Brilliant lecture. Nice to see somebody clearing up the whole 'Moonlight' issue. Although,on a technical level, what he's says about the tempo is correct - as it's cut common time. However, tempo has got to be one of the most ambiguous things in music. When I tried playing the movement through at that tempo, it didn't feel right. So I'll always play it slower than this. If a composer marks a piece with "Adagio" - that can mean a lot of things - tempo is down to interpretation IMO.
Couldn't it be played on Beethoven's instrument he owned at the time to determine the use of the pedal - weakness and its sustaining effect. It would give a scale as most music at the time 1801 wasn't pedalled?
I think I prefer this piece played at multiple tempos. Each part and verse and climb and decent in the song requires emphasist and can be very very persuasive if played right. I've yet to find someone who plays it right.
btw, for those that liked this, Schiff did a lecture for each sonata. Just google search 'schiff guardian unlimited'.
It's fantastic and I would love to hear something else like it, for example a Chopin Preludes version or a Mozart Piano Sonatas version.. My god, the latter would be incredible.
A lot of pianists play the first movement at this tempo. Schiff isn't entirely unique in that sense, but it shocks people, I guess, to hear it in a faster tempo, and what I agree is the correct and accurate tempo. Not that I mind the 'conventional' one.
Expert view but I like the slow one, not that I know that it is right or not; but it sound so zen like, so ... may be not Beethoven but it is better to me. But I like different view. Only through difference we know alternatives and can choose. Do not dogma but if the tradition is ok, nothing wrong with being in the tradition as well. As one said author is dead.
Also, sometimes original may not be what you might like. Imagine that all Greek sculpture have color -- yes they do! b&w I like.
Expert view but I like the slow one, not that I know that it is right or not; but it sound so zen like, so ... may be not Beethoven but it is better to me. But I like different view. Only through difference we know alternatives and can choose. Do not dogma but if the tradition is ok, nothing wrong with being in the tradition as well. As one said author is dead.
I have always played the first movement at the speed he plays it! I feel so validated now, knowing that a professional agrees with me. It is so much prettier - especially the left-hand melody - played at a faster tempo.
Since he mentioned it as a 'sister piece' to the Moonlight, he must be talking about the Piano Sonata No. 13 in E flat major, Op. 27, No. 1 'Quasi una fantasia'
@bboymango So far as I understand , M° Schiff puts on parallel the usual nickname of "Moonlight Sonata", which appears to have nothing to do with the spirit, the background of this work, and what it really sounds, a "Revolutionary Sonata ", which could be explained by the fact it begins with an Adagio sostenuto", instead of an "Allegro" (or any faster movement that usually starts a Sonata).
@bboymango I think he was talking about the first sonata of the set, Op. 27 No. 1, as he refers to the moonlight as the "sister work". Personally I've always liked Op. 27 No. 1 ever since I first heard it, you should give it a listen.
He plays the first movement far too fast! It's suppose to be sad! And you can practically get up and start dancing to his interpretation!
But overall i agree with his interpretation. He has a real keen insight into the music and the meaning isn't lost in his playing. I always appreciate his thoughts and playing of all music. But my greatest criticism for him is that he's faithful to the composer's score to a fault. And that too can overshadow the music at times...
@brassmonkeyjew , i am confused....what else can be more important than the composer's instructions and wishes ??? you can certainly add/supposed to add your own, but ONLY along the lines of his thoughts/intentions. i don't mean to sound schoolmasterly, but this kind of thinking causes EXACTLY the type of warped interpretations against which his whole masterclass is about !
I have always liked it better the fast way (that is, if you don't think of actual moonlight). The faster you play the first movement, the more the actual lines will show up, and Schiff showed more than enough evidence that he is most probably the one being right about this.
I like both his interpretaion of the first movement and the slower ones too (like Wilhelm Kempff). This sonata is flexible; there are infinite ways to play it "perfectly".
Beethoven would never have given instructions to make the tones all mixed up. What a nonsense. On pianos of his time the ring tone was rather short. That is a decisive difference and the reason why other pianists said "you can't do it".
What sound Schiff produces here is just as brilliant as his Italian and English.
It's not at all nonsense. The "ring tone" as you so naively put it was, indeed, somewhat shorter, but the Broadwoods (one of which Beethoven owned) built toward the end of his life had much more sustaining power and resonance. Beethoven DID give instructions to hold the pedal throughout this movement (not to make the tones all mixed up). Get hold of a GOOD edition and read what Beethoven writes at the beginning of the movement. I own a facsimile of the complete sonata. His words are there.
"ring tone?" by this, do you mean the "decay" of the sound? (how long it takes for the sound to dissipate.) I've never heard the term "ring tone." What does it mean?
Sorry, I'm a convert. If B. says to hold the pedal down, then hold the pedal down. I can't do it myself, but I can follow his intention to make the piece far more murky than generally played. As for the tempo, I'm sold for a number of reasons. The half-time, the Don Giovanni reference, and the melodic flow of the quarter notes. But most importantly, even before ever hearing this analysis, I knew something was wrong. Winsome poetic musing is simply not Beethoven. The piece is newly born for me.
I like hearing Schiff's interpretation of this well-known piece. It shows a different side of this piece I hadn't heard before. Many people may not agree with it, but oh well. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Fascinating interpretation of this piece. Its really interesting to hear someone play this quicker than other pianists, but at least he has a valid argument as to why he plays the piece the way he does.
whether you disagree with him or not I believe its very good to listen to all opinios and ofcourse all opinios of people who know what they are saying and andras schiff is one excelent pianist, for bach at least I consider him one of the best
I agree with the tempo at the 4:50.. I find it very good but the other ways are eitrher tioo fast or too slow.. at least thats how I feel it and understand it... he sertenly has done his research and many others also so its just opinios...
It can sound good at pretty much any tempo if played with the right hands, however his bad pedaling here is inexcusable especially for an artist of Schiff's stature.
If Schiff is so adamant about following Beethoven's cut-time indication, then why does he blatantly disregard other important indications, like Bach's common time in the Gigue from Partita 1? Bach did NOT indicate cut-time in this piece, yet all performers (including Schiff) play it as though it were in alla breve. Also, that Beethoven indicated pedal throughout the first movement does not necessarily imply to never change it. Schiff is a great pianist but not so good of a theorist.
BachScholar, do you think it's honestly fair to say that and claim that about him--such strong words. And in terms of this lecture, he is pointing out historical facts about the approach to this piece. Maybe you can ask him questions about his other choices in theory but to say he is not so good a theorist, is to imply you are better, strong words to direct at someone who can't defend themselves. And remember, everything you know, is in a sense, is subjective knowledge.
Maybe I was a little too harsh. I respect Schiff and do like much of his playing, but I really take issue with his belief that the cut-time means a fast tempo. Also, I take issue with holding the pedal down throughout the whole movement. His historical info is nice and informative, but that is really not "theory", so I still say he isn't a good theorist.
BachScholar, I don't believe I would use the term "theorist" to describe Schiff's interpretive style as a pianist. He is basing his understanding of this Beethoven Sonata on authentic historical--if somewhat anecdotal--evidence drawn from Beethoven's sketches, conversa-tions, etc. Schiff makes no pretense to analyze harmonic/melodic structure etc. He merely illustrates his understanding as a performer of what he believes to be Beethoven's intentions as a composer, for good or ill.
I don't use the term "theorist" to imply analyzing harmonc/melodic elements, but rather as a more general term when one explains their interpretive approach. Schiff is "theorizing" or explaining why he plays it faster (which sounds bad) and uses big washes of pedal (which also sounds bad).
"sounds bad" is a very subjective term--better to admit that it is not to your taste rather than assume that a summary dismissal of Schiff's artistry will suffice for all listeners.
Most listeners here are biased without even knowing it, simply due to the fact that Schiff is famous. Imagine if an unknown person (like me) recorded this fast with the pedal down throughout. I guarantee it would be the laughing stock of YouTube and that everyone would agree that it sounds terrible. What then makes it all of a sudden great and "artistic" if done by someone who is world famous? Do you see how most listeners are just biased because they are afraid to disagree with Schiff?
Okay, enough with your generalizations about "most listeners" and other hypothetical conjections. I personally have listened to scores of different interpretations of the Beethoven sonatas and have my own ideas about who is best able to convey an intimate understanding of the composer's intentions. I am not particularly biased in favor of Schiff's work, but at least he backs up his thesis with strong evidence. Serious listeners will surely laugh off your opinionated assertions.
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But I am right you have to admit. Because Schiff is famous, people are less apt to question his interpretation than if any anonymous Joe did the same thing. Schiff plays it too fast. Czerny marks it at about 54 bpm (which comes from Beethoven himself), which is closer to B's intentions than Schiff's 72 or faster. Not only is it too fast, the pedaling is incorrect. Schiff is very far from capturing B's intentions and I can't believe people are so gullible as to believe his theoretical hogwash.
Czerny's metronome marking does not come from Beethoven. I agree that Schiff is a BIT too fast, but his pedalling is exactly as Beethoven asks for. It's right there in the score...you can't deny what's in black and white. In regard to your earlier statement...if YOU were to play this the same way I certainly would not laugh but call you a brave individual for having the courage to actually follow the score and not follow convention.
@BachScholar theoretical hogwash??? what happened to good old humility?you can certainly have your opinion, but how can you kill the statement of someone of his stature? there are countless reasons why he is where he is, like spending countless hours in libraries, reading documents, which are not accessible for us, mere mortals, in 6 languages, playing on and living with composers' instrument at their original locations, finding out acoustical laws and what they might have heard while composing
@BachScholar 2. and trying to transpose it into our world. next to brendel, he might be one of the few great, thinking and thought-provoking performer today. as you have probably also experienced it during your recording career for major labels, in today's halls and studios one needs to play faster tempi than in yesteryear's palaces with their over-resonant chambers to achieve similar effects. again, i'm not questioning your opinion, just the attitude.
@BachScholar 3. Having a DMA from Kansas State is a wonderful thing, but maybe he also put in the necessary hours, at the right places into his own education ? So, reading your comment and profile - was certainly like a breath of fresh air, in its undiluted, and most impressive amount of arrogance.
His understanding has nothing to do with evidence drawn from the sketchbooks, conversations, etc.-anecdotal or otherwise. The "historical" evidence he draws from is that found in the score of the sonata. As he states, we have the manuscript (I own a facsimile of the complete autograph) and all you need is there. The most complete "interpretation" one can present will always be one most closely in line with the composer's instruction. Everything you need is right in the score.
I agree that the primary source--in this case, the original manuscript--is the best source, but Beethoven's sketchbooks ARE primary sources because they contain his notes and schemas for many of his compositions. However, I disagree that there is such a thing as a "complete" interpretation. After all, we are talking about ART, not SCIENCE.
I didn't say that the sketchbooks WEREN'T good sources. They are good for seeing Beethoven's original ideas, but they are exactly what they're called-sketches and not really very helpful when it comes to direction for performance. I said that Schiff's understanding, here, has nothing to do with any evidence drawn from them, which is true. You'll notice that "interpretation" is in quotes, because if your performance is one aligned with the composers' intentions then it's not really interpretation
I doubt that one can make the case that Schiff restricts his understanding of Beethoven's intentions solely to notations in the score. That is not the holistic approach I'd expect from such a learned musician. Anyway, you cannot make that assertion without asking Schiff himself. As for your comment on interpreting a "composer's intentions," this becomes somewhat of a philosophical issue when one considers that art is experienced subjectively.
I can, in fact, make this assertion, in regard to the first movement. Schiff has not studied any sketches for the first movement, since there are none. Only 5 sketches for this sonata survive and they all relate to the third movement. As to interpretation, there's nothing philosophical about it. Interpretation is a term too often associated with artistic license. If we're to interpret what the COMPOSER says then it cannot be about what Kenny or petrina say.
cont. We should act as a medium for the composer in conveying his/her intentions,i.e. a mouthpiece. We decide through thorough scholarship that our performance allows the composer to speak. Of course any performance will have a personal fingerprint, but it shouldn't be one that takes away from, or adds to the score. It's not about us...we are merely a go-between.
Yes, obviously. The manuscript and the surviving sketches for the third movement are incredibly interesting to study. Should you ever have the opportunity to look them over I'm sure you'll thoroughly enjoy it. I've studied the majority of the piano sonata manuscripts and or/first editions (whichever is available) and it's an amazing experience to do so.
While it's true that Beethoven was explicit in his directives for how to play his music, it still begs the question as to whether or not interpretation is merely an exercise in exactitude or ultimately a personal expression of how an artist derives and conveys MEANING from music.
ofc the performer ultimately expresses what they themselves see in a piece. nevertheless, it is important to try and reconstruct the composer's intention because (as Schiff says) he had a reason for that. as far as I am concerned, Beethoven is the maestro and not myself, he is the greater musician and what he thought of will always be better than whatever I think of.
@revilo178 I think this is off base. Music if meant to be living, breathing, changeable. If I recall, correctly, Beethoven himself told a student something to the effect of, "That is not exactly how I would've read it, but even so, perhaps it is something better than myself." There are multiple ways to interpret a piece, often times, and even within the boundries of what's on the page. Composers, themselves might interpret their own work several ways--so which is "correct"?
@revilo178 Furthermore, Beethoven is not necessarily better than you. I think it's actually valid to think that maybe your idea is better than Beethoven's. Overall, Beethoven is probably a superior composer to you, but that doesn't mean everything he thought is the will of God. Like everyone else, he's not perfect and you might think of something better than him.
Either way, it's almost irrelevent. He's dead, now, so at best we have educated guesses as to what he thought.
@throwscats so are you saying that we should not bother to inquire what the composer intended or are you just correcting the exaggerations of my post?
@BachScholar May I say that , if you listen to the syncopes baambabam (sorry, how else could I show it here :-)) don't you hear a funeral march here?! Compare to Chopin's funeral march. And why should a funeral march be so fast?!
It's hard to agree with everything he says, especially the first movment. but yes indeed if there is no mixture of harmonies and disonace in certain places it becomes grandmother music. taking one pedal throughout is a abit too much imo... I liked what he had to say about the 2nd movment.... and 3rd, very nice. I never really knew to give a specific meaning to the crec-dim's of the second subject... thanks for adding this!
I liked what he said about the first movment actually, i prefer it this way . and wen you listen to the Don giovanni Ah soccrosso son tradito u'll hear it out right away.
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11:30 - not in sonata form? I disagree. it has the requisite key changes and development. 3rd mvt is in sonata form too.
"with pedal" does not mean "always with pedal". Andras Schiff added words and thereby changed the meaning. The result is a disasterous, swampy effect.
The words Schiff refers to are indeed in the piece. And this aint in Sonata form: there is no development section, nor is there really a secondary key area as it functions in sonata structure...
Development begins in F# minor with the theme. Like Brahms sonata specimens, there's a Development and repeated Exposition effect for the price of one. Lengthy LH G# pedal sets up the Recapitulation. Theme II is the erlkonig sounding bar that begins with a flat 9 in the RH. Coda is the rescored "leave them humming" theme.
As to "without sordino", at 6:02 (begins at 5:22), there's an 1802 First Edition online. If anybody has the "manuscript" that Schiff refers to, please post. Even assuming Beethoven wrote it, I submit that a literal execution on a modern piano is a misinterpretation. I would prefer a modern "translation". 1/4 pedal doesn't work better than a full pedal. Having the dampers up a milliimetre would not result in a different sound than if they were up a centimetre or a metre.
You don't need to look at a first edition. As Schiff states, we have the manuscript. I own a facsimile of the complete autograph. Beethoven's words are there and they are what they are. 1/4 DOES work better than full. Try it. It's entirely possible. Any literal execution cannot be called misinterpretation, since you're no longer interpreting what the composer says, but actually following it verbatim, which should always be the case.
Concerning the tempo of the Adagio sostenuto, I think the passage following the mortal injury of the Commendatore in the opening scene of Mozart's Don Giovanni, as allegedly copied by Beethoven and thus perhaps formed the inspiration behind the music in question, ought to be an indisputable guide. I have seen this opera at the Mariinsky conducted by Valerie Gergiev and I have the video recording by Karajan.
They both played at approximately the same speed and I guess their choice of tempo is guided by both the character of the passage and by the natural flow of the words in the libretto as sung by the singers. Karajan does 56 crotchets per minute (if you count triplets as quavers, as in the Beethoven) !!!
I think although Andras Schiff has undoubtedly made great investigations and careful thinkings, he clearly misunderstands the essence of the funeral march and horribly contradicts his intentions. He fails to create the sense hollow atmosphere, the sense of deep sorrow and the shattering of hope and love.
Gilels, who never pretends to be an intellectual, achieves the right effect though instinct and sensitivity, which, alas, seems to be completely resisted by Schiff who plays too fast: totally unforgivable and unacceptable.
I have been cherishing the story of the beautiful blind pianist, who Beethoven heard from the cobble stone street. Beethoven climbed the stairs to her , where she was playing some simple notes she had composed. The moon was shining full. Beethoven was so struck by her, and by the music she shared, that he composed this piece the next day so that he might show her something of the beauty of the moonlight.
Actually, the sonata was never called "moonlight". The name was added later. Also, Beethoven composed this piece for his student the Countess Guilietta Guicciardi, whom he was in love with at the time. In the end, she married Count Gallenberg, who happened to be a lesser ballet composer.
Anyway, i've never heard that story before, but it sounds so sweet! Thanks.
His advice is so simple and direct. I've always had better luck playing the Beethoven sonatas which had a more classical technique or sound to them. The sonata quasi una fantasia and Appasionata were big disappointments because I couldn't really relate them to anything else. If I thought I played them well, I had to be missing something. It helps to be reminded Beethoven was a revolutionary. I really like Schiff's approach to Beethoven.
Sorry TintedReasoning, didn't mean to remove you comment.
Hmm. I love his interpretation but I simply can't agree with his rendition of it. His tempo is so stiff. I don't mind the relatively rapid tempo, but a bit of rubato playing seems to me to be the emancipating factor. Where it lacks movement
But even if this is the way Beethoven played it, you dont have to play it this way... If I like it another way I would play it in that way, then i dont look at the things written on the sheet. Then I dont think of the public, what they should think of the interpretation. Thats why Shiff told that its not usual to tell your interpretation to others.
silazioz, If you are not paying attention to what Beethoven wrote in the music you are not doing him justice. Not to say that everyone should play it the same way because that would make music cloned and boring but, you should pay attention to what Beethoven writes in the score or you are just pissing in the wind, LOL!
I really have to agree with his overall interpretation. I have heard the same comments from conductor Ben Zander. The only thing I'm not sure about the pedaling. Although it is marked to be held nearly the entire piece, the modern piano is far more resonant than the piano Beethoven would have been playing on. Overall, I agree with Schiff.
I almost turned it off after I heard him play it at the beginning. But now I'm glad I didn't... very interesting, regardless of execution, good or bad...
HeifetzBeatsOistrakh, I just got Schiff's live CD release of this and he plays it so straight forward with almost no rubato which is how I played it in my post but it's almost too stiff. I like Schnabel, Perahia, Van Cliburn and Horowitz. This piece need some freedom to me. I do not agree with his pedaling but he gives great insight!
im sorry, the first movement of the moonlight shouldn't be that fast, is he just doing it like that for the sake of being different?... like that it has no atmospere at all.
chrish12345, Schiff has a point about alla breve cut time. I don't mind his tempo, he is close to Schnabel. I don't agree with the pedal through out and this is why. Beethoven's piano's lacked the sustain of the modern grand and also just maybe he marked the pedal like that because of his increasing deafness but I understand what Schiff is trying to achive here. His recording of this lack any rubato. It is unbelievably straight.
The player on the modern piano obviously has to adapt Beethoven's pedal markings intelligently. I don't care what he does as long as it sounds respectable - what he does here is just perfunctory, almost to the point of shallowness.
This sonata is on his Volume IV installment of the Beethoven Sonatas. A very good recording. As to the first movement -- I agree with the tempo: Adagio Sostenuto. It's as if played in "2" and the right hand should be a circular pattern with "no exit," kind of close and sad. I'm not convinced by the "senza sordino" concept of playing the entire movement on one pedal vis a vis the modern concert grand. All in all, a wonderful performance tho, and this lecture is very interesting.
It is an Adagio Sostenuto to be played in 2/2. Very often, musicians play it too slow, having in mind the nickname "Moonlight" wich it is not! Beethoven was not happy at all with the title "Moonlight Sonata" given by the poet Rellstab who knew the musician. Beethoven said to his confident Holz that he improvised that first movement near the body of a dead friend. It is in reality a kind of funeral march.
If it is to be played at this speed, Schiff here doesn't do it very convincingly, in my opinion. In any case, even such a stickler for correctness such as Alfred Brendel says that the tempo should be left to the discression of the player. It should be a matter of taste, not something you read about in a book. You 'funeral march' argument would surely endorse a tempo of the upmost slowness?
To start with, nobody knows for sure what speed Beethoven wanted, so its not a question of 'repairing' anything, in the sense of deliberatley altering something fixed in stone. I am perfectly prepared to listen to it played at this speed if it is done convincingly - not convincingly for ME alone, but convinvinging in the way that I feel the player is BEST ABLE to express the composer's intentions. Schiff just doesn't do it for me here I'm afraid.
I know what Beethoven wrote but that doesn't tell us anything definite about the speed of each beat. As I said already, I'm prepared to accept this tempo if it sounds convincing - but its not just the tempo I've objected to here but the 'shallowness' of the playing. Now you also seem to be agreeing with me by saying that Schiff is only playing it like that for the purposes of the lecture - correct me if I'm wrong...
That being said, I differ from you and don't find his playing shallow at all. On the contrary, he obtains such a beautiful sound out of that piano! And I agree with his reading of the score...
though this song is more for the older age groups, being 13 (almost 14) i probably shouldn't like this, though i love old things...
that man interrupting the song ruins it though, i'd like to listen to it just for listening, while talking on imvu and playing world of warcraft... lol
LVB1770, first of all thanks for the advice (i have now listened to all Schiff's master classes and they are great!). Secondly, do you know if there are videos of those masterclasses (i would love to see Schiff's playing of the sonata's)? Thanks in advance.
What is he playing at 08:18?
EliasJordan3 4 months ago
@EliasJordan3 sorry if this has been answered already - its the funeral march from op.26 (third movement)
chrish12345 1 month ago
Brilliant lecture. Nice to see somebody clearing up the whole 'Moonlight' issue. Although,on a technical level, what he's says about the tempo is correct - as it's cut common time. However, tempo has got to be one of the most ambiguous things in music. When I tried playing the movement through at that tempo, it didn't feel right. So I'll always play it slower than this. If a composer marks a piece with "Adagio" - that can mean a lot of things - tempo is down to interpretation IMO.
losinggrip1993 7 months ago
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i wish this guy would fuck off, he never gets to the point and he forces his interpretation on me as if he was god.
Take your pigeon english and suck my dick
PizzatheHutt78 8 months ago
PizzatheHutt78, I don't really know why but I find your statement extremely
funny! Thanks for making me laugh my ass off!! To get a good laugh go to
Google images type in Baby Huey, then Andras Schiff & compare pictures!
LVB1770 8 months ago 6
@LVB1770 i just did that! it's hilarious! :D
cangjie12 7 months ago
btw, the "breakfast" part was hilarious.
daonap 9 months ago
Nice to see someone playing the opening of the 3rd movement so slowly. You can pick it apart easily.
daonap 9 months ago
Couldn't it be played on Beethoven's instrument he owned at the time to determine the use of the pedal - weakness and its sustaining effect. It would give a scale as most music at the time 1801 wasn't pedalled?
stockcar5472 11 months ago
I think I prefer this piece played at multiple tempos. Each part and verse and climb and decent in the song requires emphasist and can be very very persuasive if played right. I've yet to find someone who plays it right.
odiumimbues 11 months ago
btw, for those that liked this, Schiff did a lecture for each sonata. Just google search 'schiff guardian unlimited'.
It's fantastic and I would love to hear something else like it, for example a Chopin Preludes version or a Mozart Piano Sonatas version.. My god, the latter would be incredible.
whateveritsnoyes 1 year ago
A lot of pianists play the first movement at this tempo. Schiff isn't entirely unique in that sense, but it shocks people, I guess, to hear it in a faster tempo, and what I agree is the correct and accurate tempo. Not that I mind the 'conventional' one.
whateveritsnoyes 1 year ago
Expert view but I like the slow one, not that I know that it is right or not; but it sound so zen like, so ... may be not Beethoven but it is better to me. But I like different view. Only through difference we know alternatives and can choose. Do not dogma but if the tradition is ok, nothing wrong with being in the tradition as well. As one said author is dead.
Also, sometimes original may not be what you might like. Imagine that all Greek sculpture have color -- yes they do! b&w I like.
dng88 1 year ago
Expert view but I like the slow one, not that I know that it is right or not; but it sound so zen like, so ... may be not Beethoven but it is better to me. But I like different view. Only through difference we know alternatives and can choose. Do not dogma but if the tradition is ok, nothing wrong with being in the tradition as well. As one said author is dead.
dng88 1 year ago
"its good that I practice a little" LOL i love this guy
EricTheRed03 1 year ago
'Like a little flower between two huuge Abbesses!!' benedictine or franciscan? I love hungarian english.
karolfranzjosef 1 year ago
@karolfranzjosef I also love Maestro Schiff's sense of humor!
1donpizarro 1 year ago
@karolfranzjosef I love his sense of humor, truly.
1donpizarro 1 year ago
I have always played the first movement at the speed he plays it! I feel so validated now, knowing that a professional agrees with me. It is so much prettier - especially the left-hand melody - played at a faster tempo.
He plays it beautifully.
kimkwatson 1 year ago
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svdcq 1 year ago
which sonata was he talking about , the "revolutionary sonata: that people should play more often?"
just wonderign
bboymango 1 year ago
bboymango,
What?
LVB1770 1 year ago
The revolutionary sonata he refers to is the 'sister' sonata of the Moonlight, or Sonata No. 13 in E flat major, Op. 27, No. 1
thadmcarthur 1 year ago
@thadmcarthur Try listening to Tatjana Nicolajeva playing that.
metteholm75 11 months ago
@bboymango The 13th sonata (he did a lecture on that piece right before this one).
madlovba2 1 year ago
@madlovba2 thaanks
bboymango 1 year ago
@madlovba2 thanks man been wondering
bboymango 1 year ago
@bboymango
He was talking about the E flat major sonata opus 27/1, of course!
Palnatoke77 1 year ago
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CaesiusYT 1 year ago
@bboymango He is talking about the 13th Sonata Opus 27 no. 1
teresahermiz 1 year ago
@bboymango prob Piano Sonata 13 Op. 27 No 1, because he dubs this piece the sister work. This is one also titled Opus 27 but is given the number 2.
KingBabyBlu 1 year ago
@bboymango he was speaking of the Op. 27 No. 1 sonata in E flat major.
ataboodream 1 year ago
@bboymango Sonata op. 27 n. 1
Wienermitan 1 year ago
@bboymango
Since he mentioned it as a 'sister piece' to the Moonlight, he must be talking about the Piano Sonata No. 13 in E flat major, Op. 27, No. 1 'Quasi una fantasia'
thadmcarthur 1 year ago
the previous sonata he talked about in the lecture recital.
Opus 27 no 1.
Port5ello 1 year ago
@bboymango
Opus 27 no.1.
He was talking about that sonata before, in the lecture recital
Port5ello 1 year ago
@bboymango So far as I understand , M° Schiff puts on parallel the usual nickname of "Moonlight Sonata", which appears to have nothing to do with the spirit, the background of this work, and what it really sounds, a "Revolutionary Sonata ", which could be explained by the fact it begins with an Adagio sostenuto", instead of an "Allegro" (or any faster movement that usually starts a Sonata).
1donpizarro 11 months ago
@bboymango if its not too late. Op27 no 1. In e-flat. Great piece of work. (i am guessing because he said sister sonata.)
sriyash260 11 months ago
@bboymango He was just talking about the Moonlight Sonata? It was the revolutionary and the sonata that should be played more frequently.
SuhmMusic 10 months ago
@bboymango I think he was talking about the first sonata of the set, Op. 27 No. 1, as he refers to the moonlight as the "sister work". Personally I've always liked Op. 27 No. 1 ever since I first heard it, you should give it a listen.
EMPERORMIKI 3 months ago
thanks for the post, really an amazing class, thumbs up is a bit of an understatement
DopplegangerLv21 1 year ago
absolutely brilliant music! Love the "debrief" :P
the 3rd movement is total ignition O_o
insaneguitarfreak 1 year ago
Strange, everytime i have listened to this movement i always felt it fitting for a funeral. I was right!!
bsd300d 1 year ago
He plays the first movement far too fast! It's suppose to be sad! And you can practically get up and start dancing to his interpretation!
But overall i agree with his interpretation. He has a real keen insight into the music and the meaning isn't lost in his playing. I always appreciate his thoughts and playing of all music. But my greatest criticism for him is that he's faithful to the composer's score to a fault. And that too can overshadow the music at times...
brassmonkeyjew 1 year ago
@brassmonkeyjew , i am confused....what else can be more important than the composer's instructions and wishes ??? you can certainly add/supposed to add your own, but ONLY along the lines of his thoughts/intentions. i don't mean to sound schoolmasterly, but this kind of thinking causes EXACTLY the type of warped interpretations against which his whole masterclass is about !
cellotennis 1 year ago 2
Thank you, I enjoyed this lecture. But what´s the name of the piece he played at 8:15 ?
Saschatel 1 year ago
I have always liked it better the fast way (that is, if you don't think of actual moonlight). The faster you play the first movement, the more the actual lines will show up, and Schiff showed more than enough evidence that he is most probably the one being right about this.
Thanks a lot for uploading!
MarkHilkemeijer 1 year ago
Schiff sings 3:08 ! :)
iggykarpov 2 years ago
I like both his interpretaion of the first movement and the slower ones too (like Wilhelm Kempff). This sonata is flexible; there are infinite ways to play it "perfectly".
madlovba2 2 years ago 7
Fantastic lecture. I hope that more people will hear of this and finally drop the 'moonlight' label from what is intended to be a Funeral March!
VIDE0DR0ME 2 years ago 4
@VIDE0DR0ME I hope so too!
1donpizarro 9 months ago
Beethoven would never have given instructions to make the tones all mixed up. What a nonsense. On pianos of his time the ring tone was rather short. That is a decisive difference and the reason why other pianists said "you can't do it".
What sound Schiff produces here is just as brilliant as his Italian and English.
silverbud 2 years ago
It's not at all nonsense. The "ring tone" as you so naively put it was, indeed, somewhat shorter, but the Broadwoods (one of which Beethoven owned) built toward the end of his life had much more sustaining power and resonance. Beethoven DID give instructions to hold the pedal throughout this movement (not to make the tones all mixed up). Get hold of a GOOD edition and read what Beethoven writes at the beginning of the movement. I own a facsimile of the complete sonata. His words are there.
KennYWooD2 2 years ago
"ring tone?" by this, do you mean the "decay" of the sound? (how long it takes for the sound to dissipate.) I've never heard the term "ring tone." What does it mean?
petrina1022 2 years ago
I'm assuming he means length of decay/sustaining power. Clearly, he's a little short on terminology.
KennYWooD2 2 years ago
Master???lol
antoinezygfryd 2 years ago
Wonderful! I think I have learned a lot! Thank you for uploading this.
binoreal 2 years ago
"how wonderful the last movements of Beethoven are" (18:00) agreed!
revilo178 2 years ago 2
the way that schiff consistently sounds out of breath is very aggravating...
HMW 2 years ago
Sorry, I'm a convert. If B. says to hold the pedal down, then hold the pedal down. I can't do it myself, but I can follow his intention to make the piece far more murky than generally played. As for the tempo, I'm sold for a number of reasons. The half-time, the Don Giovanni reference, and the melodic flow of the quarter notes. But most importantly, even before ever hearing this analysis, I knew something was wrong. Winsome poetic musing is simply not Beethoven. The piece is newly born for me.
cuprik 2 years ago 3
I toally agree with you, cuprik - especially on your last statement ;-)
revilo178 2 years ago
Any tempo works for Moonlight Sonata. As long as you hit the right notes it's gonna be the fantastic
kutuluu 2 years ago
What's the name of the funeral march at 8:20?
I like hearing Schiff's interpretation of this well-known piece. It shows a different side of this piece I hadn't heard before. Many people may not agree with it, but oh well. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Gaarageeksrule 2 years ago
damn I need to know too lol
Stehnz 2 years ago
The funeral march is from Beethoven's Sonata Op.26, movement 3.
Mazarp 2 years ago
Why the hurry? Where is the 'delicacy'? Why is Schiff so OFF HIS ROCKER in this 'lecture'?
StephenChin1 2 years ago
Fascinating interpretation of this piece. Its really interesting to hear someone play this quicker than other pianists, but at least he has a valid argument as to why he plays the piece the way he does.
animalmother1065 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
more play, less speak.
dimaro816 2 years ago
whether you disagree with him or not I believe its very good to listen to all opinios and ofcourse all opinios of people who know what they are saying and andras schiff is one excelent pianist, for bach at least I consider him one of the best
alexilmagnifico 2 years ago
I agree with the tempo at the 4:50.. I find it very good but the other ways are eitrher tioo fast or too slow.. at least thats how I feel it and understand it... he sertenly has done his research and many others also so its just opinios...
alexilmagnifico 2 years ago
It can sound good at pretty much any tempo if played with the right hands, however his bad pedaling here is inexcusable especially for an artist of Schiff's stature.
BachScholar 2 years ago
If Schiff is so adamant about following Beethoven's cut-time indication, then why does he blatantly disregard other important indications, like Bach's common time in the Gigue from Partita 1? Bach did NOT indicate cut-time in this piece, yet all performers (including Schiff) play it as though it were in alla breve. Also, that Beethoven indicated pedal throughout the first movement does not necessarily imply to never change it. Schiff is a great pianist but not so good of a theorist.
BachScholar 2 years ago
i guess you are very good theorist ,is it.lols.
danielchong1234 2 years ago
BachScholar, do you think it's honestly fair to say that and claim that about him--such strong words. And in terms of this lecture, he is pointing out historical facts about the approach to this piece. Maybe you can ask him questions about his other choices in theory but to say he is not so good a theorist, is to imply you are better, strong words to direct at someone who can't defend themselves. And remember, everything you know, is in a sense, is subjective knowledge.
Lugorep10 2 years ago
Maybe I was a little too harsh. I respect Schiff and do like much of his playing, but I really take issue with his belief that the cut-time means a fast tempo. Also, I take issue with holding the pedal down throughout the whole movement. His historical info is nice and informative, but that is really not "theory", so I still say he isn't a good theorist.
BachScholar 2 years ago
BachScholar, I don't believe I would use the term "theorist" to describe Schiff's interpretive style as a pianist. He is basing his understanding of this Beethoven Sonata on authentic historical--if somewhat anecdotal--evidence drawn from Beethoven's sketches, conversa-tions, etc. Schiff makes no pretense to analyze harmonic/melodic structure etc. He merely illustrates his understanding as a performer of what he believes to be Beethoven's intentions as a composer, for good or ill.
petrina1022 2 years ago
I don't use the term "theorist" to imply analyzing harmonc/melodic elements, but rather as a more general term when one explains their interpretive approach. Schiff is "theorizing" or explaining why he plays it faster (which sounds bad) and uses big washes of pedal (which also sounds bad).
BachScholar 2 years ago
"sounds bad" is a very subjective term--better to admit that it is not to your taste rather than assume that a summary dismissal of Schiff's artistry will suffice for all listeners.
petrina1022 2 years ago 2
Most listeners here are biased without even knowing it, simply due to the fact that Schiff is famous. Imagine if an unknown person (like me) recorded this fast with the pedal down throughout. I guarantee it would be the laughing stock of YouTube and that everyone would agree that it sounds terrible. What then makes it all of a sudden great and "artistic" if done by someone who is world famous? Do you see how most listeners are just biased because they are afraid to disagree with Schiff?
BachScholar 2 years ago
Okay, enough with your generalizations about "most listeners" and other hypothetical conjections. I personally have listened to scores of different interpretations of the Beethoven sonatas and have my own ideas about who is best able to convey an intimate understanding of the composer's intentions. I am not particularly biased in favor of Schiff's work, but at least he backs up his thesis with strong evidence. Serious listeners will surely laugh off your opinionated assertions.
petrina1022 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
But I am right you have to admit. Because Schiff is famous, people are less apt to question his interpretation than if any anonymous Joe did the same thing. Schiff plays it too fast. Czerny marks it at about 54 bpm (which comes from Beethoven himself), which is closer to B's intentions than Schiff's 72 or faster. Not only is it too fast, the pedaling is incorrect. Schiff is very far from capturing B's intentions and I can't believe people are so gullible as to believe his theoretical hogwash.
BachScholar 2 years ago
BachScholar,
I agree with you. My video performing it is at 54bpm.
As for the pedaling on the pianos of Beethoven's days
that may have worked because of the lack of sustain
and maybe he marked it like that because of his bad hearing in 1801.
LVB1770 2 years ago
I like your tempo and your performance. I decided to do it a tad slower at about 48 bpm because I think it adds extra "feeling".
BachScholar 2 years ago
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petrina1022 2 years ago
I didn't know Schiff at all before finding this video. and I don't think I'am more ignorant than the average Youtube user when it comes to music.
revilo178 2 years ago
Czerny's metronome marking does not come from Beethoven. I agree that Schiff is a BIT too fast, but his pedalling is exactly as Beethoven asks for. It's right there in the score...you can't deny what's in black and white. In regard to your earlier statement...if YOU were to play this the same way I certainly would not laugh but call you a brave individual for having the courage to actually follow the score and not follow convention.
KennYWooD2 2 years ago
@BachScholar theoretical hogwash??? what happened to good old humility?you can certainly have your opinion, but how can you kill the statement of someone of his stature? there are countless reasons why he is where he is, like spending countless hours in libraries, reading documents, which are not accessible for us, mere mortals, in 6 languages, playing on and living with composers' instrument at their original locations, finding out acoustical laws and what they might have heard while composing
cellotennis 1 year ago
@BachScholar 2. and trying to transpose it into our world. next to brendel, he might be one of the few great, thinking and thought-provoking performer today. as you have probably also experienced it during your recording career for major labels, in today's halls and studios one needs to play faster tempi than in yesteryear's palaces with their over-resonant chambers to achieve similar effects. again, i'm not questioning your opinion, just the attitude.
cellotennis 1 year ago
@BachScholar 3. Having a DMA from Kansas State is a wonderful thing, but maybe he also put in the necessary hours, at the right places into his own education ? So, reading your comment and profile - was certainly like a breath of fresh air, in its undiluted, and most impressive amount of arrogance.
cellotennis 1 year ago
@cellotennis lol ;)
revilo178 1 year ago
@revilo178 thanks....this guy, "bachscholar" is unbelievable - i had to comment...
cellotennis 1 year ago
His understanding has nothing to do with evidence drawn from the sketchbooks, conversations, etc.-anecdotal or otherwise. The "historical" evidence he draws from is that found in the score of the sonata. As he states, we have the manuscript (I own a facsimile of the complete autograph) and all you need is there. The most complete "interpretation" one can present will always be one most closely in line with the composer's instruction. Everything you need is right in the score.
KennYWooD2 2 years ago
I agree that the primary source--in this case, the original manuscript--is the best source, but Beethoven's sketchbooks ARE primary sources because they contain his notes and schemas for many of his compositions. However, I disagree that there is such a thing as a "complete" interpretation. After all, we are talking about ART, not SCIENCE.
petrina1022 2 years ago
I didn't say that the sketchbooks WEREN'T good sources. They are good for seeing Beethoven's original ideas, but they are exactly what they're called-sketches and not really very helpful when it comes to direction for performance. I said that Schiff's understanding, here, has nothing to do with any evidence drawn from them, which is true. You'll notice that "interpretation" is in quotes, because if your performance is one aligned with the composers' intentions then it's not really interpretation
KennYWooD2 2 years ago
I doubt that one can make the case that Schiff restricts his understanding of Beethoven's intentions solely to notations in the score. That is not the holistic approach I'd expect from such a learned musician. Anyway, you cannot make that assertion without asking Schiff himself. As for your comment on interpreting a "composer's intentions," this becomes somewhat of a philosophical issue when one considers that art is experienced subjectively.
petrina1022 2 years ago
I can, in fact, make this assertion, in regard to the first movement. Schiff has not studied any sketches for the first movement, since there are none. Only 5 sketches for this sonata survive and they all relate to the third movement. As to interpretation, there's nothing philosophical about it. Interpretation is a term too often associated with artistic license. If we're to interpret what the COMPOSER says then it cannot be about what Kenny or petrina say.
KennYWooD2 2 years ago 2
cont. We should act as a medium for the composer in conveying his/her intentions,i.e. a mouthpiece. We decide through thorough scholarship that our performance allows the composer to speak. Of course any performance will have a personal fingerprint, but it shouldn't be one that takes away from, or adds to the score. It's not about us...we are merely a go-between.
KennYWooD2 2 years ago 3
Obviously.
petrina1022 2 years ago
Yes, obviously. The manuscript and the surviving sketches for the third movement are incredibly interesting to study. Should you ever have the opportunity to look them over I'm sure you'll thoroughly enjoy it. I've studied the majority of the piano sonata manuscripts and or/first editions (whichever is available) and it's an amazing experience to do so.
KennYWooD2 2 years ago 2
(cont'd)
While it's true that Beethoven was explicit in his directives for how to play his music, it still begs the question as to whether or not interpretation is merely an exercise in exactitude or ultimately a personal expression of how an artist derives and conveys MEANING from music.
petrina1022 2 years ago
ofc the performer ultimately expresses what they themselves see in a piece. nevertheless, it is important to try and reconstruct the composer's intention because (as Schiff says) he had a reason for that. as far as I am concerned, Beethoven is the maestro and not myself, he is the greater musician and what he thought of will always be better than whatever I think of.
revilo178 2 years ago 5
@revilo178 I think this is off base. Music if meant to be living, breathing, changeable. If I recall, correctly, Beethoven himself told a student something to the effect of, "That is not exactly how I would've read it, but even so, perhaps it is something better than myself." There are multiple ways to interpret a piece, often times, and even within the boundries of what's on the page. Composers, themselves might interpret their own work several ways--so which is "correct"?
throwscats 4 months ago
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revilo178 4 months ago
@revilo178 Furthermore, Beethoven is not necessarily better than you. I think it's actually valid to think that maybe your idea is better than Beethoven's. Overall, Beethoven is probably a superior composer to you, but that doesn't mean everything he thought is the will of God. Like everyone else, he's not perfect and you might think of something better than him.
Either way, it's almost irrelevent. He's dead, now, so at best we have educated guesses as to what he thought.
throwscats 4 months ago
@throwscats so are you saying that we should not bother to inquire what the composer intended or are you just correcting the exaggerations of my post?
revilo178 4 months ago
@BachScholar May I say that , if you listen to the syncopes baambabam (sorry, how else could I show it here :-)) don't you hear a funeral march here?! Compare to Chopin's funeral march. And why should a funeral march be so fast?!
tasteism 2 years ago
It's hard to agree with everything he says, especially the first movment. but yes indeed if there is no mixture of harmonies and disonace in certain places it becomes grandmother music. taking one pedal throughout is a abit too much imo... I liked what he had to say about the 2nd movment.... and 3rd, very nice. I never really knew to give a specific meaning to the crec-dim's of the second subject... thanks for adding this!
TheLamb2 2 years ago
I liked what he said about the first movment actually, i prefer it this way . and wen you listen to the Don giovanni Ah soccrosso son tradito u'll hear it out right away.
anyways i prefer death than romance
Mkamalid 2 years ago 8
@Mkamalid Ugh...romance is death!! My wife is a lucky woman.
bsd300d 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
11:30 - not in sonata form? I disagree. it has the requisite key changes and development. 3rd mvt is in sonata form too.
"with pedal" does not mean "always with pedal". Andras Schiff added words and thereby changed the meaning. The result is a disasterous, swampy effect.
CaseyRocky 2 years ago
The words Schiff refers to are indeed in the piece. And this aint in Sonata form: there is no development section, nor is there really a secondary key area as it functions in sonata structure...
johnnylifelive 2 years ago 3
Development begins in F# minor with the theme. Like Brahms sonata specimens, there's a Development and repeated Exposition effect for the price of one. Lengthy LH G# pedal sets up the Recapitulation. Theme II is the erlkonig sounding bar that begins with a flat 9 in the RH. Coda is the rescored "leave them humming" theme.
CaseyRocky 2 years ago
As to "without sordino", at 6:02 (begins at 5:22), there's an 1802 First Edition online. If anybody has the "manuscript" that Schiff refers to, please post. Even assuming Beethoven wrote it, I submit that a literal execution on a modern piano is a misinterpretation. I would prefer a modern "translation". 1/4 pedal doesn't work better than a full pedal. Having the dampers up a milliimetre would not result in a different sound than if they were up a centimetre or a metre.
CaseyRocky 2 years ago
You don't need to look at a first edition. As Schiff states, we have the manuscript. I own a facsimile of the complete autograph. Beethoven's words are there and they are what they are. 1/4 DOES work better than full. Try it. It's entirely possible. Any literal execution cannot be called misinterpretation, since you're no longer interpreting what the composer says, but actually following it verbatim, which should always be the case.
KennYWooD2 2 years ago
Is there any practical difference between 1/3 pedal and full pedal?
CaseyRocky 2 years ago 2
yea,duh
125themajjixmaaan 2 years ago
if there isn't, then you're doing something wrong
thiswastoogood 2 years ago 2
8:25, what's the name of that sonata??, can u please send as msg? in case u tube doesnt notify me by mail
Mkamalid 2 years ago
'cos you only need to hear. Use the button above - "Turn down the lights" and enjoy ;))
Thanks for the great video/audio/ :))
Ludwig123179 2 years ago
why is the image black? what happened?
abehayoun 3 years ago
its an audio speech lol, not captured on video
Mkamalid 2 years ago
Schiff's view that the adagio sostenuto is "not in sonata-form" in not entirely correct !!!
oachkram 3 years ago
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Concerning the tempo of the Adagio sostenuto, I think the passage following the mortal injury of the Commendatore in the opening scene of Mozart's Don Giovanni, as allegedly copied by Beethoven and thus perhaps formed the inspiration behind the music in question, ought to be an indisputable guide. I have seen this opera at the Mariinsky conducted by Valerie Gergiev and I have the video recording by Karajan.
oachkram 3 years ago
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They both played at approximately the same speed and I guess their choice of tempo is guided by both the character of the passage and by the natural flow of the words in the libretto as sung by the singers. Karajan does 56 crotchets per minute (if you count triplets as quavers, as in the Beethoven) !!!
oachkram 3 years ago
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I think although Andras Schiff has undoubtedly made great investigations and careful thinkings, he clearly misunderstands the essence of the funeral march and horribly contradicts his intentions. He fails to create the sense hollow atmosphere, the sense of deep sorrow and the shattering of hope and love.
oachkram 3 years ago
Gilels, who never pretends to be an intellectual, achieves the right effect though instinct and sensitivity, which, alas, seems to be completely resisted by Schiff who plays too fast: totally unforgivable and unacceptable.
oachkram 3 years ago
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oachkram 3 years ago
Shiff helps me to get better the little things like the nuances, tempo, etc.
Thanks for sharing !
foreverbrancusi 3 years ago 3
no i dont agree
Philippe620 3 years ago
Interesting how he says that this piece should be more played and more appreciated, when many pianists find Moonlight Sonata to be overplayed...
JacobRudduck 3 years ago
He is talking about the previous sonata.
Magaus 3 years ago 3
I have been cherishing the story of the beautiful blind pianist, who Beethoven heard from the cobble stone street. Beethoven climbed the stairs to her , where she was playing some simple notes she had composed. The moon was shining full. Beethoven was so struck by her, and by the music she shared, that he composed this piece the next day so that he might show her something of the beauty of the moonlight.
LiveAndInPerson 3 years ago
Actually, the sonata was never called "moonlight". The name was added later. Also, Beethoven composed this piece for his student the Countess Guilietta Guicciardi, whom he was in love with at the time. In the end, she married Count Gallenberg, who happened to be a lesser ballet composer.
Anyway, i've never heard that story before, but it sounds so sweet! Thanks.
avatarkiwi 3 years ago 2
His advice is so simple and direct. I've always had better luck playing the Beethoven sonatas which had a more classical technique or sound to them. The sonata quasi una fantasia and Appasionata were big disappointments because I couldn't really relate them to anything else. If I thought I played them well, I had to be missing something. It helps to be reminded Beethoven was a revolutionary. I really like Schiff's approach to Beethoven.
jdbrown371 3 years ago 6
can someone upload a video please the audio is very good thou....
cutiedude 3 years ago
He's just a brilliant guy.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
TechdivingIceland 3 years ago 2
is there a video version in existence?
amyparking 3 years ago
Sorry TintedReasoning, didn't mean to remove you comment.
Hmm. I love his interpretation but I simply can't agree with his rendition of it. His tempo is so stiff. I don't mind the relatively rapid tempo, but a bit of rubato playing seems to me to be the emancipating factor. Where it lacks movement
LVB1770 3 years ago
Wonderful! Thank you for posting this and the Guardian links.
amadeuswebern 3 years ago
But even if this is the way Beethoven played it, you dont have to play it this way... If I like it another way I would play it in that way, then i dont look at the things written on the sheet. Then I dont think of the public, what they should think of the interpretation. Thats why Shiff told that its not usual to tell your interpretation to others.
silazioz 3 years ago
silazioz, If you are not paying attention to what Beethoven wrote in the music you are not doing him justice. Not to say that everyone should play it the same way because that would make music cloned and boring but, you should pay attention to what Beethoven writes in the score or you are just pissing in the wind, LOL!
LVB1770 3 years ago
I really have to agree with his overall interpretation. I have heard the same comments from conductor Ben Zander. The only thing I'm not sure about the pedaling. Although it is marked to be held nearly the entire piece, the modern piano is far more resonant than the piano Beethoven would have been playing on. Overall, I agree with Schiff.
bfdpowers 3 years ago 3
bfdpowers, I agree.
LVB1770 3 years ago
Kemal Gekics interpretation of this Sonata is the very best ever
bubaschwabitsa 3 years ago
Thank you for posting! Andras is the best preformer of our day! He really makes the piano sing!
percivallll 3 years ago
I almost turned it off after I heard him play it at the beginning. But now I'm glad I didn't... very interesting, regardless of execution, good or bad...
HeifetzBeatsOistrakh 3 years ago
HeifetzBeatsOistrakh, I just got Schiff's live CD release of this and he plays it so straight forward with almost no rubato which is how I played it in my post but it's almost too stiff. I like Schnabel, Perahia, Van Cliburn and Horowitz. This piece need some freedom to me. I do not agree with his pedaling but he gives great insight!
LVB1770 3 years ago
he should stick to Bach.
englishplayer40 3 years ago
englishplayer40, LOL!
LVB1770 3 years ago
i really love how he plays the initial arpeggios in the 3rd movemment
felipefelipe 3 years ago
im sorry, the first movement of the moonlight shouldn't be that fast, is he just doing it like that for the sake of being different?... like that it has no atmospere at all.
chrish12345 3 years ago
chrish12345, Schiff has a point about alla breve cut time. I don't mind his tempo, he is close to Schnabel. I don't agree with the pedal through out and this is why. Beethoven's piano's lacked the sustain of the modern grand and also just maybe he marked the pedal like that because of his increasing deafness but I understand what Schiff is trying to achive here. His recording of this lack any rubato. It is unbelievably straight.
LVB1770 3 years ago
The player on the modern piano obviously has to adapt Beethoven's pedal markings intelligently. I don't care what he does as long as it sounds respectable - what he does here is just perfunctory, almost to the point of shallowness.
chrish12345 3 years ago
where i can find his recording of this sonata?
felipefelipe 3 years ago
This sonata is on his Volume IV installment of the Beethoven Sonatas. A very good recording. As to the first movement -- I agree with the tempo: Adagio Sostenuto. It's as if played in "2" and the right hand should be a circular pattern with "no exit," kind of close and sad. I'm not convinced by the "senza sordino" concept of playing the entire movement on one pedal vis a vis the modern concert grand. All in all, a wonderful performance tho, and this lecture is very interesting.
JEP177777 3 years ago
jean1938 3 years ago
If it is to be played at this speed, Schiff here doesn't do it very convincingly, in my opinion. In any case, even such a stickler for correctness such as Alfred Brendel says that the tempo should be left to the discression of the player. It should be a matter of taste, not something you read about in a book. You 'funeral march' argument would surely endorse a tempo of the upmost slowness?
chrish12345 3 years ago
Listen to Wilhelm Kempf, Andreas Schiff, Murray Perahia or Artur Rubinstein's interpretation. They are musicians who know what they do!!
Nobody would go to a museum and start to "repair" paintings by Degas, Monet or Picasso...
Why do people do that with music is beyond my understanding.
I think Schiff is right on here!! And it is based on facts! Here is a musician who can read a score!
Taste?? Yes, but here we are talking about Beethoven's taste, not yours!
jean1938 3 years ago 5
To start with, nobody knows for sure what speed Beethoven wanted, so its not a question of 'repairing' anything, in the sense of deliberatley altering something fixed in stone. I am perfectly prepared to listen to it played at this speed if it is done convincingly - not convincingly for ME alone, but convinvinging in the way that I feel the player is BEST ABLE to express the composer's intentions. Schiff just doesn't do it for me here I'm afraid.
chrish12345 3 years ago
Yes we do know what speed Beethoven wanted!
He wanted ADAGIO SOSTENUTO a 2/2
They are the composer's intentions!
i.e. 2 beats a bar of 4 triplets!
It means 6 notes each count!
That's slow: Adagio=around 66/76
He added: Sempre pp. Si deve suonare tutto questo pezzo délicatissimamente e senza sordino!
Those are Beethoven's intentions that HE wrote in HIS score.
Andras Schiff is here giving a lecture, so he doesn't play like he was in concert.
He is just explaining the Beethoven work.
jean1938 3 years ago 6
I know what Beethoven wrote but that doesn't tell us anything definite about the speed of each beat. As I said already, I'm prepared to accept this tempo if it sounds convincing - but its not just the tempo I've objected to here but the 'shallowness' of the playing. Now you also seem to be agreeing with me by saying that Schiff is only playing it like that for the purposes of the lecture - correct me if I'm wrong...
chrish12345 3 years ago
You are wrong...
I don't think Andras Schiff would analyse and teach how to play that masterpiece and play it differently in concert!!
What I meant is in order to appreciate the Art of Andras Schiff one should at least listen to one of his CD's or better, go to one of his recitals...
Here he gives a LECTURE analysing a Beethoven work.
>>>>>>>>part 2...
jean1938 3 years ago
That being said, I differ from you and don't find his playing shallow at all. On the contrary, he obtains such a beautiful sound out of that piano! And I agree with his reading of the score...
jean1938 3 years ago
actually 2/2 is NOT correct; 4/2 would be the implied feeling by the cut time... cut time groups 2 bars together to make one big 4/2 bar in essence.
HeifetzBeatsOistrakh 3 years ago
@ HeifetzBeatsOistrakh
Actually 2/2 IS CORRECT.
Alla breve: 4-4 time with 2 beats INSTEAD of 4 to A MEASURE, and in quicker tempo... (!)
Did you listen to the video??
End of story!
jean1938 3 years ago
jean1938, THANK YOU! You get it!
LVB1770 3 years ago
You are welcommed...
Thanks for what?? (!)
;)
jean1938 3 years ago
I think its the audio quality that is unconvincing not the playing.... isn't that obvious?!
LutenistDeMari 3 years ago
Very interesting lecture. Thanks for posting.
kasrahassani 3 years ago
truly amazing song!
though this song is more for the older age groups, being 13 (almost 14) i probably shouldn't like this, though i love old things...
that man interrupting the song ruins it though, i'd like to listen to it just for listening, while talking on imvu and playing world of warcraft... lol
trafficlights1 3 years ago
LVB1770, first of all thanks for the advice (i have now listened to all Schiff's master classes and they are great!). Secondly, do you know if there are videos of those masterclasses (i would love to see Schiff's playing of the sonata's)? Thanks in advance.
sicotange 4 years ago