And it is because religious people have allowed that their intellect be dulled that they probably won't understand the logic of this video or will refuse to even consider it.
I have been presented with this "powerful" argument several times in the past and I've pretty much brought up the same points that you have presented in this nice, dynamic video.
The rules are as follows: The game host rolls a die, if you correctly predict that the outcome will be 6, you will win a million dollars.If you correctly predict any of the other possible outcomes, you will win nothing. What do you do?
Of course you will predict that the number coming up wll be 6.
Does this mean that you think that the game show host will throw 6, does this this mean that throwing 6 will be the most likely outcome?
Of course not! You are just making the most sensible choice.
In the context of religion picking a number means really believing in the religion at hand not choosing to practice a bunch of rituals that mean nothing to you just so that in case there really is a god you aren't screwed. If your reason is firmly opposed to it you will never be able to reach the state of faith that is required of a believer. As TheraminTrees pointed out, I doubt an omniscient being like it would be fine with such a mercenary attitude.
Pascal's wager is not an argument for the existence of God. It's an argument for believing in the existence of God, assuming that the probability of the existence of God is >0.
It also assumes that believing in something is a matter of choice. I don't think this is the case.
Here is an analogy: Imagine you are in the final round of a game show. In this final round, these are the rules: .... to be continued...
@FomalhautBeer Yes — as it says in the video at the start, it's an argument for believing in a god, not an argument for a god. A subtlety that passes some folks by.
A compelling explanation that I had never heard before, especially the assumptions made by Pascal. I will have to watch this again to really absorb it.
The music is fucking incredible! I just love the tunes used in your videos, in fact I had the "Why live?" video on for hours just for the pure awesome melody...
@karolis685 Thanks. The "Why Live' track — 'Helicopter' — came out mono in the video, which screwed the levels. Still not sure why that happened, but it was a glitch we could live with — appropriately enough :8)
If god is infinitely incomprehensible, on what basis can Pascal assert that betting on his existence will lead to an "infinity of infinitely happy life?" On what basis, granting that as a necessary prerequisite for the bet, can one say anything at all about this putative God, whether he wants us to bet, how he wants us to bet, whether or how he'll reward or punish if we bet.
@LarryBeil So either you're uneducated, lazy and uncaring about your fellow humans, or a liar... or are you going to 'disprove this weak dilemma' for us all to marvel and behold?
@LarryBeil Really couldn't care less if some stranger is 'unimpressed'. We made the video to answer a wave of folks who were presenting Pascal's wager as a viable/powerful argument.
@LarryBeil "Anyways, I'm unimpressed by this video. Anyone educated, could easily disprove this weak dilemma." - but you can't right? Because you're uneducated
Rkyeun - Assuming God is real, what God says goes. If God says he can do that and a mere human being like you disagrees, he gets the final word. You fail to understand that your opinion differs from others, including God's.
Also, anyone could disprove Pascal's two horse dilemma using the Bible, Pascals own tool. Pascal claimed to believe in Jesus Christ, who promised eternal life or punishment. "If you lose, you lose nothing" like he said to you below, easily disproves that. You just went on with this and that and babbled on about other stuff throughout the video.
@LarryBeil you clearly missed the point entirely before Pascal said jesus christ he stated God is ultimately Unknowable so accepting this premise means you cant then claim jesus was god for that would be Knowing god and if you can know god his Wager FAILs because you don't wager on the known. If it was known that you had the winning hand in a game of poker only a fool would wager against you.
I thought I'd come comment here after watching from a non biased perspective. I must say, most comments have very weak logic here. To Theramin - your last few comments seemed out of anger, like Vickequalscheat made a point you couldnt refute. Seemed like he made a point, that you were made about. You did fail to put that in your what ifs. Thats a fact.
@LarryBeil 'your last few comments seemed out of anger'
—LOL — er, nope. Not even a mild groan. In fact I tend to feel so little when I see comments like that, that I mostly can't even be bothered replying. People who want videos spelled out to them often do no better with replies. Often, of course, because they're not here to make real points at all, but to troll. There's explicit reference to 'infinite punishments' in the video, in specific reference to the christianities — hence the cross.
Interesting logic, nice background soundtrack, lots of what ifs... Interesting. But you forgot one important, obvious thing. What if there was a God, named Jesus Christ, that sends the wicked into an eternal punishment?
@VickEqualsCheat Erm no they actually addressed that. Did you not watch the video? If Jesus and his dad are willing to punish people eternally simply for not believing in them when they've provided no proper reasons for doing so then that's a chance we simply have to take. Such a petty being is not worthy of our worship.
@VickEqualsCheat So you watch a video about Pascal wager without even knowing that it was Blaise Pascal who said that. TheraminTrees said that if we lose we lose integrity, critical thought, untold hours to empty rituals... like for instances this one.... Feeding Trolls. Why am I feeding a troll, WHY????!!?!!!!!!
@TheraminTrees Can you tell me that in this video, that if you lose, you lose everything? You spend eternity punished? Because I saw, 'if you lose, you lose nothing.'
@VickEqualsCheat Interesting idea.But you forgot one important, obvious thing. What if there was a God, named nedladdy, that sends the wicked into an eternal punishment?
When there is only belief, neither hypothesis can be proved or, indeed, disproved. So my ridiculous claim in on a par with your claim.
@nedladdy Yes, indeed. But the point of my statement was, the what ifs were interesting, but the what if of eternal punishment was dodged throughout the whole video.
@VickEqualsCheat Yes, that is part of nedladdy's plan for us too. So not only is there a choice of pretending to believe and non-belief, but now there is nedladdy to believe in too, and how may others are thrown into the mix.
The reasoning at 5:10 is wonderful, but I'd like to take it a step further: we can invest in what is known, what is unknown, or establishing whether something is known or unknown (i.e. wasting time with "well, there might be a deity, because we can't deny it and because of [insert random metaphysical nonsense]"). It is obvious that for now we know too little to make statements about the existence of a deity (even that it might be eternally unknown). Our race is so young...
Prefer your talking videos. You have a pleasant voice, and I'm also trying to learn from it. There are too many shouting people in these subjects, and it's refreshing to hear someone calm addressing this. On the other hand I fear that I subjugate myself to the "politicians/rhetoric/lawyer-dilemma" i.e. That the one with the most compelling way of putting their case forward wins the argument, albeit they might be dead wrong regarding the subject.
@Krappman Just stick to presenting evidence and reasons, that's the most important part of debate/discussion. The eloquence and inflection of your presentation are secondary to the material being presented.
Yeah. deduction. ''Real atheists'' will twist anything into some retarded form of bulllshit-headedness. There is Christianity. Has 1 god. 1 is three. 3 is one. why? Because 528 hz. That's why. Because you are either a 13.75 billion year old piece of shit, that's pooped into existance by a big bang. Or you are a specifically designed piece of genuine engineering and expansive consciousness... If you think you are just a 14 bil. y.o. piece of shit, im ok with that :) :D God loves y'all.
And he's right by saying that you will not be a sincere friend. It's true, you cannot. I thought i was, i was not. The only one who can assert this is yourself, the true feeling of friendship is completely different from some kind of obligation or ''well, we can hang out n shit, because thats what friends do'', But nay, it's just different. You can't just write a fucking formula about it, that would explain it, blame chemicals for it.. Can't. Only your SOUL, which you have, which is YOU can see.
Hah, ''observing'' religous, That's like-- you can observe fake death on TV, but it's a completely different feeling when you actually kill someone. Killing someone... for most people, feels as if their soul is being ripped to shreds, but experiencing God...feels as if the soul is being healed, renewed, made back into one.You cant SEE that. You have to feel it and accept it. But if you don't want to, then well.. it must SUCK to be an atheist...
@3tangle3 Atheism will have nowhere to go in some time, nothing will support atheism, it soon will be the way to loneliness and fear of the divine in all forms, while others will enjoy life, Atheism might go as far as to deny life itself. And that is where it will hopefully die out...
@3tangle3 Out of wisdom and feeling of oneness, i see the afterlife, or the death of the eternal soul as the only 2 options which i am given. I doubt you want the death of YOUR eternal soul, do you...
@Zandonus What we want or do not want as the result of death has no bearing on what it actually is or any logical arguments one way or the other.
I do understand what you're saying though, it's the reason we comprehend the possibility of an afterlife in the first place. Even an eternity suffering in hellfire seems preferable to the idea that we simply stop existing, even if the latter is the more likely, logical result.
@Zandonus Dude... you've missed the point... by a staggering margin. Atheism is simply the lack of belief. We don't feel the need to believe in anything. It is not lonely nor is there any fear involved. Who's filled your mind with this nonsense? Atheism = lack of belief. What part of that sentence do you not get?
@Drweavil Ok, right. Now... that's a really weird concept... if not for belief in anything, one would not be able to achieve anything... I believe mainly in the power of people to do things. All kinds of things, doesn't matter what kind, just Do things. In the most basic sense, just rearranging dirt in the sandbox to form a house to live in. Forming the internet to get ideas around faster, stuff like that... Lack of belief is unimaginable to me.
@Zandonus You do it yourself every day, you don't believe in Zues, you don't believe in Thor, you don't believe in Zoroaster... you don't believe in a myriad of other gods yet you manage fine. We just extend that lack of belief to the judeo-christian gods too as we see no real evidence to treat them any different. It doesn't make us evil, it doesn't make us amoral, it doesn't do anything to us, it just means we lack belief.
@Drweavil Ah, but Zoroaster was a prophet... And perhaps Thor was a prophet aswell. Just like Mohamed and Jesus... And that's enough for me, to see them as teachers of wisdom. And indeed, they say wise words about how to work with your neighbours to make confined and somewhat happy together, at least tolerant. I mean, yeah, i don't really talk to my neighbours because they are selfish pricks, but i still greet them, because i know that one day, they will return the greeting.
@Zandonus Wow...you really don't have a clue what atheism is don't you? Just because one doesn't believe in a deity does not render life meaningless. That's nihilism not atheism.
@limericklad2000 Maybe I don't, maybe I do, all I know, that everyone becomes a believer when they are about to die, or are dying, that's all the proof I need.
@Zandonus Actually you don't know that, because it simply isn't true. It's a myth perpetuated by the religion in order to make them feel better about themselves and their beliefs. The vast majority of atheists do not suddenly become believers when they're about to die. Hitchens being a very famous and recent example. And if it were, what would that say about it? Only that as we all know already religion preys on the very natural human fear of death.
@limericklad2000 You can't know, of course, fear of death is understandable, but simply being afraid isn't going to fix anything. Fear of afterlife? Only for a guy who really has screwed up hard with his life :D. I'd be more worried about politics at the moment, because they seem to be focused on fear mongering, and fear is just not the way to go- fear of drugs, fear of differences, fear of change, fear of new things, basically :D Why would you promote that, eh?
@limericklad2000 "The vast majority of atheists do not suddenly become believers when they're about to die." An additional argument: Even if they did, then belief in what? Jesus for people being raised in christian culture? Allah for people in arabia? Zeus for people in the distant past? and so on... - Not every religion can be right, but all can be wrong - Cheers.
I've had this video favourited for over a year now and still love it every time. The effort gone into making it (I imagine) is fantastic and it's so clearly explained, just a fantastic production all round and the reasoning is superb. All I've got to say is thank you.
The truth is-whatever you do will eventually end in just temporary feelings that you done something,so...No option matters,even being rational-since earth itself will fade away anyway,and humans along with it.
It's actually easy to believe in every option at once,and once you do...you find the pattern that really say that non of this even matters,because eventually everything means Nothing,while nothing do not exist.
So,best option-try to form a nicer world for all,just to spare the useless pain
Masterful. Another deceivingly simple argument to silence all the superticious. By contrast their arguments seem intricate as they need to justify themselves by themselves, not through logic.
Thank you for making this video. It's tiring to have to refute the same flawed argument over and over, but the two of you have done so in the most eloquent and engaging way that I've ever seen. Much appreciated!
@PazingerZ Thanks. It was cropping up as an argument time and time again when we did this video — got tired of repeating ourselves. Such a terrible argument too isn't it — a horse that fails every hurdle.
@TheraminTrees Is there a way to get your voice on this? Reading it to a blind friend is fine, but I believe she would more or less appreciate hearing your voice more. :3 great vid!
Whoa, these videos blow my mind every time! It is amazing how well you guys translate thoughts into clear understandable words. You have taken difficult concepts and made them accessible to anyone willing to take a few minutes and watch your videos. I only just discovered these and am looking forward to learning more. Keep up the good work!
When I am contemplating this type of thing I am often in a quiet relaxed setting, maybe in my house after reading a book. It's a completely different atmosphere while watching your video. It's intense and exciting! haha. I'm on the edge of my seat. It's like drug-induced pure logic. If only it were that simple =P.
A very persuasive video. Although, many denominations within religions believe in the same basic things to reach salvation, and there are many with zero or minimal ritualistic practices. Keep in mind that we know quite a bit about these religions and researching them isn't a futile waste of time. Follow your heart and think of the possibilities. If the divine does exist, and it does care about you, it would want you to find the truth.
@DirdeeD 'If the divine does exist, and it does care about you, it would want you to find the truth.'
—The logical conclusions of that particular argument are either:
a. the divine is incapable of helping you out in the impossible task of sorting through all the currently available — let alone possible future — divine concepts in one lifetime. With the total of any divine evidence, it comes down to faith — and on that basis, you can choose whatever you like.
@TheraminTrees My point was that although there are many different teachings, many sects within particular religions believe in the same basic principles. You can choose whatever you like, but if you diligently research, certain truths will become self-evident. If you approach both science and religion with an open mind, you can grasp the relation easier. Religious texts were written thousands of years ago. People look at these ancient texts with modern eyes and no wonder they don't get it.
@DirdeeD 'if you diligently research, certain truths will become self-evident'
—Oh. Could you please tell me this evidence you've found then. Many of us have researched diligently — and found no gods. If you have such evidence, I'm open to hearing it. Approaching religion with an open mind also means recognising its biasses, special-pleading and unworkable arguments.
I'm watching this video again after months and it's still fantastic. It's a concise refutation presented in a audio-visually engaging and emotionally compelling format that you just don't get anywhere else on YouTube. Or anywhere else I can think of for that matter. The way the words move to compartmentalize important information, the way the sound creates tension, the way the animation creates a sense of progression... And I see you even still comment here.
@IXPrometheusXI On behalf of me and Qualia, thanks — glad you enjoyed it. We found Pascal's Wager a tedious, desiccated old argument but it kept on being put to us — so we wanted to have some fun with the debunking.
Just wondering is deism considered a religion? I just thought it was a similar stance as Atheism, in the sense that deists just believe in god and that's it. There are no rituals or rules they have to follow, as Atheism they do not believe in God and there are no rules for being an Atheist. Or maybe there is more to Deism that I missed initially.
@AQGOAT24 Deism's had a varied history, and there've been different approaches among deists about the expression of their beliefs — some reject the idea of prayer altogether, while others see a value in prayer as an expression of gratitude/supplication to their god, or for its meditative qualities. It's been termed a 'natural religion' — as opposed to 'revealed' religions, based on revelation claims from scripture, miracles, etc..
Well... I do think Pascal has preference to religion, but in the end, does it really matter if it is "science" or "God" or "gods" or aliens dreaming of our life (lately my preference), in the end you will believe what you want, make what you want of the facts in front of you, and not even science can make value/moral judgments that will last... definitions changing like the shifting ground beneath our feet. In the end, everything unknowable just comes back full circle.
@chrisdryer 'does it really matter if it is "science" or "God" or "gods" or aliens ....'
—If you care whether what you believe is true, yep.
'in the end you will believe what you want'
—Some might. I don't 'want' to believe anything specific — I want to learn what's real.
'not even science can make value/moral judgments that will last'
—Science is a better candidate than anything I've heard put forward. If morality is based on our knowledge, we need good knowledge-expanding tools. Not dogma.
My daily life is not affected by my origins before I was born or when I die. I guess I forget that you are talking directly to people who perform rituals or something?
Advances in science can just as easily produce good as they can problems, consequences or be corrupted for the sake of those who have the knowledge to have power. Salesmanship and propaganda techniques are examples of knowledge that empowers as long as it is not identified. Sounds like early religion...
@chrisdryer 'Salesmanship and propaganda techniques are examples of knowledge that empowers as long as it is not identified. Sounds like early religion...'
—Yes there are lots of elements of salesmanship and propaganda in religion. And learning how to resist sales people, and to see through and debunk propaganda are also kinds of knowledge.
It's a shame that we all can't have knowledge so power is uneven,... for example I don't think I will again know enough about the presidential candidates... haha... (I didn't actually think anyone would respond to my comment... haha.) btw - Increasing our empathy is more than a text book can teach because you have to know thyself of course...which is always in motion.
This is such a well made video. It is very straight to the point and easy to comprehend. Also I like the music and animation. It's a shame it does not get as many views as the other bs that's on youtube.
I favorited this video a couple years ago and every now and then I come back to watch it
What I got from this video, Pascal's wager basically says that if you believe, it will eventually be proven to you? The unknowable is infinitely possible, and to bed on any certain form of supernatural deity is taking a shot in the dark, considering all the different forms of "gods" that exist, and all the ones we even know about. To assume there "is" without proof is to assume that any possibility is correct, without evidence. Its ridiculous. We need to use EVIDENCE to dictate what we think.
I liked the video. I saw it as the boy and his parents both misinterpreted the truths behind instruction manual, but that the permanent truths (love, forgiveness, joy, etc.) come out anyway.
@BruceinKansas Then you liked your own story, not mine. It's intrinsic to the Instruction Manual for Life video that the boy took the time and trouble to investigate the manual and therefore saw it for what it was.
@TheraminTrees Fair enough. It was not as clear to me what precisely was in the manual, so my take was that all those beautiful variations on the theme of cabinets were the truths that were in the manual, but hidebound by misinterpretation ("sola scriptura" or "works of the law") instead of underlying and enduring message of the goodness of mankind and the truth inherent in love, mercy, and acceptance. It's a wonderful video, though. Congratulations!
@BruceinKansas Thanks. The manual contains a set of conflicting instructions to make an unwieldy nonsensical product. To get something remotely useable out of it, the instructions have to be extensively edited, and to perpetuate the false idea that it's useful, everyone must be made to edit it the same way — or someone will discover they can do a better job themselves.
@BruceinKansas Lets say its your manual. How do you know that the underlying messages of love and what not wheren't the actual "misinterpretation" and the manual you threw out yesterday(You know. The one that told you to bash new born babies against the cabinet) wasn't the real deal?
@BarryGormley2010 Good point. As good as the manual is, going with the manual alone is a problem. So first I can use my sensory experience to know what I see and understand as good (love, mercy, joy, patience, generosity, etc) as well as the lack of them and understand it is not good (pride, greed, anger, etc). But the real problem may be this: the Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
@BruceinKansas So many buzz words. Why is god not humble. or disire humanity that whuld eventualy grow out of him. instead, god says"without me, you are nothing". this is diffrence between philosopher, and proffet. philosopher wants others to bechome better thinkers then him, and know things he with his limited time cant. while proffet claims to be right forever, and everyone who thinks difrently is wrong. aristotoles was humble and wise man. jesus was shefish fool.
@gethsoftware God is humble enough to give us free will. Millions over the centuries have seen in Jesus the humility of God. That the Creator of the universe would enter time and space and become a tiny baby in order to teach humanity how to live and turn back to Him. By becoming a perfect, willing sacrifice to atone for humanity's sin, Jesus is the rock of salvation, but a stumbling block for we who are determined to save ourselves; the stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
@supportwarcraft3 For me, this isn't about science, nor about when Pascal was alive — I don't see any 'science' in his assertions, and if they'd been good ideas, they'd be keepers, regardless of which century they were formulated in. His wager doesn't work because it's flawed, parochial, and — despite his claims of guarding against his own prejudices — hopelessly biased.
Couldn't have said it better myself. "Accepting supernatural means accepting mutually exclusive ideas, thus paradox. Consequently the benefits of the unknown are lost."
even though I'm Christian and this disputes my beliefs I thought it was a very good video, especially cause I always felt like pascals wager was dumb.
according to an athiest then, if i go on who wants to be a millionaire and I don't have the first answer, i should just enjoy sitting there and decline to guess the answer to the first question. Even though i have nothing to lose because it's better to enjoy sitting there grinning like an idiot than to risk guessing the answer to a question that i have heard a possible answer to (this analogy presupposes a death bed conversion where the only sacrifice you make is minutes of time and your pride)
@TheLuckySaGe cant be that erroneous since nobodies been able to propose a productive alternate course of action using the "betting on infinity" premise of this video. Maybe YOU should do some thinking on that before YOU type. What would you do with this idea of "better to not guess, than to guess wrong" in a gameshow scenario. All i hear from atheists on this subject is, if I can't be 100% sure i'm right, i'd rather be 100% sure i'm wrong. Instead of using their best guess, they just give up.
@depthforge "if I can't be 100% sure i'm right, i'd rather be 100% sure i'm wrong. Instead of using their best guess, they just give up." Faulty analogy. Watch the video again, maybe you will understand it next time, but I doubt it.
@TheLuckySaGe "Faulty analogy" are you talking about where he suggests atheism could be the rewarded scenario? Thats reductio ad absurdum. It is sound logic in an information vacuum, but the real christians of the world claim ample information from higher plains in the form of NDEs, OBEs, miracles, healings & resurrections. youtube any of those for recent occurrences and you'll find them easily. Even my friends, family & I have experienced our share of faith healings from chronic conditions
@depthforge LOL @ YOU. Why don't you go to africa and turn 1 fish into 4 billion fish so you can feed africa. Oh, and while your at it use your faith healing powers to heal all the malnourished children. Fucking dumbass.
@TheLuckySaGe well in answer to your questions. 1. I don't have unlimited faith, I only just managed my own healing with the help of a friend. Thats probably because i'm a sceptic & nothing special 2. Faith healings unlike miracles require 2 parties to have faith, that's why even Christ couldn't heal people with no faith. Your question is quite naive (how old r u? your last post makes you seem very young), its as if you expect a person with $50 to pay america's national debt. People have limits.
@depthforge You call yourself a skeptic then you say shit like "faith healings unlike miracles require 2 parties to have faith" . This conversation is done, your a fucking dumbass.
@TheLuckySaGe my scepticism is genetic, my father was athiest & his parents before him but it doesnt define me its merely a tendency. I make my own choices about who I am. A man is the sum of his choices, not his past. Seriously how old are you? You must be 12 or you would know that already. You are not capable of understanding until you gain some experience yourself in this area. So be a good rationalist & go get some spiritual experience yourself, attend some faith healing meetings then report
@depthforge "my scepticism is genetic, my father was athiest"...."A man is the sum of his choices, not his past". Can't you see how you blatantly contradict yourself with your own words? You are anything but a skeptic. I am seriously not going to reply to you anymore, I am starting to think you are a troll. That is a good thing because my hopes for humanity are dashed if you are really being sincere.
@TheLuckySaGe im not usually as tactless as you, but im beginning to think you need special education. let me spell it out again. just because you are born a certain way, does not mean you must remain that way. thats not a contradiction its a description of a conscious decision to change your behaviour despite your nature. Eg. a land animal swimming, you can do things you werent born to do. how is it you have lived long enough to learn to type but not learned the basics of the human condition?
@depthforge Your Millionaire analogy only works if there's a possibility that none of the answers displayed are correct. When you're on that game show, you KNOW that one of the four answers are correct (unless they've made a mistake, which hardly happens). With life after death though, 'non-belief' could be the correct answer. What if only atheists go to heaven? Isn't this a possibility?
@jewisharific "What if only atheists go to heaven?" lol, i'll pay that, that is a possibility, but it's like the ones they throw in as jokes in the early stages. It's not likely based on what we have heard through NDEs. Plato wrote about elements of the classic NDE in a culture that was completely anathema to those concepts. He derived his theories largely from the story of Er a Greek soldier who woke 10 days after being slain on his own funeral pyre. Our guesses are usually better when educated
@depthforge You would walk into the studio knowing something about the game show "who wants to be a millionaire" beforehand. But what if you marched an alien from another galaxy who had never heard of Earth, much less seen American television onto the stage of millionaire?
You presume to be judged on death knowing NOTHING about the criteria of judgment. What if it turns out god hates Christians more than atheists? Actually, I'll tell you, he probably would, if he's infinitely wise and logical.
@medexamtoolsdotcom are you suggesting that YOU have never heard anything about the spiritual? Have YOU never heard of God, NDE's, judgement day, or reciprocity? Religion predates written history (& the ethiopians say Enoch was the 1st to write). we have always been spiritually conscious, why do we even have these ideas? Where do they come from? Nothing comes from nowhere and we DON'T exist in an information vacuum like an alien would, so in one way or another we DO end up knowing something
@depthforge I am PRECISELY saying I know nothing about the supernatural. I am in a supernatural vacuum, just like the alien. That's exactly what I'm saying. I have knowledge of what my parents and my Sunday school told me. I never believed it even when I was 2 years old. They're all just stories told by primitive man to explain things they didn't know, or straight up fiction. That's where they came from. Maybe in 10000 years there will be people worshiping Pecos Bill, Cthulhu or Penn and Teller.
@medexamtoolsdotcom it may be true that you have never encountered inexplicable phenomena. But that is not everyone's experience. If it were we would have no need of scientists to try to find explanations for things, and we would not even have the word supernatural which was invented to describe things that happen that seem to be inexplicable according to known physical laws and theories. I believe that the supernatural is so called simply because science has yet to find laws to describe it.
@depthforge Now if you DENY that there is a difference between what you have been told about the supernatural and actual knowledge of the supernatural (and FROM WHAT I'M TOLD, I also know what Martians are supposed to look like - they're supposed to be green people with antennae, right?), and you believe hook, line and sinker, that Earthly religions are the actual words of god or gods, then you STILL don't know if you're supposed to believe the words or disbelieve the words to pass the test!
@medexamtoolsdotcom I don't deny that most of what is said about the supernatural is rubbish. And I never said otherwise. But the many and diverse supernatural experiences of myself, my friends and my family... all warrant attempts at explanation. You don't have any such experiences, so it's only natural that you would think such things are fiction, (the chinese thought giraffes were mythological until they found them in africa) so I say; that you will have to seek to find God for yourself also
@depthforge all I can say is if you have observed MANY and DIVERSE phenomena which rational scientific people, if they only were to be there to observe them along with you, could ONLY explain with supernatural theories, then it's a crying shame that there weren't any of them around when the events happened! Someone may have won a nobel prize in physics for that! What lousy luck that it never happened to you or anyone in crowded wide-open areas with millions of people with camcorders!
@medexamtoolsdotcom there are often MDs involved... do they count? Like the kid in my church who recently got healed of cancer, he had a tumour & in his initial scans, it was about the size of a lime, he got prayer for it & during the next scan just before he was scheduled to go in for surgery, the tumour was gone. Call it coincidence if you want, but know that you're going to have to call thousands of other such healings coincidence too, like my best friends insulin dependent diabetes
@georgek19 great question. for believers there is a very simple answer, for sceptics no answer is admissible. On no less than 7 occasions after healing a person Jesus said that it was their faith that healed them. How much faith does it take to heal something internal (even if scannable) Vs how much it would take to heal something extremely visible & massive. You can find videos of people being healed of visible things, but not things of great mass outside of the body. difference? required faith
@georgek19 read my reply: "not things of great mass outside of the body" because in paraphrase, they are too hard. not to say that it couldn't happen, but i reckon it wouldn't. Even resurrections after several days or longer are easier than that is. the idea that faith can heal comes from anecdotes, not science. ones that engender belief especially well, are those where the person has a 0% chance of survival & prayer or something like it is the only treatment available but they walk away fine.
@georgek19 I personally believe that the "supernatural" stuff in the bible & church communities - most of it transmogrification, works in the same way as the mechanism demonstrated in the quantum eraser experiment that proves that conscious observers collapse probability waves into discrete particle locations. I believe that under the right conditions people could affect a larger number of particles and potentially show changes above the planck scale. far fetched perhaps but worth pondering
power architecture - all senses satisfied, plus fear (if you are a believer confined to the regulations) or whatever feelings one can develop.
Rituals are important for people. Personally I believe that theatre, visual art and art are better and less oppressive places for mis-en-scene, spectacle and ritual.
Just a thought about rituals and spectacles in religious context. People like and need spectacles. I - as a staunch atheist and an artist love going into different churches/synagogues and looking at the rituals, the movement of the priests/rabbies. the sound of the voice (if the mass is read in Latin the better), the smell of myrrh, for example, the movement of the priests or whoever walks, the colour of the clothes, the whole chruch, the light, the way how churches are a devious form of ..
WHO CARES WHAT A DEAD SCIENTIST BELIEVED ? THE CRISTIAN CHURCHES STARTED BY A PARTY THAT STOOD TO GAIN FROM THE SPLINTER ISN'T A RELIGION. BUT AN INTERVENTION OF CONFLICTING IDEALS . A RELIGION HAS TO SET GUIDELINES FOR IT'S FOLLOWERS TO LIVE BY IN ANY COUNTRY OR CONDITION.THE FIRST PART OF THE BIBLE , HAS A SIMPLE TEN LAWS THAT PRETTY WELL COVER ALL CALLS OF BEHAVIOR .THE SECOND PART I BELIEVE TO HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED BY SO MANY INTERPRETERS IT NEEDS AN UPDATE.
I fap to this.
Kovenmx 15 minutes ago in playlist Qualia and me
I love that ending. It's so chilling, which is kind of the point.
PsychoticSnake 4 days ago
Big booty bitches
Mirolovic100 5 days ago
I like the information but I had to pause it a lot. I feel more neurotic now than before watching the video....
timothyforvendetta 5 days ago
Very good video!
superduperjew 6 days ago
And it is because religious people have allowed that their intellect be dulled that they probably won't understand the logic of this video or will refuse to even consider it.
I have been presented with this "powerful" argument several times in the past and I've pretty much brought up the same points that you have presented in this nice, dynamic video.
TheUnchainedMind 6 days ago
The rules are as follows: The game host rolls a die, if you correctly predict that the outcome will be 6, you will win a million dollars.If you correctly predict any of the other possible outcomes, you will win nothing. What do you do?
Of course you will predict that the number coming up wll be 6.
Does this mean that you think that the game show host will throw 6, does this this mean that throwing 6 will be the most likely outcome?
Of course not! You are just making the most sensible choice.
FomalhautBeer 6 days ago
@FomalhautBeer
Not quite.
In the context of religion picking a number means really believing in the religion at hand not choosing to practice a bunch of rituals that mean nothing to you just so that in case there really is a god you aren't screwed. If your reason is firmly opposed to it you will never be able to reach the state of faith that is required of a believer. As TheraminTrees pointed out, I doubt an omniscient being like it would be fine with such a mercenary attitude.
TheUnchainedMind 6 days ago
Pascal's wager is not an argument for the existence of God. It's an argument for believing in the existence of God, assuming that the probability of the existence of God is >0.
It also assumes that believing in something is a matter of choice. I don't think this is the case.
Here is an analogy: Imagine you are in the final round of a game show. In this final round, these are the rules: .... to be continued...
FomalhautBeer 6 days ago
@FomalhautBeer Yes — as it says in the video at the start, it's an argument for believing in a god, not an argument for a god. A subtlety that passes some folks by.
TheraminTrees 6 days ago
A compelling explanation that I had never heard before, especially the assumptions made by Pascal. I will have to watch this again to really absorb it.
brightsorcerer 1 week ago
Well done, sir.
MrAndroid40k 1 week ago
The music is fucking incredible! I just love the tunes used in your videos, in fact I had the "Why live?" video on for hours just for the pure awesome melody...
karolis685 1 week ago
@karolis685 You can buy this and other tracks from bandcamp. This track is linked in the description, and you can find the others there as well.
Tantalus really is one of the best... I really liked Helicopter, too :)
Polymeron 1 week ago
@karolis685 Thanks. The "Why Live' track — 'Helicopter' — came out mono in the video, which screwed the levels. Still not sure why that happened, but it was a glitch we could live with — appropriately enough :8)
TheraminTrees 6 days ago
Seen a lot of hoo-har about this here video of late. Just thought I'd let you know, I think it's really good.
Pascal's Wager is an utterly flawed logic.
andyfromsheldon 1 week ago
Excellent!
TheMadBeach 1 week ago
that an awesome tune
jmm1233 1 week ago
@jmm1233 Cheers
TheraminTrees 1 week ago
If god is infinitely incomprehensible, on what basis can Pascal assert that betting on his existence will lead to an "infinity of infinitely happy life?" On what basis, granting that as a necessary prerequisite for the bet, can one say anything at all about this putative God, whether he wants us to bet, how he wants us to bet, whether or how he'll reward or punish if we bet.
And yet people still drudge this thing up.
prodprod 1 week ago
Nice destruction of Pascal's Wager! More people should know about it.
treehugrurthluvrsupr 1 week ago
pwned them like a boss'
pandorachild 1 week ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Anyways, I'm unimpressed by this video. Anyone educated, could easily disprove this weak dilemma.
LarryBeil 1 week ago
@LarryBeil So either you're uneducated, lazy and uncaring about your fellow humans, or a liar... or are you going to 'disprove this weak dilemma' for us all to marvel and behold?
GronTheMighty 1 week ago
@LarryBeil Really couldn't care less if some stranger is 'unimpressed'. We made the video to answer a wave of folks who were presenting Pascal's wager as a viable/powerful argument.
TheraminTrees 1 week ago 14
Thumbs up if you think @LarryBeil is a troll
sstan1337 1 week ago 4
@LarryBeil Im curious. Would you mind disproving what you perceive as this 'weak dilemma'?
AgeOfScience 1 week ago
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@LarryBeil "Anyways, I'm unimpressed by this video. Anyone educated, could easily disprove this weak dilemma." - but you can't right? Because you're uneducated
TheLuckySaGe 1 week ago
@LarryBeil Feel free to disprove it then!
(I could easily state that I am capable to run the 100m dash in 9,5 seconds, but so what?)
FomalhautBeer 6 days ago
@LarryBeil So, why don't you, then?
Sinnessa 6 days ago
@LarryBeil "Anyone educated...." Well, I guess that leaves you out!
politicoochie09 4 days ago
Rkyeun - Assuming God is real, what God says goes. If God says he can do that and a mere human being like you disagrees, he gets the final word. You fail to understand that your opinion differs from others, including God's.
LarryBeil 1 week ago
@LarryBeil
Might makes right. Not moral either.
rkyeun 1 week ago
Also, anyone could disprove Pascal's two horse dilemma using the Bible, Pascals own tool. Pascal claimed to believe in Jesus Christ, who promised eternal life or punishment. "If you lose, you lose nothing" like he said to you below, easily disproves that. You just went on with this and that and babbled on about other stuff throughout the video.
LarryBeil 1 week ago
@LarryBeil you clearly missed the point entirely before Pascal said jesus christ he stated God is ultimately Unknowable so accepting this premise means you cant then claim jesus was god for that would be Knowing god and if you can know god his Wager FAILs because you don't wager on the known. If it was known that you had the winning hand in a game of poker only a fool would wager against you.
RaisedAnAtheist 1 week ago
I thought I'd come comment here after watching from a non biased perspective. I must say, most comments have very weak logic here. To Theramin - your last few comments seemed out of anger, like Vickequalscheat made a point you couldnt refute. Seemed like he made a point, that you were made about. You did fail to put that in your what ifs. Thats a fact.
LarryBeil 1 week ago
@LarryBeil 'your last few comments seemed out of anger'
—LOL — er, nope. Not even a mild groan. In fact I tend to feel so little when I see comments like that, that I mostly can't even be bothered replying. People who want videos spelled out to them often do no better with replies. Often, of course, because they're not here to make real points at all, but to troll. There's explicit reference to 'infinite punishments' in the video, in specific reference to the christianities — hence the cross.
TheraminTrees 1 week ago 10
Absolutely blows Pascal's Wager out of the water and exposes its false dichotomy.
zthomasack 1 week ago 2
Great vid, but i had to keep pausing it to read it cus i'm kinda slow lol
shaddelick 1 week ago
Interesting logic, nice background soundtrack, lots of what ifs... Interesting. But you forgot one important, obvious thing. What if there was a God, named Jesus Christ, that sends the wicked into an eternal punishment?
VickEqualsCheat 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat Erm no they actually addressed that. Did you not watch the video? If Jesus and his dad are willing to punish people eternally simply for not believing in them when they've provided no proper reasons for doing so then that's a chance we simply have to take. Such a petty being is not worthy of our worship.
limericklad2000 1 week ago 3
@limericklad2000 I saw a 'if you lose, you lose nothing'
VickEqualsCheat 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat So you watch a video about Pascal wager without even knowing that it was Blaise Pascal who said that. TheraminTrees said that if we lose we lose integrity, critical thought, untold hours to empty rituals... like for instances this one.... Feeding Trolls. Why am I feeding a troll, WHY????!!?!!!!!!
ac14pc 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat If you're asking that, then you appear to have missed the point of the video entirely.
TheraminTrees 1 week ago 25
@TheraminTrees I think that you fail to see that all of the what ifs avoided the point of a harsh punishment.
VickEqualsCheat 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat I think that you were watching another video.
TheraminTrees 1 week ago
@TheraminTrees Can you tell me that in this video, that if you lose, you lose everything? You spend eternity punished? Because I saw, 'if you lose, you lose nothing.'
VickEqualsCheat 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat 'Because I saw, 'if you lose, you lose nothing.' '
—Yup. And when you saw that in the video, who was saying it?
TheraminTrees 1 week ago
@TheraminTrees I think you were watching this video, but weren't paying attention.
VickEqualsCheat 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat Bye bye troll
TheraminTrees 1 week ago 5
Comment removed
rkyeun 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat
Then he'd be the first in, since sending anyone to eternal punishment is wicked.
rkyeun 1 week ago
@rkyeun Sending anyone to eternal punishment is wicked according to who?
VickEqualsCheat 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat
You mean you honestly can't tell for yourself that it's wicked?
rkyeun 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat Interesting idea.But you forgot one important, obvious thing. What if there was a God, named nedladdy, that sends the wicked into an eternal punishment?
When there is only belief, neither hypothesis can be proved or, indeed, disproved. So my ridiculous claim in on a par with your claim.
cheers
nedladdy 1 week ago
@nedladdy Yes, indeed. But the point of my statement was, the what ifs were interesting, but the what if of eternal punishment was dodged throughout the whole video.
VickEqualsCheat 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat Yes, that is part of nedladdy's plan for us too. So not only is there a choice of pretending to believe and non-belief, but now there is nedladdy to believe in too, and how may others are thrown into the mix.
cheers
nedladdy 1 week ago
@VickEqualsCheat "What if there was a God, named Jesus Christ, that sends the wicked to an eternal punishment?"
Then the "wicked" would be punished eternally, if "wickedness" can be narrowly defined.
lotanddaughters 1 week ago
The reasoning at 5:10 is wonderful, but I'd like to take it a step further: we can invest in what is known, what is unknown, or establishing whether something is known or unknown (i.e. wasting time with "well, there might be a deity, because we can't deny it and because of [insert random metaphysical nonsense]"). It is obvious that for now we know too little to make statements about the existence of a deity (even that it might be eternally unknown). Our race is so young...
fardelian 2 weeks ago
Prefer your talking videos. You have a pleasant voice, and I'm also trying to learn from it. There are too many shouting people in these subjects, and it's refreshing to hear someone calm addressing this. On the other hand I fear that I subjugate myself to the "politicians/rhetoric/lawyer-dilemma" i.e. That the one with the most compelling way of putting their case forward wins the argument, albeit they might be dead wrong regarding the subject.
Krappman 3 weeks ago
@Krappman Just stick to presenting evidence and reasons, that's the most important part of debate/discussion. The eloquence and inflection of your presentation are secondary to the material being presented.
kilroy055 2 weeks ago
Mind = BLOWN
MrChevrolet2500hd 1 month ago
This is awesome! Why haven't I seen this up 'til now?! *Subscribed*
palerider1775 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Yeah. deduction. ''Real atheists'' will twist anything into some retarded form of bulllshit-headedness. There is Christianity. Has 1 god. 1 is three. 3 is one. why? Because 528 hz. That's why. Because you are either a 13.75 billion year old piece of shit, that's pooped into existance by a big bang. Or you are a specifically designed piece of genuine engineering and expansive consciousness... If you think you are just a 14 bil. y.o. piece of shit, im ok with that :) :D God loves y'all.
Zandonus 1 month ago
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Zandonus 1 month ago
And he's right by saying that you will not be a sincere friend. It's true, you cannot. I thought i was, i was not. The only one who can assert this is yourself, the true feeling of friendship is completely different from some kind of obligation or ''well, we can hang out n shit, because thats what friends do'', But nay, it's just different. You can't just write a fucking formula about it, that would explain it, blame chemicals for it.. Can't. Only your SOUL, which you have, which is YOU can see.
Zandonus 1 month ago
Hah, ''observing'' religous, That's like-- you can observe fake death on TV, but it's a completely different feeling when you actually kill someone. Killing someone... for most people, feels as if their soul is being ripped to shreds, but experiencing God...feels as if the soul is being healed, renewed, made back into one.You cant SEE that. You have to feel it and accept it. But if you don't want to, then well.. it must SUCK to be an atheist...
Zandonus 1 month ago
@Zandonus enough with the fairy tales
3tangle3 1 month ago
@3tangle3 Atheism crap is the real fairy tale here, bro. Merry Christmas. SANTA IS REAL.
Zandonus 1 month ago
@Zandonus but atheism doesnt make up any stories? just indifference
3tangle3 1 month ago
@3tangle3 Atheism will have nowhere to go in some time, nothing will support atheism, it soon will be the way to loneliness and fear of the divine in all forms, while others will enjoy life, Atheism might go as far as to deny life itself. And that is where it will hopefully die out...
Zandonus 1 month ago
@Zandonus out of fear and loneliness you cling to religion.....why do you need an afterlife.....thats selfish
3tangle3 1 month ago
@3tangle3 Out of wisdom and feeling of oneness, i see the afterlife, or the death of the eternal soul as the only 2 options which i am given. I doubt you want the death of YOUR eternal soul, do you...
Zandonus 1 month ago
@Zandonus What we want or do not want as the result of death has no bearing on what it actually is or any logical arguments one way or the other.
I do understand what you're saying though, it's the reason we comprehend the possibility of an afterlife in the first place. Even an eternity suffering in hellfire seems preferable to the idea that we simply stop existing, even if the latter is the more likely, logical result.
DuskoftheTwilight 1 month ago
@DuskoftheTwilight I suggest you eat a cookie and feel the all-loving father's embrace through the cookie of Love.
Zandonus 1 month ago
@Zandonus Dude... you've missed the point... by a staggering margin. Atheism is simply the lack of belief. We don't feel the need to believe in anything. It is not lonely nor is there any fear involved. Who's filled your mind with this nonsense? Atheism = lack of belief. What part of that sentence do you not get?
Drweavil 1 month ago
@Drweavil Ok, right. Now... that's a really weird concept... if not for belief in anything, one would not be able to achieve anything... I believe mainly in the power of people to do things. All kinds of things, doesn't matter what kind, just Do things. In the most basic sense, just rearranging dirt in the sandbox to form a house to live in. Forming the internet to get ideas around faster, stuff like that... Lack of belief is unimaginable to me.
Zandonus 1 month ago
@Zandonus You do it yourself every day, you don't believe in Zues, you don't believe in Thor, you don't believe in Zoroaster... you don't believe in a myriad of other gods yet you manage fine. We just extend that lack of belief to the judeo-christian gods too as we see no real evidence to treat them any different. It doesn't make us evil, it doesn't make us amoral, it doesn't do anything to us, it just means we lack belief.
Drweavil 1 month ago
@Drweavil Ah, but Zoroaster was a prophet... And perhaps Thor was a prophet aswell. Just like Mohamed and Jesus... And that's enough for me, to see them as teachers of wisdom. And indeed, they say wise words about how to work with your neighbours to make confined and somewhat happy together, at least tolerant. I mean, yeah, i don't really talk to my neighbours because they are selfish pricks, but i still greet them, because i know that one day, they will return the greeting.
Zandonus 1 month ago
@Zandonus Wow...you really don't have a clue what atheism is don't you? Just because one doesn't believe in a deity does not render life meaningless. That's nihilism not atheism.
limericklad2000 1 week ago
@limericklad2000 Maybe I don't, maybe I do, all I know, that everyone becomes a believer when they are about to die, or are dying, that's all the proof I need.
Zandonus 1 week ago
@Zandonus Actually you don't know that, because it simply isn't true. It's a myth perpetuated by the religion in order to make them feel better about themselves and their beliefs. The vast majority of atheists do not suddenly become believers when they're about to die. Hitchens being a very famous and recent example. And if it were, what would that say about it? Only that as we all know already religion preys on the very natural human fear of death.
limericklad2000 1 week ago
@limericklad2000 You can't know, of course, fear of death is understandable, but simply being afraid isn't going to fix anything. Fear of afterlife? Only for a guy who really has screwed up hard with his life :D. I'd be more worried about politics at the moment, because they seem to be focused on fear mongering, and fear is just not the way to go- fear of drugs, fear of differences, fear of change, fear of new things, basically :D Why would you promote that, eh?
Zandonus 1 week ago
@limericklad2000 "The vast majority of atheists do not suddenly become believers when they're about to die." An additional argument: Even if they did, then belief in what? Jesus for people being raised in christian culture? Allah for people in arabia? Zeus for people in the distant past? and so on... - Not every religion can be right, but all can be wrong - Cheers.
Elune137 6 days ago
The answer is oviously the invisible pink unicorn, it even says so in his book.
vatiz93 1 month ago
This video is AWESOME! Best debunking of Pascal's Wager I've seen, and that goes for the videos I've made about it as well. Well done!
AtheistExplains 1 month ago 15
@AtheistExplains Thanks ;8)
TheraminTrees 1 month ago
I've had this video favourited for over a year now and still love it every time. The effort gone into making it (I imagine) is fantastic and it's so clearly explained, just a fantastic production all round and the reasoning is superb. All I've got to say is thank you.
hellomoto170 1 month ago 9
@hellomoto170 On behalf of me and Qualia, thanks.
TheraminTrees 1 month ago
The truth is-whatever you do will eventually end in just temporary feelings that you done something,so...No option matters,even being rational-since earth itself will fade away anyway,and humans along with it.
It's actually easy to believe in every option at once,and once you do...you find the pattern that really say that non of this even matters,because eventually everything means Nothing,while nothing do not exist.
So,best option-try to form a nicer world for all,just to spare the useless pain
Wharwulif 1 month ago
Masterful. Another deceivingly simple argument to silence all the superticious. By contrast their arguments seem intricate as they need to justify themselves by themselves, not through logic.
TheLightBearer1969 1 month ago
As a theist, I never did understand why other theists would use Pascal's wager argument as any justifiable reason for believing in a God.
pautpy 1 month ago
that soundtrack was seriously cool!
Clearie552 2 months ago
Thank you for making this video. It's tiring to have to refute the same flawed argument over and over, but the two of you have done so in the most eloquent and engaging way that I've ever seen. Much appreciated!
PazingerZ 2 months ago 11
@PazingerZ Thanks. It was cropping up as an argument time and time again when we did this video — got tired of repeating ourselves. Such a terrible argument too isn't it — a horse that fails every hurdle.
TheraminTrees 2 months ago 10
@TheraminTrees Is there a way to get your voice on this? Reading it to a blind friend is fine, but I believe she would more or less appreciate hearing your voice more. :3 great vid!
PaperSoapy 1 week ago
Whoa, these videos blow my mind every time! It is amazing how well you guys translate thoughts into clear understandable words. You have taken difficult concepts and made them accessible to anyone willing to take a few minutes and watch your videos. I only just discovered these and am looking forward to learning more. Keep up the good work!
Skyhawk02 2 months ago 8
@Skyhawk02 Thanks. Qualia and I thought Pascal's wager can be a bit dry — if we were going to address it, we wanted to have some fun doing it.
TheraminTrees 2 months ago 6
When I am contemplating this type of thing I am often in a quiet relaxed setting, maybe in my house after reading a book. It's a completely different atmosphere while watching your video. It's intense and exciting! haha. I'm on the edge of my seat. It's like drug-induced pure logic. If only it were that simple =P.
Forseti6288 2 months ago 5
What a marvellous video. The text was going by too damn fast though, I didn't really "watch" the video as I did repeatedly pause and resume.
Jotto999 2 months ago
A very persuasive video. Although, many denominations within religions believe in the same basic things to reach salvation, and there are many with zero or minimal ritualistic practices. Keep in mind that we know quite a bit about these religions and researching them isn't a futile waste of time. Follow your heart and think of the possibilities. If the divine does exist, and it does care about you, it would want you to find the truth.
DirdeeD 2 months ago
@DirdeeD 'If the divine does exist, and it does care about you, it would want you to find the truth.'
—The logical conclusions of that particular argument are either:
a. the divine is incapable of helping you out in the impossible task of sorting through all the currently available — let alone possible future — divine concepts in one lifetime. With the total of any divine evidence, it comes down to faith — and on that basis, you can choose whatever you like.
b. the divine doesn't exist.
TheraminTrees 2 months ago 4
@TheraminTrees My point was that although there are many different teachings, many sects within particular religions believe in the same basic principles. You can choose whatever you like, but if you diligently research, certain truths will become self-evident. If you approach both science and religion with an open mind, you can grasp the relation easier. Religious texts were written thousands of years ago. People look at these ancient texts with modern eyes and no wonder they don't get it.
DirdeeD 2 months ago
@DirdeeD 'if you diligently research, certain truths will become self-evident'
—Oh. Could you please tell me this evidence you've found then. Many of us have researched diligently — and found no gods. If you have such evidence, I'm open to hearing it. Approaching religion with an open mind also means recognising its biasses, special-pleading and unworkable arguments.
TheraminTrees 2 months ago 9
I'm watching this video again after months and it's still fantastic. It's a concise refutation presented in a audio-visually engaging and emotionally compelling format that you just don't get anywhere else on YouTube. Or anywhere else I can think of for that matter. The way the words move to compartmentalize important information, the way the sound creates tension, the way the animation creates a sense of progression... And I see you even still comment here.
You are... so cool. SO cool, dude.
IXPrometheusXI 3 months ago 4
@IXPrometheusXI On behalf of me and Qualia, thanks — glad you enjoyed it. We found Pascal's Wager a tedious, desiccated old argument but it kept on being put to us — so we wanted to have some fun with the debunking.
TheraminTrees 3 months ago 4
Just wondering is deism considered a religion? I just thought it was a similar stance as Atheism, in the sense that deists just believe in god and that's it. There are no rituals or rules they have to follow, as Atheism they do not believe in God and there are no rules for being an Atheist. Or maybe there is more to Deism that I missed initially.
AQGOAT24 3 months ago
@AQGOAT24 Deism's had a varied history, and there've been different approaches among deists about the expression of their beliefs — some reject the idea of prayer altogether, while others see a value in prayer as an expression of gratitude/supplication to their god, or for its meditative qualities. It's been termed a 'natural religion' — as opposed to 'revealed' religions, based on revelation claims from scripture, miracles, etc..
TheraminTrees 3 months ago
Well... I do think Pascal has preference to religion, but in the end, does it really matter if it is "science" or "God" or "gods" or aliens dreaming of our life (lately my preference), in the end you will believe what you want, make what you want of the facts in front of you, and not even science can make value/moral judgments that will last... definitions changing like the shifting ground beneath our feet. In the end, everything unknowable just comes back full circle.
chrisdryer 3 months ago
@chrisdryer 'does it really matter if it is "science" or "God" or "gods" or aliens ....'
—If you care whether what you believe is true, yep.
'in the end you will believe what you want'
—Some might. I don't 'want' to believe anything specific — I want to learn what's real.
'not even science can make value/moral judgments that will last'
—Science is a better candidate than anything I've heard put forward. If morality is based on our knowledge, we need good knowledge-expanding tools. Not dogma.
TheraminTrees 3 months ago
@TheraminTrees
My daily life is not affected by my origins before I was born or when I die. I guess I forget that you are talking directly to people who perform rituals or something?
Advances in science can just as easily produce good as they can problems, consequences or be corrupted for the sake of those who have the knowledge to have power. Salesmanship and propaganda techniques are examples of knowledge that empowers as long as it is not identified. Sounds like early religion...
chrisdryer 3 months ago
@chrisdryer 'I guess I forget that you are talking directly to people who perform rituals or something'
—I'm talking to people who were repeatedly suggesting their christian god was the 'best bet' — Pascal's wager.
'Advances in science can just as easily produce good as they can problems ....'
—And if we advance far enough, increasing our understanding of our human frailties and shortcomings, maybe we'll have a better chance overcoming them.
TheraminTrees 3 months ago
@chrisdryer 'Salesmanship and propaganda techniques are examples of knowledge that empowers as long as it is not identified. Sounds like early religion...'
—Yes there are lots of elements of salesmanship and propaganda in religion. And learning how to resist sales people, and to see through and debunk propaganda are also kinds of knowledge.
TheraminTrees 3 months ago
@TheraminTrees
It's a shame that we all can't have knowledge so power is uneven,... for example I don't think I will again know enough about the presidential candidates... haha... (I didn't actually think anyone would respond to my comment... haha.) btw - Increasing our empathy is more than a text book can teach because you have to know thyself of course...which is always in motion.
chrisdryer 3 months ago
@chrisdryer I don't want to believe in what I want, I want my beliefs to match reality.
kenn714 3 months ago
Nice! I like the Hitchhikers Guide feel to it.
0Soule0 3 months ago
This is such a well made video. It is very straight to the point and easy to comprehend. Also I like the music and animation. It's a shame it does not get as many views as the other bs that's on youtube.
I favorited this video a couple years ago and every now and then I come back to watch it
liorcaspi 3 months ago
4:15 If that were the case, I'd probably be fighting for the users, battling others with jai alai sticks and frisbees. :)
Akira625 3 months ago
What I got from this video, Pascal's wager basically says that if you believe, it will eventually be proven to you? The unknowable is infinitely possible, and to bed on any certain form of supernatural deity is taking a shot in the dark, considering all the different forms of "gods" that exist, and all the ones we even know about. To assume there "is" without proof is to assume that any possibility is correct, without evidence. Its ridiculous. We need to use EVIDENCE to dictate what we think.
MetalxXxMayhem 4 months ago
Awesome video!
kernell32bcn 4 months ago
I liked the video. I saw it as the boy and his parents both misinterpreted the truths behind instruction manual, but that the permanent truths (love, forgiveness, joy, etc.) come out anyway.
BruceinKansas 5 months ago
@BruceinKansas Then you liked your own story, not mine. It's intrinsic to the Instruction Manual for Life video that the boy took the time and trouble to investigate the manual and therefore saw it for what it was.
TheraminTrees 5 months ago 5
@TheraminTrees Fair enough. It was not as clear to me what precisely was in the manual, so my take was that all those beautiful variations on the theme of cabinets were the truths that were in the manual, but hidebound by misinterpretation ("sola scriptura" or "works of the law") instead of underlying and enduring message of the goodness of mankind and the truth inherent in love, mercy, and acceptance. It's a wonderful video, though. Congratulations!
BruceinKansas 5 months ago
@BruceinKansas Thanks. The manual contains a set of conflicting instructions to make an unwieldy nonsensical product. To get something remotely useable out of it, the instructions have to be extensively edited, and to perpetuate the false idea that it's useful, everyone must be made to edit it the same way — or someone will discover they can do a better job themselves.
TheraminTrees 5 months ago 10
@BruceinKansas Lets say its your manual. How do you know that the underlying messages of love and what not wheren't the actual "misinterpretation" and the manual you threw out yesterday(You know. The one that told you to bash new born babies against the cabinet) wasn't the real deal?
BarryGormley2010 3 months ago
@BarryGormley2010 Good point. As good as the manual is, going with the manual alone is a problem. So first I can use my sensory experience to know what I see and understand as good (love, mercy, joy, patience, generosity, etc) as well as the lack of them and understand it is not good (pride, greed, anger, etc). But the real problem may be this: the Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
BruceinKansas 3 months ago
@TheraminTrees Brilliantly spotted. I would never have known how to respond to that kind of statement.
M3t4lManiac 4 months ago
@BruceinKansas So many buzz words. Why is god not humble. or disire humanity that whuld eventualy grow out of him. instead, god says"without me, you are nothing". this is diffrence between philosopher, and proffet. philosopher wants others to bechome better thinkers then him, and know things he with his limited time cant. while proffet claims to be right forever, and everyone who thinks difrently is wrong. aristotoles was humble and wise man. jesus was shefish fool.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
@gethsoftware God is humble enough to give us free will. Millions over the centuries have seen in Jesus the humility of God. That the Creator of the universe would enter time and space and become a tiny baby in order to teach humanity how to live and turn back to Him. By becoming a perfect, willing sacrifice to atone for humanity's sin, Jesus is the rock of salvation, but a stumbling block for we who are determined to save ourselves; the stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
BruceinKansas 3 months ago
@BruceinKansas that is why you fail. you dont see whats right in front of you. the god you worship is none of those things that you said.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
Blaise Pascal died about 350 years ago, science has taken a gigantic leap since then. Using his arguments now is just invalid.
supportwarcraft3 6 months ago
@supportwarcraft3 For me, this isn't about science, nor about when Pascal was alive — I don't see any 'science' in his assertions, and if they'd been good ideas, they'd be keepers, regardless of which century they were formulated in. His wager doesn't work because it's flawed, parochial, and — despite his claims of guarding against his own prejudices — hopelessly biased.
TheraminTrees 6 months ago 10
@supportwarcraft3 Well hold on now, that argument was JUST as invalid 350 years ago as it is today.
zooryanzoo123 4 months ago
@ Video Uploader
Couldn't have said it better myself. "Accepting supernatural means accepting mutually exclusive ideas, thus paradox. Consequently the benefits of the unknown are lost."
bluekhanel 6 months ago
even though I'm Christian and this disputes my beliefs I thought it was a very good video, especially cause I always felt like pascals wager was dumb.
Thefrickenator 6 months ago
according to an athiest then, if i go on who wants to be a millionaire and I don't have the first answer, i should just enjoy sitting there and decline to guess the answer to the first question. Even though i have nothing to lose because it's better to enjoy sitting there grinning like an idiot than to risk guessing the answer to a question that i have heard a possible answer to (this analogy presupposes a death bed conversion where the only sacrifice you make is minutes of time and your pride)
depthforge 6 months ago
@depthforge Nope.
TheraminTrees 6 months ago 12
@depthforge Really? Come on dude, can you at least think before you type garbage?
TheLuckySaGe 6 months ago
@TheLuckySaGe cant be that erroneous since nobodies been able to propose a productive alternate course of action using the "betting on infinity" premise of this video. Maybe YOU should do some thinking on that before YOU type. What would you do with this idea of "better to not guess, than to guess wrong" in a gameshow scenario. All i hear from atheists on this subject is, if I can't be 100% sure i'm right, i'd rather be 100% sure i'm wrong. Instead of using their best guess, they just give up.
depthforge 6 months ago
@depthforge "if I can't be 100% sure i'm right, i'd rather be 100% sure i'm wrong. Instead of using their best guess, they just give up." Faulty analogy. Watch the video again, maybe you will understand it next time, but I doubt it.
TheLuckySaGe 5 months ago
@TheLuckySaGe "Faulty analogy" are you talking about where he suggests atheism could be the rewarded scenario? Thats reductio ad absurdum. It is sound logic in an information vacuum, but the real christians of the world claim ample information from higher plains in the form of NDEs, OBEs, miracles, healings & resurrections. youtube any of those for recent occurrences and you'll find them easily. Even my friends, family & I have experienced our share of faith healings from chronic conditions
depthforge 5 months ago
@depthforge LOL @ YOU. Why don't you go to africa and turn 1 fish into 4 billion fish so you can feed africa. Oh, and while your at it use your faith healing powers to heal all the malnourished children. Fucking dumbass.
TheLuckySaGe 5 months ago
@TheLuckySaGe well in answer to your questions. 1. I don't have unlimited faith, I only just managed my own healing with the help of a friend. Thats probably because i'm a sceptic & nothing special 2. Faith healings unlike miracles require 2 parties to have faith, that's why even Christ couldn't heal people with no faith. Your question is quite naive (how old r u? your last post makes you seem very young), its as if you expect a person with $50 to pay america's national debt. People have limits.
depthforge 5 months ago
@depthforge You call yourself a skeptic then you say shit like "faith healings unlike miracles require 2 parties to have faith" . This conversation is done, your a fucking dumbass.
TheLuckySaGe 5 months ago
@TheLuckySaGe my scepticism is genetic, my father was athiest & his parents before him but it doesnt define me its merely a tendency. I make my own choices about who I am. A man is the sum of his choices, not his past. Seriously how old are you? You must be 12 or you would know that already. You are not capable of understanding until you gain some experience yourself in this area. So be a good rationalist & go get some spiritual experience yourself, attend some faith healing meetings then report
depthforge 5 months ago
@depthforge "my scepticism is genetic, my father was athiest"...."A man is the sum of his choices, not his past". Can't you see how you blatantly contradict yourself with your own words? You are anything but a skeptic. I am seriously not going to reply to you anymore, I am starting to think you are a troll. That is a good thing because my hopes for humanity are dashed if you are really being sincere.
TheLuckySaGe 5 months ago
@TheLuckySaGe im not usually as tactless as you, but im beginning to think you need special education. let me spell it out again. just because you are born a certain way, does not mean you must remain that way. thats not a contradiction its a description of a conscious decision to change your behaviour despite your nature. Eg. a land animal swimming, you can do things you werent born to do. how is it you have lived long enough to learn to type but not learned the basics of the human condition?
depthforge 5 months ago
@depthforge Your Millionaire analogy only works if there's a possibility that none of the answers displayed are correct. When you're on that game show, you KNOW that one of the four answers are correct (unless they've made a mistake, which hardly happens). With life after death though, 'non-belief' could be the correct answer. What if only atheists go to heaven? Isn't this a possibility?
jewisharific 5 months ago 2
@jewisharific "What if only atheists go to heaven?" lol, i'll pay that, that is a possibility, but it's like the ones they throw in as jokes in the early stages. It's not likely based on what we have heard through NDEs. Plato wrote about elements of the classic NDE in a culture that was completely anathema to those concepts. He derived his theories largely from the story of Er a Greek soldier who woke 10 days after being slain on his own funeral pyre. Our guesses are usually better when educated
depthforge 5 months ago
@depthforge You would walk into the studio knowing something about the game show "who wants to be a millionaire" beforehand. But what if you marched an alien from another galaxy who had never heard of Earth, much less seen American television onto the stage of millionaire?
You presume to be judged on death knowing NOTHING about the criteria of judgment. What if it turns out god hates Christians more than atheists? Actually, I'll tell you, he probably would, if he's infinitely wise and logical.
medexamtoolsdotcom 5 months ago
@medexamtoolsdotcom are you suggesting that YOU have never heard anything about the spiritual? Have YOU never heard of God, NDE's, judgement day, or reciprocity? Religion predates written history (& the ethiopians say Enoch was the 1st to write). we have always been spiritually conscious, why do we even have these ideas? Where do they come from? Nothing comes from nowhere and we DON'T exist in an information vacuum like an alien would, so in one way or another we DO end up knowing something
depthforge 5 months ago
@depthforge I am PRECISELY saying I know nothing about the supernatural. I am in a supernatural vacuum, just like the alien. That's exactly what I'm saying. I have knowledge of what my parents and my Sunday school told me. I never believed it even when I was 2 years old. They're all just stories told by primitive man to explain things they didn't know, or straight up fiction. That's where they came from. Maybe in 10000 years there will be people worshiping Pecos Bill, Cthulhu or Penn and Teller.
medexamtoolsdotcom 5 months ago
@medexamtoolsdotcom it may be true that you have never encountered inexplicable phenomena. But that is not everyone's experience. If it were we would have no need of scientists to try to find explanations for things, and we would not even have the word supernatural which was invented to describe things that happen that seem to be inexplicable according to known physical laws and theories. I believe that the supernatural is so called simply because science has yet to find laws to describe it.
depthforge 5 months ago
@depthforge Now if you DENY that there is a difference between what you have been told about the supernatural and actual knowledge of the supernatural (and FROM WHAT I'M TOLD, I also know what Martians are supposed to look like - they're supposed to be green people with antennae, right?), and you believe hook, line and sinker, that Earthly religions are the actual words of god or gods, then you STILL don't know if you're supposed to believe the words or disbelieve the words to pass the test!
medexamtoolsdotcom 5 months ago
@medexamtoolsdotcom I don't deny that most of what is said about the supernatural is rubbish. And I never said otherwise. But the many and diverse supernatural experiences of myself, my friends and my family... all warrant attempts at explanation. You don't have any such experiences, so it's only natural that you would think such things are fiction, (the chinese thought giraffes were mythological until they found them in africa) so I say; that you will have to seek to find God for yourself also
depthforge 5 months ago
@depthforge all I can say is if you have observed MANY and DIVERSE phenomena which rational scientific people, if they only were to be there to observe them along with you, could ONLY explain with supernatural theories, then it's a crying shame that there weren't any of them around when the events happened! Someone may have won a nobel prize in physics for that! What lousy luck that it never happened to you or anyone in crowded wide-open areas with millions of people with camcorders!
medexamtoolsdotcom 4 months ago
@medexamtoolsdotcom there are often MDs involved... do they count? Like the kid in my church who recently got healed of cancer, he had a tumour & in his initial scans, it was about the size of a lime, he got prayer for it & during the next scan just before he was scheduled to go in for surgery, the tumour was gone. Call it coincidence if you want, but know that you're going to have to call thousands of other such healings coincidence too, like my best friends insulin dependent diabetes
depthforge 4 months ago
@depthforge how about amputees?
georgek19 4 months ago
@georgek19 great question. for believers there is a very simple answer, for sceptics no answer is admissible. On no less than 7 occasions after healing a person Jesus said that it was their faith that healed them. How much faith does it take to heal something internal (even if scannable) Vs how much it would take to heal something extremely visible & massive. You can find videos of people being healed of visible things, but not things of great mass outside of the body. difference? required faith
depthforge 4 months ago
@depthforge have you seen someone get their lost limb back? how would you know that faith had anything to do with someone getting "healed"?
georgek19 4 months ago
@georgek19 read my reply: "not things of great mass outside of the body" because in paraphrase, they are too hard. not to say that it couldn't happen, but i reckon it wouldn't. Even resurrections after several days or longer are easier than that is. the idea that faith can heal comes from anecdotes, not science. ones that engender belief especially well, are those where the person has a 0% chance of survival & prayer or something like it is the only treatment available but they walk away fine.
depthforge 4 months ago
@georgek19 I personally believe that the "supernatural" stuff in the bible & church communities - most of it transmogrification, works in the same way as the mechanism demonstrated in the quantum eraser experiment that proves that conscious observers collapse probability waves into discrete particle locations. I believe that under the right conditions people could affect a larger number of particles and potentially show changes above the planck scale. far fetched perhaps but worth pondering
depthforge 4 months ago
Comment removed
georgek19 4 months ago
power architecture - all senses satisfied, plus fear (if you are a believer confined to the regulations) or whatever feelings one can develop.
Rituals are important for people. Personally I believe that theatre, visual art and art are better and less oppressive places for mis-en-scene, spectacle and ritual.
artbielz 6 months ago
Just a thought about rituals and spectacles in religious context. People like and need spectacles. I - as a staunch atheist and an artist love going into different churches/synagogues and looking at the rituals, the movement of the priests/rabbies. the sound of the voice (if the mass is read in Latin the better), the smell of myrrh, for example, the movement of the priests or whoever walks, the colour of the clothes, the whole chruch, the light, the way how churches are a devious form of ..
artbielz 6 months ago
1:20-1:27 Using Holy Water for Chinese Water Torture.
ETNIFA 6 months ago
An excellent video. It demonstrates the problems of Pascal's wager very effectively.
However, my favourite aspect is the music. It's very enjoyable. :P
Nibor7301 6 months ago
I say let them wonder in dark til they hit there heads enough. I know i did. = D
lovetreefolkdecks 6 months ago
WHO CARES WHAT A DEAD SCIENTIST BELIEVED ? THE CRISTIAN CHURCHES STARTED BY A PARTY THAT STOOD TO GAIN FROM THE SPLINTER ISN'T A RELIGION. BUT AN INTERVENTION OF CONFLICTING IDEALS . A RELIGION HAS TO SET GUIDELINES FOR IT'S FOLLOWERS TO LIVE BY IN ANY COUNTRY OR CONDITION.THE FIRST PART OF THE BIBLE , HAS A SIMPLE TEN LAWS THAT PRETTY WELL COVER ALL CALLS OF BEHAVIOR .THE SECOND PART I BELIEVE TO HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED BY SO MANY INTERPRETERS IT NEEDS AN UPDATE.
GIANFRANCO FRONZI.7/16/ 2011
9493760 6 months ago