It's not always the greatest champions who give turf afficionados the biggest thrills. I found watching Gunsynd and Vo Rogue race more moving than watching a Kingston Town or Sunline thrash their opposition...
@Baskerville22 Good point, my friend. Mind you, Gunsynd would qualify as a champion miler. In 1971 he became the only horse ever to win all of our great mile events in the one year: The Epsom Hcp with 8st 10lbs, The Toorak Hcp (9.3), the George Adams Handicap (now the The Emirates Stks (9.3) and The Doncaster Handicap (9.7). Vo Rogue and Stylish Century were amazing, weren't they. Do you remember Pirate Bird and Hambledon?
@SvendBosanvovski Yes, i remember Pirate bird & Hambledon. For a while there I thought Hambledon was going to be something supernatural. I recall hearing him win a race (Canterbury 1900M, i think) around 40 years ago, by 15-20 lengths. Not sure if he broke down but he was a real shooting star for a few months. . Pirate Bird was the real tearaway (there was a similar Melb. horse but I can't recall his name, just now )....and would either win, or cave in before the straight.
@Baskerville22 Yes, Hambledon looked like he was going to do great things. His connections took him to Melbourne for the 67 Autumn carnival and he ran third to Queenslander Bore Head, Caufield Cup winner in 65, in the Australian Cup. I think he did breakdown. Was Brave Chief the one you had forgotten. He got around the old Sandown 2400m course in 2m 24.3 in 2000! Still the Australasian record.
Yes, I remember Grecian Vale. Sydney 'Welter' type. Raced around the mid-late 1960s. I loved a Sydney sprinter called AUREO around that time. I remember countless good Brisbane sprinters from the 1960s - Boom Gate, Firebox, Emborne.... Still trying to remember that Melbourne tear-away stayer (1980s)
@Baskerville22 Spot on! I remember Aureo. Didn't he have a full brother named Farnsworth racing at the same time? He used to come home like a train. In remember the Bribane sprinter you mention, but here are two only real postillions will remember - Red Seas and Prunda. That will stir the amnesia. And how about that might old stager who raced in Melbourne abut then - Samson. Remember him?
I remember Samson: he won a heap of 7 furlong WFA races over several years. Red seas at Albion Park, of course. He could be tailed off 15 lengths last with 2 furlongs to go...and still bolt in. Prunda was Brisbane's favourite - one of those horses who gave 100% every start. Lester Piggott won an International Stakes (10 furlongs) on him. I remember Farnsworth...but don't know about the Aureo connection. Do you remember the great Melb. sprinters, Maritana, Marmion, Ripa?
@Baskerville22 Yes, I remember them all, especially Marmion. There was a big debate as to whether he or Time and Tide was the best sprinter in Australia. Time and Tide looked very special, but broke down. remeber the following year when Citius was being hailed as our best ever female sprint. Tha was stright after Wenona Girl retired, and Barts greatest three year old filly Strom Queen won 8 on the trot. The Rippa won the Newmarket, and I think Maritana went to Queensland and won the 10,000.
Going back to your recollections about Samson. There was another Melb. sprinter/middle-distance type who had great longervity - raced not long after Samson's days - and though not reaching the heights of the former, was a magnificent 'old-stager', usually racing under huge weights - Alcatraz.. That one might test you...
@Baskerville22 I do remember him. I think he originally came from South Australia just as I was really getting interested in racing - about 1963-65. He was a good welter horse, but I don't think he won any black type races. Some of my old favoutites from that era. Do you remember River Sceine? Persian Puzzle? And the only horse I have ever backed on the nose at 100/1 (single bet) and collected - Carnival?
@SvendBosanvovski I remember River Seine. He beat my Winfreux in the Doomben Cup, the year year before Winfreux won it. He was a bit of a "gay deceiver" as was the term back then. We've previously discussed old Persian Puzzle... Carnival " sydney middle distance horse, 1970s ? I've backed a few 100/1 winners. Ton of Cheek down the Flem. 'straight 6'. Fernando in a 7-horde race at warwick farm. Got a little 125/1.. he led all the way. Stan's Pride in the mud at Sandown.
Going back to Grecian Vale. He was a fixture in the last race on the programme at Sydney meetings - possibly because they scheduled the Welters as the final events
@Baskerville22 Yes, that's so. His longevity was like Mustard's. This brings us full cirle to you proposition about the enjoyment real racing fans get out of horses that don't make it too the big time. We love their quirky characters, their courage, or fighting spirit. The horse headed in the straight that fights back to win a welter, or gallops on until almost 13. Remember Persian Puzzle? My grandmother loved the races, and all her favourites were grey, like her. She did well on old PP.
I remember Winfreux's then 11 furlongs world record (Doomben cup). I seem to recall that his connections made the crazy decision to run him in the Melb. Cup...and he didn't come back after that, though he had 5 great seasons by then.
@Baskerville22 He loved the Queensland Winter Carnival. Yes, they did race him in the Cup as a five years old, but did manage to win 8 races the following season, 7 of which were stakes races. He scored a wonderful win in the Mackinnon Stakes in 1967 you may recall, probably dodging Tobin Bronze before he went to the US.
@SvendBosanvovski Tobin Bronze's Doncaster win, beating Cabochon (a great miler) was one of the classic wins & a great race call by 'magic eye' Ken Howard. Howard was the most exciting racecaller I heard. Vince Curry probably the most accurate.
@Baskerville22 Cabochon won the Epsom and Stradbroke. I remember him as an impressive chestnut with a great fighting spirit. For Tobin Bronze to have given so much weight to him and still win shows what a great horse TB was. TB aquitted himself reasonably well in the US. He won 4 our of 16, placed in 5 others, but was racing against the best, often in Handicaps or unsuitable dirt track. Did you know he lived to 34. That big heart refused to stop!
I remember Tobin starting a very short-priced fav. in the Caulfield cup (maybe his 3-y.o. year), leading around the home turn then compounding badly to miss the place. The next year he killed them..
@Baskerville22 You have a good memory, my friend. I seem to recall he was odds on in the betting (8/11)? He also raced in two Melbourne Cups, as a three and four year old, and was unplaced both times. You'll remember his first great rival was Prince Grant. The each won the VRC and AJC Derbys, as they then were, by big margins. TB soon put pay to that rivalry, and along came Galilee, a truely great champion that unfortunately broke down, missed a season, and never regained his greatness.
@Baskerville22 Yes I remember him. He raced in the early 70s, won a Herbert Power, and just loved to get way out in front. I think you will need to go back closer to 40 years for good old Scotch and Dry. By the way, I bought a wonderful book on the history of Australian Horse racing last weekend. It has special articles on some of those great old forgotten champions: Vo Rogue, Samson, and Winfreux, to name a few. Its about the same size as the 150th Melbourne Cup book. Same price.
I have never seen a greater sprinter than Vain. I have no doubt that no horse in the world could have matched him as a three year old. Manikato was practically unbeatable for many seasons. Scillarchi, Placid Arc, Todman and Hareeba were all greater sprinters than Takeover Target, but none of them travelled to the far corners of the globe to race against the best. That is where Takeover Target distinguished himself. Stay home champions maintain a mystique for that reason.
@FANS THE AUSTRALIAN: FANS of Australia's best sprinters outclassed in Hong Kong showdown Brendan Cormick From: The Australian December 14, 2009 12:00AM Australian sprinters All Silent, Scenic Blast and Apache Cat were left disappointed after misfortune intervened in their assault on the Hong Kong International Sprint All three wound up out of the placings.
@kelletman It is acknowledged that our sprinters often find it difficult to compete in Hong Kong. The three you mentioned ran many length below their best. Miss Andretti finished near last the year she competed. This is the filly that smashed the course record at Ascot and outclassed the Eurpoeans. We take great pride when Australian breds are rated the best in the world irrespective of where they race or are trained. In 10 years, the Hong King Sprint has only been won by Aussie breds.
@SvendBosanvovski I acknowledge that these sprinters have been bred in Australia but have, but credit must be given to HK for having the best sprinters in the world for 7 out of the last 10 years, HK is only a small area but look how many great sprinters are in HK, not just the 3 we have been talking about, both countries should be very proud of these horses, these horse do represent HK when running but Australia can take alot of pride in these horses too.
@kelletman I agree with you. The throughbred industry in Hong Kong has bounded ahead over the past two decades, and as you know, Australian trainers, jockeys and horses have been part of that development. I drove past the stud near Taree where Silent Witness saw the light of day and remembered with particular satisfaction the day he completed his great sequence of wins. But this is TakeoverTarget's tribute page, and he did beat Silent Witness emphatically the only time they met.
@kelletman TT beating S W by 3L in the Sprinters Stakes that year does not mean a great deal as SW was a shadow of his former self and had not won a race for 12 months, the fact that Scintillation had already beaten SW by 5 1/2L that year tells you everything as Scintillation could not live with SW when SW was at his peak, but if we are to judge SW in his declining years, then it is only fair we do the same with Takeover Target and look at the Krisflyer and TT race with SK.
@kelletman Truely great throughbreds exhibit durability, versatility, great acceleration and, in some cases, a high cruising speed. A horse capable of travelling all over the world, and in his aged years, consistently rates from 119 to 122 against the very best, deserves the highest accolades. You know the story: he was untrainable in those years that should have been his best. The world saw him at 6 and 7. I remember the day he won his first group on (Salinger) as a five year old...
@SvendBosanvovski Silent Witness was 3 time World Champion and had 17 straight wins to his name 8 being G1 and he was posting blistering time figures at his peak, that shows great durability and acceleration and a high cruising speed and puts him in the same league as Golikova & Mystique, Goldikova never beat Zarkava yet you are saying Goldikova is a better horse because she won races abroad? Cape of Good Hope treveled all over the world winning G1 races, but he never beat Silent Witness.
@kelletman I don't doubt that he was one of the best sprinters in the world in his day, but he was never declared world champion. He was ranked the best on turf for two seasons by IFHA from 2003-2005. In 2003 was behind Oasis Dream (125) and ranked equal to Choisir 121. There were also US dirt sprinters ranked above him in 2004. GOGH rated from 115-117, below Choisir, Fastnet Rock (118), and Takeover Target (119-120).
@SvendBosanvovski The highest rated horse is often described as the World Champion in the media, you have a number of world champion at different distances some on turf some on dirt, Form lines between Oasis Dream & The Tatling does not give O D a cat in hells chance of beating S W. Oasis Dreams only beat The Taling 2 1/2 L in the Nunthorp 2003 but Silent Witness beat The Tatling by 5 1/2 L in the HK Sprint 2003 and by 16L the following year when Silent Witness was at is best.
@kelletman The expert international rating panel considers the highest levels attained by horses, and would discount circumstances where they clearly underperformed. I might argue with its assessment of Oasis Dream compares with Choisir that year. He won the King Stand and Golden Jubilee, beating Oasis Dream in the latter. However, the panel considered the July Cup to have been decisive and assessed Oasis Dream's as the best turf sprinter in the World that year.
@SvendBosanvovski I agree with you in regard to the panel, if you say Choisir & Oasis Dream ran to form, then it is 1 race each and nothing between them, but if you take it 1 step further and say the Tatling ran to form in the Nunthorp and the HK Sprint then SW comes out on top, and is 3L better than Choisir & Oasis Dream, one is a matter of opinion by a panel the other is a matter of FACT
@kelletman Of course, when you are doing the form, you won't look at a single run. You will be mindful of the form cycles horses go through, try to identify peak performances and see what a horse is capable of on its best days. Taking a line through The Tatling's Hong Kong and Nunthorp runs is a bit artificial. Do you think Sacred Kingdom should have been demoted after failing in the Golden Jublilee? Of course not. The horses that beat him couldn't get anywhere near his 123 rating.
@SvendBosanvovski You have evidence that SK form was all wrong, you just have to look at horses that run in the Jubilee and the HK sprint, everybody knows Sacred Kingdom had problems that year, you just have to look at his HK races to see that, and having a hard race plus smashing the course record in the krisflyer did not hel,p something TT could not do, then having to run up to her best in the Jublee was asking too much, but he did prove the form all wrong something the Tatling did not do>>>
@kelletman As I have said, all horses go through cycles and will not necessarily produce their best everytime they step onto the track. Truely great champions, like Manikato, sustain greatness over many seasons. I agree that SW never fully recovered from his virus, and am aware of SK's issues. SK achieved one of the highest ever international rating for a turf sprinter.
@SvendBosanvovski if you say the Tatling ran below his best you could argue that Silent Witness ran below his best too as S W beat the Tatling the following year by 16L & you could argue that the Tatling went into the HK sprint the following year in the form of his life having just come second in the Abbaye 2004 and reversing the form with Patavellian who had won the Abbaye in 2003 Silent Witness proved he was the best when he did not run up to his best he was still far clear of the rest.>>>
@kelletman The Tatling was not among the first rank, but failing in one race means nothing. Horses can put in a gut busting run and rate very highly, and in the following contest rate many lengths lower. Leading Australian form analyst and founder of Centre bet, Mark Reid wrote extensively on that subject. Understanding that phenomenon will improve your betting strategy.
@SvendBosanvovski I take your point about traveling, but just because a horse does not travel does not mean it cannot, and just because a horse does and wins races abroad does not make it better than a horse that does not. if you were right Cape of Good Hope would have beaten Silent Witness as he ran to a good level of form in Europe winning the Jubilee, 2nd in a King Stand he won G1 race in Australia he as won the Global Sprint Challenge in 2005,>>>
@kelletman I don't take issue with any of that in principle, but we cannot guage the relative merits of horses unless they meet face to face on equal ground. Horses travelling to HK are clearly disadvantaged. They have limited time to acclimatise, are racing on a synthetic track, and for Aussie sprinters in particular, are usually racing after competing our Spring racing and asked to peak again. Horses are not machines and will ot alwyas produce their best.
@SvendBosanvovski he as beaten TT twice and was runner up to that horse only beaten 1L , but COGH was always totally outclassed by Silent Witness. if Silent Witness had gone to the King Stands or the Jubilee he would only have had to run to his worst form lines with COGH to have dominated those race and on the best form lines with COGH he would have blitzed the Jubilee & King Stand
@kelletman COGH was obviouly a very tough horse and may have beaten SW in the UK. It depends upon how they adjusted to the travel. Takeover Target was not the best sprinter Australia has produced by a longshot, but he was as tough as teak and could adapt to the rigours of travel. The mighty Kingston Town, the best thoroughbred I have see in the flesh, was beaten in Melbourne in his early days because he had difficulty racing anti-clockwise. All these factors count aginst the traveller.
@SvendBosanvovski COGH would never have beaten SW no matter what country the 2 raced in, you say COGH was tough but SW was tougher because he beat COGH 11 time without a loss, even when both horses went to Japan for the Sprinters Stakes SW beat COGH 5 1/2 L so the traveling did not affect SW at his peak, COGH is a good yard stick to the European and Australian form and it only goes to show how good the sprinters are in HK as COGH was never regarded as the best sprinter in HK
@SvendBosanvovski so when you try and knock the standard in HK you should bear that in mind. Cigar was a great horse to win so many races on the trot, top American horses often ovoid each other so not all of cigar races were of the highest quality, but he was a very good and tough horse to win so many races, and when he was asked to beat the best he did, and the same thing can be said of Silent Witness he was beating horses like COGH and the great National Currency for fun to name just a few
@SvendBosanvovski SW only lost his unbeaten record when he was moved up to a mile and lost is form after contracting a virus in Japan. you make excuses for your top sprinters not taking down the top sprinters trained in HK, but many horses from Europe win races in HK and Australian trained horses have won races in the UK which is much further awayfrom Australa than HK,trainers often target races and train horses accordingly that is why many horses win >
@SvendBosanvovski races all over the world at different times of the year
, , so this is not a major obstacle. Winning races abroad only shows you are tough and can travel, Silent Witness showed this by winning 17 races 8 being G1s over 3 years without being beaten and he also ran 2 great races in Japan before contracting a virus.
@SvendBosanvovski The reason Silent Witness won 17 races in a row 8 of which were G1 races was because he was better than all the rest even on his worst day. but he did get a virus after his sprinters stakes win in Japan and was never the same horse after returning to HK. Silent Witness did more in those 3 years at the top than most horses do in 2 life times claiming the modern world record winning streak from the North American greats, Citation and Cigar.
@kelletman All due respect SW was no Citation, and comparisons with Cigar are odious. Cigar was hopeless on turf, as you know, but was able to win over a range of distances on dirt tracks. Citation was one of the greastest thoroughbred the world has seen. He had a Time Form rating of 147 and was rated only behing Man o War and Secretariat. I met an old maritime worker when I was a boy and asked him whether Phar Lap was the greatest horse he'd seen. He said, "yeah, bar one - Citation"
@SvendBosanvovski the tatling was not the best but he was a good yard stick at his best and had good form lines with TT, COGH had good form lines wiih TT but in 11 races with Silent Witness was always beaten easely
@kelletman He knew his horses and had seen both in the flesh, incuding Phar Lap's phenomenal Sydney win when he smashed every Australian record over a mile in a 2.5 mile event. When in the States, he saw Citation string together his great sequence of 16 stake wins against the very best in a highly competitive racing nation. Citation raced as an aged horse and was eventually beaten - twice in 29 races! Now that's greatness.
@SvendBosanvovskiBut Cape of Good Hope had 3 races against Takeover Target and the score is 2 to 1 in Cape of Good Hope favour, in one of those races COGH was giving TT 9Ib and a 3 L beating, TT did beat COGH once by 1 L, but under your reasoning TT had home advantage as all these races were in TT back yard, but COGH had 11 races against Silent Witness and never got closer than 1 3/4 L to SW and Silent Witness as blown COGH away many times once by 8L in blistering times, 1L beating of COGH >>
@kelletman COGH has the good fortune of meetin Takeover Target when that horse hit a slump in form. He couldn't beat Glamour Puss - handly, but not a champion. His ratings of 115-117 put him below the very best. As I have said, SW was obviously a very great sprinter, but apart from Japan, let the competition come into his backyard and race him over his best course and distance. Travelling comes with it own perils, and dis advantages the visitors.
@SvendBosanvovski> would not have cut it against SW at his best, If we take a look at Scintillation form with SW we will see Scintillation beat SW twice towards the end of SW career, Scinillation had 5 1/2 lengths in hand over SW compared to the 3L TT beat SW in the Sprinters Stakes, Scintillation also beat SW in SW final race before retirement, the winning margin was again 5 1/4 L giving Scintillation 2 1/4 & 2 1/2 L in hand over TT in the Sprinters Stakes on a strict line through >>
@kelletman I agree that Takeover Target may not have beaten SW over 1200m at Sha Tin when that horse was at his very best. But how would SW have gone in the Golden Jubilee Sprint in the wet? Racing up the 1400m rise at Randwck and then switching to the opposite direction in the wet at Caufield, before careening down Straight Six at Flemington, where horse capable of 10 sec per furlong pour the pressure on from the start to crack the faster horses.
@SvendBosanvovski SW and the Sprinters Stakes, you may say Scintillation had improved past SW but this theory does not stand up to scrutiny if you look at the the blistering times of 55 s and 1m 8..40s that SW was posting at his peak those races all at Sha tin, You can even look at the time SW posted in the Sprinters Stakes in the year prior to TT winning the race, the time of SW was much faster & SW also beat She Is Tosha further than TT did giving her a 1Ib more on the same going, that >>
@kelletman I have no doubt that Sacred KIngdom could have done all that. He was (is) one of the greatest sprinters I have seen. Times are not everything. I remember a horse (Ubetido) that held every 1200m on Sydney tracks bar one. When he went in against the group one horses, he alway failed ebevn though the times were considerably slower. It seems like a paradox, but somes down to the class factor. Great horses can run fast times, but fast times do not make great horses.
@kelletman The pace in the race and the track surface have a huge bearing on this. Fast early horses create a platform that allows the closers to sit behind, avoiding drag and conserving energy, before completing fast final sectional and a quick overall time. Similarly, if the track is dry and fast, rather than, say dead, the same horse can run a second (or 5 lens) faster. A head wind produces drag and slowes down the whole field. A tail wind does the opposite. Times are misleading.
@SvendBosanvovski The only reason Silent Witness did not win races in the UK or Australia is because he was not sent there to run, it is far harder to win 17 races on the trot 8 being G1 in HK than to win races in the UK or Australia, COGH proved that as he won the Jubilee and a G1 in Australia and finished in front of TT twice, he even won Global Sprint Challenge in 2005 yet he could not win a G1 in HK , as the standard in HK out of the top draw, no horse trained out side of HK >>>
@kelletman You need to remember that Silent Witness, Absolute Champion and Sacred Kingdom (and a few of your other good sprinters) would have raced here had they not been purchased as young horses and raced in Hong Kong. They would have met the challenges all our great sprinters have. Even the mightly Manikato and Vain were beaten on off days. If Manikato had only raced at, say, Caufield and Mooney Valley at WFA, he would have won 25 on the trot.
@SvendBosanvovski, You seem to foget that no horse trained outside HK as won the HK sprint since it was made a G1, it as been tageted by the worlds best sprinters, yet Silent Witness as won 2 HK sprints within his 17 wins beating great horses into the bargain, the standard in HK is amongst the best in the world and Manikato or Vain would have been lucky to win any G1 in HK let alone any contested by the big 3 , If S W had been running at Caufield, Mooney V, his record would be unbeatable.
@kelletman@kelletman You jest when you speak of Manikato and Vain that way. All of our sprinters who have impressed the Europeans were not in their class. Australian Timeform, for example, has Manikato rated at 136 and Vain at 134. The great kiwi mare, Sunline was 129, and you know what she did - beat Hong Kong great and Aussie bred Fairy Kingprawn. World beaters Miss Andretti (127), Choisir (126) and Takeover Target (126) would have struggled against those two great sprinters.
@SvendBosanvovski Miss Andretti was beaten 12 1/2 L by Sacred Kingdom yet MA on a line with Benbaun MA ran within 4 L of her Ascot form in the HK sprint, so at worst that makes SK 8 L better than MA, I find it odd that all these great Sprinters can run great races all over the world but cannot touch base in HK, it seems to me many of these great Australian sprinters have been overrated or the HK trained sprinters have been vastly underated because many form lines show HK sprinters >>>
@kelletman You make excuses for SW & SK, but fail to acknowledge that those failyures were excusable. Miss Andretti was never any good after her win in the King Stand Stakes. The Freedmans retired her after seeing her soundly beaten on her resumption. Make no mistake. In her prime, she was probably the greatest sprinting mare on turf in the world in modern times. When your sprinter travel and are regularly tested against the best, as ours have been, we will see how good they are.
@SvendBosanvovski top of the pile,, in the 2007 HK sprint the first 5 horses were all HK trained, it is hard to compare great horses from the past but if all these great sprinters got in a race all in peak form, it would be one hell of a race.
@kelletman The IFHA is the last word on respective merits. This prestigous body is composed of the finest official handicappers on the planet - people who have set the weight for the world's greatest group one races. Their rating are as reliable an assessment as we can get. The two Hong Kong horse we have mentioned were given the highest accolades, and other have been in the 110 - 117 range. That is about right. If they want to improve, they will need to travel.
@SvendBosanvovski all the form lines I have pointed are easy to read and to put HK sprinters way out in front, many great horses have never traveled far, Zarcava won all her races apart from one at Longchamp and never raced outside of the country, does that make Zarcava a bad horse.
@kelletman No it does not. And I have no doubt Deep Impact was the best horse on turf in the world when beaten in the Arc. He should have won, but he had a rather unusual preparation. If the whole of the Arc field had travelled to Japan and raced his there, he'd have won by panels. That's my point - loosing one race means nothing, but brilliantly winning one could mean everything. They are not machines.
@kelletman Finally, I was remined yesterday od Sunline's defeat in the George Main in 1998 (Choisir was also beaten at odd on in the first or second race that day). There was a 60km/hr headwind, which made it impossible for front runners to win that day - even champions. The leaders are hit with the full effect of drag, while those sitting behind enjoy the slip stream. It is why Defiers time was about 3 second slower than the great mare could run any day of the week. Something to ponder.
@SvendBosanvovski as won the HK sprint since 2002 when it was upgraded to G1 status and only 5 horses trained outside HK have finished in the first 4 in that time. yet it as been targeted by leading horses from all over the world including Australia and Europe.
@kelletman Hometown advantage. It is challenging enough having to race at that level, but to survive the flight, re-adjust to new stabling conditions, race on unfamiliar surfaces, and experience dietary changes imposes further challenges. They loose weight and go off their food. Two of our horses almost died on the flight to Japan to race in its great cup - Saintly and Sky Chase. They developed respiratory problems from having to remain confined for long hours on the flight there.
@SvendBosanvovski Many trainers in the UK have stated that their horses have thrived when going to HK for the Cathay Pacific International races, these races are run in December so it is very fair for overseas horses as the weather is very mild in HK at that time of year, just like a English summer without the rain, many horse from abroad do well in HK for this reason, but the HK sprint is always dominated by HK trained horses, even when Silent Witness, Absolute Champion or Sacred Kingdom >>
@kelletman I saw them in the flesh, and I still get goosebumps thinking about it. Vain's one rival - if you can call him that - Kiwi, Daryl's Joy, won the Cox Plate before going to the US, where he won group races over longer distances. He looked ordinary against Vain. You will find Youtube postings of Manikato in full flight. He was something to behold. I dont think he was ever ridden out with the whip.
@SvendBosanvovski >have not run another HK trained sprinter as stepped up to the plate and blown the overseas trained horses away, this proves the quality of the horses in HK, you very seldom get extreme conditions in HK and all top trainers make sure their horses are fed on their own food now and their weight & blood is checked prior to racing, Rocket Man as just been pulled out of the Sprinters Stakes because he lost some weight but Green Birdie had not problem going to Singapore or Japan.
@kelletman You seem reluctant to appreciate that these horses, including Rocket Man, being Australian bred, are out of the same mixed gene pool as our best sprinters. They would have been among our best had they been knocked down to Australian owners. Go though the list of the best Honker's horses and you will find that most, not all, have the smell of gum leaves and wattle in their fur. I have a question for you: do you know what happend to Octagonals brother Mouwad?
@SvendBosanvovski Breeding is a international game, you just have to look at the breeding of every top sprinter in Australa and you do find it's roots in Europe US & Asia, you could just say these horses are coming back home as horses are not a Native species to Australa but all were imported at some point, just like HK is importing them now, so you just have to let go and say these horses are running for HK now and not Australia as these horses are owned , trained & run in HK.
@kelletman Yes, that is so. The bloodlines need to be constantly replenished, which is why shuttling stallions has become a necessity. They mix their genes with the existing gene stock. The reason Australian bred sprinters have reached the top of the tree is largely attributable to the emphasis on speed in our 2yo races. The Golden Slipper is the richest 2yo race in the world now, and there are many races for that age arroubnf d it that can guarantee quick returns for a fast horse.
@kelletman@kelletman You seem reluctant to appreciate that these horses, including Rocket Man, being Australian bred, are out of the same mixed gene pool as our best sprinters. They would have been among our best had they been knocked down to Australian owners. Go though the list of the best Honker's horses and you will find that most, not all, have the smell of gum leaves and wattle in their fur. I have a question for you: do you know what happened to Octagonals brother Mouwad?
@kelletman I don't denigate these great Aussie bred HK horses. Every Aussie racing fan adored Maybe Diva and Sunline. The former was bred in the UK and trained by Aussies, the former in New Zealand & trained by a Kiwi. MIght and Power was Kiwi by birth, raised in Australia & trained by the late, great Jack Denham. We can all take pride & rejoice in the fact that we were alive to see these phenomenal animals do exceptional things. Then there is Phar Lap & Tulloch, etc, ... Kiwis trained here.
@kelletman ...At that age, most class sprinters are ready for the retirement paddock. But not Takeover. He had that flat spot I mentioned earlier, and then came back to win the Global Sprint Challenge. No Hong Kong Horse has done that, and Starspangledbanner is now rated the equal of Sacred KIngdom, because he has beaten the best in their backyard.
@SvendBosanvovski Hong Kong trained Cape of Good Hope won the Global Sprint Challenge in 2005, past winners Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Scenic Blast, all blown away in Hong Kong, these horses could not beat the second string horses in HK never mind the best.
@kelletman 2007 IFHA ratings had Miss Andretti and Takeover target at 120, and Absooute Champion (formerly Australian Genius and Evil) the best turf sprinter in the world at 121. She never recovered from her trip to the UK before she raced in HK, failed when she came back to Oz and was retired. That run means nothing. She was the greatest sprinting mare in the world in 2007. Her King Stands Stakes win was monumental. She made the best spinters in Europe look like welter handicap performers.
@SvendBosanvovski Hong Kong trained Cape of Good Hope won the Global Sprint Challenge in 2005, past winners Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Scenic Blast, all blown away in Hong Kong, these horses could not beat the second string horses in HK never mind the best., starspangledbanner as won 2 G1 races and was turned over by 100 shot then Markab ran him off his feet, he will get distroyed like all the rest if he goes to HK,
@kelletman Scenic Blast bled in Hong Kong and was retired, before they sent him to the US. He was rates the equal best sprinter in the world with Sacred Kingdom (122) after his King Stand Stakes win, with Apache Cat and Takeover Target at 119. That was Starspangledbanner's third group one against world class fields. He is now rated best sprinter in the world (122), so the IFHA clearly don't agree with you, nor do the European handicappers who have given him the highest Timeform rating.
@Baskerville22 Yes. A mighty horse of the late 60s. I remember him well, and with great affection. He was consistent at the highest level and exceptionally versatile, winning from 5.5f to 11f, and placed at 12f at WFA. He had the misfortune of running into the two of our greatest ever, Galilee and Tobin Bronze. He ran the fastest 11f in the world in 1965 and was second twice in the Cox Plate. They are the horses, along with the mighty Vain, that captured my imagination as a boy.
given the other a race on their day. these 3 horses are my favorite sprinters maybe my head say's Sacred Kingdom then again Sacred Kingdom did not win 17 straight win's, but then again in 2006 Absolute Champion smashed a 21-year-old track record when he careered down the inside rail for a stunning success in the Premier Bowl, the second leg of the Premier Series, at Sha Tin on October 29, that year Absolute Champion was a great champion and second to none. HK as been very lucky with these horses
@kelletman All Aussie bred. It is a pity none of them came home to contest the Newmarket or Lightning Stakes. Sacred Kingdom had his chance at Ascot, running third in the Jubilee. He was red hot favourite and I thought he would show the world why he was the highest rated. Mine you, it is no easy task to travel and race the best on offer.
@SvendBosanvovski SK had a very hard race in the krisflyer, he had to pull out everything to peg back the Rocket Man and also ran that race in a new course record of 1m 7.80s, he later seemed to be running on empty in that the Jubilee, the Krisflyer must have taken alot out of SK as he later proved the Jubilee form to be all wrong when beating Cannonball (2nd in Jubilee) by 3 3/4 L in the HK sprint, SK was the World Champion Sprinter for 3 years because on his best form he was simple the best.
@kelletman Horses galloping in their own backyard have a huge advantage of those travelling great distances to compete. Issues of acclimitation, different stabling, dietary changes, interruption to training regime and weight loss due to the stress of travel are all obstacles the locals don't have to overcome. There is also the variation in track design and surfacing, and jockey familiarity with the track. The greats do it. Remember Sunline in the HK Mile?
@SvendBosanvovski I take on board what you are saying, Cape of Good Hope did win the Jubilee and did come 4th in the King Stands, did give weight in the lightning and did beat Takeover Target twice in his own back yard, but COGH could not beat Silent Witness in HK and that was COGH back yard too, Silent Witness just did not taget the races in the UK, SK just did not run is race in the UK because it had a very hard race in the Krisflyer and he had been injured that year and was not at his very>
@kelletman The two time COGH raced in Australia he did not meet Takeover Target. Those finishing behind him in both Australian races, with the exception of Spark of Life and Super Elegant, were not particularly memorable. On his run in the Australia Stakes, he could have won numerous group races here, which does frank Silent Witness' greatness. Silent Witness may have found a place among our top 10 greatest sprinters. Sacred Kingdom definately would have been up there with our top five.
@kelletman You are correct. COGH ran third to Glamour Puss in both races, and Takeover Target finished 4th and 7th. That was during a sequence when he was recovering from lameness and there was speculation he would be retired. Joe got him right and after a brilliant first up in Queensland, he went to the Melbourne Autumn Carnival and looked like a world beater. Glamour Puss was a very good filly, but couldn't match Takeover when they clashed in the Newmarket.
@SvendBosanvovski till later that year, you say these great sprinter come to the UK & win races, well that just goes to prove that races in HK & Australia are stronger than European races as you do not get horses from the UK going over there winning races, it just goes to prove the standard over there higher, but it is Hong Kong not Australia who have had the highest rated sprinter 7 times out of the last 10 years, Silent Witness,Abolute Champion & Sacred Kingdom.
@SvendBosanvovski I do not get the point, come home, these horses are trained in HK so are at home, The CATHAY PACIFIC HONG KONG SPRINT G1 is one of the best races in the world and second to none, the highest rated horses have contested this race, since 2002 when the HK sprint was upgraded to G1 status no horse trained out side of HK as won this race, Silent Witness was a 3 time world champion Absolute Champion a 1 time world champion & Sacred Kingdom a 3 time world Champion so the HK sprint >>
@kelletman Both Aussie bred, of course, and continued the great record of horses from this country in that event. No one could seriosuly take issue with you that these were three of the greatest sprinters of their day. It is a pity they didn't come down and contest the Newmarket and Lightning Stakes. Those event are now recognised as being of international standard, given the performances of Scenic Blast, Alinghi, Choisir, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, and Starspangled Banner in the UK.
@SvendBosanvovski >as been proven to be a world championship race often contested by the highest rated sprinter in the world, I do not think Cape of Good Hope avoided any horse as he often raced against Silent Witness then the highest rated horse, he was 4th in the King Stands & 1st in the Jubilee and won the Timbercorp Australia stakes and 3nd in the Lightning Stakes giving weight to the first 2, he won the Global Sprint Challenge in 2005 but could not live with SW in the Sprinters Stakes.
@kelletman The Australian Stakes was definately an easier option for him that year. Alinghi and Fastnet Rock were outstanding sprinters. Alinghi won the first of her two races in the US before experiencing the tendon trouble that finished her career. capr of Good Hope would nopt have beaten her in the Newmarket. Fastnet Rock went to Ascot, but broke down before competing. Same thing happened to Exceed and Excel. Three of his progeny finished second in the group races at York recently.
Silent Witness 17 Straight was something out of the very top draw, Cape Of Good Hope could not live with Silent Witness at is best, yet Cape of Good Hope won the inaugural Global Sprint Challenge series by winning the Australia Stakes in Australia and Golden Jubilee Stakes in the United Kingdom respectively. the time of Silent Witness are on a par with that of Sacked Kingdom in HK, lets do not forget Absolute Champion who was also a great sprinter in HK, I think each and every one would have >>
@kelletman I wouldn't denigrate Silent Witnesses achievements. I listened on the radio the day he competed his great sequence. He was clearly a very great sprinter, and highly consistent. The Australia Stakes that year was a consolation, Cape of Good Hope was beaten by Alinghi and Fastnet Rock in the Lightning and dodged them in the Newmarket. Fastnet Rock was every bit as good as Scenic Blast and Takeover Target, went to the UK but never got to compete. Alinghi went to the USA.
This race franked his greatness. To see him hit the lead with the great Silent Witness in chase was exhilarating. He simply dominated this brilliant field. I understand a movie is being planned, with Russell Crowe playing Joe Janiak. It will be hard to avoid descending into cliche, even with a great actor like Rusty. They should use the real Takeover Target - that has never been done with a movie of this type.
@SvendBosanvovski This was not the Silent Witness who won 17 straight wins, he had not won a race for 1 year, the last race he won was this race 12 months ago and he won it in 1m 7.30s compared to tTakeover Targets time of 1m08.10s both on firm going, on a strict line through Silent Wintness & Benbaun in the Hong Kong Sprint the world Champion sprinter Absolute Champion had 1 1/4 L in over Takeove Target.
@kelletman I agree the Silent Witness was passed his best, but so was Takeover Target. Silent Witness had the luxury of rarely leaving his regular stable and stacking together his sequence against the same limited group of rivals on two tracks. Takeover Target won in five countries and every State in Australia. Faster times is not conclusive - depends on early pace, etc. Sacred Kingdom is the best Hong Kong sprinter ever, and Fairy King Prawn had greater range.
@SvendBosanvovski in 2006 Takeover Target was at his very best, that is the year he won the King Stands and third in the Jubilee, then won the sprinters stakes, so unlike Silent Witness he was at his very best, but form lines with Benbaun at Ascot and in Japan make Asolute Champion the best horse in the world in 2006, Silent Witness 17 straight wins 8 are G1 wins and is a 3 time world Champion, Asolute Champion 1 time world champion, Sacred Kingdom 3 times world Champion.
@kelletman Takeover Target was a 6 year old when he gained the recognition you refer to. However, you make a good case. SW may have beaten Takeover in his prime, but we will never know now. Until the World Sprint Challenge these great Australian breds would never have been given proper recognition. When Choisir won at Ascot, it all changed. They thought he was a fluke, but not any more. It makes you wonder what Vain, Manikato, Placid Arc, and Hareeba might have done had they travelled.
@kelletman Why do you only make excuses for the "great" Hong Kong Sprinters and then fail to acknowlodge the more obvious excuses for the better Australian sprinters?
sad he's retired now but it had to happen eventually, I'm glad he gets to spend the rest of his days at the living legends farm. with his dodgy legs i was surprised his days didn't end on the track. i read in the paper there going to be making a movie about him, which would be good its a true rags to riches tale i think warrents telling on screen.
i am unable to wait to meet T.T at the Living Legends farm so i can meet him and talk to his carer about his victories on the track. What a horse he was!
Unfortunately Silent Witness was a shadow of his former self by this time. I would love to have seen he and TT at their respective bests duke it out. And I'm an Aussie. Love 'em both.
He will trounce them Saturday. He crushed Northern Meteor and Apache Cat... and they'd both be $2 favourites in the Goodwood. Takeover Target should be $1.10 and I think it will win by 5.
he is a champion. some people suggest a champion has to be dominant over a range of distances but in a world where too many horses are labeled champions, takeover target is a champion. he has done it all over the world beating anyone and everyone. his run in the TJ at randwick one of his best and hes 9 now.
This may have been his greatest win.
Constance861973 11 months ago
Trust the Japs to use cyborgs to call races
themightofmorgan 1 year ago 2
@themightofmorgan now thats very funny
cheekyred100 9 months ago
I've lost track of how many countries Takeover Target won in!
emmelby 1 year ago
It's not always the greatest champions who give turf afficionados the biggest thrills. I found watching Gunsynd and Vo Rogue race more moving than watching a Kingston Town or Sunline thrash their opposition...
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Good point, my friend. Mind you, Gunsynd would qualify as a champion miler. In 1971 he became the only horse ever to win all of our great mile events in the one year: The Epsom Hcp with 8st 10lbs, The Toorak Hcp (9.3), the George Adams Handicap (now the The Emirates Stks (9.3) and The Doncaster Handicap (9.7). Vo Rogue and Stylish Century were amazing, weren't they. Do you remember Pirate Bird and Hambledon?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Yes, i remember Pirate bird & Hambledon. For a while there I thought Hambledon was going to be something supernatural. I recall hearing him win a race (Canterbury 1900M, i think) around 40 years ago, by 15-20 lengths. Not sure if he broke down but he was a real shooting star for a few months. . Pirate Bird was the real tearaway (there was a similar Melb. horse but I can't recall his name, just now )....and would either win, or cave in before the straight.
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Yes, Hambledon looked like he was going to do great things. His connections took him to Melbourne for the 67 Autumn carnival and he ran third to Queenslander Bore Head, Caufield Cup winner in 65, in the Australian Cup. I think he did breakdown. Was Brave Chief the one you had forgotten. He got around the old Sandown 2400m course in 2m 24.3 in 2000! Still the Australasian record.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski No, it wasn't Brave chief. Old Bore Head was a gay deceiver...but on his day he could whip the best.
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Mustard's recent win got me thinking about the old stagers. Now this might test your memory. Do you remember old Grecian Vale?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski
Yes, I remember Grecian Vale. Sydney 'Welter' type. Raced around the mid-late 1960s. I loved a Sydney sprinter called AUREO around that time. I remember countless good Brisbane sprinters from the 1960s - Boom Gate, Firebox, Emborne.... Still trying to remember that Melbourne tear-away stayer (1980s)
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Spot on! I remember Aureo. Didn't he have a full brother named Farnsworth racing at the same time? He used to come home like a train. In remember the Bribane sprinter you mention, but here are two only real postillions will remember - Red Seas and Prunda. That will stir the amnesia. And how about that might old stager who raced in Melbourne abut then - Samson. Remember him?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski
I remember Samson: he won a heap of 7 furlong WFA races over several years. Red seas at Albion Park, of course. He could be tailed off 15 lengths last with 2 furlongs to go...and still bolt in. Prunda was Brisbane's favourite - one of those horses who gave 100% every start. Lester Piggott won an International Stakes (10 furlongs) on him. I remember Farnsworth...but don't know about the Aureo connection. Do you remember the great Melb. sprinters, Maritana, Marmion, Ripa?
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Yes, I remember them all, especially Marmion. There was a big debate as to whether he or Time and Tide was the best sprinter in Australia. Time and Tide looked very special, but broke down. remeber the following year when Citius was being hailed as our best ever female sprint. Tha was stright after Wenona Girl retired, and Barts greatest three year old filly Strom Queen won 8 on the trot. The Rippa won the Newmarket, and I think Maritana went to Queensland and won the 10,000.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski
Going back to your recollections about Samson. There was another Melb. sprinter/middle-distance type who had great longervity - raced not long after Samson's days - and though not reaching the heights of the former, was a magnificent 'old-stager', usually racing under huge weights - Alcatraz.. That one might test you...
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 I do remember him. I think he originally came from South Australia just as I was really getting interested in racing - about 1963-65. He was a good welter horse, but I don't think he won any black type races. Some of my old favoutites from that era. Do you remember River Sceine? Persian Puzzle? And the only horse I have ever backed on the nose at 100/1 (single bet) and collected - Carnival?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I remember River Seine. He beat my Winfreux in the Doomben Cup, the year year before Winfreux won it. He was a bit of a "gay deceiver" as was the term back then. We've previously discussed old Persian Puzzle... Carnival " sydney middle distance horse, 1970s ? I've backed a few 100/1 winners. Ton of Cheek down the Flem. 'straight 6'. Fernando in a 7-horde race at warwick farm. Got a little 125/1.. he led all the way. Stan's Pride in the mud at Sandown.
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22
Going back to Grecian Vale. He was a fixture in the last race on the programme at Sydney meetings - possibly because they scheduled the Welters as the final events
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Yes, that's so. His longevity was like Mustard's. This brings us full cirle to you proposition about the enjoyment real racing fans get out of horses that don't make it too the big time. We love their quirky characters, their courage, or fighting spirit. The horse headed in the straight that fights back to win a welter, or gallops on until almost 13. Remember Persian Puzzle? My grandmother loved the races, and all her favourites were grey, like her. She did well on old PP.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski
I remember Winfreux's then 11 furlongs world record (Doomben cup). I seem to recall that his connections made the crazy decision to run him in the Melb. Cup...and he didn't come back after that, though he had 5 great seasons by then.
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 He loved the Queensland Winter Carnival. Yes, they did race him in the Cup as a five years old, but did manage to win 8 races the following season, 7 of which were stakes races. He scored a wonderful win in the Mackinnon Stakes in 1967 you may recall, probably dodging Tobin Bronze before he went to the US.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Tobin Bronze's Doncaster win, beating Cabochon (a great miler) was one of the classic wins & a great race call by 'magic eye' Ken Howard. Howard was the most exciting racecaller I heard. Vince Curry probably the most accurate.
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Cabochon won the Epsom and Stradbroke. I remember him as an impressive chestnut with a great fighting spirit. For Tobin Bronze to have given so much weight to him and still win shows what a great horse TB was. TB aquitted himself reasonably well in the US. He won 4 our of 16, placed in 5 others, but was racing against the best, often in Handicaps or unsuitable dirt track. Did you know he lived to 34. That big heart refused to stop!
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski
I remember Tobin starting a very short-priced fav. in the Caulfield cup (maybe his 3-y.o. year), leading around the home turn then compounding badly to miss the place. The next year he killed them..
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 You have a good memory, my friend. I seem to recall he was odds on in the betting (8/11)? He also raced in two Melbourne Cups, as a three and four year old, and was unplaced both times. You'll remember his first great rival was Prince Grant. The each won the VRC and AJC Derbys, as they then were, by big margins. TB soon put pay to that rivalry, and along came Galilee, a truely great champion that unfortunately broke down, missed a season, and never regained his greatness.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski
I now remember that tearaway Melbourne syayer from 30 years ago - Scotch & Dry !
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Yes I remember him. He raced in the early 70s, won a Herbert Power, and just loved to get way out in front. I think you will need to go back closer to 40 years for good old Scotch and Dry. By the way, I bought a wonderful book on the history of Australian Horse racing last weekend. It has special articles on some of those great old forgotten champions: Vo Rogue, Samson, and Winfreux, to name a few. Its about the same size as the 150th Melbourne Cup book. Same price.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Of course, there was no 1900metres back then. It was 'furlongs'.
Baskerville22 1 year ago
I have never seen a greater sprinter than Vain. I have no doubt that no horse in the world could have matched him as a three year old. Manikato was practically unbeatable for many seasons. Scillarchi, Placid Arc, Todman and Hareeba were all greater sprinters than Takeover Target, but none of them travelled to the far corners of the globe to race against the best. That is where Takeover Target distinguished himself. Stay home champions maintain a mystique for that reason.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@FANS THE AUSTRALIAN: FANS of Australia's best sprinters outclassed in Hong Kong showdown Brendan Cormick From: The Australian December 14, 2009 12:00AM Australian sprinters All Silent, Scenic Blast and Apache Cat were left disappointed after misfortune intervened in their assault on the Hong Kong International Sprint All three wound up out of the placings.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman It is acknowledged that our sprinters often find it difficult to compete in Hong Kong. The three you mentioned ran many length below their best. Miss Andretti finished near last the year she competed. This is the filly that smashed the course record at Ascot and outclassed the Eurpoeans. We take great pride when Australian breds are rated the best in the world irrespective of where they race or are trained. In 10 years, the Hong King Sprint has only been won by Aussie breds.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I acknowledge that these sprinters have been bred in Australia but have, but credit must be given to HK for having the best sprinters in the world for 7 out of the last 10 years, HK is only a small area but look how many great sprinters are in HK, not just the 3 we have been talking about, both countries should be very proud of these horses, these horse do represent HK when running but Australia can take alot of pride in these horses too.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman I agree with you. The throughbred industry in Hong Kong has bounded ahead over the past two decades, and as you know, Australian trainers, jockeys and horses have been part of that development. I drove past the stud near Taree where Silent Witness saw the light of day and remembered with particular satisfaction the day he completed his great sequence of wins. But this is TakeoverTarget's tribute page, and he did beat Silent Witness emphatically the only time they met.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@kelletman TT beating S W by 3L in the Sprinters Stakes that year does not mean a great deal as SW was a shadow of his former self and had not won a race for 12 months, the fact that Scintillation had already beaten SW by 5 1/2L that year tells you everything as Scintillation could not live with SW when SW was at his peak, but if we are to judge SW in his declining years, then it is only fair we do the same with Takeover Target and look at the Krisflyer and TT race with SK.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman Truely great throughbreds exhibit durability, versatility, great acceleration and, in some cases, a high cruising speed. A horse capable of travelling all over the world, and in his aged years, consistently rates from 119 to 122 against the very best, deserves the highest accolades. You know the story: he was untrainable in those years that should have been his best. The world saw him at 6 and 7. I remember the day he won his first group on (Salinger) as a five year old...
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Silent Witness was 3 time World Champion and had 17 straight wins to his name 8 being G1 and he was posting blistering time figures at his peak, that shows great durability and acceleration and a high cruising speed and puts him in the same league as Golikova & Mystique, Goldikova never beat Zarkava yet you are saying Goldikova is a better horse because she won races abroad? Cape of Good Hope treveled all over the world winning G1 races, but he never beat Silent Witness.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman I don't doubt that he was one of the best sprinters in the world in his day, but he was never declared world champion. He was ranked the best on turf for two seasons by IFHA from 2003-2005. In 2003 was behind Oasis Dream (125) and ranked equal to Choisir 121. There were also US dirt sprinters ranked above him in 2004. GOGH rated from 115-117, below Choisir, Fastnet Rock (118), and Takeover Target (119-120).
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski The highest rated horse is often described as the World Champion in the media, you have a number of world champion at different distances some on turf some on dirt, Form lines between Oasis Dream & The Tatling does not give O D a cat in hells chance of beating S W. Oasis Dreams only beat The Taling 2 1/2 L in the Nunthorp 2003 but Silent Witness beat The Tatling by 5 1/2 L in the HK Sprint 2003 and by 16L the following year when Silent Witness was at is best.
hest
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman The expert international rating panel considers the highest levels attained by horses, and would discount circumstances where they clearly underperformed. I might argue with its assessment of Oasis Dream compares with Choisir that year. He won the King Stand and Golden Jubilee, beating Oasis Dream in the latter. However, the panel considered the July Cup to have been decisive and assessed Oasis Dream's as the best turf sprinter in the World that year.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I agree with you in regard to the panel, if you say Choisir & Oasis Dream ran to form, then it is 1 race each and nothing between them, but if you take it 1 step further and say the Tatling ran to form in the Nunthorp and the HK Sprint then SW comes out on top, and is 3L better than Choisir & Oasis Dream, one is a matter of opinion by a panel the other is a matter of FACT
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman Of course, when you are doing the form, you won't look at a single run. You will be mindful of the form cycles horses go through, try to identify peak performances and see what a horse is capable of on its best days. Taking a line through The Tatling's Hong Kong and Nunthorp runs is a bit artificial. Do you think Sacred Kingdom should have been demoted after failing in the Golden Jublilee? Of course not. The horses that beat him couldn't get anywhere near his 123 rating.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski You have evidence that SK form was all wrong, you just have to look at horses that run in the Jubilee and the HK sprint, everybody knows Sacred Kingdom had problems that year, you just have to look at his HK races to see that, and having a hard race plus smashing the course record in the krisflyer did not hel,p something TT could not do, then having to run up to her best in the Jublee was asking too much, but he did prove the form all wrong something the Tatling did not do>>>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman As I have said, all horses go through cycles and will not necessarily produce their best everytime they step onto the track. Truely great champions, like Manikato, sustain greatness over many seasons. I agree that SW never fully recovered from his virus, and am aware of SK's issues. SK achieved one of the highest ever international rating for a turf sprinter.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski if you say the Tatling ran below his best you could argue that Silent Witness ran below his best too as S W beat the Tatling the following year by 16L & you could argue that the Tatling went into the HK sprint the following year in the form of his life having just come second in the Abbaye 2004 and reversing the form with Patavellian who had won the Abbaye in 2003 Silent Witness proved he was the best when he did not run up to his best he was still far clear of the rest.>>>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman The Tatling was not among the first rank, but failing in one race means nothing. Horses can put in a gut busting run and rate very highly, and in the following contest rate many lengths lower. Leading Australian form analyst and founder of Centre bet, Mark Reid wrote extensively on that subject. Understanding that phenomenon will improve your betting strategy.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I take your point about traveling, but just because a horse does not travel does not mean it cannot, and just because a horse does and wins races abroad does not make it better than a horse that does not. if you were right Cape of Good Hope would have beaten Silent Witness as he ran to a good level of form in Europe winning the Jubilee, 2nd in a King Stand he won G1 race in Australia he as won the Global Sprint Challenge in 2005,>>>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman I don't take issue with any of that in principle, but we cannot guage the relative merits of horses unless they meet face to face on equal ground. Horses travelling to HK are clearly disadvantaged. They have limited time to acclimatise, are racing on a synthetic track, and for Aussie sprinters in particular, are usually racing after competing our Spring racing and asked to peak again. Horses are not machines and will ot alwyas produce their best.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski You're absolutely correct. You have to rate horses that travel and still win ahead of those that don't.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski he as beaten TT twice and was runner up to that horse only beaten 1L , but COGH was always totally outclassed by Silent Witness. if Silent Witness had gone to the King Stands or the Jubilee he would only have had to run to his worst form lines with COGH to have dominated those race and on the best form lines with COGH he would have blitzed the Jubilee & King Stand
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman COGH was obviouly a very tough horse and may have beaten SW in the UK. It depends upon how they adjusted to the travel. Takeover Target was not the best sprinter Australia has produced by a longshot, but he was as tough as teak and could adapt to the rigours of travel. The mighty Kingston Town, the best thoroughbred I have see in the flesh, was beaten in Melbourne in his early days because he had difficulty racing anti-clockwise. All these factors count aginst the traveller.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski COGH would never have beaten SW no matter what country the 2 raced in, you say COGH was tough but SW was tougher because he beat COGH 11 time without a loss, even when both horses went to Japan for the Sprinters Stakes SW beat COGH 5 1/2 L so the traveling did not affect SW at his peak, COGH is a good yard stick to the European and Australian form and it only goes to show how good the sprinters are in HK as COGH was never regarded as the best sprinter in HK
kelletman 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski so when you try and knock the standard in HK you should bear that in mind. Cigar was a great horse to win so many races on the trot, top American horses often ovoid each other so not all of cigar races were of the highest quality, but he was a very good and tough horse to win so many races, and when he was asked to beat the best he did, and the same thing can be said of Silent Witness he was beating horses like COGH and the great National Currency for fun to name just a few
kelletman 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski SW only lost his unbeaten record when he was moved up to a mile and lost is form after contracting a virus in Japan. you make excuses for your top sprinters not taking down the top sprinters trained in HK, but many horses from Europe win races in HK and Australian trained horses have won races in the UK which is much further awayfrom Australa than HK,trainers often target races and train horses accordingly that is why many horses win >
kelletman 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski races all over the world at different times of the year
, , so this is not a major obstacle. Winning races abroad only shows you are tough and can travel, Silent Witness showed this by winning 17 races 8 being G1s over 3 years without being beaten and he also ran 2 great races in Japan before contracting a virus.
kelletman 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski The reason Silent Witness won 17 races in a row 8 of which were G1 races was because he was better than all the rest even on his worst day. but he did get a virus after his sprinters stakes win in Japan and was never the same horse after returning to HK. Silent Witness did more in those 3 years at the top than most horses do in 2 life times claiming the modern world record winning streak from the North American greats, Citation and Cigar.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman All due respect SW was no Citation, and comparisons with Cigar are odious. Cigar was hopeless on turf, as you know, but was able to win over a range of distances on dirt tracks. Citation was one of the greastest thoroughbred the world has seen. He had a Time Form rating of 147 and was rated only behing Man o War and Secretariat. I met an old maritime worker when I was a boy and asked him whether Phar Lap was the greatest horse he'd seen. He said, "yeah, bar one - Citation"
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski the tatling was not the best but he was a good yard stick at his best and had good form lines with TT, COGH had good form lines wiih TT but in 11 races with Silent Witness was always beaten easely
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman He knew his horses and had seen both in the flesh, incuding Phar Lap's phenomenal Sydney win when he smashed every Australian record over a mile in a 2.5 mile event. When in the States, he saw Citation string together his great sequence of 16 stake wins against the very best in a highly competitive racing nation. Citation raced as an aged horse and was eventually beaten - twice in 29 races! Now that's greatness.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovskiBut Cape of Good Hope had 3 races against Takeover Target and the score is 2 to 1 in Cape of Good Hope favour, in one of those races COGH was giving TT 9Ib and a 3 L beating, TT did beat COGH once by 1 L, but under your reasoning TT had home advantage as all these races were in TT back yard, but COGH had 11 races against Silent Witness and never got closer than 1 3/4 L to SW and Silent Witness as blown COGH away many times once by 8L in blistering times, 1L beating of COGH >>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman COGH has the good fortune of meetin Takeover Target when that horse hit a slump in form. He couldn't beat Glamour Puss - handly, but not a champion. His ratings of 115-117 put him below the very best. As I have said, SW was obviously a very great sprinter, but apart from Japan, let the competition come into his backyard and race him over his best course and distance. Travelling comes with it own perils, and dis advantages the visitors.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski> would not have cut it against SW at his best, If we take a look at Scintillation form with SW we will see Scintillation beat SW twice towards the end of SW career, Scinillation had 5 1/2 lengths in hand over SW compared to the 3L TT beat SW in the Sprinters Stakes, Scintillation also beat SW in SW final race before retirement, the winning margin was again 5 1/4 L giving Scintillation 2 1/4 & 2 1/2 L in hand over TT in the Sprinters Stakes on a strict line through >>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman I agree that Takeover Target may not have beaten SW over 1200m at Sha Tin when that horse was at his very best. But how would SW have gone in the Golden Jubilee Sprint in the wet? Racing up the 1400m rise at Randwck and then switching to the opposite direction in the wet at Caufield, before careening down Straight Six at Flemington, where horse capable of 10 sec per furlong pour the pressure on from the start to crack the faster horses.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski SW and the Sprinters Stakes, you may say Scintillation had improved past SW but this theory does not stand up to scrutiny if you look at the the blistering times of 55 s and 1m 8..40s that SW was posting at his peak those races all at Sha tin, You can even look at the time SW posted in the Sprinters Stakes in the year prior to TT winning the race, the time of SW was much faster & SW also beat She Is Tosha further than TT did giving her a 1Ib more on the same going, that >>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman I have no doubt that Sacred KIngdom could have done all that. He was (is) one of the greatest sprinters I have seen. Times are not everything. I remember a horse (Ubetido) that held every 1200m on Sydney tracks bar one. When he went in against the group one horses, he alway failed ebevn though the times were considerably slower. It seems like a paradox, but somes down to the class factor. Great horses can run fast times, but fast times do not make great horses.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski that proves that SW was bang out of form and a shadow of his former self in the Sprinters Stakes that TT won.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman The pace in the race and the track surface have a huge bearing on this. Fast early horses create a platform that allows the closers to sit behind, avoiding drag and conserving energy, before completing fast final sectional and a quick overall time. Similarly, if the track is dry and fast, rather than, say dead, the same horse can run a second (or 5 lens) faster. A head wind produces drag and slowes down the whole field. A tail wind does the opposite. Times are misleading.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski The only reason Silent Witness did not win races in the UK or Australia is because he was not sent there to run, it is far harder to win 17 races on the trot 8 being G1 in HK than to win races in the UK or Australia, COGH proved that as he won the Jubilee and a G1 in Australia and finished in front of TT twice, he even won Global Sprint Challenge in 2005 yet he could not win a G1 in HK , as the standard in HK out of the top draw, no horse trained out side of HK >>>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman You need to remember that Silent Witness, Absolute Champion and Sacred Kingdom (and a few of your other good sprinters) would have raced here had they not been purchased as young horses and raced in Hong Kong. They would have met the challenges all our great sprinters have. Even the mightly Manikato and Vain were beaten on off days. If Manikato had only raced at, say, Caufield and Mooney Valley at WFA, he would have won 25 on the trot.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski, You seem to foget that no horse trained outside HK as won the HK sprint since it was made a G1, it as been tageted by the worlds best sprinters, yet Silent Witness as won 2 HK sprints within his 17 wins beating great horses into the bargain, the standard in HK is amongst the best in the world and Manikato or Vain would have been lucky to win any G1 in HK let alone any contested by the big 3 , If S W had been running at Caufield, Mooney V, his record would be unbeatable.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman @kelletman You jest when you speak of Manikato and Vain that way. All of our sprinters who have impressed the Europeans were not in their class. Australian Timeform, for example, has Manikato rated at 136 and Vain at 134. The great kiwi mare, Sunline was 129, and you know what she did - beat Hong Kong great and Aussie bred Fairy Kingprawn. World beaters Miss Andretti (127), Choisir (126) and Takeover Target (126) would have struggled against those two great sprinters.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Miss Andretti was beaten 12 1/2 L by Sacred Kingdom yet MA on a line with Benbaun MA ran within 4 L of her Ascot form in the HK sprint, so at worst that makes SK 8 L better than MA, I find it odd that all these great Sprinters can run great races all over the world but cannot touch base in HK, it seems to me many of these great Australian sprinters have been overrated or the HK trained sprinters have been vastly underated because many form lines show HK sprinters >>>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman You make excuses for SW & SK, but fail to acknowledge that those failyures were excusable. Miss Andretti was never any good after her win in the King Stand Stakes. The Freedmans retired her after seeing her soundly beaten on her resumption. Make no mistake. In her prime, she was probably the greatest sprinting mare on turf in the world in modern times. When your sprinter travel and are regularly tested against the best, as ours have been, we will see how good they are.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski top of the pile,, in the 2007 HK sprint the first 5 horses were all HK trained, it is hard to compare great horses from the past but if all these great sprinters got in a race all in peak form, it would be one hell of a race.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman The IFHA is the last word on respective merits. This prestigous body is composed of the finest official handicappers on the planet - people who have set the weight for the world's greatest group one races. Their rating are as reliable an assessment as we can get. The two Hong Kong horse we have mentioned were given the highest accolades, and other have been in the 110 - 117 range. That is about right. If they want to improve, they will need to travel.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski all the form lines I have pointed are easy to read and to put HK sprinters way out in front, many great horses have never traveled far, Zarcava won all her races apart from one at Longchamp and never raced outside of the country, does that make Zarcava a bad horse.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman No it does not. And I have no doubt Deep Impact was the best horse on turf in the world when beaten in the Arc. He should have won, but he had a rather unusual preparation. If the whole of the Arc field had travelled to Japan and raced his there, he'd have won by panels. That's my point - loosing one race means nothing, but brilliantly winning one could mean everything. They are not machines.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@kelletman Finally, I was remined yesterday od Sunline's defeat in the George Main in 1998 (Choisir was also beaten at odd on in the first or second race that day). There was a 60km/hr headwind, which made it impossible for front runners to win that day - even champions. The leaders are hit with the full effect of drag, while those sitting behind enjoy the slip stream. It is why Defiers time was about 3 second slower than the great mare could run any day of the week. Something to ponder.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski as won the HK sprint since 2002 when it was upgraded to G1 status and only 5 horses trained outside HK have finished in the first 4 in that time. yet it as been targeted by leading horses from all over the world including Australia and Europe.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman Hometown advantage. It is challenging enough having to race at that level, but to survive the flight, re-adjust to new stabling conditions, race on unfamiliar surfaces, and experience dietary changes imposes further challenges. They loose weight and go off their food. Two of our horses almost died on the flight to Japan to race in its great cup - Saintly and Sky Chase. They developed respiratory problems from having to remain confined for long hours on the flight there.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Many trainers in the UK have stated that their horses have thrived when going to HK for the Cathay Pacific International races, these races are run in December so it is very fair for overseas horses as the weather is very mild in HK at that time of year, just like a English summer without the rain, many horse from abroad do well in HK for this reason, but the HK sprint is always dominated by HK trained horses, even when Silent Witness, Absolute Champion or Sacred Kingdom >>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman I saw them in the flesh, and I still get goosebumps thinking about it. Vain's one rival - if you can call him that - Kiwi, Daryl's Joy, won the Cox Plate before going to the US, where he won group races over longer distances. He looked ordinary against Vain. You will find Youtube postings of Manikato in full flight. He was something to behold. I dont think he was ever ridden out with the whip.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski >have not run another HK trained sprinter as stepped up to the plate and blown the overseas trained horses away, this proves the quality of the horses in HK, you very seldom get extreme conditions in HK and all top trainers make sure their horses are fed on their own food now and their weight & blood is checked prior to racing, Rocket Man as just been pulled out of the Sprinters Stakes because he lost some weight but Green Birdie had not problem going to Singapore or Japan.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman You seem reluctant to appreciate that these horses, including Rocket Man, being Australian bred, are out of the same mixed gene pool as our best sprinters. They would have been among our best had they been knocked down to Australian owners. Go though the list of the best Honker's horses and you will find that most, not all, have the smell of gum leaves and wattle in their fur. I have a question for you: do you know what happend to Octagonals brother Mouwad?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Breeding is a international game, you just have to look at the breeding of every top sprinter in Australa and you do find it's roots in Europe US & Asia, you could just say these horses are coming back home as horses are not a Native species to Australa but all were imported at some point, just like HK is importing them now, so you just have to let go and say these horses are running for HK now and not Australia as these horses are owned , trained & run in HK.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman Yes, that is so. The bloodlines need to be constantly replenished, which is why shuttling stallions has become a necessity. They mix their genes with the existing gene stock. The reason Australian bred sprinters have reached the top of the tree is largely attributable to the emphasis on speed in our 2yo races. The Golden Slipper is the richest 2yo race in the world now, and there are many races for that age arroubnf d it that can guarantee quick returns for a fast horse.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@kelletman @kelletman You seem reluctant to appreciate that these horses, including Rocket Man, being Australian bred, are out of the same mixed gene pool as our best sprinters. They would have been among our best had they been knocked down to Australian owners. Go though the list of the best Honker's horses and you will find that most, not all, have the smell of gum leaves and wattle in their fur. I have a question for you: do you know what happened to Octagonals brother Mouwad?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@kelletman I don't denigate these great Aussie bred HK horses. Every Aussie racing fan adored Maybe Diva and Sunline. The former was bred in the UK and trained by Aussies, the former in New Zealand & trained by a Kiwi. MIght and Power was Kiwi by birth, raised in Australia & trained by the late, great Jack Denham. We can all take pride & rejoice in the fact that we were alive to see these phenomenal animals do exceptional things. Then there is Phar Lap & Tulloch, etc, ... Kiwis trained here.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@kelletman ...At that age, most class sprinters are ready for the retirement paddock. But not Takeover. He had that flat spot I mentioned earlier, and then came back to win the Global Sprint Challenge. No Hong Kong Horse has done that, and Starspangledbanner is now rated the equal of Sacred KIngdom, because he has beaten the best in their backyard.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Hong Kong trained Cape of Good Hope won the Global Sprint Challenge in 2005, past winners Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Scenic Blast, all blown away in Hong Kong, these horses could not beat the second string horses in HK never mind the best.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman 2007 IFHA ratings had Miss Andretti and Takeover target at 120, and Absooute Champion (formerly Australian Genius and Evil) the best turf sprinter in the world at 121. She never recovered from her trip to the UK before she raced in HK, failed when she came back to Oz and was retired. That run means nothing. She was the greatest sprinting mare in the world in 2007. Her King Stands Stakes win was monumental. She made the best spinters in Europe look like welter handicap performers.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Hong Kong trained Cape of Good Hope won the Global Sprint Challenge in 2005, past winners Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Scenic Blast, all blown away in Hong Kong, these horses could not beat the second string horses in HK never mind the best., starspangledbanner as won 2 G1 races and was turned over by 100 shot then Markab ran him off his feet, he will get distroyed like all the rest if he goes to HK,
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman Scenic Blast bled in Hong Kong and was retired, before they sent him to the US. He was rates the equal best sprinter in the world with Sacred Kingdom (122) after his King Stand Stakes win, with Apache Cat and Takeover Target at 119. That was Starspangledbanner's third group one against world class fields. He is now rated best sprinter in the world (122), so the IFHA clearly don't agree with you, nor do the European handicappers who have given him the highest Timeform rating.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Do you remember WINFREUX ?
Baskerville22 1 year ago
@Baskerville22 Yes. A mighty horse of the late 60s. I remember him well, and with great affection. He was consistent at the highest level and exceptionally versatile, winning from 5.5f to 11f, and placed at 12f at WFA. He had the misfortune of running into the two of our greatest ever, Galilee and Tobin Bronze. He ran the fastest 11f in the world in 1965 and was second twice in the Cox Plate. They are the horses, along with the mighty Vain, that captured my imagination as a boy.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
given the other a race on their day. these 3 horses are my favorite sprinters maybe my head say's Sacred Kingdom then again Sacred Kingdom did not win 17 straight win's, but then again in 2006 Absolute Champion smashed a 21-year-old track record when he careered down the inside rail for a stunning success in the Premier Bowl, the second leg of the Premier Series, at Sha Tin on October 29, that year Absolute Champion was a great champion and second to none. HK as been very lucky with these horses
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman All Aussie bred. It is a pity none of them came home to contest the Newmarket or Lightning Stakes. Sacred Kingdom had his chance at Ascot, running third in the Jubilee. He was red hot favourite and I thought he would show the world why he was the highest rated. Mine you, it is no easy task to travel and race the best on offer.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski SK had a very hard race in the krisflyer, he had to pull out everything to peg back the Rocket Man and also ran that race in a new course record of 1m 7.80s, he later seemed to be running on empty in that the Jubilee, the Krisflyer must have taken alot out of SK as he later proved the Jubilee form to be all wrong when beating Cannonball (2nd in Jubilee) by 3 3/4 L in the HK sprint, SK was the World Champion Sprinter for 3 years because on his best form he was simple the best.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman Horses galloping in their own backyard have a huge advantage of those travelling great distances to compete. Issues of acclimitation, different stabling, dietary changes, interruption to training regime and weight loss due to the stress of travel are all obstacles the locals don't have to overcome. There is also the variation in track design and surfacing, and jockey familiarity with the track. The greats do it. Remember Sunline in the HK Mile?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I take on board what you are saying, Cape of Good Hope did win the Jubilee and did come 4th in the King Stands, did give weight in the lightning and did beat Takeover Target twice in his own back yard, but COGH could not beat Silent Witness in HK and that was COGH back yard too, Silent Witness just did not taget the races in the UK, SK just did not run is race in the UK because it had a very hard race in the Krisflyer and he had been injured that year and was not at his very>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman The two time COGH raced in Australia he did not meet Takeover Target. Those finishing behind him in both Australian races, with the exception of Spark of Life and Super Elegant, were not particularly memorable. On his run in the Australia Stakes, he could have won numerous group races here, which does frank Silent Witness' greatness. Silent Witness may have found a place among our top 10 greatest sprinters. Sacred Kingdom definately would have been up there with our top five.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Cape of Good Hope & Takeover Target ran in the Flemington (AUS) Result
05 Nov 2005 THE AGE CLASSIC
« 12:07 The Age Classic (Group 2) (3yo+) 6f Good
£74,286.00, £22,041.00, £11,020.00, £2,448.98
Cape of Good Hope & Takeover Target ran in the Flemington (AUS)
29 Oct 2005« 7:30 » Seppelt Salinger Stakes (Group 1)
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman You are correct. COGH ran third to Glamour Puss in both races, and Takeover Target finished 4th and 7th. That was during a sequence when he was recovering from lameness and there was speculation he would be retired. Joe got him right and after a brilliant first up in Queensland, he went to the Melbourne Autumn Carnival and looked like a world beater. Glamour Puss was a very good filly, but couldn't match Takeover when they clashed in the Newmarket.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski till later that year, you say these great sprinter come to the UK & win races, well that just goes to prove that races in HK & Australia are stronger than European races as you do not get horses from the UK going over there winning races, it just goes to prove the standard over there higher, but it is Hong Kong not Australia who have had the highest rated sprinter 7 times out of the last 10 years, Silent Witness,Abolute Champion & Sacred Kingdom.
kelletman 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I do not get the point, come home, these horses are trained in HK so are at home, The CATHAY PACIFIC HONG KONG SPRINT G1 is one of the best races in the world and second to none, the highest rated horses have contested this race, since 2002 when the HK sprint was upgraded to G1 status no horse trained out side of HK as won this race, Silent Witness was a 3 time world champion Absolute Champion a 1 time world champion & Sacred Kingdom a 3 time world Champion so the HK sprint >>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman Both Aussie bred, of course, and continued the great record of horses from this country in that event. No one could seriosuly take issue with you that these were three of the greatest sprinters of their day. It is a pity they didn't come down and contest the Newmarket and Lightning Stakes. Those event are now recognised as being of international standard, given the performances of Scenic Blast, Alinghi, Choisir, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, and Starspangled Banner in the UK.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski >as been proven to be a world championship race often contested by the highest rated sprinter in the world, I do not think Cape of Good Hope avoided any horse as he often raced against Silent Witness then the highest rated horse, he was 4th in the King Stands & 1st in the Jubilee and won the Timbercorp Australia stakes and 3nd in the Lightning Stakes giving weight to the first 2, he won the Global Sprint Challenge in 2005 but could not live with SW in the Sprinters Stakes.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman The Australian Stakes was definately an easier option for him that year. Alinghi and Fastnet Rock were outstanding sprinters. Alinghi won the first of her two races in the US before experiencing the tendon trouble that finished her career. capr of Good Hope would nopt have beaten her in the Newmarket. Fastnet Rock went to Ascot, but broke down before competing. Same thing happened to Exceed and Excel. Three of his progeny finished second in the group races at York recently.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
Silent Witness 17 Straight was something out of the very top draw, Cape Of Good Hope could not live with Silent Witness at is best, yet Cape of Good Hope won the inaugural Global Sprint Challenge series by winning the Australia Stakes in Australia and Golden Jubilee Stakes in the United Kingdom respectively. the time of Silent Witness are on a par with that of Sacked Kingdom in HK, lets do not forget Absolute Champion who was also a great sprinter in HK, I think each and every one would have >>
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman I wouldn't denigrate Silent Witnesses achievements. I listened on the radio the day he competed his great sequence. He was clearly a very great sprinter, and highly consistent. The Australia Stakes that year was a consolation, Cape of Good Hope was beaten by Alinghi and Fastnet Rock in the Lightning and dodged them in the Newmarket. Fastnet Rock was every bit as good as Scenic Blast and Takeover Target, went to the UK but never got to compete. Alinghi went to the USA.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
This race franked his greatness. To see him hit the lead with the great Silent Witness in chase was exhilarating. He simply dominated this brilliant field. I understand a movie is being planned, with Russell Crowe playing Joe Janiak. It will be hard to avoid descending into cliche, even with a great actor like Rusty. They should use the real Takeover Target - that has never been done with a movie of this type.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski This was not the Silent Witness who won 17 straight wins, he had not won a race for 1 year, the last race he won was this race 12 months ago and he won it in 1m 7.30s compared to tTakeover Targets time of 1m08.10s both on firm going, on a strict line through Silent Wintness & Benbaun in the Hong Kong Sprint the world Champion sprinter Absolute Champion had 1 1/4 L in over Takeove Target.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman I agree the Silent Witness was passed his best, but so was Takeover Target. Silent Witness had the luxury of rarely leaving his regular stable and stacking together his sequence against the same limited group of rivals on two tracks. Takeover Target won in five countries and every State in Australia. Faster times is not conclusive - depends on early pace, etc. Sacred Kingdom is the best Hong Kong sprinter ever, and Fairy King Prawn had greater range.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski in 2006 Takeover Target was at his very best, that is the year he won the King Stands and third in the Jubilee, then won the sprinters stakes, so unlike Silent Witness he was at his very best, but form lines with Benbaun at Ascot and in Japan make Asolute Champion the best horse in the world in 2006, Silent Witness 17 straight wins 8 are G1 wins and is a 3 time world Champion, Asolute Champion 1 time world champion, Sacred Kingdom 3 times world Champion.
kelletman 1 year ago
@kelletman Takeover Target was a 6 year old when he gained the recognition you refer to. However, you make a good case. SW may have beaten Takeover in his prime, but we will never know now. Until the World Sprint Challenge these great Australian breds would never have been given proper recognition. When Choisir won at Ascot, it all changed. They thought he was a fluke, but not any more. It makes you wonder what Vain, Manikato, Placid Arc, and Hareeba might have done had they travelled.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@kelletman Why do you only make excuses for the "great" Hong Kong Sprinters and then fail to acknowlodge the more obvious excuses for the better Australian sprinters?
speedingaway 9 months ago
the commentator turns into a dalek by the end there.
ghostshipone 1 year ago
sad he's retired now but it had to happen eventually, I'm glad he gets to spend the rest of his days at the living legends farm. with his dodgy legs i was surprised his days didn't end on the track. i read in the paper there going to be making a movie about him, which would be good its a true rags to riches tale i think warrents telling on screen.
RainingVengeance 2 years ago
i am unable to wait to meet T.T at the Living Legends farm so i can meet him and talk to his carer about his victories on the track. What a horse he was!
kiltsonfire164 2 years ago
Gee, the race was never on for first was it??? What a champ, in the true sense of the word.
emmelby 2 years ago
Unfortunately Silent Witness was a shadow of his former self by this time. I would love to have seen he and TT at their respective bests duke it out. And I'm an Aussie. Love 'em both.
jamessquire1 2 years ago
Any chance someone could post video of his Goodwood win? I missed it and would love to see it. He is a Legend.
Hedders111 2 years ago
what a champ, the legend just gets bigger, Takeover Target, Joe Janiak, Jay Ford, what a winning combination, u make me proud to be an aussie.
Keep on with this great saga, next stop Singapore
Sadarar 2 years ago
He will trounce them Saturday. He crushed Northern Meteor and Apache Cat... and they'd both be $2 favourites in the Goodwood. Takeover Target should be $1.10 and I think it will win by 5.
jimmydebas 2 years ago
he is a champion. some people suggest a champion has to be dominant over a range of distances but in a world where too many horses are labeled champions, takeover target is a champion. he has done it all over the world beating anyone and everyone. his run in the TJ at randwick one of his best and hes 9 now.
pimpingsanta 2 years ago
I could watch that over and over.....and i have. What a champion.
WeirsBane 3 years ago
freak best of the best
makybediva1985 3 years ago
fucking champion
ewhi1 3 years ago