically and Biblically, it appears to me highly unlikely that a literal Hell doesn't exist in some form. But I do agree with my universalist brethren that it is not likely a place of eternal torment. I too have a very difficult time reconciling the idea of God as truly just and merciful and also tormenting human souls forever and ever with fire and brimstone.
If you go to the tentmaker777 channel you'll find a lot of encouragement and information. If you key word tentmaker ministries you'l find a lot of good info there too as well at lovewins with a us extension. It's a new site dedicated to spreading the truly good news.
As far as my personality profiling God Himself, and saying that it's according to my views, you're totally wrong there too. It's according to your views, not mine.
My views are in line with what scripture declares about God. Namely, that He's Holy, Sovereign, Just, Righteous, Compassionate, Loving, Merciful & Good.
Your views have Him never showing mercy to the masses.
You purposely avoided many of the verses I quoted.
@dk Since you have this wealth of knowledge that we're not privy too, apparently, could you please let me know what this hell, that you believe in, actually is, & what happens to people who end up there? Thanks dude.
@dkarnish I love how you interpreted those verses. Your words said it all. Have a nice day dude. I'll leave you with your delusions of a God who causes the masses to be tortured for all eternity & you actually think that's just & want to worship such a sick evil being.
Here's one clue though, just for you. Jesus NEVER spoke of hell. Not once. The bible NEVER talks about hell.
Hell is a myth. It doesn't exist. You've been lied to & deceived. God isn't sick & evil.
"In this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for ALL people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And He shall destroy on this mountain "the surface of the covering" cast over ALL nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from ALL faces." (Isaiah 25:6-8)
"ALL the families of the earth shall be blessed." (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)
But I know I know. I'm misunderstanding these verses. They don't mean what they appear to say right? I'm taking them out of context right?
They don't mean that God will actually be merciful to everyone in the end. No. It couldn't mean that. God be merciful to everyone? How silly that would be huh? Please. LOL
Why heaven wouldn't be heaven if everyone ends up there. Right?
"Through the Lord's mercies we are NOT consumed, because His compassions FAIL NOT. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness." (Lam. 3:21-24)
"The Lord will NOT cast off forever. Though He causes grief, YET He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies." (Lam. 3:31-32)
"For I will NOT contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, and the souls which I have made." (Isaiah 57:16)
God "reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him." (Isaiah 65:1)
"The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to ALL, and His tender mercies are over ALL His works. "ALL Your works shall praise you", 0 Lord." (Psalm 145:8-10)
"0 You Who hear prayer, to you "ALL flesh will come". Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them." (Psalm 65:2-4)
God is "gracious in ALL His works." (Psalm 145:17)
"The EARTH is the Lord's and ALL its fullness, the world and THOSE WHO DWELL therein." (Psalm 24:1)
"ALL the kings of the earth "shall praise you", 0 Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth." (Psalm 138:4)
"Through the greatness of your power "your enemies" shall submit themselves to you. ALL the earth "shall worship You" and sing praises to you." (Psalm 66:3-4)
Therefore ultimately all will be saved. That doesn't mean we don't reap what we sow nor does it mean some don't reject God for a time. But in the end every knee will bow and every tongue swear allegiance.
It really is good news for all men like Luke 2:10 says.
You should check out the articles on tentmaker. This stuff has been investigated thoroughly.
@dkarnish Hey dude. You're the one who started in with the attitude, not me. I'm just giving you a taste of your own medicine, mixed in with sarcasm, of course. Like I said. I wouldn't waste my time debating someone like you. It would be pointless to do such. Enjoy your beliefs.
@Lightmane321 proved what, and how, I haven't even tried to argue that God wouldn't accomplish all he desires. You came up with this one on your own, If you are incapable of having a proper discussion thats your issue, if you turn to ridicule and name calling you got the issue. I'm not afraid to discuss it with you and I won't go running to someone else to prop myself up in my conversation.
Lightmane321 funny, these people and this garbage, so much for displaying the love of Christ and the true message of the gospel. Is this how you feel about every one who doesn't believe or see things the way you do? Is this how you get people to want to show what you have and for them to want it. Wow, whats the point? Jesus may not be judging me but boy you certainly have. I want to run out and tell every one about how wonderful those in Christian Universalism are. Thank you for the warm welcome
Dkarnish, do you give non-believers a loving welcome when you introduce they only hope as one who is powerless to save most of mankind? When you repeated quote the darkest part of the Bible, verses that have been mistranslated and you don't study to see this is so, do you mislead God's people. Did Jesus rebuke those who through their self-righteousness become blind leading the blind into pits of ignorance? Are you playing the hypocrite here? You can dish it out but you can't take it. Are you
Do you see how many people are debating this? I KNOW i cannot convince you, or prove to you....IT is not my job to do that...I understand your argument that people could do what they want, and end up still in heaven...IT is natural to find this unfair, but Matthew 20 proves the same point of those that object to GOD giving life to all. As in ADam ALL DIE, in CHRIST ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE. That's bible. Take care.
@dkarnish Universalism is what the bible BOLDLY PROCLAIMS, but you have no idea what it actually means & even if I showed it to you, you'd just say that I'm wrong & that I've proven nothing, so I won't bother.
Hey Gary. I see what you mean now. It really is INSANE what these people actually believe about God & they get this garbage from their bibles too. WOW!
I did learn that the word used for 'punishment' in Matthew 25:46 is "KOLASIN aionion" and is the same word to make a tree more frutiful by pruning it. God's end result for lake of fire is 'correction' because it is His glory that every knee and every tongue will confess in worship to the Lord Jesus. I'm not debating this...i have much more studying to do.
@nestosolo exactly dude. but don't try explaining that to these people. they'll swear you didn't get that from the bible or you're not interpretating that correctly (translation - it doesn't agree with what we believe so it's a lie - LOL)
@dkarnish Even if i consider the possibility of Universalism to be true...(and I am reading, and see many solid points in the bible that may teach in the END that death will be fully abolished)///But the way you explain it is incorrect to what i see in the bible...God didnt look into time to see who would believe, or just 'know' because he is all knowing...GOD chose certain people to have life in THIS age and the AGE TO COME. These are the elect.
@nestosolo *God didn't look into time to see who would believe, or just "know" because he is knowing... God chose certain people to have life in THIS age and the AGE TO COME. These are the elect."
*Snort* A Calvinist... What did you expect from him, guys? They believe that only a selected few will be saved and that God will eternally torture 99% of mankind, EVEN unborn babies and the mentally ill. Calvinists are sick and Calvinism is of the devil...
The wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire, and that by the assistance of angels. These angels will not be taking anyone to some heavenly rehab center for correctional training. The context is punishment not refinement.
And the result? "Then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of their Father."
With the wicked extracted and eliminated, the people of God will be unhindered in their service and worship of God.
You say: With the wicked extracted and eliminated...
Gee, where have I read terminology like this before? Oh, yes, Hitler, Stalin, Mao tze tung, Pol Pot, The Roman Catholic Church, Netynyahu, Golda Meir, George Bush. Yes, tyrants and elitists of all types speak like this. But how does the slain lamb on the throne with its throat cut in Revelation speak?! "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of! For the Son of man did not come to destroy men's lives but to SAVE THEM!
No, the terminology is Biblical. Oh, that's right, you only read those portions that make you happy. Remember the tares and wheat, good fish and bed, sheep and goats? God will "extract" all things that offend from His kingdom. He will use angels to do it. Those are the very words of Matthew 13. And these wicked, offensive people will be cast into a furnace of fre. It's right there in the Bible.
I don't expect the guy who delights in pounding his pulpit to go for a look, but every single verses the pounder brings up here has been thoroughly examined by those who embrace the Savior of the World. On the Tentmaker site is a page called Scholars Corner and there are entire books dealing with these verses the pounder just loves and probably feeds his congregation using the most hellish translation of all, the KJV. Bible Threatenings Explained and The Bible Hell are two good books to read.
@tentmaker777 The Bible is the best commentary on itself, reading studies by men outside of it to put your trust into is a mistake. You only present one side of the coin, you talk of God's Love for the world but you fail to mention that God(the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit) who is perfect Love, is also perfect Justice. You cannot have one without the other, or God would be denying Himself, which HE can't do. God loves fallen sinful man, but GOD HATES SIN, and He promises to deal with it.
No, I don't present one side of the coin. God is LOVE. That is His nature. Out of that love comes His mercy, forgiveness, holiness, justness, sovereignty, power, etc. Holiness and justice is not contrary to His love. " "When God's judgements are in the earth, it will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" "Mercy shall triumph over judgment." James 2:13 You are in unbelief, that is why you can't see what is plain. What kind of church do you attend?
@tentmaker777 Your right, you don't present any sides of the coin. You state justness but you OBVIOUSLY don't know the meaning of that word. God is just BECAUSE HE IS HOLY. The imperfection of sin and rebellion cannot exist in the presence of a righteous and holy God. Those in the world, who reject Jesus completely will NEVER learn righteousness. Revelation 16:11 and they cursed the God of heaven for their pains and sores. BUT THEY REFUSED TO REPENT OF ALL THEIR EVIL DEEDS. Your wrong once again
A person who contrasts God's Holiness and Justice with His mercy and forgiveness is a person who does not know that God's nature and character is LOVE and His holiness and mercy is NOT a contradiction or opposite to His holiness and justice. They are one. A person who does not know God's love does not realize that His justice may in fact BE mercy. "Mercy shall triumph over judgment." James 2:13. People enamoured with sending people to Hell really have vengence in their heart, not love.
@tentmaker777 James 2:13 For He shall have judgement without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy REJOICETH* against judgement. (*Greek here is KAUCHAOMAI , to boast, to glory, is rendered to rejoice or rejoicing against, it in no way implies 'triumph' unless you are saying Greek isn't Greek anymore) So does Jesus have vengeance in His heart when he speaks of people being cast into hell? Is He enamored with sending to people there when HE speaks of it? Afraid to keep my comments posted?
You are a spammer. This is NOT a discussion board, it is a place to leave a comment. Period. You abuse the privileges here. Regarding your intense desire to paint God as awefulas you possibly can (because you do the word of the devil), you neglect the higher view of God expressed plainly in the Scriptures: Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are
He hates sin in you. So will He torture you foever because you are incapable of stopping? Please think this through before answering. If you take a moment, you will see your double standards and hypocrisy and then Jesus can heal you.
@tentmaker777 Jesus dealt with the sin for all mankind on the cross once and for all, but if a person denies the Holy Spirit, Who leads people to salvation in Jesus, they are rejecting the very forgiveness and sacrifice that Jesus paid for them, the penaly for their sins. If the choose to reject this salvation, how can they, unforgiven, go into the presence of a perfect and HOLY God? Its simple, they cannot, because they have rejected the only mediator between themselves and the Father.
friend, I assure you, you are far from perfect and holy. If God can clean you up of all your self-righteousness and unjustness, he can clean up a prostitute or alcoholic. Death does not stop Jesus. That's what you don't get. Jesus has the keys to death and hades/hell. He loves all mankind. What do you think He is going to do with those keys? Open your heart to God's love for you my friend. Your working to be holy will never cut it, it's all about grace. Learn how to give it to others.
@tentmaker777 Jesus spoke more about wrath then he did about love, now why would the Lord take so much time to speak about something that was never going to happen in the first place? Why would the Holy Spirit, who penned the very words of scripture go to such length to speak about something that wasn't something to be concerned about? Wouldn't He be wasting a lot of words on a moot point? Why do you call Jesus SAVIOR if he hasn't really saved you from anything?
Many preacher say Jesus spoke more on hell than heaven. But when one goes to the concordance, they find that is a very big lie. So is your statement about wrath. I suggest you stop quoting lying traditions and begin to study to show yourself approved. What did Jesus save me from? If you google testimony Gary Amirault you will find out what Jesus saved me from. And if you open your heart, He will save you from all the fears and pain that are evident in your writings here. How old are you?
@tentmaker777 Its funny, Rome doesn't want its followers to even read the Holy Bible, it has murdered translators all through history, the mormons teach their followers that the Holy Bible has been corrupted and can only be correctly translated by them. The Watchtower Society changes words in the Holy Bible in their translation but won't reveal the name of those who did the translation. This is no exception, you focus so much on your position of universalism that you miss the gospel message.
It is funny that you don't know what you are talking about, even in the tradition your family belongs to. The Mormon church uses the King James Bible. I've never been a Jehovah's witness and do not use their translation. You side step the real issue and that is "Jesus IS the Savior of the world" because my Bible and heart tell me so. That is good news. Those whose hearts are filled with fear cannot receive such good news. So the question, is, dkarnish, what's the source of your fear?
Hey Gary. I've been meaning to ask you. In the debate with Jerry, you brought up the issue that 4 of the 6 theological schools in the early church taught Universalism & Jerry immediately said that you were wrong & you both said nothing more.
Why didn't that issue continue? Why did Jerry say you were wrong?
If this is historical fact, then why doesn't this come out more?
We have some of that info on our web site, Tentmaker Ministries. Several authors I have in my library have quoted such, including Canon F.W. Farrar of the Church of English.
We do not deny that God will indeed judge the whole world, nor do we wish to make light of His judgments. We are challenging the belief that His judgment on sin and unbelief is eternal torment/Hell and never-ending separation from God. Certainly, Jesus spent a lot of his ministry warning people to repent or reap the consequences, (particularly "Gehenna.") But could we be reading more into His warnings than He originally intended?
If Hell is a place of no escape, why did the early church teach Jesus went to Hell (Hades), preached to them and led captivity captive? Eph 4:8-9, Psalm 68:18, 1 Peter 3:18-20
If the grave settled the matter forever, why did the early Christians offer up prayers for the dead? Why were they baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29)
If Hell lasts forever, why the Psalmist confidently speak again and again about being rescued from it (sheol)? (Psalms 16:10, 30:2-3, Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 116:3-8, 139:8).
If Hell is real, how can Solomon teach that the spirit of man will return to the God Who gave it? (Ecc 12:7).
This is all taken from the article 'Honest Questions and Answers about Hell'
@Lightmane321 You need to read the whole chapter of Corinthians 15 to understand exactly what Paul was teaching, if you do you will see Paul is answering those who say that there is no resurrection of the dead and that Jesus was never resurrected. If this was true then all who believed in Jesus and had been baptized were still dead in their sins and that they had come out of the water just as dead in their sins as when they went down into it. Basically they were doing something pointless.
@Lightmane321 Jesus preached the Gospel to those who had never had a chance to hear it before he came into the world. Jesus said the Gospel would be preached unto the ends of the earth, so every one will have a chance to hear the gospel. Those who existed before God Himself came incarnate (Jesus) had never had a chance to hear the gospel, Jesus preached it to them, if He had not they would not understand fully that the Lord provided them the gift of salvation through Jesus death & resurrection.
@dkarnish You're like most people. You think you know what Universalism teaches, but you haven't a clue.
But thanks for the info. Enjoy worshipping a god who will fail to save those that he wants to save & will allow them instead to be tormented for all eternity. Enjoy worshipping that.
I'll worship the God who's all powerful & all knowing & who desires that all men be saved.
That God won't fail to accomplish that which He desires. He can't.
@Lightmane321 back up your position by scripture please, its easy to state something without backing it up. God doesn't fail anybody, you obviously refuse to see God for who the Holy Bible state He is. God is perfect in every way, perfect Love, perfect Truth, perfect Light, and perfect Justice. But what you also don't understand about God's nature is that he is perfectly HOLY, so how can imperfect finite fallen men who don't accept what Jesus did on the cross exist in God's HOLY presence.
@dkarnish "But what you also don't understand about God's nature is that he is perfectly HOLY, so how can imperfect finite fallen men who don't accept what Jesus did on the cross exist in God's HOLY presence."
Like I said. You have no idea what you're talking about. But nice try.
"But what you also don't understand about God's nature is that he is perfectly HOLY, so how can imperfect finite fallen men who don't accept what Jesus did on the cross exist in God's HOLY presence."
But because I'm such a sweetie, I'll give you a little hint. They WILL ACCEPT what Jesus did on the cross.
Study your bible & you'll learn this. Then you'll be happy too & you'll rejoice at such glorious good news.
@Lightmane321 You obviously don't know or read the Holy Bible(all of it by the way not just the parts that support your position), if you did you would see it for yourself and then you would have to make a choice. If I haven't got a clue then why don't you enlighten me then, using the Holy Bible to back up your views. WE both know, you cannot, you can grab bits and pieces, and try to state that words have been misunderstood or mistranslated, but you will not be able to prove Universalism.
EVERY PERSON WHOM CHRIST DIED FOR WILL GO TO HEAVEN....100% FOR SURE. He obtained eternal redemption for His people. BUT this does not mean he died for every person. Hell is real. Christ said to fear him who can destroy both body AND soul in hell. Those that don't believe the gospel will die in their sins and be cast into the lake of fire. All who believe a false gospel will be condemned. Christ died for his sheep only. THe elect, predestined from the foundations of the world.
@Indigohue No it's not. It's what the bible proclaims. Teaching that people will burn in hell for all eternity is a FALSE doctrine & those who preach it are deceiving people.
The Bible doesn't even come close to saying that all will be saved.
Belief in hell isn't a requirement to end up there. Oh, and if you have concrete, unequivical evidence that hell is not real or eternal provide it, until then I'll believe the word of God.
@Indigohue You don't believe the word of God. You believe your english translation of the word of God, which came from men with pre-conceived beliefs that came from traditions of men.
Many bibles today do not contain the words 'hell' or 'everlasting or eternal punishment'. That's because honest translators didn't let tradition prevent them from translating those words correctly.
Do a word study on the word aion & aionian & olam & others.
In Luke 12:5 Jesus says “But I will show you whom you should fear. Fear Him, who after the killing of the body has the power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him.
If hell were just the grave, what would we have to fear and why would we need to be saved.
The last words of some famous atheists attest to the fact that on their deathbed they suddenly realised that they had made a fearful error and sensed that only an eternity of separation from God awaited them.
@Indi In Luke 12:5, the word that our english bibles translated hell is 'Gehenna'. I'll assume you know what Jesus was referring to. A frightful image, to be sure, but there's nothing in the bible which says that people who are 'thrown' into it (which is symbolism) will literally be burned alive for all eternity, despite our english words to the contrary.
This imagery that Jesus used has to do with (YES), God's wrath on sin.
God's 'wrath' is not forever. Sin & death will be destroyed.
However, thanks for taking the time to challenge me. If you prove me wrong, then I've been corrected & have more truth & less error. If you prove me right, then you've got more truth & less error.
Rev 20 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire.
The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:47-50
This isn't symbolism, it's fact,unless of course Jesus was a liar.
@Indi You're right dude. The Book of Revelation isn't symbolism. It's all literal fact. That sea of glass & that beast with 7 heads & 10 horns. All fact. And if someone says it's symbolism, well... that's just their interpretation. Right! Got it.
How about this one Indi "Our God IS a CONSUMING FIRE"
It's gotta be literal right?
"Death & Hell were cast into the lake of fire"
HELL is cast into the lake of fire? HUH? It's literal, right?
In the Old Testament, when a person died their physical body went into the grave, (Job 21:13), but their spirit went to Sheol –Hades. Sheol is not the final Hell of Scripture
Rev 20 "And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. cont
@Indigohue You're calling Sheol & Hades 'hell'. They're not hell, but your bible translated it hell, so you believe it's hell, but since you see that it's cast into the lake of fire, you state that it's therefore not the final hell.
It's not hell at all. It's where everyone goes when they die. The grave. The place of the dead. And Jesus went & preached to them & released them, which again is spiritual, but you only see the literal of Jesus 'going down' there & 'physically' releasing them.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire, described in Revelation, is the eternal place of punishment for the wicked and is properly called hell. This transfer from Sheol - Hades occurs immediately after the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15
In these particular verses “death refers to the physical component of the body and hell to the spiritual component of the unsaved.
@Indigohue There's NOTHING eternal about the lake of fire. It's not a literal place, but you can't see that so I'm wasting my time. It's not this actual place that exists in the recesses of your mind, called hell. The bible nowhere says that the lake of fire is hell, or that Sheol or Hades is hell.
The only 'place' is Gehenna. It's a very nice pretty place. You can go visit it.
It used to be a garbage dump where the fires burned the garbage & where men sacrificed babies in fire. Nice.
Jesus used this 'place' as imagery, showing God's righteous wrath & judgement on sin, as in 'death & the grave (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire.
As in, the last enemy to be defeted is death.
As in, oh death... where is your sting? Oh grave, where is your victory?
Is it to be feared? I'd say yes. Just my opinion. ; )
See, when you deny Hell as a literal place then you are launching a character assisnation against Jesus Himself. If we can't trust Jesus when He warned us of the fearful consequences of those who die in unbelief and sin, then we begin to question His authority and sincerity on everything .Although denying hell may seem a compassionate stance to take, it is a full frontal assault on God and His authority.
@Indi You're assumption that I'm disagreeing with Jesus is due to your belief in a literal hell and since I disagree with that, then I'm disagreeing with Jesus.
That's poor reasoning.
Here's what I believe. Jesus didn't teach a literal hell. What you believe is not what Jesus taught, but what the Church came to accept as truth & translators changed the meaning of words like Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo, & Gehenna, all to one word. HELL.
Mark 9 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Finally, who are we to put God on trial and question His sovereignty?
Isaiah 55:8-9, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
@Indi Never question God's sovereignty? Really? So whatever the bible says means it must be from God & we can't question it?
You don't even believe that.
If you had a daughter & she went to hell because God, IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY, decreed that she must be burned alive for all eternity, ARE YOU FREAKING TELLING ME THAT YOU'D BE PERFECTLY FINE WITH THAT & NOT QUESTION IT AT ALL????????
I would die for my daughter. No questions asked.
If she was in hell, I'd beg God to send me there instead.
Yes, you play a dangerous game when you question God's authority, because then you begin to redefine Him according to your own humanistic view of how He should act and think. You start putting Him on trial, instead of realizing that it is us who are on trial. That is why Jesus urged us to preach the gospel in the here and now.
If no one has ever heard the name of Jesus Christ, then they will be judged on the law that is written in their heart. cont
@Indigohue So you're perfectly fine with your family members going to hell, if God so decrees. There you are in heaven & your son or daughter, father or mother, are burning in fire & you're telling me that you're gonna be so happy, cause you went to heaven when you died?
If you say yes, then you're sick.
Therefore, hell is sick. Therefore, if God can live in heaven for all eternity while billions of people are burning in hell forever, then god is sick too.
You are angry at God, but He doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves. It's His wish that no one goes there, hence the urgency to preach the gospel in the here and now. All a person needs to do to be saved is call on the name of Jesus, repent and be given a new heart and mind through Him.
Pray for all those lost souls you know who willfully reject Christ, never give up trying to bring them to Jesus, it's what He commanded us to do.
@Indigohue I'm not angry at God at all. Your crazy belief that God doesn't send anyone to hell but we send ourselves there, but He doesn't want us to go there & is trying desperately to prevent it, is so laughable it's downright silly.
How christians can actually believe something that makes God into a weak dumb idiot, is beyond me.
You say you're not angry at God, but you question and mock His authority at every opportunity because it doesn't fit your humanistic view of how you think He should act.
God doesn't violate our free will, we can choose to reject Him or receive Him. Salvation is a choice, not a given
Their are many sins, but the greatest is that of unbelief.
@Lightmane321 John 13 - 8 it says "He that believeth on Him not, is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, & men loved darkness rather than light , because their deeds were evil.
God sends many things into our lives to stop us in our selfish ways, but if people willfully carry on sinning & rejecting Jesus, then as the bible says, they will spend an eternity separated from God
@Indigohue I agree with that verse. Here's the thing. Hell ISN'T in the bible.
Jesus NEVER spoke of it. Eternal Punishment isn't there either.
Rather, the scripture plainly declares that Jesus did die for everyone's sins & desires that ALL will be saved & that Jesus WILL DRAW all men to Himself and that ALL will be made alive in Christ & that through Christ righteousness & life are given to ALL. The last one is a paraphrase of Romans 5:18.
I don't know which Bible you are reading but both hell and eternal punishment are in mine. Yes I know those verses that Universalists like to pull out as evidence of their doctrine. It says Jesus DESIRES that all be saved, meaning yes He wants all men to come to repent and come to Him and that all that BELIEVE will be made alive in Him, it doesn't mean all will. Salvation is still a choice, if men die in sin and unbelief, then they will spend an eternity separated from God.
@Ind When your bible says the word hell, the word that the translators translated it from does not mean hell. It's a total mis-translation. Try one on me & I'll show you. (and I'm no scholar either). Same with the word eternal, forever, or everlasting. Try me.
I agree with you that no one gets saved until they come to a saving faith in Jesus.
But you're missing something. Not enough space here to explain & I don't want to make 10 posts here. lol
Also to get to the truth of the Bible we must read it in its entirety.
Ask yourself is the main message running through the whole Bible one that man must repent and turn in faith to God or is it that you can sin and believe in whatever you want?
Jesus' sacrifice covered our sins, but only the sins of those who experience a saving faith. If you are not “born again,” as Jesus said, then His blood will not cover our sins and you die to face an eternity separated from Him.
@In In its entirety. You are correct. Yes, we must repent & turn in faith to God. I agree. If you die in your sins you will NOT face an eternity separted from Jesus.
Jesus can save from the grave. He has & He will.
Hitler is going to be in Heaven with you for eternity. Get used to it.
So why do we need to repent and turn to Jesus if we are all saved? You are contradicting yourself. The Bible is quite clear about the fate of the wicked and unbelieving.
It's a popular fallacy that Jesus never spoke of hell and that the fear of hell began with Saint Paul. The truth is Jesus warned many times of the damnation of hell. The passages that Universalists cling to to support the heresy of "all will saved" are from Paul.
@Ind Salvation is through faith in Jesus only. I'm not contradicting myself. The Bible is quite clear about the fate of the wicked. They too will ultimately be reconciled (saved). It's not a popular fallacy that Jesus never spoke about hell. He never did. Not once. Show me 1 verse where he did & I'll explain it for you (& I'm not a scholar).
Jesus said 'when I am lifted up, I WILL DRAW ALL MEN unto myself'
Jesus will save everyone. There is no such thing as hell. Try me.
Here's 2 more verses which show Universal Salvation.
1 Timothy 4:10 "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe.
(did you notice that last part?)
Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to ALL MEN, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN, RESULTING in justification of life.
Two former atheists Howard Storm and Ian McCormack both had NDE experiences of hell. You might care to read their testimonies or perhaps you could write to them and call them liars.
@Ind Are you now saying that NDE's are totally reliable?
Show me where your bible says I'm wrong.
ALL unsaved people who die are not automatically saved. You keep hearing me say they are, but I've never said that. You're not listening very well, apparently.
ALL WILL be saved. Hitler WILL be saved.
Hitler is accountable for his actions, but he will not suffer for all eternity.
There isn't one verse in the bible that speaks of HELL.
I'm saying that 2 ex staunch atheists had a life changing experience They say there is a hell, they experienced it. I have listened to them both and I believe them. Perhaps you could write to them yourself and take up your disbelief up with them.
Sorry, but I've heard all these tired old arguments before from Universalists and they don't wash with me.
I Tim. 2:1-6 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks be made for ALL MEN, for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance."
You believe that God's WILL will NOT be done.
I believe that God's WILL will be done.
God will accomplish His will.
The scriptures are clear, but men suppress the truth. Keep studying.
That verse is not saying what you think it is. It means Jesus doesn't want anyone to perish, he desires that all people come to repentance, but that doesn't mean all will. He has still given everyone free will with which to accept or reject Him.
John 3-18 He that believeth on Him not, is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
@Ind Actually it IS saying what it says. If God 'desires' something, then God will bring it to pass. That's why this version rendered it 'God WILL HAVE all men to be saved'
He that believeth not is condemned already. Obviously, that's true also, but what is that persons eternal fate then?
Once you understand that, the rest will be easy for you.
All are 'born' under condemnation, as Romans 5:18 points out, thanks to Adam.
But Jesus WILL draw ALL MEN. Sorry you can't see it.
@Lightmane3. The true meaning of this scripture and others you quote becomes apparent when they are taken in context with the main theme that runs throughout the whole Bible. That man must repent and turn to Jesus.
God wills that all men come to Him, it’s His desire no one should perish, however that salvation is dependant on man’s free will and choice. Hence the need to preach the gospel and repent in the here and now.l
There is no verse in the Bible that says the sins of the wicked are forgiven in the afterlife or that they have a chance to repent in the afterlife.
Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men to die once, and then the judgment. Not a series of judgments, one judgment. There is also no verse that states the wicked get their names rewritten in the book of life, nor that God’s judgment is anything other than final and fixed.
Sorry, but it looks like contradiciton to me. You say salvation is through faith (meaning belief) in Jesus only, then in the next sentence you tell me everyone is ultimately reconciled. So why does anyone need faith in Jesus if all are saved?. Why even bother to preach the gospel when Hitler, Dr Mengele, Stalin, Attila the Hun, Nero and countless other evil despots will all have the same rewards.
That might be what you Bible preaches, but mine doesn't nor does God's word !
@Ind Sir or madam. Might I ask how old you are & do you study the bible or just believe what your pastor says? I see you refuse to take up my challenge by providing me ONE VERSE that speaks of hell.
God's word, the bible, proclaims that Jesus died to save all; that Jesus will draw all; that in Christ, ALL shall be made alive, that through one man's sin (Adam) death came upon ALL & through one man's righteousness (Christ), life came to ALL.
If you'd ever like to offer me biblical proof that you're right & I'm wrong, I'm listening, but if you insist on continuing to ignore my challenges & questions, then there's no need to continue, as you have no interest in what's true, but rather, what you believe to be true.
No, but I recognize a true man of God when I hear him. He speaks the real gospel of Jesus Christ, and what he preaches resonates with what I know in my heart to be true. It also backs up the scriptural word of God.
I think Universalists have just fallen for Satan's first lie when he said "God lies, you shall not die, but become Gods, being able to judge good from evil yourself"
@Ind Paul Washer teaches that babies are evil. That if they could, they'd kill anyone who took something from them & walk away with no remorse.
He teaches that God HATES all mankind, but chose to have mercy on a few & love them. Only those few Elect will be saved. God HATES everyone else because we are evil & God created hell so that all that is evil will be burned alive in literal fire for all eternity.
That's totally sick, but that's Calvinism & Paul is insane
You have made wrong assumptions about him concerning the elect and other things.I know because I've heard what he's said Too tired to debate now though, catch you later.
@Ind Ummm. Have you studied Calvinism? I've listened to Paul Washer. He's nuts & self-righteous too. I don't know where you get your info about Uni's believing Satan's lies in the garden.
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Salvation is found ONLY through faith in Jesus. There is no other name given under heaven whereby we MUST be saved.
I've not been indoctrinated by anyone. I'm not a Calvanist and I was unaware he was one. I do not agree with the doctrine of Calvinism, but he still preaches a good sermon on what a saving faith means.
I follow the gospel of Jesus Christ, all Christians should be led by the Holy Spirit within. Jesus said to Peter "Upon this rock I build my church" meaning the body of Christ should be made of people who realize for themselves & are not taught by anyone.cont
Doesn't the fact the you've tried so many doctrines indicate that you truly don't know what to believe?
I've studied all the facts, scriptures and arguments relating to Universalism and see it as one the devil’s more dangerous poisons because it is so subtle & appears so good to people on the surface. It's a belief that can give rise to complacency, it nullifies the importance of preaching the gospel and makes lost souls think they are saved when they are not!
@In Okay. First off, I haven't 'tried' so many doctrines. I've studied them. My beliefs changed over time as I acquired new truths. The bible also clearly teaches annihilationism.
About your free will gospel. It's pathetic, which is why I no longer believe it.
First, Jesus said in John 6:44 'No man can come to me unless the father draws him'. Romans chapter 9 clearly teaches Calvinism, so how can you like Paul Washer when he's a DEVOUT Calvinist. He totally disagrees with you.
and also, you're not dealing with the REAL ISSUE that proves that Uni is biblical.
And that is that HELL is NOT in the bible. It's a clear mis-translation. Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo & Gehenna are NOT HELL. Gehenna is a place on earth. You can go visit it. It's a very nice place now. It wasn't in Jesus' day.
Also, the idea of eternal punishment is also NOT in the bible.
Again, this is a CLEAR mis-translation. The word does not mean eternal, or everlasting, or forever, thus PROVING
that the punishment of the wicked doesn't last forever. One word translated eternal is aion or aionian. It refers to an age or ages & represents an indeterminate period of time. Jonah was in the belly of the great fish FOREVER. A CLEAR mis-translation. There are MANY verses in the OT where the word was translated FOREVER & they're all clearly referring to a finite period of time.
Calvinism: God COULD save all, but He won't. He hates them. He will only save those whom He chose to save. The only people who believe are those whom God gives the ability to believe. No one else CAN.
Arminianism: (this is you). God WANTS to save everyone, but He CAN'T. He's not powerful enough. He has no way of doing it, otherwise He would. He's stuck & the best He could do was give us the opportunity for eternal life. Otherwise, we'll just have to be burned alive in fire forever.
God CAN save ALL. He WANTS to save ALL, so He WILL save ALL.
God WILL accomplish His WILL. Thy WILL be done ON EARTH, as it is in Heaven.
Our WILL cannot override God's will.
We can rebel all we want (our will) but God will bring us to a saving faith.
The unsaved will be punished (suffer loss), but God will have mercy on them & not punish them forever. This is clearly taught in scripture for the punishment isn't eternal. God will bring all to salvation.
You are preaching heresy. There's no point debating this further because you cannot see. . Yes Jesus died for the whole of mankind, but we must receive salvation whilst we our in our earthly body.
All the lost and will know unequivocally after death that Jesus is Lord and Saviour but because of unbelief their sins are not covered by His blood and they will go into eternity with their sins. There is no scripture saying that you get a second chance to repent .
.Universalism is making a mocking of the gospel of Jesus Christ, because it falsely says even evil tyrants like Stalin and Hitler, who murdered millions will still one day enjoy the fruits of eternal life, after a dose of punishment. So why do we need faith or Jesus just let the punishment purify us. It's nonsense.
Lets just respectfully agree to disagree. Absolutely nothing you can say will sway me from my beliefs and my trust in God's word.
@Ind The only heresy is the belief that God would actually create a hell where BILLIONS of lost souls will be literaly burned alive in literal fire for all eternity.
How you can even fathom how that makes sense is beyond me.
How you could even look forward to heaven, knowing this, is beyond me.
I'd NEVER live in heaven, if that were the case.
How can I live in Heaven while my lost brothers & sisters are burning in hell?
I can't. I won't. I'm sorry you can't see how horrible that is.
Once again, you are back where you started at, questioning God's authority and sovereignity. Judging Him by your own humanistic standards.
Look at how Universalists have fallen for Satan's seducing lie "God lies, you shall not DIE, but become Gods, being able to judgeGOOD from EVIL YOURSELF
Do not exalt the teachings of a mortal likeGary Amirault over the word of God Almighty.
Adhere to this false doctrine if you want, but don't keep trying to convince me of it's validity.
@Ind The punishment doesn't pay for our sins. Jesus paid for them. Hitler will end up in heaven with you & me, because Jesus loves Him & paid for His sins too.
Repent and have faith in Jesus and you will be saved.
Don’t repent and don’t believe in Jesus and you will still be saved (eventually).
Thus you have not only called Jesus a liar, but you have rendered the preaching of the gospel totally redundant.
God has made it crystal clear that who ever dies in their sins will end up in eternity separated from Him. These are His words and if you don't like it, then that's just too bad.
@Indigohue Show me ONE VERSE that says that if we die in our sins we will spend ETERNITY separated from God? You can't, because there isn't ANY verse which teaches that.
Do people who die in their sins, die in a state of being separated from God? Sure, I could buy that. That seems to be a reasonable conclusion, based on scripture. But I don't know EXACTLY what happens to unbelievers at death & neither do you, but I do know that Jesus DIED for them.
What you are failing to see is that Jesus SAID that He would draw ALL MEN to Himself. That Jesus is the savior of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY to those who believe (what r u going to do with this verse?)
2 Peter 3:9. Do you really believe that God will not accomplish what He desires?
God DESIRES that all be saved. Therefore, ALL WILL BE SAVED.
How weak is your God? How Loving is your God? How Good is your God?
Mine WILL accomplish that which He desires. He CAN'T FAIL!
To sum it up. If Jesus did die for everyone & God desires that everyone be saved, then IF everyone doesn't ultimately get saved, then God failed to accomplish what He set out to do.
God won't fail. He can't. It's impossible for God to fail in saving everyone.
It's therefore inevitable that everyone will ultimately get saved, for God will save them. Have faith.
The bible says that EVERY knee will bow & confess that Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God. Let's celebrate this glorious truth. Even those who die in their sins will, one day, confess that Jesus is Lord (on their knees).
I know how you interpret this verse. Let me give you a much better interpretation.
'Everyone' on their knees just confessed Jesus is Lord. 'Everyone' just got saved.
2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but wanting to have their EARS TICKLED, they will accumulate for themselves TEACHERS IN ACCORDANCE TO THEIR OWN DESIRES, and will TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH and will TURN ASIDE TO MYTHS."
@Indigohue NOPE. Universalism was taught by the early church. Pagan Doctrines brought the belief of eternal torment into Christianity and a corrupt Latin text, translated by Jerome.
It wasn't until 553AD that Universalism was condemned as heresy, by the Half-Pagan Emperor Justinian.
You can’t assess what is true by personal feelings., otherwise you reinterpret the Bible to suit a personal morality.Jesus warns us of false prophets and teachings . This would not be necessary if all are ultimately saved.. If God could and does save everyone regardless, then why did Christ have to die in the first place?
Why bother with Jesus at all, do what you want and you still inherit eternal life.
If fundamental Christianity is wrong, then no one has lost anything, but if Universalism is wrong ,( and it most certainly is) then its heretical doctrine is consigning multitudes of sinners and unbelievers to an eternal punishment separated from God, by falsely telling them they will be saved . Now that truly is evil. It’s a deception from the pits of hell itself.
@In If fundamental Christianity is right, then God is a horrible evil monster who burns His own children (whom He loves) in eternal flames, even though He doesn't want to.
If Univ. is right, then God REALLY IS Loving, Kind, Merciful, JUST, Wise, Holy, Sovereign, & Good.
ONLY true faith in Jesus saves. NOTHING but this faith will ever save anyone.
What must I do to be saved, said the jailer?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
By God's own revelation to us, there is no God without hell. Too bad you choose to exalt yourself above the Almighty by calling Him a liar. An attack on hell is an attack on the God who created it, and the Scriptures that describe it.
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." 2 Thessalonians 1:9
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5.29).
You are doubting what happens at death because you are soaking up false doctrine. God's word is quite clear.
Second Thessalonians 1:9 says (KJV), "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord..." The Greek text says, olethron aionion, "eonian extermination." The word does not imply extermination beyond recovery, for it is limited to the eons by the adjective modifying it. The word is used at 1 Cor. 5:5, where it is recorded that Paul delivered "such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
There is no word in all of Scripture which even suggests annihilation, eternal destruction, loss or death from which there is no recovery, or a condition from which salvation is impossible. Always such terms as "destruction," "perish," "be lost," and "death," are relative to a period of time during an eon or during the eons.
Yes, I copied & pasted this from 'An Analytical study of words, chapter 16'
If God consigns unrepentant unbelieving sinners to an ETERNITY of conscious torment, then God is unjust, unforgiving, unmerciful, unloving, unholy & evil.
The same words in both Greek and English used to describe the future punishment of the wicked are also used to describe God, the Spirit, salvation, and the kingdom, so if punishment isn't eternal neither is God, the spirit or the life of the believer.
@In Hi again. These are good points you're raising. The thing is, Aion & Aionian don't mean eternal. Apparently the Greek word that actually does mean eternal, is Aidios (there's a joke there, but I'll ignore it for now). lol
So in speaking of God & the spirit & the life of the believer, the words mean eons, or ages. What comes after that? Don't know, but clearly God transcends the eons.
By the way. I do think you've made some excellent points.
I'm still learning, but in truth, I could accept Annihilation, as God would be perfectly JUST in destroying His creation. How could that be unjust, in any way? I could even accept eternal separation, provided that the person actually didn't want God & wanted to be where they were instead, even if it was 'unpleasant'.
There are circumstances where I could accept this, but I don't believe that God will do it.
@Lightmane321 Eternal separation would be just as worse. You clearly haven't been separated from Him, so you can't imagine what an eternity of that would be. If eternal separation from God was true, it would be endless, excruciating suffering with no way to commit suicide...
If hell isnt real then Jesus Christ is a liar Matt 23:15/ 25:46, 33, Luke 16:23, Mark 9:43, 45, 47 and so are Peter and James 3:6, 2 Pet 2:4. And pretty much all of Revelation goes out of the window, we cant pick and choose wat we believe
Yes they are!
UniversalismRefuted 2 months ago
p.s. Paul ADMITTED to being a heretic... can't be all that bad.
GladeSwope 3 months ago
You really ought to be thankful for separation of church and state!
GladeSwope 3 months ago
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Great video brother!
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife?
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 4 months ago
Started.Thanks,Barry.
barrychristianson 7 months ago
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Ha. The "under faggots" line struck me. But in context, he used the term correctly.
JonWRowe 9 months ago
Ha. The "under faggots" like struck me. But in context, he used the term correctly.
JonWRowe 9 months ago
Historically and Biblically, it appears to me highly unlikely that a literal Hell doesn't exist in some form. But I do agree with my universalist brethren that it is not likely a place of eternal torment. I too have a very difficult time reconciling the idea of God as truly just and merciful and also tormenting human souls forever and ever with fire and brimstone.
Pacisdiligo 10 months ago
Thank you. This is a word in due season.
I take your encouragement seriously so that the gospel may be preached.Barry
barrychristianson 10 months ago
If you go to the tentmaker777 channel you'll find a lot of encouragement and information. If you key word tentmaker ministries you'l find a lot of good info there too as well at lovewins with a us extension. It's a new site dedicated to spreading the truly good news.
tentmaker777 10 months ago
As far as my personality profiling God Himself, and saying that it's according to my views, you're totally wrong there too. It's according to your views, not mine.
My views are in line with what scripture declares about God. Namely, that He's Holy, Sovereign, Just, Righteous, Compassionate, Loving, Merciful & Good.
Your views have Him never showing mercy to the masses.
You purposely avoided many of the verses I quoted.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@dk Since you have this wealth of knowledge that we're not privy too, apparently, could you please let me know what this hell, that you believe in, actually is, & what happens to people who end up there? Thanks dude.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@dkarnish name calling? Where? didn't think I could what? wouldn't what? can't what?
He mentioned it the most? Nope. Jesus never spoke about hell. Not once.
You forgive "me" for "my" comments?
Your self righteousness keeps showing dude. Do you think you're holier then others? It sure seems that way.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@dkarnish I love how you interpreted those verses. Your words said it all. Have a nice day dude. I'll leave you with your delusions of a God who causes the masses to be tortured for all eternity & you actually think that's just & want to worship such a sick evil being.
Here's one clue though, just for you. Jesus NEVER spoke of hell. Not once. The bible NEVER talks about hell.
Hell is a myth. It doesn't exist. You've been lied to & deceived. God isn't sick & evil.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
"In this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for ALL people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And He shall destroy on this mountain "the surface of the covering" cast over ALL nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from ALL faces." (Isaiah 25:6-8)
"ALL the families of the earth shall be blessed." (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)
Lightmane321 11 months ago
But I know I know. I'm misunderstanding these verses. They don't mean what they appear to say right? I'm taking them out of context right?
They don't mean that God will actually be merciful to everyone in the end. No. It couldn't mean that. God be merciful to everyone? How silly that would be huh? Please. LOL
Why heaven wouldn't be heaven if everyone ends up there. Right?
Lightmane321 11 months ago
"Through the Lord's mercies we are NOT consumed, because His compassions FAIL NOT. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness." (Lam. 3:21-24)
"The Lord will NOT cast off forever. Though He causes grief, YET He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies." (Lam. 3:31-32)
"For I will NOT contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, and the souls which I have made." (Isaiah 57:16)
Lightmane321 11 months ago
God "reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him." (Isaiah 65:1)
"The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to ALL, and His tender mercies are over ALL His works. "ALL Your works shall praise you", 0 Lord." (Psalm 145:8-10)
"0 You Who hear prayer, to you "ALL flesh will come". Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them." (Psalm 65:2-4)
Lightmane321 11 months ago
God is "gracious in ALL His works." (Psalm 145:17)
"The EARTH is the Lord's and ALL its fullness, the world and THOSE WHO DWELL therein." (Psalm 24:1)
"ALL the kings of the earth "shall praise you", 0 Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth." (Psalm 138:4)
"Through the greatness of your power "your enemies" shall submit themselves to you. ALL the earth "shall worship You" and sing praises to you." (Psalm 66:3-4)
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@dkarnish When Gods JUDGMENTS are IN THE EARTH, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
I can't wait for judgment day. It's gonna be a good day.
Oh wait. I'm interpreting this verse incorrectly aren't I. I really have to stop being so defensive.
"ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him" (Psalm 86:9)
Oh wait. I must be taking this verse "out of context" right? It surely doesn't correlate with Isaiah.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
Christian universalism is quite simple:
God desires to have all men be saved
AND
God will ultimately achieve all His desires
Therefore ultimately all will be saved. That doesn't mean we don't reap what we sow nor does it mean some don't reject God for a time. But in the end every knee will bow and every tongue swear allegiance.
It really is good news for all men like Luke 2:10 says.
You should check out the articles on tentmaker. This stuff has been investigated thoroughly.
boom72erang 11 months ago
@boom72erang
Sounds really sweet. Too bad it's not biblical.
peterpulpitpounder 11 months ago
@dkarnish Hey dude. You're the one who started in with the attitude, not me. I'm just giving you a taste of your own medicine, mixed in with sarcasm, of course. Like I said. I wouldn't waste my time debating someone like you. It would be pointless to do such. Enjoy your beliefs.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@Lightmane321 proved what, and how, I haven't even tried to argue that God wouldn't accomplish all he desires. You came up with this one on your own, If you are incapable of having a proper discussion thats your issue, if you turn to ridicule and name calling you got the issue. I'm not afraid to discuss it with you and I won't go running to someone else to prop myself up in my conversation.
dkarnish 11 months ago
Lightmane321 funny, these people and this garbage, so much for displaying the love of Christ and the true message of the gospel. Is this how you feel about every one who doesn't believe or see things the way you do? Is this how you get people to want to show what you have and for them to want it. Wow, whats the point? Jesus may not be judging me but boy you certainly have. I want to run out and tell every one about how wonderful those in Christian Universalism are. Thank you for the warm welcome
dkarnish 11 months ago
Dkarnish, do you give non-believers a loving welcome when you introduce they only hope as one who is powerless to save most of mankind? When you repeated quote the darkest part of the Bible, verses that have been mistranslated and you don't study to see this is so, do you mislead God's people. Did Jesus rebuke those who through their self-righteousness become blind leading the blind into pits of ignorance? Are you playing the hypocrite here? You can dish it out but you can't take it. Are you
tentmaker777 11 months ago
Do you see how many people are debating this? I KNOW i cannot convince you, or prove to you....IT is not my job to do that...I understand your argument that people could do what they want, and end up still in heaven...IT is natural to find this unfair, but Matthew 20 proves the same point of those that object to GOD giving life to all. As in ADam ALL DIE, in CHRIST ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE. That's bible. Take care.
nestosolo 11 months ago
@dkarnish Universalism is what the bible BOLDLY PROCLAIMS, but you have no idea what it actually means & even if I showed it to you, you'd just say that I'm wrong & that I've proven nothing, so I won't bother.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@dkarnish get out of hell free trump card ROFL!!! OMG!!!
Lightmane321 11 months ago
Hey Gary. I see what you mean now. It really is INSANE what these people actually believe about God & they get this garbage from their bibles too. WOW!
Lightmane321 11 months ago
I did learn that the word used for 'punishment' in Matthew 25:46 is "KOLASIN aionion" and is the same word to make a tree more frutiful by pruning it. God's end result for lake of fire is 'correction' because it is His glory that every knee and every tongue will confess in worship to the Lord Jesus. I'm not debating this...i have much more studying to do.
nestosolo 11 months ago
@nestosolo exactly dude. but don't try explaining that to these people. they'll swear you didn't get that from the bible or you're not interpretating that correctly (translation - it doesn't agree with what we believe so it's a lie - LOL)
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@nestosolo Notice how he keeps harping on the phrase "prove it" LOL
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@dkarnish Even if i consider the possibility of Universalism to be true...(and I am reading, and see many solid points in the bible that may teach in the END that death will be fully abolished)///But the way you explain it is incorrect to what i see in the bible...God didnt look into time to see who would believe, or just 'know' because he is all knowing...GOD chose certain people to have life in THIS age and the AGE TO COME. These are the elect.
nestosolo 11 months ago
@nestosolo *God didn't look into time to see who would believe, or just "know" because he is knowing... God chose certain people to have life in THIS age and the AGE TO COME. These are the elect."
*Snort* A Calvinist... What did you expect from him, guys? They believe that only a selected few will be saved and that God will eternally torture 99% of mankind, EVEN unborn babies and the mentally ill. Calvinists are sick and Calvinism is of the devil...
Cutie9326 9 months ago
@nestosolo Just so you know, Calvinist, the elect is predestined, everyone else is destined...
Cutie9326 9 months ago
The wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire, and that by the assistance of angels. These angels will not be taking anyone to some heavenly rehab center for correctional training. The context is punishment not refinement.
And the result? "Then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of their Father."
With the wicked extracted and eliminated, the people of God will be unhindered in their service and worship of God.
Now that's good preaching!
peterpulpitpounder 11 months ago
You say: With the wicked extracted and eliminated...
Gee, where have I read terminology like this before? Oh, yes, Hitler, Stalin, Mao tze tung, Pol Pot, The Roman Catholic Church, Netynyahu, Golda Meir, George Bush. Yes, tyrants and elitists of all types speak like this. But how does the slain lamb on the throne with its throat cut in Revelation speak?! "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of! For the Son of man did not come to destroy men's lives but to SAVE THEM!
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777
No, the terminology is Biblical. Oh, that's right, you only read those portions that make you happy. Remember the tares and wheat, good fish and bed, sheep and goats? God will "extract" all things that offend from His kingdom. He will use angels to do it. Those are the very words of Matthew 13. And these wicked, offensive people will be cast into a furnace of fre. It's right there in the Bible.
peterpulpitpounder 11 months ago
I don't expect the guy who delights in pounding his pulpit to go for a look, but every single verses the pounder brings up here has been thoroughly examined by those who embrace the Savior of the World. On the Tentmaker site is a page called Scholars Corner and there are entire books dealing with these verses the pounder just loves and probably feeds his congregation using the most hellish translation of all, the KJV. Bible Threatenings Explained and The Bible Hell are two good books to read.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 The Bible is the best commentary on itself, reading studies by men outside of it to put your trust into is a mistake. You only present one side of the coin, you talk of God's Love for the world but you fail to mention that God(the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit) who is perfect Love, is also perfect Justice. You cannot have one without the other, or God would be denying Himself, which HE can't do. God loves fallen sinful man, but GOD HATES SIN, and He promises to deal with it.
dkarnish 11 months ago
No, I don't present one side of the coin. God is LOVE. That is His nature. Out of that love comes His mercy, forgiveness, holiness, justness, sovereignty, power, etc. Holiness and justice is not contrary to His love. " "When God's judgements are in the earth, it will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" "Mercy shall triumph over judgment." James 2:13 You are in unbelief, that is why you can't see what is plain. What kind of church do you attend?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Your right, you don't present any sides of the coin. You state justness but you OBVIOUSLY don't know the meaning of that word. God is just BECAUSE HE IS HOLY. The imperfection of sin and rebellion cannot exist in the presence of a righteous and holy God. Those in the world, who reject Jesus completely will NEVER learn righteousness. Revelation 16:11 and they cursed the God of heaven for their pains and sores. BUT THEY REFUSED TO REPENT OF ALL THEIR EVIL DEEDS. Your wrong once again
dkarnish 11 months ago
A person who contrasts God's Holiness and Justice with His mercy and forgiveness is a person who does not know that God's nature and character is LOVE and His holiness and mercy is NOT a contradiction or opposite to His holiness and justice. They are one. A person who does not know God's love does not realize that His justice may in fact BE mercy. "Mercy shall triumph over judgment." James 2:13. People enamoured with sending people to Hell really have vengence in their heart, not love.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 James 2:13 For He shall have judgement without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy REJOICETH* against judgement. (*Greek here is KAUCHAOMAI , to boast, to glory, is rendered to rejoice or rejoicing against, it in no way implies 'triumph' unless you are saying Greek isn't Greek anymore) So does Jesus have vengeance in His heart when he speaks of people being cast into hell? Is He enamored with sending to people there when HE speaks of it? Afraid to keep my comments posted?
dkarnish 11 months ago
You are a spammer. This is NOT a discussion board, it is a place to leave a comment. Period. You abuse the privileges here. Regarding your intense desire to paint God as awefulas you possibly can (because you do the word of the devil), you neglect the higher view of God expressed plainly in the Scriptures: Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are
tentmaker777 11 months ago
He hates sin in you. So will He torture you foever because you are incapable of stopping? Please think this through before answering. If you take a moment, you will see your double standards and hypocrisy and then Jesus can heal you.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Jesus dealt with the sin for all mankind on the cross once and for all, but if a person denies the Holy Spirit, Who leads people to salvation in Jesus, they are rejecting the very forgiveness and sacrifice that Jesus paid for them, the penaly for their sins. If the choose to reject this salvation, how can they, unforgiven, go into the presence of a perfect and HOLY God? Its simple, they cannot, because they have rejected the only mediator between themselves and the Father.
dkarnish 11 months ago
friend, I assure you, you are far from perfect and holy. If God can clean you up of all your self-righteousness and unjustness, he can clean up a prostitute or alcoholic. Death does not stop Jesus. That's what you don't get. Jesus has the keys to death and hades/hell. He loves all mankind. What do you think He is going to do with those keys? Open your heart to God's love for you my friend. Your working to be holy will never cut it, it's all about grace. Learn how to give it to others.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Jesus spoke more about wrath then he did about love, now why would the Lord take so much time to speak about something that was never going to happen in the first place? Why would the Holy Spirit, who penned the very words of scripture go to such length to speak about something that wasn't something to be concerned about? Wouldn't He be wasting a lot of words on a moot point? Why do you call Jesus SAVIOR if he hasn't really saved you from anything?
dkarnish 11 months ago
Many preacher say Jesus spoke more on hell than heaven. But when one goes to the concordance, they find that is a very big lie. So is your statement about wrath. I suggest you stop quoting lying traditions and begin to study to show yourself approved. What did Jesus save me from? If you google testimony Gary Amirault you will find out what Jesus saved me from. And if you open your heart, He will save you from all the fears and pain that are evident in your writings here. How old are you?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Its funny, Rome doesn't want its followers to even read the Holy Bible, it has murdered translators all through history, the mormons teach their followers that the Holy Bible has been corrupted and can only be correctly translated by them. The Watchtower Society changes words in the Holy Bible in their translation but won't reveal the name of those who did the translation. This is no exception, you focus so much on your position of universalism that you miss the gospel message.
dkarnish 11 months ago
It is funny that you don't know what you are talking about, even in the tradition your family belongs to. The Mormon church uses the King James Bible. I've never been a Jehovah's witness and do not use their translation. You side step the real issue and that is "Jesus IS the Savior of the world" because my Bible and heart tell me so. That is good news. Those whose hearts are filled with fear cannot receive such good news. So the question, is, dkarnish, what's the source of your fear?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
Growing up calvanist it now makes sense.
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
Hey Gary. I've been meaning to ask you. In the debate with Jerry, you brought up the issue that 4 of the 6 theological schools in the early church taught Universalism & Jerry immediately said that you were wrong & you both said nothing more.
Why didn't that issue continue? Why did Jerry say you were wrong?
If this is historical fact, then why doesn't this come out more?
Lightmane321 1 year ago
We have some of that info on our web site, Tentmaker Ministries. Several authors I have in my library have quoted such, including Canon F.W. Farrar of the Church of English.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
This quote is also from the article.
We do not deny that God will indeed judge the whole world, nor do we wish to make light of His judgments. We are challenging the belief that His judgment on sin and unbelief is eternal torment/Hell and never-ending separation from God. Certainly, Jesus spent a lot of his ministry warning people to repent or reap the consequences, (particularly "Gehenna.") But could we be reading more into His warnings than He originally intended?
Lightmane321 1 year ago
Does the bible say nothing about salvation beyond the grave?
Deut 32:39, Hosea 13:11-14, Lam 3:31-33, 1 Samuel 2:6, 2 Samuel 14:14, Matthew 5:25-26,
If Hell is a place of no escape, why did the early church teach Jesus went to Hell (Hades), preached to them and led captivity captive? Eph 4:8-9, Psalm 68:18, 1 Peter 3:18-20
If the grave settled the matter forever, why did the early Christians offer up prayers for the dead? Why were they baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29)
Lightmane321 1 year ago
If Hell lasts forever, why the Psalmist confidently speak again and again about being rescued from it (sheol)? (Psalms 16:10, 30:2-3, Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 116:3-8, 139:8).
If Hell is real, how can Solomon teach that the spirit of man will return to the God Who gave it? (Ecc 12:7).
This is all taken from the article 'Honest Questions and Answers about Hell'
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321 You need to read the whole chapter of Corinthians 15 to understand exactly what Paul was teaching, if you do you will see Paul is answering those who say that there is no resurrection of the dead and that Jesus was never resurrected. If this was true then all who believed in Jesus and had been baptized were still dead in their sins and that they had come out of the water just as dead in their sins as when they went down into it. Basically they were doing something pointless.
dkarnish 11 months ago
@Lightmane321 Jesus preached the Gospel to those who had never had a chance to hear it before he came into the world. Jesus said the Gospel would be preached unto the ends of the earth, so every one will have a chance to hear the gospel. Those who existed before God Himself came incarnate (Jesus) had never had a chance to hear the gospel, Jesus preached it to them, if He had not they would not understand fully that the Lord provided them the gift of salvation through Jesus death & resurrection.
dkarnish 11 months ago
@dkarnish You're like most people. You think you know what Universalism teaches, but you haven't a clue.
But thanks for the info. Enjoy worshipping a god who will fail to save those that he wants to save & will allow them instead to be tormented for all eternity. Enjoy worshipping that.
I'll worship the God who's all powerful & all knowing & who desires that all men be saved.
That God won't fail to accomplish that which He desires. He can't.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@Lightmane321 back up your position by scripture please, its easy to state something without backing it up. God doesn't fail anybody, you obviously refuse to see God for who the Holy Bible state He is. God is perfect in every way, perfect Love, perfect Truth, perfect Light, and perfect Justice. But what you also don't understand about God's nature is that he is perfectly HOLY, so how can imperfect finite fallen men who don't accept what Jesus did on the cross exist in God's HOLY presence.
dkarnish 11 months ago
@dkarnish "But what you also don't understand about God's nature is that he is perfectly HOLY, so how can imperfect finite fallen men who don't accept what Jesus did on the cross exist in God's HOLY presence."
Like I said. You have no idea what you're talking about. But nice try.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"But what you also don't understand about God's nature is that he is perfectly HOLY, so how can imperfect finite fallen men who don't accept what Jesus did on the cross exist in God's HOLY presence."
But because I'm such a sweetie, I'll give you a little hint. They WILL ACCEPT what Jesus did on the cross.
Study your bible & you'll learn this. Then you'll be happy too & you'll rejoice at such glorious good news.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@Lightmane321 Ok explain why I have no idea what I am talking about, you keep saying but don't ever offer an explanation.
'Conviction without investigation in the height of ignorance' Albert Einstein
dkarnish 11 months ago
@Lightmane321 You obviously don't know or read the Holy Bible(all of it by the way not just the parts that support your position), if you did you would see it for yourself and then you would have to make a choice. If I haven't got a clue then why don't you enlighten me then, using the Holy Bible to back up your views. WE both know, you cannot, you can grab bits and pieces, and try to state that words have been misunderstood or mistranslated, but you will not be able to prove Universalism.
dkarnish 11 months ago
EVERY PERSON WHOM CHRIST DIED FOR WILL GO TO HEAVEN....100% FOR SURE. He obtained eternal redemption for His people. BUT this does not mean he died for every person. Hell is real. Christ said to fear him who can destroy both body AND soul in hell. Those that don't believe the gospel will die in their sins and be cast into the lake of fire. All who believe a false gospel will be condemned. Christ died for his sheep only. THe elect, predestined from the foundations of the world.
nestosolo 1 year ago
What's amazing to me is that people think Universalism is heresy.
The idea that God loves everyone & sent Jesus to pay for everyone's sins & that through Jesus, everyone will ultimately be saved & live in Heaven.
If that's heresy, then I'm a true heretic. Praise God. Praise Jesus who saves ALL.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
Universalism is a FALSE doctrine! Those who preach it are deceiving people.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue No it's not. It's what the bible proclaims. Teaching that people will burn in hell for all eternity is a FALSE doctrine & those who preach it are deceiving people.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
The Bible doesn't even come close to saying that all will be saved.
Belief in hell isn't a requirement to end up there. Oh, and if you have concrete, unequivical evidence that hell is not real or eternal provide it, until then I'll believe the word of God.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue You don't believe the word of God. You believe your english translation of the word of God, which came from men with pre-conceived beliefs that came from traditions of men.
Many bibles today do not contain the words 'hell' or 'everlasting or eternal punishment'. That's because honest translators didn't let tradition prevent them from translating those words correctly.
Do a word study on the word aion & aionian & olam & others.
Hell is a myth. You've been duped by tradition.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
In Luke 12:5 Jesus says “But I will show you whom you should fear. Fear Him, who after the killing of the body has the power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him.
If hell were just the grave, what would we have to fear and why would we need to be saved.
The last words of some famous atheists attest to the fact that on their deathbed they suddenly realised that they had made a fearful error and sensed that only an eternity of separation from God awaited them.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indi In Luke 12:5, the word that our english bibles translated hell is 'Gehenna'. I'll assume you know what Jesus was referring to. A frightful image, to be sure, but there's nothing in the bible which says that people who are 'thrown' into it (which is symbolism) will literally be burned alive for all eternity, despite our english words to the contrary.
This imagery that Jesus used has to do with (YES), God's wrath on sin.
God's 'wrath' is not forever. Sin & death will be destroyed.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
However, thanks for taking the time to challenge me. If you prove me wrong, then I've been corrected & have more truth & less error. If you prove me right, then you've got more truth & less error.
That's a 'win' 'win'. Thanks.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
That's your belief and interpretation, not mine.
Rev 20 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire.
The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:47-50
This isn't symbolism, it's fact,unless of course Jesus was a liar.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indi You're right dude. The Book of Revelation isn't symbolism. It's all literal fact. That sea of glass & that beast with 7 heads & 10 horns. All fact. And if someone says it's symbolism, well... that's just their interpretation. Right! Got it.
How about this one Indi "Our God IS a CONSUMING FIRE"
It's gotta be literal right?
"Death & Hell were cast into the lake of fire"
HELL is cast into the lake of fire? HUH? It's literal, right?
Give me a break.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
In the Old Testament, when a person died their physical body went into the grave, (Job 21:13), but their spirit went to Sheol –Hades. Sheol is not the final Hell of Scripture
Rev 20 "And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. cont
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue You're calling Sheol & Hades 'hell'. They're not hell, but your bible translated it hell, so you believe it's hell, but since you see that it's cast into the lake of fire, you state that it's therefore not the final hell.
It's not hell at all. It's where everyone goes when they die. The grave. The place of the dead. And Jesus went & preached to them & released them, which again is spiritual, but you only see the literal of Jesus 'going down' there & 'physically' releasing them.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire, described in Revelation, is the eternal place of punishment for the wicked and is properly called hell. This transfer from Sheol - Hades occurs immediately after the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15
In these particular verses “death refers to the physical component of the body and hell to the spiritual component of the unsaved.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue There's NOTHING eternal about the lake of fire. It's not a literal place, but you can't see that so I'm wasting my time. It's not this actual place that exists in the recesses of your mind, called hell. The bible nowhere says that the lake of fire is hell, or that Sheol or Hades is hell.
The only 'place' is Gehenna. It's a very nice pretty place. You can go visit it.
It used to be a garbage dump where the fires burned the garbage & where men sacrificed babies in fire. Nice.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
Jesus used this 'place' as imagery, showing God's righteous wrath & judgement on sin, as in 'death & the grave (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire.
As in, the last enemy to be defeted is death.
As in, oh death... where is your sting? Oh grave, where is your victory?
Is it to be feared? I'd say yes. Just my opinion. ; )
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
See, when you deny Hell as a literal place then you are launching a character assisnation against Jesus Himself. If we can't trust Jesus when He warned us of the fearful consequences of those who die in unbelief and sin, then we begin to question His authority and sincerity on everything .Although denying hell may seem a compassionate stance to take, it is a full frontal assault on God and His authority.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indi You're assumption that I'm disagreeing with Jesus is due to your belief in a literal hell and since I disagree with that, then I'm disagreeing with Jesus.
That's poor reasoning.
Here's what I believe. Jesus didn't teach a literal hell. What you believe is not what Jesus taught, but what the Church came to accept as truth & translators changed the meaning of words like Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo, & Gehenna, all to one word. HELL.
I believe what Jesus taught. Jesus is Lord.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
Mark 9 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Finally, who are we to put God on trial and question His sovereignty?
Isaiah 55:8-9, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indi Never question God's sovereignty? Really? So whatever the bible says means it must be from God & we can't question it?
You don't even believe that.
If you had a daughter & she went to hell because God, IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY, decreed that she must be burned alive for all eternity, ARE YOU FREAKING TELLING ME THAT YOU'D BE PERFECTLY FINE WITH THAT & NOT QUESTION IT AT ALL????????
I would die for my daughter. No questions asked.
If she was in hell, I'd beg God to send me there instead.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
Yes, you play a dangerous game when you question God's authority, because then you begin to redefine Him according to your own humanistic view of how He should act and think. You start putting Him on trial, instead of realizing that it is us who are on trial. That is why Jesus urged us to preach the gospel in the here and now.
If no one has ever heard the name of Jesus Christ, then they will be judged on the law that is written in their heart. cont
.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue So you're perfectly fine with your family members going to hell, if God so decrees. There you are in heaven & your son or daughter, father or mother, are burning in fire & you're telling me that you're gonna be so happy, cause you went to heaven when you died?
If you say yes, then you're sick.
Therefore, hell is sick. Therefore, if God can live in heaven for all eternity while billions of people are burning in hell forever, then god is sick too.
The whole thing is evil
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
You are angry at God, but He doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves. It's His wish that no one goes there, hence the urgency to preach the gospel in the here and now. All a person needs to do to be saved is call on the name of Jesus, repent and be given a new heart and mind through Him.
Pray for all those lost souls you know who willfully reject Christ, never give up trying to bring them to Jesus, it's what He commanded us to do.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue I'm not angry at God at all. Your crazy belief that God doesn't send anyone to hell but we send ourselves there, but He doesn't want us to go there & is trying desperately to prevent it, is so laughable it's downright silly.
How christians can actually believe something that makes God into a weak dumb idiot, is beyond me.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
You say you're not angry at God, but you question and mock His authority at every opportunity because it doesn't fit your humanistic view of how you think He should act.
God doesn't violate our free will, we can choose to reject Him or receive Him. Salvation is a choice, not a given
Their are many sins, but the greatest is that of unbelief.
cont
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Lightmane321 John 13 - 8 it says "He that believeth on Him not, is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, & men loved darkness rather than light , because their deeds were evil.
God sends many things into our lives to stop us in our selfish ways, but if people willfully carry on sinning & rejecting Jesus, then as the bible says, they will spend an eternity separated from God
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue I agree with that verse. Here's the thing. Hell ISN'T in the bible.
Jesus NEVER spoke of it. Eternal Punishment isn't there either.
Rather, the scripture plainly declares that Jesus did die for everyone's sins & desires that ALL will be saved & that Jesus WILL DRAW all men to Himself and that ALL will be made alive in Christ & that through Christ righteousness & life are given to ALL. The last one is a paraphrase of Romans 5:18.
Read it for yourself. Would u like more verses?
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
I don't know which Bible you are reading but both hell and eternal punishment are in mine. Yes I know those verses that Universalists like to pull out as evidence of their doctrine. It says Jesus DESIRES that all be saved, meaning yes He wants all men to come to repent and come to Him and that all that BELIEVE will be made alive in Him, it doesn't mean all will. Salvation is still a choice, if men die in sin and unbelief, then they will spend an eternity separated from God.
cont
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind When your bible says the word hell, the word that the translators translated it from does not mean hell. It's a total mis-translation. Try one on me & I'll show you. (and I'm no scholar either). Same with the word eternal, forever, or everlasting. Try me.
I agree with you that no one gets saved until they come to a saving faith in Jesus.
But you're missing something. Not enough space here to explain & I don't want to make 10 posts here. lol
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
Also to get to the truth of the Bible we must read it in its entirety.
Ask yourself is the main message running through the whole Bible one that man must repent and turn in faith to God or is it that you can sin and believe in whatever you want?
Jesus' sacrifice covered our sins, but only the sins of those who experience a saving faith. If you are not “born again,” as Jesus said, then His blood will not cover our sins and you die to face an eternity separated from Him.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@In In its entirety. You are correct. Yes, we must repent & turn in faith to God. I agree. If you die in your sins you will NOT face an eternity separted from Jesus.
Jesus can save from the grave. He has & He will.
Hitler is going to be in Heaven with you for eternity. Get used to it.
I'm looking forward to it.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
So why do we need to repent and turn to Jesus if we are all saved? You are contradicting yourself. The Bible is quite clear about the fate of the wicked and unbelieving.
It's a popular fallacy that Jesus never spoke of hell and that the fear of hell began with Saint Paul. The truth is Jesus warned many times of the damnation of hell. The passages that Universalists cling to to support the heresy of "all will saved" are from Paul.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind Salvation is through faith in Jesus only. I'm not contradicting myself. The Bible is quite clear about the fate of the wicked. They too will ultimately be reconciled (saved). It's not a popular fallacy that Jesus never spoke about hell. He never did. Not once. Show me 1 verse where he did & I'll explain it for you (& I'm not a scholar).
Jesus said 'when I am lifted up, I WILL DRAW ALL MEN unto myself'
Jesus will save everyone. There is no such thing as hell. Try me.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
Here's 2 more verses which show Universal Salvation.
1 Timothy 4:10 "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe.
(did you notice that last part?)
Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to ALL MEN, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN, RESULTING in justification of life.
See v17 & 19 too.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
The Old Testament also teaches Universal Salvation. Here's some verses.
Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 28:14, Isaiah 26:9, 40:5, 45:21-25, 52:10, 57:16, 65:1, Psalm 22:27, 29, 24:1, 65:2-4, 66:3-4, 86:9, 138:4, 145:8-10, 16-17, Joel 2:28, Lamentations 3:21-24, 31-32
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane32
Two former atheists Howard Storm and Ian McCormack both had NDE experiences of hell. You might care to read their testimonies or perhaps you could write to them and call them liars.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind Are you now saying that NDE's are totally reliable?
Show me where your bible says I'm wrong.
ALL unsaved people who die are not automatically saved. You keep hearing me say they are, but I've never said that. You're not listening very well, apparently.
ALL WILL be saved. Hitler WILL be saved.
Hitler is accountable for his actions, but he will not suffer for all eternity.
There isn't one verse in the bible that speaks of HELL.
Show me ONE & I will show you that it's not hell
Lightmane321 1 year ago
by the way, I don't question the sincerity of people's NDE's & I would even accept that they did experience a 'scary place' of some kind.
I'm pretty sure things weren't all too rosy for Hitler either when he died.
But where does the bible say that these unsaved people will be in torment forever?
Nowhere, for those words are all mis-translations. None of them actually mean eternal, everlasting, or forever.
None of them.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
I'm saying that 2 ex staunch atheists had a life changing experience They say there is a hell, they experienced it. I have listened to them both and I believe them. Perhaps you could write to them yourself and take up your disbelief up with them.
Sorry, but I've heard all these tired old arguments before from Universalists and they don't wash with me.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind You, like so many others, have an interesting way of ASKING questions, but never ANSWERING any.
The tired arguments of Universalists come from YOUR BIBLE.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
I Tim. 2:1-6 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks be made for ALL MEN, for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."
Lightmane321 1 year ago
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance."
You believe that God's WILL will NOT be done.
I believe that God's WILL will be done.
God will accomplish His will.
The scriptures are clear, but men suppress the truth. Keep studying.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
That verse is not saying what you think it is. It means Jesus doesn't want anyone to perish, he desires that all people come to repentance, but that doesn't mean all will. He has still given everyone free will with which to accept or reject Him.
John 3-18 He that believeth on Him not, is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind Actually it IS saying what it says. If God 'desires' something, then God will bring it to pass. That's why this version rendered it 'God WILL HAVE all men to be saved'
He that believeth not is condemned already. Obviously, that's true also, but what is that persons eternal fate then?
Once you understand that, the rest will be easy for you.
All are 'born' under condemnation, as Romans 5:18 points out, thanks to Adam.
But Jesus WILL draw ALL MEN. Sorry you can't see it.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane3. The true meaning of this scripture and others you quote becomes apparent when they are taken in context with the main theme that runs throughout the whole Bible. That man must repent and turn to Jesus.
God wills that all men come to Him, it’s His desire no one should perish, however that salvation is dependant on man’s free will and choice. Hence the need to preach the gospel and repent in the here and now.l
cont
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
There is no verse in the Bible that says the sins of the wicked are forgiven in the afterlife or that they have a chance to repent in the afterlife.
Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men to die once, and then the judgment. Not a series of judgments, one judgment. There is also no verse that states the wicked get their names rewritten in the book of life, nor that God’s judgment is anything other than final and fixed.
Indigohue 1 year ago
Hey wait. If you agree with Paul Washer, then you can't believe what you just said.
Are you a Calvinist or an Arminian?
Paul Washer CLEARLY teaches, as do ALL Calvinists, that God does NOT desire that ALL become saved.
Do you follow Paul Washer or not?
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
Sorry, but it looks like contradiciton to me. You say salvation is through faith (meaning belief) in Jesus only, then in the next sentence you tell me everyone is ultimately reconciled. So why does anyone need faith in Jesus if all are saved?. Why even bother to preach the gospel when Hitler, Dr Mengele, Stalin, Attila the Hun, Nero and countless other evil despots will all have the same rewards.
That might be what you Bible preaches, but mine doesn't nor does God's word !
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind Sir or madam. Might I ask how old you are & do you study the bible or just believe what your pastor says? I see you refuse to take up my challenge by providing me ONE VERSE that speaks of hell.
God's word, the bible, proclaims that Jesus died to save all; that Jesus will draw all; that in Christ, ALL shall be made alive, that through one man's sin (Adam) death came upon ALL & through one man's righteousness (Christ), life came to ALL.
You need to study God's word.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
You've been indoctrinated by tentmaker ministries.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind No I haven't. Not at all. You've been indoctrinated by Paul Washer.
Good luck with that.
I've studied all sides of the issue, not just tentmaker & other Universalists.
I've also studied Calvinism, Arminianism, & Annihilationism.
I was raised Lutheran, became an Arminian born-again christian around 20 & an Annihilationist around 30 or so.
I have a Calvinist friend who now attends seminary. We've debated much.
He's grown weary of my arguments, but we're still friends.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
If you'd ever like to offer me biblical proof that you're right & I'm wrong, I'm listening, but if you insist on continuing to ignore my challenges & questions, then there's no need to continue, as you have no interest in what's true, but rather, what you believe to be true.
I've addressed ALL of your challeges & questions.
That pretty much says it all.
TRUTH is more important then my beliefs.
Can you say the same?
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
No, but I recognize a true man of God when I hear him. He speaks the real gospel of Jesus Christ, and what he preaches resonates with what I know in my heart to be true. It also backs up the scriptural word of God.
I think Universalists have just fallen for Satan's first lie when he said "God lies, you shall not die, but become Gods, being able to judge good from evil yourself"
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind Paul Washer teaches that babies are evil. That if they could, they'd kill anyone who took something from them & walk away with no remorse.
He teaches that God HATES all mankind, but chose to have mercy on a few & love them. Only those few Elect will be saved. God HATES everyone else because we are evil & God created hell so that all that is evil will be burned alive in literal fire for all eternity.
That's totally sick, but that's Calvinism & Paul is insane
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
I'm not a Calvanist for starters.
You have made wrong assumptions about him concerning the elect and other things.I know because I've heard what he's said Too tired to debate now though, catch you later.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind Ummm. Have you studied Calvinism? I've listened to Paul Washer. He's nuts & self-righteous too. I don't know where you get your info about Uni's believing Satan's lies in the garden.
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Salvation is found ONLY through faith in Jesus. There is no other name given under heaven whereby we MUST be saved.
Eternal life is God's gift.
You've been lied to about what Uni's believe.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
I've not been indoctrinated by anyone. I'm not a Calvanist and I was unaware he was one. I do not agree with the doctrine of Calvinism, but he still preaches a good sermon on what a saving faith means.
I follow the gospel of Jesus Christ, all Christians should be led by the Holy Spirit within. Jesus said to Peter "Upon this rock I build my church" meaning the body of Christ should be made of people who realize for themselves & are not taught by anyone.cont
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
Doesn't the fact the you've tried so many doctrines indicate that you truly don't know what to believe?
I've studied all the facts, scriptures and arguments relating to Universalism and see it as one the devil’s more dangerous poisons because it is so subtle & appears so good to people on the surface. It's a belief that can give rise to complacency, it nullifies the importance of preaching the gospel and makes lost souls think they are saved when they are not!
Indigohue 1 year ago
@In Okay. First off, I haven't 'tried' so many doctrines. I've studied them. My beliefs changed over time as I acquired new truths. The bible also clearly teaches annihilationism.
About your free will gospel. It's pathetic, which is why I no longer believe it.
First, Jesus said in John 6:44 'No man can come to me unless the father draws him'. Romans chapter 9 clearly teaches Calvinism, so how can you like Paul Washer when he's a DEVOUT Calvinist. He totally disagrees with you.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
If lost souls think they are saved when they are not, that's their problem or the problem of the Uni who said it. They're wrong, imo.
Jesus preached to the dead. People were baptized for the dead, so your information is all wrong.
Besides, the early church taught Universalism.
Only 1 school out of the 6 theological schools at the time taught eternal torment.
1 taught Annihilationism. The other 4 all taught Universalism.
Look it up. You've been duped.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
Here's what your gospel teaches. God loves everybody. Jesus died for everybody. God WANTS everybody to believe & He's TRYING to save everybody.
But He's just too darn weak & not powerful enough.
If only we humans would repent like He WANTS us too.
But we won't, so God is stuck. He has NO CHOICE. He's forced to ALLOW us to go to hell, even though He loves us and DOESN'T WANT us to go there.
Now THAT is a pathetic gospel. THAT is a pathetic God.
That's why I stopped believing that.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
and also, you're not dealing with the REAL ISSUE that proves that Uni is biblical.
And that is that HELL is NOT in the bible. It's a clear mis-translation. Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo & Gehenna are NOT HELL. Gehenna is a place on earth. You can go visit it. It's a very nice place now. It wasn't in Jesus' day.
Also, the idea of eternal punishment is also NOT in the bible.
Again, this is a CLEAR mis-translation. The word does not mean eternal, or everlasting, or forever, thus PROVING
Lightmane321 1 year ago
that the punishment of the wicked doesn't last forever. One word translated eternal is aion or aionian. It refers to an age or ages & represents an indeterminate period of time. Jonah was in the belly of the great fish FOREVER. A CLEAR mis-translation. There are MANY verses in the OT where the word was translated FOREVER & they're all clearly referring to a finite period of time.
Again.... a clear mis-translation.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
Calvinism: God COULD save all, but He won't. He hates them. He will only save those whom He chose to save. The only people who believe are those whom God gives the ability to believe. No one else CAN.
Arminianism: (this is you). God WANTS to save everyone, but He CAN'T. He's not powerful enough. He has no way of doing it, otherwise He would. He's stuck & the best He could do was give us the opportunity for eternal life. Otherwise, we'll just have to be burned alive in fire forever.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
God CAN save ALL. He WANTS to save ALL, so He WILL save ALL.
God WILL accomplish His WILL. Thy WILL be done ON EARTH, as it is in Heaven.
Our WILL cannot override God's will.
We can rebel all we want (our will) but God will bring us to a saving faith.
The unsaved will be punished (suffer loss), but God will have mercy on them & not punish them forever. This is clearly taught in scripture for the punishment isn't eternal. God will bring all to salvation.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane32
You are preaching heresy. There's no point debating this further because you cannot see. . Yes Jesus died for the whole of mankind, but we must receive salvation whilst we our in our earthly body.
All the lost and will know unequivocally after death that Jesus is Lord and Saviour but because of unbelief their sins are not covered by His blood and they will go into eternity with their sins. There is no scripture saying that you get a second chance to repent .
Cont
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
.Universalism is making a mocking of the gospel of Jesus Christ, because it falsely says even evil tyrants like Stalin and Hitler, who murdered millions will still one day enjoy the fruits of eternal life, after a dose of punishment. So why do we need faith or Jesus just let the punishment purify us. It's nonsense.
Lets just respectfully agree to disagree. Absolutely nothing you can say will sway me from my beliefs and my trust in God's word.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind The only heresy is the belief that God would actually create a hell where BILLIONS of lost souls will be literaly burned alive in literal fire for all eternity.
How you can even fathom how that makes sense is beyond me.
How you could even look forward to heaven, knowing this, is beyond me.
I'd NEVER live in heaven, if that were the case.
How can I live in Heaven while my lost brothers & sisters are burning in hell?
I can't. I won't. I'm sorry you can't see how horrible that is.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
Once again, you are back where you started at, questioning God's authority and sovereignity. Judging Him by your own humanistic standards.
Look at how Universalists have fallen for Satan's seducing lie "God lies, you shall not DIE, but become Gods, being able to judgeGOOD from EVIL YOURSELF
Do not exalt the teachings of a mortal likeGary Amirault over the word of God Almighty.
Adhere to this false doctrine if you want, but don't keep trying to convince me of it's validity.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Ind The punishment doesn't pay for our sins. Jesus paid for them. Hitler will end up in heaven with you & me, because Jesus loves Him & paid for His sins too.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
This is Universalism in a nutshell.
Repent and have faith in Jesus and you will be saved.
Don’t repent and don’t believe in Jesus and you will still be saved (eventually).
Thus you have not only called Jesus a liar, but you have rendered the preaching of the gospel totally redundant.
God has made it crystal clear that who ever dies in their sins will end up in eternity separated from Him. These are His words and if you don't like it, then that's just too bad.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue Show me ONE VERSE that says that if we die in our sins we will spend ETERNITY separated from God? You can't, because there isn't ANY verse which teaches that.
Do people who die in their sins, die in a state of being separated from God? Sure, I could buy that. That seems to be a reasonable conclusion, based on scripture. But I don't know EXACTLY what happens to unbelievers at death & neither do you, but I do know that Jesus DIED for them.
Nestosolo is a Calvinist, it appears.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
What you are failing to see is that Jesus SAID that He would draw ALL MEN to Himself. That Jesus is the savior of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY to those who believe (what r u going to do with this verse?)
2 Peter 3:9. Do you really believe that God will not accomplish what He desires?
God DESIRES that all be saved. Therefore, ALL WILL BE SAVED.
How weak is your God? How Loving is your God? How Good is your God?
Mine WILL accomplish that which He desires. He CAN'T FAIL!
Lightmane321 1 year ago
To sum it up. If Jesus did die for everyone & God desires that everyone be saved, then IF everyone doesn't ultimately get saved, then God failed to accomplish what He set out to do.
God won't fail. He can't. It's impossible for God to fail in saving everyone.
It's therefore inevitable that everyone will ultimately get saved, for God will save them. Have faith.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
The bible says that EVERY knee will bow & confess that Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God. Let's celebrate this glorious truth. Even those who die in their sins will, one day, confess that Jesus is Lord (on their knees).
I know how you interpret this verse. Let me give you a much better interpretation.
'Everyone' on their knees just confessed Jesus is Lord. 'Everyone' just got saved.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
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@Lightmane321
2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but wanting to have their EARS TICKLED, they will accumulate for themselves TEACHERS IN ACCORDANCE TO THEIR OWN DESIRES, and will TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH and will TURN ASIDE TO MYTHS."
Sums up Universalism and other false doctrines.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue NOPE. Universalism was taught by the early church. Pagan Doctrines brought the belief of eternal torment into Christianity and a corrupt Latin text, translated by Jerome.
It wasn't until 553AD that Universalism was condemned as heresy, by the Half-Pagan Emperor Justinian.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
You can’t assess what is true by personal feelings., otherwise you reinterpret the Bible to suit a personal morality.Jesus warns us of false prophets and teachings . This would not be necessary if all are ultimately saved.. If God could and does save everyone regardless, then why did Christ have to die in the first place?
Why bother with Jesus at all, do what you want and you still inherit eternal life.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
If fundamental Christianity is wrong, then no one has lost anything, but if Universalism is wrong ,( and it most certainly is) then its heretical doctrine is consigning multitudes of sinners and unbelievers to an eternal punishment separated from God, by falsely telling them they will be saved . Now that truly is evil. It’s a deception from the pits of hell itself.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@In If fundamental Christianity is right, then God is a horrible evil monster who burns His own children (whom He loves) in eternal flames, even though He doesn't want to.
If Univ. is right, then God REALLY IS Loving, Kind, Merciful, JUST, Wise, Holy, Sovereign, & Good.
ONLY true faith in Jesus saves. NOTHING but this faith will ever save anyone.
What must I do to be saved, said the jailer?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
One day, everyone will believe & be saved.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
By God's own revelation to us, there is no God without hell. Too bad you choose to exalt yourself above the Almighty by calling Him a liar. An attack on hell is an attack on the God who created it, and the Scriptures that describe it.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." 2 Thessalonians 1:9
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5.29).
You are doubting what happens at death because you are soaking up false doctrine. God's word is quite clear.
Indigohue 1 year ago
Second Thessalonians 1:9 says (KJV), "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord..." The Greek text says, olethron aionion, "eonian extermination." The word does not imply extermination beyond recovery, for it is limited to the eons by the adjective modifying it. The word is used at 1 Cor. 5:5, where it is recorded that Paul delivered "such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Lightmane321 1 year ago
There is no word in all of Scripture which even suggests annihilation, eternal destruction, loss or death from which there is no recovery, or a condition from which salvation is impossible. Always such terms as "destruction," "perish," "be lost," and "death," are relative to a period of time during an eon or during the eons.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
Yes, I copied & pasted this from 'An Analytical study of words, chapter 16'
If God consigns unrepentant unbelieving sinners to an ETERNITY of conscious torment, then God is unjust, unforgiving, unmerciful, unloving, unholy & evil.
Thankfully, God isn't any such thing.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
I will never accept the heresy that is Universalism, so please respect my beliefs.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue By the way. If I refer to your beliefs as heresy, would you say that I'm dis-respecting them? Just a thought.
I see how some Universalists speak to you when they debate you.
I guess we all don't realize how we sound when we speak.
I guess we're all somewhat self-righteous & holier than thou in our attitude.
I apologize, if I was. Take care.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321
The same words in both Greek and English used to describe the future punishment of the wicked are also used to describe God, the Spirit, salvation, and the kingdom, so if punishment isn't eternal neither is God, the spirit or the life of the believer.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@In Hi again. These are good points you're raising. The thing is, Aion & Aionian don't mean eternal. Apparently the Greek word that actually does mean eternal, is Aidios (there's a joke there, but I'll ignore it for now). lol
So in speaking of God & the spirit & the life of the believer, the words mean eons, or ages. What comes after that? Don't know, but clearly God transcends the eons.
By the way. I do think you've made some excellent points.
You obviously know a lot.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
I'm still learning, but in truth, I could accept Annihilation, as God would be perfectly JUST in destroying His creation. How could that be unjust, in any way? I could even accept eternal separation, provided that the person actually didn't want God & wanted to be where they were instead, even if it was 'unpleasant'.
There are circumstances where I could accept this, but I don't believe that God will do it.
But eternal torment, eternal fire? God forbid.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Lightmane321 Eternal separation would be just as worse. You clearly haven't been separated from Him, so you can't imagine what an eternity of that would be. If eternal separation from God was true, it would be endless, excruciating suffering with no way to commit suicide...
Cutie9326 9 months ago
@Lightmane321
Like I said before we must agree to disagree. I know I'll never change my mind regarding what I believe.
Thanks for the discussion though. God bless.
Indigohue 1 year ago
@Indigohue God bless you too. At least we gave each other some things to think about. Take care.
Lightmane321 1 year ago
@Indigohue
Excellent point.
peterpulpitpounder 11 months ago
If hell isnt real then Jesus Christ is a liar Matt 23:15/ 25:46, 33, Luke 16:23, Mark 9:43, 45, 47 and so are Peter and James 3:6, 2 Pet 2:4. And pretty much all of Revelation goes out of the window, we cant pick and choose wat we believe
e7c7o7 1 year ago
@e7c7o7 Wrong. Jesus NEVER spoke about 'hell'. Not one time. If you would study this, you will come to learn the truth. God bless you.