WOTMR- God's imminence vs. transcendence applied to 'worship' songs of today's evangelicalism

[boobtuber06]

love the hymns- exalt both imminence and transcendence: fled from CCM and never returning

[parakeethands]

see how relevant Go aw aw aw aw awd is! 1 Peter 5:7 Rexella! Todd Van Impe/Jack Van Friel.

[csmdeg]

most people didn't get the right understanding of Jesus as the Son of God. It is not like God got married or something like physical. No! It is like having a person or part of Himself. That the relationship between Jesus and God is like a Son and a Father. Part of God was taken to be sacrificed to redeem us from our sin. The sacrifice of animals are no more effective to convict us with any degree of sin. Only by the God's own blood could redeem us.

[liincadeey]

Islam: true religion....Qur'an....>Words of Allah(God).......Issa (Jesus) prophet of God not son of god.....God bogotted none nor was he boggoten so pple open ur eyes to the truth.........

[thepresident022]

ahahahhahahhahahahbahbhhah LOVE Todd <3 hahahaahh WOMTR FTW

[mwngw]

that would be "immanence"...the quality of infinitely personal presence. The Christian mystics wrote of it often, and were usually persecuted for permutating any Christian idea beyond scripture or the RC church.

[Proverbs521]

i didn't mind the old title. i hated hymns before i got saved but now i love them.

[snowleopard205]

I know exactly what you mean! I went from Meatloaf and Alice Cooper to hymns the instant I was saved, and my poor bookcase is getting loaded down with all the hymnals I can get.

[norqvader]

do we REALLY need to waste time on this topic?

[norqvader]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz­zzzzzzz

[dwaynesweatman1988]

i think we should pray how romans 8 says...."crying out daddy".....

[thedadder]

Reverence to a Holy God! What a concept...

I have visited SBC Churches. Unfortunately I walk into a rock concert. Sometimes I feel guilty for forgetting my Bic lighter to wave during the Power Ballads.

[Brutangel22]

Lol.

I do want you to know that isn't true accross the board of SBC churches. Some of us(really everyone in my church and other SBC churches I've been to)have true reverence for God. Most I've been in love old hymns. Some new music is irreverent, but much is remarkably reverent. Music style is irrelevant when it is Biblical and worshipful.

[Rhuanjl]

I quite agree, you can have christian rock music. If the lyrics are actually theologically good.

[Afrikitty]

I got saved in March, 1987. I was 33 years old and very into my secular music before I got saved. THE DAY AFTER I got saved, I knew I wanted something else from music. A friend told me about Christian music. I was so shocked to find this Christian music that I became a radio announcer and promoted Christian rock for 10 years. After a time, I began to notice that this music was not what I wanted anymore. It took years, but today, I can honestly say that I prefer the old hymns and I can worship.

[rasero27]

I agree, a lot of the contemporary stuff is very superficial and after awhile you realize you just aren't treading into deeper waters. The hymns and even liturgy can help lead you there. I used to be one of those anti-hymn people, as I got saved in a charismatic church. I still love to worship with some good praise & worship, but a lot of it is still superficial and very repetitive. Transition to hymns is like going from a children's book to good literature; much more fulfilling.

[filoIII]

amen. "Christian" rock is of the world and utimately of the world's father

[peculiar316]

Being regenerated has nothing to do with the style of music you like so long as it shows a reverence for God. Had that woman singing actually been singing something biblical I wouldn't have had a problem with the style. Some people would called Christian rap wrong for the same reasons but some preach a true gospel in their songs. An organ is no more reverent than a guitar. Neither is a choir more than a single vocalist.

[filoIII]

and rock 'n roll means to fornicate. do you think God is fine w/ "Christian" fornicating music??? me think not

[Brutangel22]

Because the God who cleaned me and you can't clean a genre of music, of course not.

[filoIII]

so if rock and rap are still unclean---2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,---get away from the junk styles of music that claim to be Christian but are unclean

[Brutangel22]

By what standard are ALL (because that is your claim) Christian rock and rap unclean? I mean, some isn't of course, but not all. Look at guys like shai linne, for example. Most of his songs are more deep and reverent than hymns. Some for dozens of Christian rockers, rappers, country singers, etc. It isn't the style that matters (or else there would be a definite Scriptural reference addressing nonhymns), its what the music is. If it is true praise, accept it; if not, don't.

[filoIII]

is it like the world's musick? if so, God is against it. regardless of SOME of the words. usually in these contemporary and rock/rap songs they may mention "he" or '"you" , possibly once in a while Jesus, but usually it's generic that could also apply to a boy/girlfriend and can easily be on the pop charts.

[Brutangel22]

You do realize that, at some point in its history, every style of music was the world's music.

And, really, you should stop generalizing. Just because some Christian rock/rap is pointless doesn't make it all so.

[jubileetre7]

whoa dude.....this is way off you can sing the hymns as beautiful as they are in any style of music.I agree that the lyrical content of todays "christian song" are weak and unspiritual not all but alot.I love hymns I'm in his hand and nothing can tke me away from his hands

[winecheesery]

I like how he mentions Rexella (in referant to that joker Jack Van Impe)

The older songs are more about God. The newer songs have mostly "me me me" and yes they have the modern sounds which are more geared to the culture and the constant need for entertainment. Old school churches are more sacred.

[BonzaiJakab]

"1 Peter 5:7 Rexella!" Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

[smoothiefam]

I normally appreciate WOTMR, but this is silly. One "style" of music is better than another because to their ears it "sounds" more majestic? Honestly, when I heard the samples they provided as the "better" music, I cringed! Not because I'm unregenerated, but because it's a STYLE I don't care for. ALL music is man-made anyway... I agree that we do need to keep deep spiritual truth in our songs, but just because a song is not accompanied by an organ doesn't make it less revering to our Lord.

[quemacha]

I once visited a church where all their music was performed acapella. I thought it forced the emphasis on the words we were singing rather than the performance. Coming from the traditional church I was raised in, some people confuse the majesty of God with the majesty of the church system.

[mikemck123]

But it isn't well documented. To the contrary, it's an urban legend that's based on a misunderstanding.

In music, a "bar" was a song form consisting of three or more stanzas. Each stanza was divided into two verses (section a) and one chorus (section b), and set to music, which yielded a form of AAB.

[mikemck123]

...The term "bar form" is commonly used today to refer to any poem or musical composition in this AAB form, or any variation of bar form, such as AABA.

It comes from a German word "barre" and was only meant to point out this form in order to differentiate it from chants, which were the primary musical form in the church up until that time, not to denote origins in a tavern.

[mikemck123]

Unfortunately, in this day and age, most people don't know anything about church history or about music and have no problem confusing the two the "bar" form of music and a "bar", as in a drinking establishment, and then have no way to know when they're not being told the truth.

What makes hymns by Wesley, Luther, Crosby, et al more "spiritual" is not the style of music, but the theology they impart.

[future622]

I disagree

[mdkbdshan]

On the other side of the coin, to many people (myself included) try too hard to sing a hymn right without focusing on the lyrics. We're all selfish sinners.

[jamesmere]

Look up the origin of these "old hymns" as you call them. You'll find that the organ was looked down upon when it was first used the church. You'll find that the most of the chorales taken from the reformation, i.e. (A Mighty Fortress, We Praise Thee O God Our Redeemer Creator) are actually old drinking songs with new lyrics. One of our favorites Ode to Joy, by Beethoven was not a song of praise to the Lord, it was originally written to praise a humanistic viewpoint on the nature of man...

[jamesmere]

We call this music sacred only because of its repetition. We march our daughters down the aisle to a tune from an opera based on pagan rituals and stories, Wagner's wedding march. But repeat it enough times in the church and it becomes sacred.

True worshipers will worship in spirit and in truth, not necessarily from a hymnal. For God does not delight in sacrifice or burnt offerings, the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit a broken and contrite heart, O God you will not despise.

[jamesmere]

By the way, not a single hymn exists that is over 600 years old. In other words, Jesus didn't sing A Mighty Fortress, the early Christians did not sing a rousing "Amazing Grace", they had their own songs, hymns, and spiritual songs. Every generation has them, and to pass judgment on a generation's expression of their relationship to God is dangerous ground.

Let us spend our time finding ways to worship together rather than drawing lines between together to prove one right and the other wrong.

[Fivernz]

There are hymns which are over 600yrs old. True, prior to the middle ages you do tend to find more metrical psalms and latin plainsong, but you can find music more in the style of hymns that goes back a long way.

Hymns that still are sung that are over *800* yrs old that I know of: Be thou my vision, Morning has Broken, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence... there are more. The last one is 1600 yrs old (roughly).

[mikemck123]

This is actually an urban myth. They were not drinking songs.

[jamesmere]

Why does it bother you if they were?

They're not scripture, they are notes of music, what difference does it make?

Scripture is scripture, song is song, don't mistake tradition for spirituality.

[mikemck123]

It wouldn't bother me at all. I just don't think we, as Christians, should be in the business of perpetuating urban myths.

Besides, thank about it logically for a minute: does it really make sense that the Wesley Brothers, for all of their preaching against worldliness and sin would have been inclined to take their music from places that would be so associated with the things they preached against?

[jamesmere]

You're missing the point. Whether the Wesley's used music that was actually in a tavern or not is up for debate, but it is well documented that they used popular secular forms called, "Bar Tunes". My point is big deal! What makes the songs of Wesley more spiritual than the songs of today. That is the point that I was trying to make. Whether this is an urban myth or not, is a moot point. My point is that "we should spend time finding ways to worship together rather than drawing lines..."

[mikemck123]

...The following are excellent resources that debunk the "drinking tunes" myth.

Companion to The United Methodist Hymnal by Carlton R. Young (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1993).

"John Wesley's Choice of Hymn Tunes" by Fred Kimball Graham (1988), The Hymn 39 (4):29-37.

Sing with Understanding: An Introduction to Christian Hymnology by Harry Eskew and Hugh T. McElrath (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1980).

[1wingsolja]

Praise God. I love the reverance of traditional hymns. Also Keith Green has reverence.

[Eric0873]

Amen! I thoroughly believe that the "old hymns" are the perfected expressions by which we should glorify God in song! There's nothing inherently wrong with today's CCM, however if there is no reverence then there is no true worship! It seems since my true conversion, I can't get enough of 'Wonderful Cross' even if its done in a contemporary style. :) <E<

[mbishop35]

The problem with the vast majority of contemporary Christian music is, aside from it's overwhelming simplicity, that the focus is almost always on "self" or "what can God do for me? Contrast that with hymns like Martin Luther's theological masterpiece, "A Mighty Fortress is our God"..that display reverence and acknowledge God's sovernty.

[mumpty]

Been in both types of churches & I have seen it screw up (a) those who ONLY use classical hymns & are SO dry & dusty you `do they ENJOY worshiping their God... you'd never know`, & (b) `chilling with God my best mate` type.. & I think `do they have ANY idea who they are meant to be talking to`. However, good to see Tom bring out +'s and -'s in both sides.

[hasani42]

Okay, just because the music isnt on the cutting edge of the 15th century deosnt mean its irreverent to God. And yes you should make how you presetn the gospel relevent to the culture you present it to.

[slim2jz]

very good

[YoungCalvinist08]

I go to Spurgeon's Tabernacle, and at 17, I still love the old hymns...even if I like a little CCM and Christian Hip Hop

[ReformedLou]

I'm surprised to hear most Christians writing as though musical genre and mood are irrelevant to worship, as long as the lyrics are good. Are all musical styles equal? Should I praise God with a kazoo? If anyone believes all styles are equal, they clearly don't understand the power of music. God is holy, holy, holy, and our music should reflect that we understand and find delight in this.

[naturalsystah]

I personally love both hymns and CCM, but I'd just add a bit of caution; I know many unregenerate people who just LOVE traditional hymns and know them better than I do!

[boobtuber06]

@naturalsystah There are a couple of hymns that extol imminence just as well as CCM.

[abedbae]

more non thinking rituals... yes lets all just sing and not discover or learn..

[fvelilla]

todd is very bold to say that if you don't like this music style you might not be "Regenerated". our family of churches (sovereign grace ministries) play old hymns in a contemporary style.

orchestra style was contemporary 100 years ago so there is no standard of how to play. as long as the lyrics are God exalting..with sound theology.