The Impossible Turn - Aviation Video #35

[skipdownstairs]

NICE JOB!

[Goldcoastnz]

The point is; you should do a complete take-off briefing to yourself about how you are going to handle ALL emergencies after take-off. This includes briefing any passengers.

[riDDDiculous]

I guess 6 people would turn back without thinking... good luck!

[Bravo21]

The reality is tho, it is Not 180 Deg. back to the Runway, its more like 210...downwind.

Do not worry about money or the aircraft; worry about life. As soon as the engine failed, the Insurance Co. owned the aircraft so just put it down safely wherever you can, so you and your passengers can walk away.

[rumparound]

An old instrument instructor of mine (who had survived 8 after takeoff engine failures) said that he always thinks about turning back. He claims he did what basically amounted to a split s in a citabria at about 800ft and make it back. He is like 75 so maybe his memory is a little off but I wonder how much altitude, if done properly, is lost in a split s? I wonder if this is even possible?

[Leticoz]

what about traffic? you cant expect to turn around and be sure that the runway is clear.. for all you know there might be an aircraft being towed on the runway

[AVMamfortas]

Excellent. I will give that a go on my Flt Sim.

[kozmon0t]

What if you decide on 1000, but then your engine dies at 900 and straight ahead is a lava plain covered with big sharp rocks as far as the eye can see?

[Learjet31Pilot]

@kozmon0t - a stall/spin accident during a failed 180 degree return to the runway is almost universally fatal. How is that any better?

[kozmon0t]

@Learjet31Pilot It's better if the turn doesn't fail 100% of the time and the terrain would kill you 100% of the time

anyhow it's a joke, unless there really are airports in vast fields of giant boulders

[jimbobble24]

i was taught that 500ft is the altitude at which you can consider a turn back to the airport

[chrisklein21]

you should never ever consider a 180 degree turn back to the runway on climb out.

[Learjet31Pilot]

@chrisklein21 - this kind of dogmatic statement is poorly thought out. The fact that pilots keep repeating it suggests they are unwilling or unable to thoughtfully consider the risks vs. benefits of executing this maneuver. It is not always safe to execute a 180 degree turn, but anyone saying "never" do it is doing the community a disservice with their constipated thinking.

[DanTCerone]

@Learjet31Pilot LOL!  Yes, all the pilots are stupid and you are smart. That is the bottom line.

Dream on.

[Learjet31Pilot]

@DanTCerone - way to be an arrogant douchebag. Call us back when you actually have something relevant to add to the discussion.

[DanTCerone]

@Learjet31Pilot ROFL! I have a better idea. You call us back when you reach the maturity level necessary to pilot an airplane in a responsible manner. Based on what you write, that will be a LONG, LONG time from now. In the meantime, feel free to continue acting and writing as a child.

[CFITOMAHAWK2]

@Learjet31Pilot

I agree with you 100%. I teach this Question Mark Turn since 1993 and did a video about them for real in 1995. The ones that crash are the ones that don't know or didn't want to know this maneuver, had to do it, error andcrashed. Those are the ones that makes the news and Statistics. I and many of my students have done them without accidents and not counted. For every accident there are 10 or more done successfully. I'm one of them, 2 times for real in 6k hours.

[awsomevids2u]

Cant he just land on the water?

[PunKid1991612]

@awsomevids2u yeah and run the high risk of loosing your aircraft and possibly drowning.

[danialimran06]

1st option will be look out for "water landing spot"...

[noonelimit]

it depends on your aircraft weight too ! 500 ft 2 persons atboard ,full fuel, not easy to make a 180 ° on rwy !

[sportpilot2]

It all depends on your aircraft and it's glide performance. I've done it from 500ft AGL in an Allegro 2000 SLSA. I wouldn't dream of trying it in my Cherokee Six 260(which flies like a piano without power). Know your plane, practice at a safe altitude, and know exactly what it can do(and thus, what your options are). Remember also, a true engine failure is different than a simulated one which continues to generate a small amount of thrust(ie glide distance)

[MrAcehawk]

One thing that people tend to forget about this turn is that it in most cases is more than a 180 degree turn it is probably closer to 270 degrees. Here is an example you have a fully load C172, it's 35 degress celcius, how far do you think you will be away from the airport by the time you get 1000 feet AGL, now you have an engine failure, are you turning back? Chances are really good you are not making it, pick a suitable spot and land!

[Weefles]

I fly in the texas hillcountry. If I have atleast 500 feet of altitude, im going to try and make the turn. If I can't im either landing on IH-10 (Probably wont make it) Or landing in the thick brush (Probably won't live)

[migkid]

you don´t want to stall one wing by pushing a steep turn. also, you have to think on what situation will you cause to people near you (ground) if you fiasco this turn. There are many stories some say it´s possible to do it just 400 to 500 ft agl, some pray it´s impossible. there are so many factors to consider that if you can, always fly straight and crash in control.

[jroseund]

@ klub77

I would rather be in a controlled crash and be alive, then be in a uncontrolled crash and have forensics identify my remains through DNA testing.

[klub77]

So, if you decide not to turn, and go straight, there is no chance of making it to a runway. soooo in other words, you crash? you attempt to land on a road? a lake? a field? or just into trees or a house? I do fly myself, I could never imagine this happening and then having to land in a lake or a road. i could probably do it, but i couldnt imagine the police showing up, cars going by on a road. its like a nightmare. anyone who isnt a pilot, or even is would call it a crash, which scares me.

[FoulOwl]

The Main thing is...make a decision,make it really fucking quick and commit to it.Chances are if your wasting time wondering if you can turn around,its already too late.

[helihobbit]

if you are on an airport with two directions @ ~90deg it should be possible to setup for a turn to the other RWY with less loss of height and a cross wind rather than a tailwind.

[LJDRVR]

An excellent discussion of this issue. One point he neglected is that if you look at an actual turn back to the airport, depending on geography, you are actually making something between a 180 and 360 degree turn. Most pilots do not do a good job mentally rehearsing and briefing each departure. Jason brings up an excellent point about the different phases of each takeoff. You should be making a concious transition between each of those scenarios - every takeoff.

[dingoklectos]

Great video. Its still a shame engines fail. When planes have 'redundant' systems. I always wondered why Engines don't have some back up in 21st century.

[mtoonsdale]

Redundant system: It's called a twin engine airplane. Stats show more fatalities following engine failures in GA twins than singles, though. GA pilots do a poorer job of flying twin engine aircraft after an engine failure than they do at making forced off-field landings in singles.

[dingoklectos]

@mtoonsdale

twin engine propellers were not designed for redundancy, they were designed for performance. and it is true, they still perform poorly compared to a twin engine business jet...

i have known someone who died from a left engine failure of a twin because he was not proficient with the recovery procedures (including checklist).

[dingoklectos]

@mtoonsdale

There is a patent for a control system that takes care of the adverse yaw, pitching the propellerblade etc, but the govt didn't make it mandatory due to cost...what a shame

[89Sunbird]

@mtoonsdale If one engine fails, you'll always have enough power to get to the scene of the crash ;)

[germb747]

@mtoonsdale I think it's all in how you approach it if you fly a twin. If you're going to load your airplane to the max and operate out of high altitude airports, you have to know the second engine will only fly you to the scene of the accident. On the other hand, if you practice single ops regularly, keep loads light, and operate at sea level, a twin can provide a safety advantage over a single. Know your performance capability.

[nothingfreeanymore]

"...add a 25% savety factor" - how savety are the woods in front of you?

[PaulUmbarger]

My instructor took us off the runway and made the turn with simulated engine failure at 1,000 MSL/800 AGL. I saw that it could be done quite safely in a C-172 but, I would still rather have an engine not go out in the first place.

[keeevan]

having your engine idle is much different that having a unfeathered prop windmilling

[PaulUmbarger]

Very true. I'm glad that I learned that it "could" be done but, I wouldn't attempt it unless I was taking off over hot lava or houses. It's a nice trick to have in your bag but, not one that you'd ever really want to have to use.

[CFITOMAHAWK2]

It is impossible under certain altitudes or if a shallow climb, or pulling too much and stalling. But if you know, you can real bring most airplanes back if you know all the details of this Question Mark shaped turn. I had to do two for real and my students have three. One of them partial power at 250' feet agl.(lost one cylinder and could not climb over 250'). No damages. The CFI-I with him yelled him to crash it on a road (wires). He told him to shut up, he knew better and landed tailwind.

[andyshangar]

Ditto. Very good. I've played with the notion in an advanced UL amphib, where speed decay is dramatically sped up.

The first step is to shove the nose over, of course: in many UL acft a normal 4-sec reaction time will place the acft near stall speed from climb attitude, after power loss.

It is counter-intuitive, filling up the windscreen with ground to quickly achieve maneuvering speed.

And, to keep the speed up on final: a decrease in pitch can decay speed to where flare is impossible.

[keeevan]

who needs a flare when its an emergency

[andyshangar]

Good question, and I can't retrieve the perfect link to demonstrate why this is important.

In the clip, a Piper clears the trees after engine failure, splashes into a lake.

To a non-pilot, case closed: success. After all, the plane misses the trees and impacts the water, stays upright, comes to an abrupt halt. But, pilot and passengers all had critical spinal injuries.

In short, it is paramount to have flare energy. Deaths have resulted from overlooking this crucial fact.

[acropilot300]

Excellent discussion of the Possible turn.