LDS doctrine is only considered 'sound' or 'consistant' after years of evolution, revision, and omission and/or addition. Taken as a whole, it really makes no sense because the Mormon god can't keep his own doctrine straight nor can he keep his church together. This, of course, is the reason that the Mormon god isn't the Biblical God.
@moparmonster1965 Yes, because the true doctrines of God have never changed. We all still offer the sacrifices of our unblemished bullocks and rams to the Levite priests. We eat only unleavened bread and abstain from pork. Well, I gotta run... I have a public stoning to get to. I bought polished granite for this one and can't wait to try it out.
@sirnathan Judaism and its evolution to Christianity is far and away different from Mormonism going from being what it started out as to what it became and is today.
The priesthood was required to keep the lineage clean and pure (as much as is possible for human beings) for the coming of Christ. Mormonism, however, tries to be both Old and New Testament, while managing to fail at both.
@moparmonster1965 I won't argue with you on that point, as people have vastly different ideas as to success and failure. From my perspective, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints seems to be succeeding wildly.
I will say that you speak of Judaism and Christianity as though they were/are ever unified doctrines and creeds. Yet countless sects did/do exist for both. Read anything by Bart D. Ehrman. Christian creed and practice is as vast and varying as translations of the Bible.
@sirnathan So success equals correctness? I guess you'd better buy a Rosary and start going to Catholic Mass because they outnumber Mormons more than a hundred to one. But of course that's not correct; that would be a stupid thing to assume, wouldn't it?
United? Far from it, and cults like Catholicism and Mormonism have helped to farther divide Christian from non-Chriostian doctrine and belief.
The main point of the Bible has yet to change, and the different editions don't prove it wrong.
@moparmonster1965 No, I don't think success equals correctness, especially about convincing others of the true nature of God. Look at Christ's mortal ministry. He preached to tens of thousands, yet at His death, none but a handful followed Him in the old world. He had a SLIGHTLY larger following in the Americas. Volumes of research has documented how that small handful became confused and divided before Christ's death, and even moreso after His death.
The 'other sheep' (John 10:16) have nothing to do with fictional people. In fact, those people are clarified in Romans 10:19,29 as people who sought Him not, so that does not fit the non-existant people found in Joseph Smith's BOM.
@moparmonster1965 Likewise, LDS members in the world are SEVERELY outnumbered by most all religious sects. The argument for, and against the LDS Church comes down to ONE thing... perspective. It is your perspective that LDS Church is a cult, and worships a false Christ. And I bet you can prove it by the Bible. That, my friend, is your perspective and personal interpretation, which I'm sure you feel is a correct interpretation of the Bible.
Mormons use the same terminology that Christians do, but affix another very different definition to them, which fundamentally changes the meaning. This is the language barrier that confuses many Christians when they speak to the missionaries and leads them to believe that Mormons hold true the same things that they do, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
@sirnathan Yes, the LDS perspective is a unique thing--based on the warped misunderstanding of the Bible, God, and salvation held by Joseph Smith. It's that distorted starting point from which Mormonism moves farther away from Christianity and Biblical standards.
@moparmonster1965 Do you honestly feel that any Christian sect believes its perspective incorrect? The notion is absurd! LDS members feel they interpret the Bible correctly, as do Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Christian Scientists, Catholics, Moonies, Pentecostals, Unitarians, Nondenominationalists, 7th Day Ads, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mennonites, Quakers, Shakers, and every other Holy Roller! So congrats for FINALLY getting it right! Now go out and tell the rest!
@sirnathan I came from Catholicism, and yes, it, too, is a cult. There are more than a few parallels between it and Mormonism. Are the others incorrect about certain things? Yes, probably, but I'm being called to drag the ugly truth about Mormonism into the light, and will get to the others later, if so required.
You forgot to mention Scientologists, another winner of a group.
@moparmonster1965 Well, by Merriam-Webster standards, most religions are cults. But I have found a solution to my predicament, and thereby am now no longer destined for hellfire. I renounced the Mormon church, knelt down beside a local Baptist preacher as he put his right hand on my back and screamed bloody murder into a microphone. I said the "Sinner's Prayer" and he said I was saved now and forever. I quickly rejoined the Mormon church, as I am now saved, never to fall.
@sirnathan I don't think God can be fooled as easily as you fooled yourself. Sorry.
There's a big difference between the Biblical Jesus and the Mormon jesus, Biblical salvation and Mormon exaltation. The difference extends to the nature of the Biblical God and the Mormon god, the nature of mankind and the Mormon concept of mankind.
Mormonism has almost nothing in common with Christianity, though most don't know it.
@moparmonster1965 No, this was a Baptist preacher... he understood the true gospel from the Bible. And he reads from the NIV! But I got saved... I mean I literally said the "Sinner's Prayer" for others to hear. I know I will be JUDGED ACCORDING TO MY WORKS, but Jesus CAN'T condemn me. He's already save me! So it doesn't matter what I do or don't do from this point on. I'll go to that glorious meeting in the air. I'll have that mansion on the hill! Now its time for fun!
@sirnathan The problem, which I've already highlighted, is that the Mormon jesus isn't the same as the Biblical Jesus, and therefore he can't save anyone. The LDS organization isn't of God and therefore has no authority to do anything, much less provide exaltation.
Saying a particular prayer isn't going to save you from Hell; it's the sttaitude toward the real Jesus Christ Almighty and the rejection of those false teachers misusing in His name.
@moparmonster1965 And I can tell you aren't just an agitator. You seem to honestly love the Lord Jesus Christ. And you are a very patient individual. What I am telling you is, I said the Sinner's Prayer to the Biblical Jesus, as defined by a Southern Baptist minister (not a Missionary Baptist, as they do not believe in "once saved, always saved" and will probably burn in Hell as a result). I did this when I was 16, and did so with complete sincerity.
Mormonism doesn't seem to subscribe to the "once saved, always saved" school of thought either, because there's no resting on one's laurels there. The church always has something for you to do, and that's the reason for the expression "there's no such thing as a Sunday Mormon." With Catholicism, however, there most certainly is.
You can say the Sinner's Prayer all day long, but since it isn't recognized by the LDS in that manner, it doesn't do you any good. You're trying to stack the deck, but remember that as of 1820, all churches on earth were wrong and since none of them have changed much, if at all, they must still be so.
@sirnathan No, I'm not here to beat anyone up, but to try to show why Mormonism is wrong and why Christianity is right. Being rude and obnoxious sure isn't going to get me where I want to go, is it? I try to speak in humility while being wise as a serpent. As a human being, though, I probably fail more than I realize.
@moparmonster1965 Now I think we are on the same page and I truly respect that you are a man of God and a man for God. You may think we believe in different Christs, and I've come to the point in life where I don't even argue that anymore. I don't believe the way I do because I am Mormon. I am Mormon because I believe the way I do. Of all the many faiths I've dabbled in, it is the only one that not made sense, but felt right.
@moparmonster1965 I learned "of" God from the prophets and apostles of old. But I did not "love" God until I learned that He still loves me as much as He loved them. When I was told that God still calls prophets, it didn't sound strange, or feel sacrilegious. Rather, it felt like something I had always known... and was simply remembering. I recognize the issues that cause confusion and concern from mainstream Christianity... but I can not ignore the peace I feel in Christ.
@moparmonster1965 Honestly... if I were anything but LDS, I wouldn't be sincere in my following of Christ. As to the JST, the reason it is not canonized is that the translation was not completed. We have much of what was revealed to Joseph, but the RLDS (now Community of Christ) owns the copyright, and we can not publish what we don't own. Finally, the corrections we DO have already are included as footnotes and appendages in the KJV.
@moparmonster1965 But the idea that the Bible is riddled inconsistencies and mistranslations didn't come from Joseph Smith. No way. That understanding has been known and accepted for centuries. As you have a background in Catholicism, you'll know that they recognize many writings that were common to the Bible centuries ago but have since been removed as apocryphal. Some obviously are, while some are sound doctrine and probably shouldn't have been removed.
@moparmonster1965 I went to The Holy Land Experience in Orlando and they have an EXHAUSTIVE collection of very old Biblical records. We're exerts of the OT that are carved into animal bone that dates back to centuries before Christ. There are NT exerts in Greek and Hebrew that pre-date the KJV by centuries. They show clear differences in wording and even meaning, and you have the luxury of comparing them side-by-side in glass cases. On a final note about the Bible...
@moparmonster1965 The compilation of canonized scripture (which by the way, it was the Catholic church that ultimately decided what "should" be canonized... and if they have no authority, why should we accept those books as canon and not the MANY others that were in circulation for centuries after Christ's death?) was not a start-to-finish single project. These were written by different people, in different places, and at different times.
@moparmonster1965 People erroneously attribute the final compilation to the Nicene Council, (I've even heard LDS missionaries state this) but putting together various manuscripts into what we've come to know as The Bible took place long before and was a LONG process. In fact, early Greek compilations contained books that were not included in Roman compilations from the same time period... and vice versa. No one in the LDS church believes them to be the mistakes of God.
@moparmonster1965 To say so really would be blasphemous. But to say errors do no exist is to be... I don't really know the word. It isn't "daft", because it is human to want to find perfection in the world around us. However, God and Christ are the only sources of perfection. But it is to be... shall we say "selectively deaf, dumb, and blind". They are right there in plain text. I won't highlight them because I'm not going to reinvent a wheel that can easily be Googled.
@moparmonster1965 In closing. I do love Jesus Christ as I've come to know Him. If that is a different Jesus Christ than you love. We'll just have to love different people. The one I know is the one that lifts my heart when I am in my darkest hours and I can not offer my love to any other notion of God. I do believe that it is only Christ's sacrifice that can save us from our own sins. But I've never felt like faith alone made me worthy of that grace.
@moparmonster1965 Faith is the foundation that all works must be built upon. But look at the man that came to Christ seeking eternal life in Matthew 19. That guy came to Christ in full faith that Christ alone had the power to save him. Christ didn't say "Just keep breathing until death takes you. You're going to Heaven because of your faith". No way, he gave that guy a pretty demanding tasks to complete... and the guy was none too happy about having to sell everything and give to the poor.
@moparmonster1965 Lets say I truly did, in all sincerity, confess my sins and accepted your notion of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. If... even theoretically... I could then do all manner of good AND evil... and not be held accountable for it. If, because I was sincere in my faith for a moment in time... and then later fell away from my faith... and did all manner of VILE and FILTHY sins... was welcomed with open arms into the Glory of God...
@moparmonster1965 I'd honestly rather spend an eternity in hell that live for a moment with a god like that. And if what my heart tells me is wrong... that might be just what I end up doing. But I mean that with all sincerity. I'd rather burn with those who did so much good in life yet worshiped the "wrong" god (or no god at all) then live with a god that gives free passes based solely upon someone's acknowledgement that Christ suffered for us... and was never required to obey God.
@moparmonster1965 I'm not saying you are wrong about that. I'm saying that I can not worship a deity that does not take my actions, works, and obedience to His commandments into consideration when deciding my worthiness to enter His kingdom. The day LDS leaders tell me that works are not essential is the day you see me walk away from the LDS church. never to return. Ok... FINALLY... I'm done. Feel free to write back but if I write back again, it will be a personal message to you. God bless.
@moparmonster1965 Therefore, if Southern Baptist Jesus has the power to save, than I am saved and my later actions have no bearing on my soul's destination. I can return to worshiping Jesus Christ of the LDS Standard Works. Although I've tried to live a good life, I have the options of raping, pillaging, murdering, setting fire to churches, performing abortions, killing myself, and even cursing God's name and worshiping Lucifer. Regardless, I will dwell with him in Glory.
Yes, you have those options in life, but if you choose that path, the argument can be made that you were never saved in the first place, like Judas betraying Jesus. Was he saved? Probably not because if the Christian is full of the Holy Spirit and he was able to be possessed by Satan, it stands to reason that he was just another mechanism by which the plan of salvation came about.
And since the jesus of Mormonism isn't Jesus of the Bible, we're not exactly talking about the same thing.
@moparmonster1965 This is possible, because we are saved by grace through faith, not by our works. That trumps two other truths, and allows us to ignore them completely. First, no one is born with faith, it takes WORKS to build faith (praying, reading Bible, going to church, etc.) Second, the day of judgement is not yet come. Judgement determines whether we burn or not (Matt 13: 38-43), and we are judged according to our works, not the amount of faith we had (Rev 20:12).
You're also quoting the Bible when it's missing many 'plain and precious things,' so you really have no idea as to what parts are correct and what parts aren't. This is yet another major point because while the Mormon god ordered the Bible to be corrected and Joseph Smith twice claimed that he did, the church still hasn't canonized the JST.
@sirnathan What Mormons and Catholics don't grasp is that works are an expression and an extension of our salvation and faith in God, not the yard stick by which we'll be judged alone. I'm not saying that they're not important, but that they come later, after faith and salvation, if they're going to be considered.
That's the reason my Muslim neighbor can do all kinds of favors for me, but they ultimately fall on deaf ears because he worships the Arabic moon god.
@moparmonster1965 I do apologize for so many responses. It's difficult to say what you need to when the length is limited. You can choose to acknowledge the Biblical teachings that our works do matter when it comes to Heaven or Hell. Or you can hang everything on a one-time gift of salvation. I really like the latter. It is convenient for me and infinitely easier. I can sin until I burn this world to ashes and there is no eternal consequence. I exploited a loophole.
No problem; these conversations can get lengthy and the 500 character-limit almost requires a huge number of posts.
That said, I never claimed that works don't matter, but rather that the LDS view of them is incorrect. Now I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or actually telling me what you believe here, but we both know that it doesn't follow the LDS world-view, so I'll assume the former.
There's also a major difference in the Mormon versus the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell.
@ChocolateFlowerz You seem to be a little scattered, CF. Just read your bible, trust in what it says. In it Jssus says, "you must be born again." Everything begins at that point. The Holy Spirit will then lead you to all truth -- in harmony with His Word.
"“As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.”
This means God was a man who has a god, who in turn was a man who had a god, etc., etc,. It's just simple math that in a few generations of this type of man-to-god theology, you'll have millions or trillions of gods. Yet ours will only be worthy of the worship of a tiny fraction of all worshippers.
Can you tell me how you became a Christian? What does that mean?
@ChocolateFlowerz only God is good,now show me what I have lied about and I will show you lds false doctrine where it was said and taught.
plus your atheist friends don't believe in God cause they hide the truth with their evil lives,your atheist friends know that God exist he has shown himself through creation and what he has made,romans 1:18-21
There is a God
God's anger is shown from heaven against all the evil and
wrong things people do,by their own evil lives they hide the
@ChocolateFlowerz first of all I'm a born again christian that is saved by grace,the biblical Jesus Christ is my lord and savior.
I attend a bible based church,I know what mormonism teach and believe I have studied lds false doctrine before. all atheist is going to hell if they die in their sins and for not believing rev 21:8.
I fear the great God of Israel,the fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.
@ChocolateFlowerz Im on board with you, faith leads to works, scripture is pretty clear on that one, no arguments from me on that. James 2 is another good passage that speaks on that subject. Im saying that God gave us faith, God gave us everything good, He owes us nothing. If we are saved by our works, then nobody is getting in to Heaven, thats why we need Jesus. Isaiah 64 is another good passage on our works. Thoughts?
@ChocolateFlowerz You challenged me to disagree with you. Bear that in mind. 1 Corinthians: 3:18-20 Your quote: ..."Why did He do that?"... Are you willing to accept that God does not owe you any deeper explanation than the one offered in Revelation 4:11? "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." There is your answer. .."and for thy pleasure".. Also read: 1John 3:2
Knowing what will happen in the End and having mankind fail to accept the provisions to make that End glorious via obedience does not undermine God's Justice or Mercy.
Knowing that some will not Believe and Obey does not discount God's Love, Justice, Fairness or Mercy.
Knowing that some will fail regardless of what God has done to prevent it does not reflect on God.
By making it impossible for mankind to 'Save' itself, or attain to any form of real 'Glory' without Him, God retained (and demonstrated) His rightful Power and Authority.
By providing a way for mankind to be 'Redeemed' ONLY via a move of God (Jesus, Cross, Death, Resurrection) God both restored what A&E threw away and brought the 'Glory' (all of it, for all time and beyond) back into His hands and His alone.
God owes us nothing. It is only by His undeserved love and kindness that we have anything. I do not know a whole lot, but I do know this,
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Ephesians 2:8-10
Repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, for Christ all we have.
God doesnt owe you anything. If anything you owe him youre life. Youre not the creater God is the creater. so how can you see he owes you anything? Thats blasphemous.
@bell12918 Are you telling me that you'd have been OK with God placing you here and never revealing himself to you in any way? No bible. No Jesus. Nothing. That was my "owe" that God owes me. If so, OK. I'm not fine with that.
..."Are you telling me that you'd have been OK with God placing you here and never revealing himself to you in any way?"...
The rejoinder:
John 14:5-14
Excerpt:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him."
@oceantalk1 It says in James 1:5-6 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." "But let him ask in faith nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed." It say right there that we can ask God anything. Anything at all.
@titansful my point is joseph smith was a false prophet, you shall know them by their fruit, lets examine joseph smith fruit, j smith killed 2 men, j smith married other men wives, smith also used a peep stone to write the bom, smith claimed every other church was a abomination, j smith had sex with very under age fanny alger, smith use to hunt for treasure with that same peep stone, smith made prophecies that failed.
@oceantalk1 Sorry I do not see things like you do. Joseph was tared and feathered and was almost killed himself. There were many men in the Bible that had more than one wife, he claimed they were abomination only because they taught the scriptures of men and not of God. I was not there and neither were you to know if he had sex with under ages.
I sometimes think we try to put God in our little box and try to understand his plan and throughout history man has tried to think like God and that won't happen. To all L.D.S people your doing that the most your human God is not, I believe that the only way truth will be reviled is if you have a personal relationship with our creator and stop trying to be one and therefore God can and will work wanders in your life.
Hey freedom liked your video as always just thought I would give you my 2 cents on your comment that 2+2=4 in heaven. I think one of the areas where we disagree is that the Father + The Son+ The Holy Spirit= One God.
@servant4JC How can they be one when many many times Jesus prayed to Heavenly Father? Was he praying to himself? Remember when Jesus was baptized and it says in Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice FROM heaven, saying this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well please." Did Jesus throw his voice or something? Stephen looked in to heaven and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Jesus is God of the Old Testament, but he also has a Father in Heaven.
@titansful the trinity is false, but the mormons are still not christain ther eis one god, go was never a sinner, mormons are anti-truth, anti-christain
Enjoyed your video. Makes a ton of sense, and to me, that's a lot of what its all about, a gospel that makes sense and is not a mass of confusion. Thanks so much for sharing!
God is made so low in LDS doct. He's just one of an infinite # of gods, worthy of the worship of only his particular world -- not all creation. With each generation of men to gods, each god becomes an infinitesimally tinier fraction of the whole #.
I love Isaiah, too... 43:10, 11 "...And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed,
I can understand why you believe the way you do. I'd ask you to consider why I feel the way I do. To me the LDS doctrine enlarges God and raises him up. That may be hard for you to grasp but it's how I really feel. When I think of all that God is and has done for each of us it blows my mind.
Scripturally speaking why is the concept of multiple Gods so hard to grasp when in the third chapter of Genesis the phrases are used "ye shall be as gods" and "is become as one of US". Plural terms both.
"Feeling" he's big doesn't deal with the fact God is in fact infinitesimally small in LDS theology.
It was Satan who said, "Ye shall be as gods." That was a very bad thing -- false gods bad. Re: man becoming "as one of us" -- there is a plurality in the godhead ("Elohim") and also there were angels. And the bible explains "as one of us" - they now knew good from evil.
Unlike the above explanations, you need to twist the Isaiah 43 verses to make them fit LDS. What they say is very plain.
Well, we're all entitled to our own opinion. Are you a fan of CS Lewis? He disagrees with your position here. Often what we think is very plain is not so plain. Why else are there so many denominations today with so many different creeds all coming from one source; the bible? Apparently not so plain or else there would not be so many different interpretations of the scriptures.
In another video of yours you said you don't like when someone simply answers a scripture challenge by saying in effect, "well, what about this scripture?" I can appreciate that. So why not just answer what Isaiah 43 means?
Or how a god who is one of infinite gods can be big when he's worthy of only the worship of the tiniest of fractions of the whole of creation?
I know these are hard questions. I'm not trying to be mean, but am pressing...because it's important.
OK. I don't know what that scripture means. I don't have all the answers. This much I do know. It happens every day that ideas held as truth come under scrutiny and are sometimes flipped on their heads. The statement that the world is flat is true (from a certain perspective) but in reality when you back up far enough it's round. So can a person say the earth is flat and have that be a true statement while someone else says the earth is round and have that be true too? Relativity.
The truth of God's Word does not change. If the Word of God is the standard, the most important questions are not hard. It's only with the introduction of shared authority that difficulty arises.
Is 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
He promised it would stand forever -- not that it would become corrupt and need restoration.
I agree. The truth of Gods Word does not change and his word shall stand forever. Just because humanity doesn't understand correctly Gods word it does not make it void or change it. I believe that Gods word has not passed away. The things He said would happen will happen. The truths are still true. I just believe that the majority of humanity is deceived and does not understand Gods Word.
When the scriptures use the phrase "Most High God" why is it phrased that way? Why not say, "God who is high" or some other variation of that? The presence of the word MOST is interesting to me. It denotes that there are at least three. If there were one God it should say "The High God". If two "the Higher God" but it says "Most High God". If that's to be taken literally then there must be Gods who are high but not as high as the MOST HIGH GOD. Yes?
The title El Elyon (Most High God) appears in scripture amidst countless false gods. Abram's from Ur, where they worshipped the moon and other idols/gods. God - THE God -- the "I AM" - IS the Most High God. Of all the things you can make into a god -- of all that you could worship -- He -- El Elyon -- is the Most High. There is none higher.
Besides Doug, any god who is just the latest in an infinite # (LDS) is far from Most High, don't you think? The title would no longer fit.
@freedombolt BECAUSE THERE'S MANY FALSE GODS YOU ARE STUPID CAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN A FALSE PROPHET AFTER THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS DONT BELIEVE ANY ANGEL OF LIGHT
@erinnelson92 Also says in Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Just because the Bible went into print that does not mean that the Lord has stopped talking. If any generation through time needed a prophet it would be this generation with all the bad in the world.
@titansful that was old testament, the new testament say hebrews 1:1,2 we dont need prophets anymore because we have jesus, mormoms are christain any ways
@erinnelson92 They did not need prophets while Jesus was here on Earth, but he is not here not is he? I really believe we need prophets now more than ever.
@titansful not true the point of a propher was to tell about a coming messiah jesus jesus came no point of a prophet now, jesus said it was finished when he died, and said the holy spirit will tell us all thing we need to know, and jesus said we do not need prophets because we have jesus, he said in the last days, we are living in the last days, so we need the perfect son not a lying thomas monson, mormons are not christain, if your interested I would love to help you come to know the christ?
@erinnelson92 There were a lot more to being a prophet than just proclaim the coming of Jesus. I am really sad that you think that that is all they did. They also make know God's will, taught about God's character, preserve and edit the records, denounce sin, foretell its punishment, a preacher of righteousness. When the people had fallen away from a true faith in Jehovah, the prophets had to try to restore that faith. Sometimes they predicted future events. I know Christ. He is my savior.
@titansful Wrong there purpose was to tell of a coming messiah, everything they did prepared for jesus, and ldds are not christain, read the comments lds are anti-christain, they are anti-truth, and pro-man, you will never become a god, blacks were never cursed, and jesus and satan are not brothers, their is no heavenly mother, and no pre-exsitence, You are so blaspemous it's sicking. do you want to tlk over the phone?
@erinnelson92 ONE of purposes of a prophet was to tell of the coming of the messiah. Latter Day Saints are Christians, we are not anti- christian, not anti-truth, ....etc etc.... I really do not care if you think I am a christian or not. I am not going to lose any sleep tonight because erinnelson92 does not think that I am a Christian. The ONLY person that I am concern about if I am a follower of Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior himself. A Christian are followers of Christ.
@erinnelson92 Prophets had more responsibility than telling of the coming of the messiah. Latter Day Saints are very much Christians. Really we do not care if you think we are or not. I know I am not going to lose any sleep tonight because you think and say that I am not Christian. In fact you might want to look at yourself and examine yourself about if you are Christian or not. If memory serves Jesus said not to judge. I know also that a telephone call would be of no use. Take care.
It's in the heart I believe. See Acts 3:19; Matt 13:15; Acts 28:27; Joel 2:12; Acts 2:37 I know you may not believe the Book of Mormon but I like these passages very much.
Yes, it is true that faith without works is dead, but if you don't have the foundation of Jesus Christ by receiving Him through confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart, then your works will not get you anywhere. God bless you.
Good works are a part of faith. When I got saved by confessing with my mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believing in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I wanted to do good works. It was my joy to do good works, as it still is.
Any person who thinks that LDS doctrine teaches that it is the works themselves that save us does not understand what we teach. It really is as you just said it. When we humble ourselves and truly become converted to Christ the good works come naturally and are a side effect, if you will, of that true conversion. Only God knows the heart and he alone will judge us on our commitment to him; our conversion to him.
I cannot accept the fact that "by grace are ye saved after all you can do." My Bible tells me, "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." I also cannot trust my eternal soul to a burning in the bosom. The devil can give you that feeling. If we are saved by grace after all we can do, then grace cannot be grace. Because grace is unmerited favor. We cannot earn it. It is God's gift to us.
freedombolt, I am not questioning that you are sincere in saying what you are saying. What I am telling you is that if it were not for my Lord Jesus Christ, I would not be alive today. I was a drug addict, alcoholic, and heavily involved in witchcraft. When I turned my life over to Christ, he took all of that from me. Latter-day saints by and large are very nice people, I almost converted before I got saved.
If truth makes sense, please share the sources that you rely upon for truth (sound doctrine)...you know, so we can test to see that it "works" and that it is "sound". This would be logical, right?
The gospel itself testifies of it's truthfulness. No matter where I find truth it is truth. School, church, bible, Book of Mormon, people, books.....the question should be, in my opinion, how does one know when they've found truth. Is it true that the earth rotates around the sun? Yes. Where do I find that truth? Not in the Bible. So is the Bible the only source of truth. No.
If Jesus tells me that forgiving will ease my burden and I do it and it does is this not truth? Same everywhere.
God is the source of ALL truth regardless of where it is found. Religion, science, philosophy. All are from the same source and all are interconnected. Truth is truth is truth.
Jhn 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
We can encounter truth in lots of things -- some truth is contained in most lies as a lie is the twisting of what is true. Anything that is true is true only because it is in agreement/harmony with THE truth, the Lord Jesus Christ.
"Truth is not made; it just is. God conforms to truth and truth to God. They are one."
Only part I would drop above is "conforms" -- it suggests God becoming, or trying. God/ truth, as you said, just is - unchanging.
So using basic substitution; if Jesus Christ is THE truth, then Jesus Christ is God - Micah 5:2, the one born in Bethlehem is the One from everlasting - from forever. The only God (Isa 43:10) became flesh (Jn 1:14), God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16)
@freedombolt god doesn't owe you a damn thing you blasphemous mormon thats why your not christain and he put us on this planet to LIVE AND BE HAPPY AND PERFECT AND ITS NOT TO GO TO HEAVEN ITS TO LIVE ON EARTH READ A BIBLE NOT A FALSE BOOK WRITTEN BY A CHILD MOLESTOR
@erinnelson92 You are soooooo way out in right field that no one can see you. Latter Day Saints are Christians. A christian is anyone that believes in Jesus Christ and has accepted him as the Lord and Savior. Well I am a Latter Day Saint and I believe in our Lord and Savior and know that because of him and the atonement I can have the chance to live with Heavenly Father again.
@titansful i would love to talk to you do you have skype or an im? and lds are not christain they are gulible and decieve joesph was not a prophet, and there is ONE GOD, the whole world knows lds arent christain even satan knows that
@erinnelson92 A Christian is anyone that has excepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Latter Day Saints do except that. You have not talked to the whole world now have you? Many of my friends that are not LDS believe very much that I am a christian. I really do not care if you think I am one or not. I am not going to lose any sleep tonight because you think that I am not a christian. The only person I care about believing me is Jesus and his father in heaven.
@erinnelson92 Latter Day Saints are very much Christians. Probably more than you because we do what the Lord says when he said Thous shalt not judge. I have a lot of friends that are not LDS and they say that I am very much a christian. I am not going to lose any sleep tonight worrying that you do not think that I am a christian. The only person that I care about that subject is my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
@titansful "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).
"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).
"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).
I believe God gives us a mind for a reason. The mind can learn and use reason and logic. Reason is truth. Logic is truth. Here's the deal. If I tell someone that two plus two equals four and then I demonstrate that truth with four apples the person should see and understand the concept. It makes sense. It is sound. It works. If the person denies the truth of it that doesn't make the logic any less true. Right? God's word should make sense. Truth makes sense.
LDS doctrine is only considered 'sound' or 'consistant' after years of evolution, revision, and omission and/or addition. Taken as a whole, it really makes no sense because the Mormon god can't keep his own doctrine straight nor can he keep his church together. This, of course, is the reason that the Mormon god isn't the Biblical God.
moparmonster1965 2 months ago
@moparmonster1965 Yes, because the true doctrines of God have never changed. We all still offer the sacrifices of our unblemished bullocks and rams to the Levite priests. We eat only unleavened bread and abstain from pork. Well, I gotta run... I have a public stoning to get to. I bought polished granite for this one and can't wait to try it out.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@sirnathan Judaism and its evolution to Christianity is far and away different from Mormonism going from being what it started out as to what it became and is today.
The priesthood was required to keep the lineage clean and pure (as much as is possible for human beings) for the coming of Christ. Mormonism, however, tries to be both Old and New Testament, while managing to fail at both.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 I won't argue with you on that point, as people have vastly different ideas as to success and failure. From my perspective, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints seems to be succeeding wildly.
I will say that you speak of Judaism and Christianity as though they were/are ever unified doctrines and creeds. Yet countless sects did/do exist for both. Read anything by Bart D. Ehrman. Christian creed and practice is as vast and varying as translations of the Bible.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@sirnathan So success equals correctness? I guess you'd better buy a Rosary and start going to Catholic Mass because they outnumber Mormons more than a hundred to one. But of course that's not correct; that would be a stupid thing to assume, wouldn't it?
United? Far from it, and cults like Catholicism and Mormonism have helped to farther divide Christian from non-Chriostian doctrine and belief.
The main point of the Bible has yet to change, and the different editions don't prove it wrong.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 No, I don't think success equals correctness, especially about convincing others of the true nature of God. Look at Christ's mortal ministry. He preached to tens of thousands, yet at His death, none but a handful followed Him in the old world. He had a SLIGHTLY larger following in the Americas. Volumes of research has documented how that small handful became confused and divided before Christ's death, and even moreso after His death.
sirnathan 1 month ago
The 'other sheep' (John 10:16) have nothing to do with fictional people. In fact, those people are clarified in Romans 10:19,29 as people who sought Him not, so that does not fit the non-existant people found in Joseph Smith's BOM.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@sirnathan You brought it up and I refuted it. Numbers don't actually equal an endorsement any more the LDS misuse of His name does.
The problem is that Jesus didn't have any following in ancient America since there were no Lamanites, Nephites, Jaredites, or anyone else in the BOM.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 Likewise, LDS members in the world are SEVERELY outnumbered by most all religious sects. The argument for, and against the LDS Church comes down to ONE thing... perspective. It is your perspective that LDS Church is a cult, and worships a false Christ. And I bet you can prove it by the Bible. That, my friend, is your perspective and personal interpretation, which I'm sure you feel is a correct interpretation of the Bible.
sirnathan 1 month ago
Mormons use the same terminology that Christians do, but affix another very different definition to them, which fundamentally changes the meaning. This is the language barrier that confuses many Christians when they speak to the missionaries and leads them to believe that Mormons hold true the same things that they do, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@sirnathan Yes, the LDS perspective is a unique thing--based on the warped misunderstanding of the Bible, God, and salvation held by Joseph Smith. It's that distorted starting point from which Mormonism moves farther away from Christianity and Biblical standards.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 Do you honestly feel that any Christian sect believes its perspective incorrect? The notion is absurd! LDS members feel they interpret the Bible correctly, as do Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Christian Scientists, Catholics, Moonies, Pentecostals, Unitarians, Nondenominationalists, 7th Day Ads, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mennonites, Quakers, Shakers, and every other Holy Roller! So congrats for FINALLY getting it right! Now go out and tell the rest!
sirnathan 1 month ago
@sirnathan I came from Catholicism, and yes, it, too, is a cult. There are more than a few parallels between it and Mormonism. Are the others incorrect about certain things? Yes, probably, but I'm being called to drag the ugly truth about Mormonism into the light, and will get to the others later, if so required.
You forgot to mention Scientologists, another winner of a group.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 Well, by Merriam-Webster standards, most religions are cults. But I have found a solution to my predicament, and thereby am now no longer destined for hellfire. I renounced the Mormon church, knelt down beside a local Baptist preacher as he put his right hand on my back and screamed bloody murder into a microphone. I said the "Sinner's Prayer" and he said I was saved now and forever. I quickly rejoined the Mormon church, as I am now saved, never to fall.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@sirnathan I don't think God can be fooled as easily as you fooled yourself. Sorry.
There's a big difference between the Biblical Jesus and the Mormon jesus, Biblical salvation and Mormon exaltation. The difference extends to the nature of the Biblical God and the Mormon god, the nature of mankind and the Mormon concept of mankind.
Mormonism has almost nothing in common with Christianity, though most don't know it.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 No, this was a Baptist preacher... he understood the true gospel from the Bible. And he reads from the NIV! But I got saved... I mean I literally said the "Sinner's Prayer" for others to hear. I know I will be JUDGED ACCORDING TO MY WORKS, but Jesus CAN'T condemn me. He's already save me! So it doesn't matter what I do or don't do from this point on. I'll go to that glorious meeting in the air. I'll have that mansion on the hill! Now its time for fun!
sirnathan 1 month ago
@sirnathan The problem, which I've already highlighted, is that the Mormon jesus isn't the same as the Biblical Jesus, and therefore he can't save anyone. The LDS organization isn't of God and therefore has no authority to do anything, much less provide exaltation.
Saying a particular prayer isn't going to save you from Hell; it's the sttaitude toward the real Jesus Christ Almighty and the rejection of those false teachers misusing in His name.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 And I can tell you aren't just an agitator. You seem to honestly love the Lord Jesus Christ. And you are a very patient individual. What I am telling you is, I said the Sinner's Prayer to the Biblical Jesus, as defined by a Southern Baptist minister (not a Missionary Baptist, as they do not believe in "once saved, always saved" and will probably burn in Hell as a result). I did this when I was 16, and did so with complete sincerity.
sirnathan 1 month ago
Mormonism doesn't seem to subscribe to the "once saved, always saved" school of thought either, because there's no resting on one's laurels there. The church always has something for you to do, and that's the reason for the expression "there's no such thing as a Sunday Mormon." With Catholicism, however, there most certainly is.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
You can say the Sinner's Prayer all day long, but since it isn't recognized by the LDS in that manner, it doesn't do you any good. You're trying to stack the deck, but remember that as of 1820, all churches on earth were wrong and since none of them have changed much, if at all, they must still be so.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@sirnathan No, I'm not here to beat anyone up, but to try to show why Mormonism is wrong and why Christianity is right. Being rude and obnoxious sure isn't going to get me where I want to go, is it? I try to speak in humility while being wise as a serpent. As a human being, though, I probably fail more than I realize.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 Now I think we are on the same page and I truly respect that you are a man of God and a man for God. You may think we believe in different Christs, and I've come to the point in life where I don't even argue that anymore. I don't believe the way I do because I am Mormon. I am Mormon because I believe the way I do. Of all the many faiths I've dabbled in, it is the only one that not made sense, but felt right.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@sirnathan CORRECTION: not "only" made sense, but felt right.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 I learned "of" God from the prophets and apostles of old. But I did not "love" God until I learned that He still loves me as much as He loved them. When I was told that God still calls prophets, it didn't sound strange, or feel sacrilegious. Rather, it felt like something I had always known... and was simply remembering. I recognize the issues that cause confusion and concern from mainstream Christianity... but I can not ignore the peace I feel in Christ.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 Honestly... if I were anything but LDS, I wouldn't be sincere in my following of Christ. As to the JST, the reason it is not canonized is that the translation was not completed. We have much of what was revealed to Joseph, but the RLDS (now Community of Christ) owns the copyright, and we can not publish what we don't own. Finally, the corrections we DO have already are included as footnotes and appendages in the KJV.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 But the idea that the Bible is riddled inconsistencies and mistranslations didn't come from Joseph Smith. No way. That understanding has been known and accepted for centuries. As you have a background in Catholicism, you'll know that they recognize many writings that were common to the Bible centuries ago but have since been removed as apocryphal. Some obviously are, while some are sound doctrine and probably shouldn't have been removed.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 I went to The Holy Land Experience in Orlando and they have an EXHAUSTIVE collection of very old Biblical records. We're exerts of the OT that are carved into animal bone that dates back to centuries before Christ. There are NT exerts in Greek and Hebrew that pre-date the KJV by centuries. They show clear differences in wording and even meaning, and you have the luxury of comparing them side-by-side in glass cases. On a final note about the Bible...
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 The compilation of canonized scripture (which by the way, it was the Catholic church that ultimately decided what "should" be canonized... and if they have no authority, why should we accept those books as canon and not the MANY others that were in circulation for centuries after Christ's death?) was not a start-to-finish single project. These were written by different people, in different places, and at different times.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 People erroneously attribute the final compilation to the Nicene Council, (I've even heard LDS missionaries state this) but putting together various manuscripts into what we've come to know as The Bible took place long before and was a LONG process. In fact, early Greek compilations contained books that were not included in Roman compilations from the same time period... and vice versa. No one in the LDS church believes them to be the mistakes of God.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 To say so really would be blasphemous. But to say errors do no exist is to be... I don't really know the word. It isn't "daft", because it is human to want to find perfection in the world around us. However, God and Christ are the only sources of perfection. But it is to be... shall we say "selectively deaf, dumb, and blind". They are right there in plain text. I won't highlight them because I'm not going to reinvent a wheel that can easily be Googled.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 In closing. I do love Jesus Christ as I've come to know Him. If that is a different Jesus Christ than you love. We'll just have to love different people. The one I know is the one that lifts my heart when I am in my darkest hours and I can not offer my love to any other notion of God. I do believe that it is only Christ's sacrifice that can save us from our own sins. But I've never felt like faith alone made me worthy of that grace.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 Faith is the foundation that all works must be built upon. But look at the man that came to Christ seeking eternal life in Matthew 19. That guy came to Christ in full faith that Christ alone had the power to save him. Christ didn't say "Just keep breathing until death takes you. You're going to Heaven because of your faith". No way, he gave that guy a pretty demanding tasks to complete... and the guy was none too happy about having to sell everything and give to the poor.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 Lets say I truly did, in all sincerity, confess my sins and accepted your notion of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. If... even theoretically... I could then do all manner of good AND evil... and not be held accountable for it. If, because I was sincere in my faith for a moment in time... and then later fell away from my faith... and did all manner of VILE and FILTHY sins... was welcomed with open arms into the Glory of God...
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 I'd honestly rather spend an eternity in hell that live for a moment with a god like that. And if what my heart tells me is wrong... that might be just what I end up doing. But I mean that with all sincerity. I'd rather burn with those who did so much good in life yet worshiped the "wrong" god (or no god at all) then live with a god that gives free passes based solely upon someone's acknowledgement that Christ suffered for us... and was never required to obey God.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 I'm not saying you are wrong about that. I'm saying that I can not worship a deity that does not take my actions, works, and obedience to His commandments into consideration when deciding my worthiness to enter His kingdom. The day LDS leaders tell me that works are not essential is the day you see me walk away from the LDS church. never to return. Ok... FINALLY... I'm done. Feel free to write back but if I write back again, it will be a personal message to you. God bless.
sirnathan 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 Therefore, if Southern Baptist Jesus has the power to save, than I am saved and my later actions have no bearing on my soul's destination. I can return to worshiping Jesus Christ of the LDS Standard Works. Although I've tried to live a good life, I have the options of raping, pillaging, murdering, setting fire to churches, performing abortions, killing myself, and even cursing God's name and worshiping Lucifer. Regardless, I will dwell with him in Glory.
sirnathan 1 month ago
Yes, you have those options in life, but if you choose that path, the argument can be made that you were never saved in the first place, like Judas betraying Jesus. Was he saved? Probably not because if the Christian is full of the Holy Spirit and he was able to be possessed by Satan, it stands to reason that he was just another mechanism by which the plan of salvation came about.
And since the jesus of Mormonism isn't Jesus of the Bible, we're not exactly talking about the same thing.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 This is possible, because we are saved by grace through faith, not by our works. That trumps two other truths, and allows us to ignore them completely. First, no one is born with faith, it takes WORKS to build faith (praying, reading Bible, going to church, etc.) Second, the day of judgement is not yet come. Judgement determines whether we burn or not (Matt 13: 38-43), and we are judged according to our works, not the amount of faith we had (Rev 20:12).
sirnathan 1 month ago
You're also quoting the Bible when it's missing many 'plain and precious things,' so you really have no idea as to what parts are correct and what parts aren't. This is yet another major point because while the Mormon god ordered the Bible to be corrected and Joseph Smith twice claimed that he did, the church still hasn't canonized the JST.
Why?
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@sirnathan What Mormons and Catholics don't grasp is that works are an expression and an extension of our salvation and faith in God, not the yard stick by which we'll be judged alone. I'm not saying that they're not important, but that they come later, after faith and salvation, if they're going to be considered.
That's the reason my Muslim neighbor can do all kinds of favors for me, but they ultimately fall on deaf ears because he worships the Arabic moon god.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@moparmonster1965 I do apologize for so many responses. It's difficult to say what you need to when the length is limited. You can choose to acknowledge the Biblical teachings that our works do matter when it comes to Heaven or Hell. Or you can hang everything on a one-time gift of salvation. I really like the latter. It is convenient for me and infinitely easier. I can sin until I burn this world to ashes and there is no eternal consequence. I exploited a loophole.
sirnathan 1 month ago
No problem; these conversations can get lengthy and the 500 character-limit almost requires a huge number of posts.
That said, I never claimed that works don't matter, but rather that the LDS view of them is incorrect. Now I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or actually telling me what you believe here, but we both know that it doesn't follow the LDS world-view, so I'll assume the former.
There's also a major difference in the Mormon versus the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell.
moparmonster1965 1 month ago
@ChocolateFlowerz You seem to be a little scattered, CF. Just read your bible, trust in what it says. In it Jssus says, "you must be born again." Everything begins at that point. The Holy Spirit will then lead you to all truth -- in harmony with His Word.
Shalom
mtcanz 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz LDS indeed have taught the following...
"“As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.”
This means God was a man who has a god, who in turn was a man who had a god, etc., etc,. It's just simple math that in a few generations of this type of man-to-god theology, you'll have millions or trillions of gods. Yet ours will only be worthy of the worship of a tiny fraction of all worshippers.
Can you tell me how you became a Christian? What does that mean?
Shalom
mtcanz 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz
..."You use only certain scriptures for your purpose."..
I use the Scripture that best illuminates my point...as even Jesus did.
I listen for the Holy Spirit before I say or type a word.
..."I read them every morning and use them all"..
Are you claiming to read the entire Bible every morning?
I take what I have and let the Holy Spirit use it.
I don't even begin to pretend that I understand it all.
All the questions you asked in your video are answered by Revelation 4:11.
hammerogod 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz
I started studying Scripture when I was in the 1st grade.
I did intensive study when I was in my 30's...spending all of my free time in the Bible.
I have read it all and more.
I have thought, cried, prayed and pondered over the Scriptures for most of my life.
Yes "Works" are important, they are crucial...but the FIRST work is Repentance followed by Baptism.
Our 'Works" mean nothing to God until they are done out of love for Him.
Not as a "Duty" but as an "Offering".
hammerogod 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz
but coward those who refuse to believe,who kill,who sin sexually,
who does evil things,who worship idols,who tell lies,
who does evil magic,
all these will have a place in the lake of burning sulfur,
this is the second death rev 21:8
every knee shall bow,and every tongue shall confess that
Jesus Christ is lord and savior phillipians 2:10
everyday God is angry,angry with the wicked psalm 5:5
oceantalk1 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz
I am the way the truth and the life,
and the only way to the father is through me john 14:6,
people who believe in God son are not judged guilty,
those who do not believe have already been judged guilty,
because they have not believed in God one and only son,
they are judged by this fact,the light has come into the world,
but they did not want light,
they wanted darkness,
because they were doing evil things john 3:18-2
oceantalk1 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz
again by their fruits you shall know them
joseph smith failed prophecies
mormonism teach that you lds can become a God of Goddess,the bible say the great God of Israel is the only God that exist isaiah 43:10
mormonism teach the bom is more correct than the holy bible
mormonism teach Jesus had sex and begat children,
the bible say -
he had never sinned,and he had never lied 1 peter 2:22,
mormonism is a different gospel gal 1:8 warns us about.
oceantalk1 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz only God is good,now show me what I have lied about and I will show you lds false doctrine where it was said and taught.
plus your atheist friends don't believe in God cause they hide the truth with their evil lives,your atheist friends know that God exist he has shown himself through creation and what he has made,romans 1:18-21
There is a God
God's anger is shown from heaven against all the evil and
wrong things people do,by their own evil lives they hide the
truth romans
oceantalk1 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz first of all I'm a born again christian that is saved by grace,the biblical Jesus Christ is my lord and savior.
I attend a bible based church,I know what mormonism teach and believe I have studied lds false doctrine before. all atheist is going to hell if they die in their sins and for not believing rev 21:8.
I fear the great God of Israel,the fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.
oceantalk1 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz Im on board with you, faith leads to works, scripture is pretty clear on that one, no arguments from me on that. James 2 is another good passage that speaks on that subject. Im saying that God gave us faith, God gave us everything good, He owes us nothing. If we are saved by our works, then nobody is getting in to Heaven, thats why we need Jesus. Isaiah 64 is another good passage on our works. Thoughts?
gledy919 8 months ago
hammerogod 8 months ago
@ChocolateFlowerz
I didn't think you would get it.
It takes the Holy Spirit to make it clear.
'Nuff said.
hammerogod 8 months ago
Another brief thought:
"God knew the End from the Beginning"
Knowing what will happen in the End and having mankind fail to accept the provisions to make that End glorious via obedience does not undermine God's Justice or Mercy.
Knowing that some will not Believe and Obey does not discount God's Love, Justice, Fairness or Mercy.
Knowing that some will fail regardless of what God has done to prevent it does not reflect on God.
It reflects on mankind.
God knew that too.
From the Beginning.
hammerogod 9 months ago
Colossians 1:16 sums it up, read the last 3 words.
God made us for His purposes and gave us a framework within which to live.
We don't have to understand it.
Who would worship a being that was within the grasp of human understanding?
We make a tragic mistake when we try to understand the full concept of God.
God created us for His pleasure and so that we would have the pleasure of knowing Him.
He didn't Need us and He doesn't Owe us.
He did it to share His universe and the things it contains.
hammerogod 9 months ago
Cont--->
God knew that A&E would fail...that the "Garden" would not be the final solution or condition of mankind.
That was a part of a plan.
God wants the Glory, all of it belongs to Him, but He gave mankind a chance to attain a certain level of Glory without Him.
If A&E had succeeded they would have still been 'Created' beings.
God will not share His Glory with mankind on mankind's terms.
God had to demonstrate both His Power and His Love/Mercy.
He knew A&E would fail.
More-->
hammerogod 9 months ago
Cont (2) -->
By allowing A&E to fail God was able to present mankind with the ONLY way to get to know God on God's terms.
God did what it took to bring mankind into the 'Glory' that mankind tried to attain on it's own merits.
But He did it on His terms.
Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
How would we know that without the evidence of the 'Garden'?
How would we know that without the evidence of the wickedness of mankind since the 'Garden'?
hammerogod 9 months ago
Cont (3) -->
By making it impossible for mankind to 'Save' itself, or attain to any form of real 'Glory' without Him, God retained (and demonstrated) His rightful Power and Authority.
By providing a way for mankind to be 'Redeemed' ONLY via a move of God (Jesus, Cross, Death, Resurrection) God both restored what A&E threw away and brought the 'Glory' (all of it, for all time and beyond) back into His hands and His alone.
So much more, but not on YT.
Hope this presents you with thought food.
hammerogod 9 months ago
God owes us nothing. It is only by His undeserved love and kindness that we have anything. I do not know a whole lot, but I do know this,
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Ephesians 2:8-10
Repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, for Christ all we have.
gledy919 9 months ago 4
God doesnt owe you anything. If anything you owe him youre life. Youre not the creater God is the creater. so how can you see he owes you anything? Thats blasphemous.
bell12918 1 year ago
@bell12918 Are you telling me that you'd have been OK with God placing you here and never revealing himself to you in any way? No bible. No Jesus. Nothing. That was my "owe" that God owes me. If so, OK. I'm not fine with that.
freedombolt 1 year ago
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@freedombolt
Your quote:
..."Are you telling me that you'd have been OK with God placing you here and never revealing himself to you in any way?"...
The rejoinder:
John 14:5-14
Excerpt:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him."
hammerogod 9 months ago
one more thing we christians are saved by grace,what are you mormons saved by? I know you mormons are not saved,we christians send our love.
oceantalk1 1 year ago 2
@oceantalk1 Mormons are very much saved. Mormons are very much Christians.
titansful 1 year ago
Comment removed
oceantalk1 1 year ago
@oceantalk1 It says in James 1:5-6 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." "But let him ask in faith nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed." It say right there that we can ask God anything. Anything at all.
titansful 1 year ago
Comment removed
oceantalk1 1 year ago
oceantalk1 1 year ago 2
@oceantalk1 Sorry I do not see things like you do. Joseph was tared and feathered and was almost killed himself. There were many men in the Bible that had more than one wife, he claimed they were abomination only because they taught the scriptures of men and not of God. I was not there and neither were you to know if he had sex with under ages.
titansful 1 year ago
@actually there is proof its in the church history
erinnelson92 1 year ago
@oceantalk1 yes to bad lds cant see the lies
erinnelson92 1 year ago
I sometimes think we try to put God in our little box and try to understand his plan and throughout history man has tried to think like God and that won't happen. To all L.D.S people your doing that the most your human God is not, I believe that the only way truth will be reviled is if you have a personal relationship with our creator and stop trying to be one and therefore God can and will work wanders in your life.
S.K.A
stephenalbiston 2 years ago
Hey freedom liked your video as always just thought I would give you my 2 cents on your comment that 2+2=4 in heaven. I think one of the areas where we disagree is that the Father + The Son+ The Holy Spirit= One God.
servant4JC 2 years ago
@servant4JC How can they be one when many many times Jesus prayed to Heavenly Father? Was he praying to himself? Remember when Jesus was baptized and it says in Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice FROM heaven, saying this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well please." Did Jesus throw his voice or something? Stephen looked in to heaven and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Jesus is God of the Old Testament, but he also has a Father in Heaven.
titansful 1 year ago
@titansful the trinity is false, but the mormons are still not christain ther eis one god, go was never a sinner, mormons are anti-truth, anti-christain
erinnelson92 11 months ago
Enjoyed your video. Makes a ton of sense, and to me, that's a lot of what its all about, a gospel that makes sense and is not a mass of confusion. Thanks so much for sharing!
Grant
mormonanswerman 2 years ago
To me, the church just makes sense also! Thanks for sharing!
90Irocem 2 years ago
God is made so low in LDS doct. He's just one of an infinite # of gods, worthy of the worship of only his particular world -- not all creation. With each generation of men to gods, each god becomes an infinitesimally tinier fraction of the whole #.
I love Isaiah, too... 43:10, 11 "...And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior."
Acc. to LDS, my God & Savior is too big.
mtcanz 2 years ago 4
I can understand why you believe the way you do. I'd ask you to consider why I feel the way I do. To me the LDS doctrine enlarges God and raises him up. That may be hard for you to grasp but it's how I really feel. When I think of all that God is and has done for each of us it blows my mind.
Scripturally speaking why is the concept of multiple Gods so hard to grasp when in the third chapter of Genesis the phrases are used "ye shall be as gods" and "is become as one of US". Plural terms both.
freedombolt 2 years ago
"Feeling" he's big doesn't deal with the fact God is in fact infinitesimally small in LDS theology.
It was Satan who said, "Ye shall be as gods." That was a very bad thing -- false gods bad. Re: man becoming "as one of us" -- there is a plurality in the godhead ("Elohim") and also there were angels. And the bible explains "as one of us" - they now knew good from evil.
Unlike the above explanations, you need to twist the Isaiah 43 verses to make them fit LDS. What they say is very plain.
mtcanz 2 years ago
Well, we're all entitled to our own opinion. Are you a fan of CS Lewis? He disagrees with your position here. Often what we think is very plain is not so plain. Why else are there so many denominations today with so many different creeds all coming from one source; the bible? Apparently not so plain or else there would not be so many different interpretations of the scriptures.
freedombolt 2 years ago
In another video of yours you said you don't like when someone simply answers a scripture challenge by saying in effect, "well, what about this scripture?" I can appreciate that. So why not just answer what Isaiah 43 means?
Or how a god who is one of infinite gods can be big when he's worthy of only the worship of the tiniest of fractions of the whole of creation?
I know these are hard questions. I'm not trying to be mean, but am pressing...because it's important.
God bless you
mtcanz 2 years ago
OK. I don't know what that scripture means. I don't have all the answers. This much I do know. It happens every day that ideas held as truth come under scrutiny and are sometimes flipped on their heads. The statement that the world is flat is true (from a certain perspective) but in reality when you back up far enough it's round. So can a person say the earth is flat and have that be a true statement while someone else says the earth is round and have that be true too? Relativity.
freedombolt 2 years ago
The truth of God's Word does not change. If the Word of God is the standard, the most important questions are not hard. It's only with the introduction of shared authority that difficulty arises.
Is 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
He promised it would stand forever -- not that it would become corrupt and need restoration.
I hope the best for you, fdb.
Shalom
mtcanz 2 years ago
I agree. The truth of Gods Word does not change and his word shall stand forever. Just because humanity doesn't understand correctly Gods word it does not make it void or change it. I believe that Gods word has not passed away. The things He said would happen will happen. The truths are still true. I just believe that the majority of humanity is deceived and does not understand Gods Word.
freedombolt 2 years ago
When the scriptures use the phrase "Most High God" why is it phrased that way? Why not say, "God who is high" or some other variation of that? The presence of the word MOST is interesting to me. It denotes that there are at least three. If there were one God it should say "The High God". If two "the Higher God" but it says "Most High God". If that's to be taken literally then there must be Gods who are high but not as high as the MOST HIGH GOD. Yes?
freedombolt 2 years ago
The title El Elyon (Most High God) appears in scripture amidst countless false gods. Abram's from Ur, where they worshipped the moon and other idols/gods. God - THE God -- the "I AM" - IS the Most High God. Of all the things you can make into a god -- of all that you could worship -- He -- El Elyon -- is the Most High. There is none higher.
Besides Doug, any god who is just the latest in an infinite # (LDS) is far from Most High, don't you think? The title would no longer fit.
Shalom
mtcanz 2 years ago
@freedombolt BECAUSE THERE'S MANY FALSE GODS YOU ARE STUPID CAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN A FALSE PROPHET AFTER THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS DONT BELIEVE ANY ANGEL OF LIGHT
erinnelson92 1 year ago
@erinnelson92 Also says in Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Just because the Bible went into print that does not mean that the Lord has stopped talking. If any generation through time needed a prophet it would be this generation with all the bad in the world.
titansful 1 year ago
@titansful that was old testament, the new testament say hebrews 1:1,2 we dont need prophets anymore because we have jesus, mormoms are christain any ways
erinnelson92 1 year ago
@erinnelson92 They did not need prophets while Jesus was here on Earth, but he is not here not is he? I really believe we need prophets now more than ever.
titansful 1 year ago
@titansful not true the point of a propher was to tell about a coming messiah jesus jesus came no point of a prophet now, jesus said it was finished when he died, and said the holy spirit will tell us all thing we need to know, and jesus said we do not need prophets because we have jesus, he said in the last days, we are living in the last days, so we need the perfect son not a lying thomas monson, mormons are not christain, if your interested I would love to help you come to know the christ?
erinnelson92 1 year ago
@erinnelson92 There were a lot more to being a prophet than just proclaim the coming of Jesus. I am really sad that you think that that is all they did. They also make know God's will, taught about God's character, preserve and edit the records, denounce sin, foretell its punishment, a preacher of righteousness. When the people had fallen away from a true faith in Jehovah, the prophets had to try to restore that faith. Sometimes they predicted future events. I know Christ. He is my savior.
titansful 1 year ago
@titansful Wrong there purpose was to tell of a coming messiah, everything they did prepared for jesus, and ldds are not christain, read the comments lds are anti-christain, they are anti-truth, and pro-man, you will never become a god, blacks were never cursed, and jesus and satan are not brothers, their is no heavenly mother, and no pre-exsitence, You are so blaspemous it's sicking. do you want to tlk over the phone?
erinnelson92 11 months ago
@erinnelson92 ONE of purposes of a prophet was to tell of the coming of the messiah. Latter Day Saints are Christians, we are not anti- christian, not anti-truth, ....etc etc.... I really do not care if you think I am a christian or not. I am not going to lose any sleep tonight because erinnelson92 does not think that I am a Christian. The ONLY person that I am concern about if I am a follower of Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior himself. A Christian are followers of Christ.
titansful 11 months ago
@erinnelson92 Prophets had more responsibility than telling of the coming of the messiah. Latter Day Saints are very much Christians. Really we do not care if you think we are or not. I know I am not going to lose any sleep tonight because you think and say that I am not Christian. In fact you might want to look at yourself and examine yourself about if you are Christian or not. If memory serves Jesus said not to judge. I know also that a telephone call would be of no use. Take care.
titansful 11 months ago
How do you believe a person is converted?
funnydawg12 2 years ago
It's in the heart I believe. See Acts 3:19; Matt 13:15; Acts 28:27; Joel 2:12; Acts 2:37 I know you may not believe the Book of Mormon but I like these passages very much.
Helaman 15:7; Mosiah 5:2; Alma 5:12-14
I believe all these passages indicate that a sincere desire for the things of God followed up with a turning from our evil ways shows true conversion.
If your question is more on how a person begins the conversion process then I think the latter part of Romans 10 is good.
freedombolt 2 years ago
Yes, it is true that faith without works is dead, but if you don't have the foundation of Jesus Christ by receiving Him through confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart, then your works will not get you anywhere. God bless you.
funnydawg12 2 years ago
Couldn't have said it better.
freedombolt 2 years ago
Good works are a part of faith. When I got saved by confessing with my mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believing in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I wanted to do good works. It was my joy to do good works, as it still is.
funnydawg12 2 years ago
Any person who thinks that LDS doctrine teaches that it is the works themselves that save us does not understand what we teach. It really is as you just said it. When we humble ourselves and truly become converted to Christ the good works come naturally and are a side effect, if you will, of that true conversion. Only God knows the heart and he alone will judge us on our commitment to him; our conversion to him.
Thanks.
freedombolt 2 years ago
I cannot accept the fact that "by grace are ye saved after all you can do." My Bible tells me, "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." I also cannot trust my eternal soul to a burning in the bosom. The devil can give you that feeling. If we are saved by grace after all we can do, then grace cannot be grace. Because grace is unmerited favor. We cannot earn it. It is God's gift to us.
funnydawg12 2 years ago
Thanks for your comment.
freedombolt 2 years ago
Let me ask you a question:
At the judgement day...are you judgeed by your faith or by your works or both?
imtherealthing 2 years ago
Both. They go hand in hand.
Matt 16:27 and particularly Rev 20:12-13.
freedombolt 2 years ago
Exactly what I want this guy funnydawg12 to get through his THICK skull...sorry meant to reply to his message about faith only garbage.
imtherealthing 2 years ago
Read my reply below
imtherealthing 2 years ago
freedombolt, I am not questioning that you are sincere in saying what you are saying. What I am telling you is that if it were not for my Lord Jesus Christ, I would not be alive today. I was a drug addict, alcoholic, and heavily involved in witchcraft. When I turned my life over to Christ, he took all of that from me. Latter-day saints by and large are very nice people, I almost converted before I got saved.
funnydawg12 2 years ago
If truth makes sense, please share the sources that you rely upon for truth (sound doctrine)...you know, so we can test to see that it "works" and that it is "sound". This would be logical, right?
holidays61397 2 years ago
The gospel itself testifies of it's truthfulness. No matter where I find truth it is truth. School, church, bible, Book of Mormon, people, books.....the question should be, in my opinion, how does one know when they've found truth. Is it true that the earth rotates around the sun? Yes. Where do I find that truth? Not in the Bible. So is the Bible the only source of truth. No.
If Jesus tells me that forgiving will ease my burden and I do it and it does is this not truth? Same everywhere.
freedombolt 2 years ago
So your sources for "sound doctrine" come from school, church, Book of Mormon, people, books...did I miss any?
holidays61397 2 years ago
God is the source of ALL truth regardless of where it is found. Religion, science, philosophy. All are from the same source and all are interconnected. Truth is truth is truth.
But what is truth?
freedombolt 2 years ago
Doug wrote: "But what is truth?"
Jhn 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
We can encounter truth in lots of things -- some truth is contained in most lies as a lie is the twisting of what is true. Anything that is true is true only because it is in agreement/harmony with THE truth, the Lord Jesus Christ.
mtcanz 2 years ago
To take that a step further then...........
If Christ is truth--and I agree that he is--then who or what is Christ? Why is He truth? What is it about Him that makes Him so?
Truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come.
Truth is not made; it just is. God conforms to truth and truth to God. They are one.
freedombolt 2 years ago
"Truth is not made; it just is. God conforms to truth and truth to God. They are one."
Only part I would drop above is "conforms" -- it suggests God becoming, or trying. God/ truth, as you said, just is - unchanging.
So using basic substitution; if Jesus Christ is THE truth, then Jesus Christ is God - Micah 5:2, the one born in Bethlehem is the One from everlasting - from forever. The only God (Isa 43:10) became flesh (Jn 1:14), God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16)
Shalom
mtcanz 2 years ago
@freedombolt god doesn't owe you a damn thing you blasphemous mormon thats why your not christain and he put us on this planet to LIVE AND BE HAPPY AND PERFECT AND ITS NOT TO GO TO HEAVEN ITS TO LIVE ON EARTH READ A BIBLE NOT A FALSE BOOK WRITTEN BY A CHILD MOLESTOR
erinnelson92 1 year ago
@erinnelson92 You are soooooo way out in right field that no one can see you. Latter Day Saints are Christians. A christian is anyone that believes in Jesus Christ and has accepted him as the Lord and Savior. Well I am a Latter Day Saint and I believe in our Lord and Savior and know that because of him and the atonement I can have the chance to live with Heavenly Father again.
titansful 1 year ago
@titansful i would love to talk to you do you have skype or an im? and lds are not christain they are gulible and decieve joesph was not a prophet, and there is ONE GOD, the whole world knows lds arent christain even satan knows that
erinnelson92 1 year ago
@erinnelson92 A Christian is anyone that has excepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Latter Day Saints do except that. You have not talked to the whole world now have you? Many of my friends that are not LDS believe very much that I am a christian. I really do not care if you think I am one or not. I am not going to lose any sleep tonight because you think that I am not a christian. The only person I care about believing me is Jesus and his father in heaven.
titansful 1 year ago
@erinnelson92 Latter Day Saints are very much Christians. Probably more than you because we do what the Lord says when he said Thous shalt not judge. I have a lot of friends that are not LDS and they say that I am very much a christian. I am not going to lose any sleep tonight worrying that you do not think that I am a christian. The only person that I care about that subject is my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
titansful 1 year ago
@titansful "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).
"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).
"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).
solomanspaming 11 months ago
Hi Doug...great to see you back at "work"! Question: define 'sound doctrine'. What specific sources do you rely on for 'sound doctrine'?
holidays61397 2 years ago
Hey Kelly. Back at work?! ; )
I believe God gives us a mind for a reason. The mind can learn and use reason and logic. Reason is truth. Logic is truth. Here's the deal. If I tell someone that two plus two equals four and then I demonstrate that truth with four apples the person should see and understand the concept. It makes sense. It is sound. It works. If the person denies the truth of it that doesn't make the logic any less true. Right? God's word should make sense. Truth makes sense.
freedombolt 2 years ago