You make a good presentation of the Reformed position. But let me point out a few things: God working on the heart of the dead sinner so that he can understand/accept the Gospel does not logically have to be the same thing as "regeneration." In fact it is not. Didn't Lazarus believe in Jesus before he died and was raised? Doesn't the Bible say that "God justifies the ungodly?" But faith must be present before justification. Therefore, the ungodly have faith before they are godly/regenerated.
/// Didn't Lazarus believe in Jesus before he died and was raised? ///
Sorry, but whats this gotta do with the video?
/// God working on the heart of the dead sinner so that he can understand/accept the Gospel does not logically have to be the same thing as "regeneration." ///
Says who? :-) That is exactly what regeneration IS... "God working on the heart of the dead sinner so that he can repent/believe."
@doctorh2005 In this video, you brought up Lazarus (see 4:34). And yet, Lazarus believed (had faith) before he died and was raised again. Your definition of regeneration is incomplete -- and that's my point -- regeneration is a "new life of the soul, by which it rises from the dead (John Calvin)." My point is that God works on the ungodly before he believes, but that is not regeneration. Regeneration happens once the man has faith.
/// you brought up Lazarus (see 4:34). And yet, Lazarus believed (had faith) before he died and was raised again.///
You completely missed the point!
I was using Lazarus as an ILLUSTRATION. I never said "He didnt believe before"
If you listened carefully I clearly said "Lazarus could not step out of the tomb or respond to the call of Christ until Christ effectually caused/enabled him to"
This is what Reformed Theology states - a man dead in sin cannot do anything.
@doctorh2005 The point of your video is that regeneration comes before faith. And yes, you used Lazarus to be an "ILLUSTRATION" of that. And yet, Lazarus had faith before he was raised from the dead -- thus proving the exact opposite of your point. Lazarus, in reality, is an illustration of baptism -- where we die to sin and are raised to new spiritual life (call it regeneration). But we mjust have faith before we are baptized: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
/// The point of your video is that regeneration comes before faith. You used Lazarus to be an "ILLUSTRATION". Yet, Lazarus had faith before he was raised from the dead -- thus proving the exact opposite of your point. ///
Again, you have completely missed the point!
Mentioning Lazarus was to illustrate the correlation between a "physically" DEAD person, who cannot do anything "physical" and a "spiritually" DEAD person who cannot do anything "spiritual". Comprende?
@doctorh2005 And Lazarus had faith BEFORE he died and was raised. So you have proved that faith comes before regeneration by using Lazarus as an illustration. Thank you for that. It makes my job so much easier.
/// And Lazarus had faith BEFORE he died and was raised. So you have proved that faith comes before regeneration by using Lazarus as an illustration. Thank you for that. It makes my job so much easier. ///
The raising of Lazarus is not "Regeneration".
Therefore your argument is false.
I clearly said "Just as a PHYSICALLY dead man cannot do anything unless he is alive to begin with, so also a SPIRITUALLY dead man cannot believe unless he is alive to begin with."
/// an illustration of baptism -- where we die to sin and are raised to new spiritual life (call it regeneration). ///
...but you cannot "die" to yourself (day by day obedience) unless you are SPIRITUALLY ALIVE to begin with - thats the whole point! Can a spiritually dead person "die" to himself? Absolutely not.
2nd... that is not regeneration. That is SANCTIFICATION - the day by day dying to ourselves and living for Christ.
@doctorh2005 I said we "die to sin." Rom 6:1-18: "How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? ...for he who has died is freed from sin." So baptism is like a death in that we die to sin. The old man is a slave to sin, the new man is freed. Lazarus is a good illustration of that. And he believed before he died.
@doctorh2005 IS the immortal soul of an unregenerated person alive or dead? Spiritually, we can refer to the soul as being dead, but metaphysically, the soul is alive. If it were not alive, it could not animate the body. But we know the body of an unregenerated man is alive. Now, with the help of God -- not necessarily the regeneration -- that alive body/soul unregenerated creature can believe. And THEN, he is given spirtual life as well.
@doctorh2005 OK,so an unregenerated man has a living soul and body. Metaphysically and biologically. So, why can't God help that living body/soul "old" creature? Are unregenerated men as evil as they can be? Of course not. Most unregenerated poeple don't kill little children and offer them as sacrifices to Satan. Why, then, are unregenerated people not as evil as they can be? Answer: God's grace. So, if God can give grace to reporbates, why can't He help them to believe?
/// OK,so an unregenerated man has a living soul and body. Metaphysically and biologically. So, why can't God help that living body/soul "old" creature? ///
Because man is not only composed of the Metaphysical/Biological... but also the SPIRITUAL.
And salvation concerned the SPIRITUAL.
/// Are unregenerated men as evil as they can be? ///
No - for one reason.... the COMMON GRACE of God RESTRAINING them from being as evil as they possibly could be.
@doctorh2005 So you admit that God does give non-saving grace -- call it "common" if you wish -- to unregenerated man. So, why are you so against the idea that He also gives the non-saving grace to unregenerated men that allows them to have faith, which faith then leads to their regeneration?
/// Answer: God's grace. So, if God can give grace to reporbates, why can't He help them to believe? ///
Because in Reformed teaching there's a distinction between God's "COMMON" grace and His "SALVIFIC" grace.
The former is experienced by all alike, whereas the latter is only experienced by His elect.
As to the question of "Why".... God, according to His good pleasure and to the eternal counsel of His will, simply decreed them NOT to believe and NOT to be saved.
@doctorh2005 Lazarus could not step out of the tomb before he was raised. We agree. But Lazarus believed before he was raised. I rest my case. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
/// He who believes and is baptized will be saved. [MARK 16:16] ///
(1) So the thief on the cross wasnt "saved"??? LOL.
(2) You can also read that verse as SPIRITUAL baptism - not water.... He that believes [and is spiritually baptised into Christ because of belief] will be saved......
In fact, that would work quite well with the OPPOSITE of the scale in verse 16... "He that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned"
It mentions nothing of those who are not physically baptised
/// Lazarus is a good illustration of that. And he believed before he died. ///
You are confusing the "spiritual" with the "physical". Only Satan would do such deception.
Lazarus can only be used to illustrate that a physically dead man cannot do anything unless he is alive to begin with.
And likewise, a SPIRITUALLY dead person (someone who is unregenerated) cannot believe - for "to believe" requires that you be "spiritually alive" to begin with.
/// where we die to sin and are raised to new spiritual life ///
That is a deceptive fallacy called "Equivocation" - "die to sin" is not the same as "dying WITH CHRIST". True Christians are not deceptive as to make a statement like you did.
"Dying to sin" (the day by day process of Sanctifiation) comes AFTER conversion - not BEFORE it - for a spiritually dead person cannot do anything.
"Dying WITH CHRIST" is what happens UPON CONVERSION - upon faith and repentance.
@doctorh2005 Rom 6 starts out in vs. 2 by saying "...we who died to sin..." Immediately after in vs. 3 it says "...all of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death." So "dieing to sin" is what happens in baptism. So, dieing to sin happens UPON conversion/regeneration. And of course it continues afterwards. But like Lazarus, who believed before he died, we too believe before we "die to sin" and are raised to "newness of life."
/// Rom 6 starts out in vs. 2 saying "...we who died to sin..." Immediately after in vs. 3 it says "...all of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death ///
Again, Paul is referring in that passage NOT to "water baptism", as you assume, but rather to SPIRITUAL baptism - aka, the moment we believed in Christ, we were "baptised" as it were into Him.
/// So "dieing to sin" is what happens in this baptism. ///
@doctorh2005 And does the raising of Lazarus refer to/ symbolize Spirtual baptism where one is resurected to spirtual life? Yes. And as you just said, in that spiritual baptism / regeneration, we "die to sin." That is illustrated by Lazarus's death. And before that, Lazarus believed.
/// does the raising of Lazarus symbolize Spirtual baptism where one is resurected to spirtual life? ///
No it does not refer to spiritual "baptism". That is taking the illustration too far.
Whether Lazarus believed before is totally irrelevant.
What we CAN say is that "just as a person cannot perform PHYSICAL acts unless he is PHYSICALLY alive,,,, so also a person cannot perform SPIRITUAL acts (aka, faith) unless he is SPIRITUALLY alive.
@doctorh2005 You say Lazarus's faith before he was raised is irrelevant. Isn't that just insular self-service? Of course it is relevant! It's the whole point. Can't the "world" (aka non-Christians) believe that Jesus came from the Father? "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me (Jn 17:21)." Yes. How can this be according to your theology? Isn't it a good thing for folks to believe that Jesus came from the Father?
/// Can't the "world" (aka non-Christians) believe that Jesus came from the Father? "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me (Jn 17:21)." ///
That simply proves that Jesus's miracles "AUTHENTICATED" Him as a messenger from God - as also did the miracles of the Apostles AUTHENTICATE them as messengers of God.
But merely seeing Jesus as "sent from the Father" isnt equal to salvation. SATAN knows that He is sent from God.
@doctorh2005 But believing that Jesus came from the Father is a good thing. And thus, it proves that God gives the whole world grace to believe good things. Even though the majority of them are not and never will be regenerated. As Jesus invites all to believe in Him, so I invite you to investigate the Catholic Church and join her. You will be in good company: Augustine, Jerome, Francis Beckwith (Google him), etc.
/// you just said, in that spiritual baptism / regeneration, we "die to sin." ///
No - I did not say that. You are twisting my words.
Regeneration is not the same as "spiritual baptism into Christ".
Spiritual baptism in Christ happens WHEN WE BELIEVE - and FAITH is a FRUIT of regeneration.
However, an unregenerate person does not believe into Christ until he is first regenerated - for a spiritually dead man cannot perform spiritual acts (e.g. faith).
@doctorh2005 So a person who has just been regenerated -- resurrected to spirtual life -- is not "in Christ?" Of course he is. And so spiritual baptism happens at the same time as regeneration. "Baptism now saves you... 1 Pt 3:21." If spiritual baptism happens after regeneration, then you would have the New Creature just made and yet not "in Christ." So, your theology has the New Creature not in Christ and not godly.
/// So a person who has just been regenerated -- resurrected to spirtual life -- is not "in Christ?" ///
You don't understand.
The very product of Regeneration IS faith and repentance.
God issues forth His effectual call through the preacher... and Regeneration, through God's irresistable grace, ENSURES that call is answered. Christians don't CHOOSE to believe, God CAUSES them to.
When a person is Regenerated to faith, he is then "IN CHRIST".
Sacerdotalism (which is classic of Catholicism) is ERROR - the teaching that Water Baptism in and of itself has power to save.
When Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain EXACTLY what he means by it. He says that baptism saves you "NOT AS A REMOVAL OF DIRT FROM TH BODY" (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body)....
... "BUT AS AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE" (that is, as an INWARD SPIRITUAL transaction between God and the individual, a transaction SYMBOLISED BY THE "OUTWARD" ceremony of baptism).
We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you - not the OUTWARD physical ceremony of baptism, but the INWARD spiritual reality which baptism represents".....
Peter's phrase, "AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE" is another way of saying "a request for forgiveness of sins and a new heart."
When God gives a sinner a "clear conscience", that person has the assurance that every sin has been forgiven and that he or she stands in a right relationship with God (Heb.9:14 adn 10:22).
However, you cannot make that statement unless you are "previously" REGENERATED!
@doctorh2005 You know you explanation is lacking. Peter says "Baptism BEING OF THE LIKE FORM now saves you also..." Like form of what? Answer the waterhe was just talking about regarding Noah, where he says Noah was saved by the water. The water saved him because it washed the eveil men (representing sin) away from him and it floated him up to the mountain (represents the Kingdom).
/// Peter says "Baptism BEING OF THE LIKE FORM now saves you also..." ///
That passage says that Baptism is SYMBOLIC or REPRESENTATIVE (hence "the LIKE FIGURE" in the KJV) of the real baptism that happened the moment we believe.
What I told you stands.
There is nothing "holy" about the ceremony. The ceremony is merely an OUTWARD WITNESS to what has happened to us inside.
/// Peter says "Baptism BEING OF THE LIKE FORM now saves you also..." ///
Again, if you read the WHOLE verse, it clearly states "NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh" - aka, not the outward ceremony with water - "but as AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A GOOD CONSCIENCE"
The latter is what "saves" - the "repentant" attitude - which is also accompanied hand in hand with FAITH. The ceremony is SUBSEQUENT
And as the Reformers say "A spiritually DEAD man cannot believe"
Peter's phrase, "AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE" is another way of saying "a request for forgiveness of sins and a new heart."
When God gives a sinner a "clear conscience", that person has the assurance that every sin has been forgiven and that he or she stands in a right relationship with God (Heb.9:14 adn 10:22).
However, you cannot make that statement unless you are "previously" REGENERATED!
@doctorh2005 John 20:31, "But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name." You see? Belief comes first , that, believing, you may have life. Faith comes before regeneration.
/// John 20:31, "But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name." ///
That verse doesnt prove regeneration after faith. For a spiritually dead person cannot believe. A man is "regenerated TO faith".
Also, a man cannot "heed" the things of God unless God previously "opens his heart".
Did God open Lydia's heart BEFORE or AFTER she heeded the things spoken to her by Paul????
@doctorh2005 But you are stuck with the obvious conclusion: If we are not "in" Christ untilwe are spiritually baptized, then the New Creature who was just created by regeneration is NOT in Christ. How sad that you believe that. I have good news for you: The New Creature IS inChrist and is godly. God does not create junk.
/// But you are stuck with the obvious conclusion: If we are not "in" Christ untilwe are spiritually baptized, then the New Creature who was just created by regeneration is NOT in Christ ///
Again, the aim of Regeneration is faith and repentance.
A person is "regenerated TO" faith and repentance.
Therefore, a man who (in your words) was "just regenerated" is ALREADY SAVED and ALREADY "in Christ. For a man who is regenerated is a man with "faith and repentance".
(1) The new creature - the product of regeneration, is certainly in Christ, for he was regenerated to faith and repentance.
(2) The only reason he walks in godliness is because the Spirit is working in him "both to will and to do", but however, he is still a sinner/ungodly man BY NATURE. He still has the sinful nature. He is not perfect. Hence the war between the flesh and the Spirit (GALATIANS 5:17)
/// So, dieing to sin happens UPON conversion/regeneration ///
No. Dying to sin is what happens upon CONVERSION (aka, repentance/faith) - not "Regeneration" - for Regeneration (which is BEFORE conversion) is the "replacing of the old unbelieving heart with a believing heart" and the spiritual resurrection of a person SO THAT HE CAN THEN believe.
Therefore Regeneration PREceeds faith.
Amyraldianism (which teaches faith before regeneration) is FALSE. :-)
/// "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." ///
That is referring to PHYSICAL (water) baptism - not SPIRITUAL baptism, which happens the moment we have faith in Christ.
Again, you are commiting the deceptive fallacy of "Equivocation".
The Bible distinguishes between PHYSICAL baptism and SPIRITUAL baptism - the former being SUBSEQUENT to the latter - for physical baptism is a step of obedience to Christ - and a spiritually dead person CANNOT obey Christ.
@doctorh2005 So you are saying that we are spiritually baptized BEFORE we are physically baptized. And, that Mark 16:16 refers to physical baptism. OK, then Mark 16:16 says we WILL BE SAVED (future tense) as a result of believing and being baptized. What you need it to say is "He who believes and is baptized is already saved."
//// So you are saying that we are spiritually baptized BEFORE we are physically baptized. ///
Absolutely!
Water baptism is merely the OUTWARD symbol of what has already happened WITHIN.
/// Mark 16:16 says we WILL BE SAVED (future tense) as a result of believing and being baptized. ///
Yes. The moment a person "believes" (aka, saving faith), he is "spiritually" baptised into Christ's death. And water baptism is a subsequent OUTWARD symbol.
/// OK, then Mark 16:16 says we WILL BE SAVED (future tense) as a result of believing and being baptized. ///
As a "result"??? Are you now a Roman Catholic? Lol
Mark 16:16 can also read "will CERTAINLY be saved" - for to "believe" is to apply the righteousness of Christ, and to be "baptised" is to "outwardly" portray what has happened on the inside as a show of OBEDIENCE to Christ - showing that our "faith" is not a dead faith, but a LIVING faith (see James 2)
@doctorh2005 Answer: BEFORE. But that is my whole point. That does not refer to regeneration. God can prepare a man and enable a man to believe without regenerating him. Doesn't the farmer prepare the field (plowing) before he plants the seed? Yes. But is there new life yet? No. AFTER the seed is plantedin the prepared field, the seed springs to new life. Having the seed (gospel) planted is the preaching and hearing (faith). The sprout is new life (regeneration).
/// That does not refer to regeneration. God can prepare a man and enable a man to believe without regenerating him. ///
You are a Catholic, and that is the reason you reject the Reformed teaching on Regeneration.
According to Reformed teaching, is DOES refer to Regeneration.
The Reformed order has always been.... Election, Effectual Calling and Regeneration, Faith and Repentance (or "conversion"), Justification, Sanctification and Glorification
@doctorh2005 I know that Reformed Theology says that when God enables a man to believe that that is the moment of regeneration. But I also know that Reformed Theology defines regeneration as "resurrection to spiritual life." What I am trying to prove to you is that the enabling of man to believe is not regeneration, but is simply enabling. Regeneration comes after that due to a man's faith. "He who believes... will be saved."
/// Having the seed (gospel) planted is the preaching and hearing (faith). The sprout is new life (regeneration)///
Preaching is the seed SOWED, but no man can "hear" until he is effectually regenerated and GIVEN EARS TO HEAR to begin with. Otherwise it falls on spiritually deaf ears.
The actual act of "giving" of ears to hear referrs in Reformed teaching to "Regeneration".
The seed cannot sprout until its made to come alive to begin with.
@doctorh2005 The sprouting of the seed is the moment of new life, not the planting of the seed. The planting is the preaching and hearing of the lifeless (unregenerated) soil. "Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you (1 Pt 1:23)." We are born again (regenerated) "by" the word of God -- not "before" the word of God. The new life is "by" the preaching/hearing.
@doctorh2005 Sorry, but the terms "believe" and "is baptized" are aorist participles -- in Greek, a participle modifies a verb by answering questions. In this case the verb is "will be saved" and the question is "how?" That is Greek grammar. How will one be saved? By being baptized and believing. That is what, grammatically, the sentence means in English. We will be saved by believing and being baptized. The problem for you is that believing is included. Faith comes BEFORE.
/// We are saved by believing and being baptized. The problem for you is that believing is included. Faith comes BEFORE. ///
You are once again deceitfully mixing up "spiritual" baptism (which occurs the same moment we believe) with "water" baptism - which is something we do AFTER we believe.
To "believe", means you must be spiritually alive TO BEGIN WITH - and the "resurrecting to spiritual life" in Reformed Theology is called "Regeneration".
@doctorh2005 Mark 16 says we must believe first in order to be saved. "He who believes... will be saved." Are you saying one is regenerated before faith and therefore before being saved? Since being saved RESULTS from faith and baptism as Mark 16 teaches.
/// Are you saying one is regenerated before faith and therefore before being saved? Since being saved RESULTS from faith and baptism as Mark 16 teaches. ///
That is why we Reformed say "Regenerated to salvation". Have you never heard of that?
Regeneration is simply one of the "first steps" the Holy Spirit does in the "Application of Salvation".
I suggest you order "Redemption Accomplished and Applied" by JOHN MURRAY.
@doctorh2005 Now you are saying that regeneration is merely a "first step." Sorry, but regeneration is resurrection to spiritual life and thus, is rightly called by another name: "salvation." But Mark says we are saved by believing and being baptized. Thus faith comes before salvation /regeneration.
/// Now you are saying that regeneration is merely a "first step." Sorry, but regeneration is resurrection to spiritual life and thus, is rightly called by another name: "salvation." ///
I agree that Regeneration is "Resurrection TO spiritual life". Thats why I said a person is "Regenerated TO faith" - aka, "THE PROCESS BY WHICH" God causes a person to believe is called "Regeneration"
Regeneration is one of the first steps in the APPLICATION OF REDEMPTION by God
/// Mark says we are saved by believing and being baptized.
The ending of the gospel of Mark is disputed by many. There are many reliable earlier sources that DO NOT CONTAIN the ending of Mark. Therefore you cannot form any doctrine apon that verse.
/// Thus faith comes before salvation /regeneration. ///
You are very deceitful man.
Saying that Regeneration and Salvation are the same is a fallacy of TOPIC. They are not. Regeneration is but one of the FIRST "STEPS" in the "APPLICATION of" salvation/redemption.
A person is regenerated "TO" salvation (faith and justification).
Mark 16:16 is not proof that faith comes before Regeneration. For a spiritually dead man CANNOT believe in the first place.
@doctorh2005 My point is that faith comes before justification. And godliness comes after justification. Therefore, faith comes before godliness. Now, ask yourself, can someone who was just regenerated NOT be thusly godly? Is there even one second that elapses where the person is regenerated but not godly? The only conclusion must be that justification and regeneration happens at the same time. And faith precedes them both.
/// And godliness comes after justification. Therefore, faith comes before godliness. ///
You are confusing Regneration with SANCTIFICATION - the two are not the same.
Regeneration comes BEFORE faith - it is in fact the enabling of the person to believe.
Sanctification comes AFTERWARDS.
If you believe a dead man can believe of his own accord, you are in error - that is the teaching of Amyraldianism and is mere Arminianism/Remonstrantism in disguise.
/// Now, ask yourself, can someone who was just regenerated NOT be thusly godly? ///
You are an Amyraldian. Amyraldianism is heretical and is not Reformed Theology.
Regeneration is merely the process of enabling a person to believe - it does not make a person "godly".
The proof for this is that a DEAD man (dead in trespasses and sins) CANNOT believe. Reformed Theology has long taught that he has to be REGENERATED beforehand so that he CAN (and will) believe.
/// Is there even one second that elapses where the person is regenerated but not godly? ///
Irrelevant.
/// The only conclusion must be that justification and regeneration happens at the same time. And faith precedes them both. ///
Nope. A spiritually dead person CANNOT perform any spiritual acts whatsoever - aka, he cannot "believe" savingly. He has to be "brought to life" first - just as Lazarus was brought to life BEFORE he could step out of the tomb.
/// faith must be present before justification. Therefore, the ungodly have faith before they are godly/regenerated ///
(1)
Faith is certainly present before justification in the "actual" sense, but to have faith we must be regenerated first - thats why God "opened the heart of Lydia so that she could HEED the Gospel" (Acts 16:14)... There is no saving faith unless we HEED the truth of the Gospel to begin with.
@doctorh2005 If you are defining "regeneration" simply to mean the preparation of the sinner to be able to accept and understand the gospel, I would agree that that kind of regeneration precedes faith. But that is not what "regeneration" means. The actual definition is "resurrection to spiritual life" Now THAT come after faith. Since God justifies the "ungodly" The ungodly have NOT been resurrected to spitutal life.
@doctorh2005 OK, so now you admit that regeneration is not "merely ...the changing of an unbelieving/unrepentant heart for a believing/repentant heart." Regeneration also includes resurrection to spiritual life. Now that you have completely defined what you mean by "regeneration," let's proceed: When someone is regenerated, is that person thusly godly? Why? Why not? In other words, is the regenerated person godly or ungodly or could be either?
/// When someone is regenerated, is that person thusly godly? ///
Before I answer, just to clarify... someone who is regenerat"ED" (past tense) is someone who is currently now believing in Christ - for regeneration preceeds faith.
Therefore I can ask you.....
Are you referring to "outward physical acts" of godliness (aka, the process of SANCTIFICATION) or are you referring to the "state" of godliness as God sees us IN CHRIST? (JUSTIFICATION)?
@doctorh2005 Immediately before regeneration are you godly or ungodly? Immediately after regeneration, are you godly or ungodly? I think that is the best way of approaching this. By godly I am referring to a state you are in or an attribute that you have. Someone who is godly is prone towards, desires and is capable of godliness/piety.
/// Immediately before regeneration are you godly or ungodly? ///
Both ungodly "by nature", and ungodly "in regard to the righteous standing before God".
The moment we are regenerated to faith in Christ, even though we are still ungodly by nature, we are "seen as" godly/perfect/sinless/righteous only because we are seen "in Christ".
/// Immediately after regeneration, are you godly or ungodly? ///
@doctorh2005 You wrote, "The moment we are regenerated to faith in Christ, even though we are still ungodly by nature." I notice you are trying to get faith in there by saying "regenerated to faith." No. You yourself said that a person must FIRST be regenerated IN ORDER to have faith. Even so, you are now on record as saying that immediately after regeneration, we are still "ungodly by nature." Therefore, the new creature that GOD MADE is ungodly. God makes ungodliness? Really?
/// You said that a person must FIRST be regenerated IN ORDER to have faith ///
Yes a person must be "raised to life spiritually" in order to believe. Reformed Theology has ALWAYS taught that this "raising spiritually" is called "Regeneration".
You can deny that if you wish, but you cannot deny that its the teaching of Reformed Theology.
/// you are now on record as saying that immediately after regeneration, we are still "ungodly by nature." ///
/// so the new creature that GOD MADE is ungodly. God makes ungodliness?///
The New Creature is not PERFECT (as you assume) but is rather composed of BOTH "flesh AND Spirit". The Scriptures speak many times of the "war" between the sinful flesh and the Spirit (who is within us). We still have our old sinful nature - which is why Christians still sin.
The difference between the Old and the New, is that the New now has desires to obey God - wheres as before we cudnt.
@doctorh2005 The New Creature is "born of Spirit." And "that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit (Jn 3:6)." Certainly, then, the New Creature is godly. Otherwise, you have God creating an ungodly New Creature. That just does not make sense and it belittles God's power and besmirches His own goodness. The New Creature, being born of the Spirit, and being spirit, is godly. Or, is that which is born of God the Holy Spirit ungodly?
God simply "puts His Spirit within us" and causes us to not only believe but to also desire godliness and to hate our sinfulness. That is whats called "the new creation".
God doesnt give us a perfect/godly "nature". What charlatan told you that? The Pope?? LOL.
@doctorh2005 That which is born of spirit is spirit. God created the New Creature. Everything God creates is good. The New Creature that results from regeneration can have faith -- has the ability ot believe the gospel. Isn't that godly? Isn't that good?
/// God created the New Creature.. Everything God creates is good. ///
Christian's are not "good" by nature, but are still sinful and depraved and wretched. The only good that we do comes directly from the Holy Spirit and not from ourselves.
/// The New Creature...can have faith -- has the ability ot believe the gospel. ///
There is no "can" or "able".... but, rather, the new creature "DOES" believe. Big difference. Catholicism is false.
@doctorh2005 And so the new creature that GOD MADE is not capable nor even has the ability to do good? Really? God makes junk? God is so weak He fails to make a new creature who is good and can do good? Of course it si with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, but assistance or not, it is the new crature who is doing the good. having faith is good. Does the Holy Spirit have faith for the new creature? No. It is the man who believes -- and that is good.
@doctorh2005 Yes! We agree. Man cannot do anything good without God's assistance. But the man -- with God's assitance -- does good. Take prayer for example. St. Paul says that prayer is "pleasing" to God. Does God pray to Himself? No. It is the man who prays -- with God's assistance. The New Creature is different than the old isn't it? And the New Creature can do good. Otherwise, why call it a "new" creature if it has no more ability than the old creature to do good?
/// God is so weak He fails to make a new creature who is good and can do good? ///
Straw Man - the issue is not what God CAN do, but what God has PURPOSED TO DO.
/// it is the new crature who is doing the good ///
No its not - GOD performs works of righteousness THROUGH US. We cannot attribute anything of that to ourselves. That is a very self-righteous statement u made. Typical of Catholics.
@doctorh2005 The New Creature can do good. Of course it is with God's assitance. But it can do good, and thus is godly. A car can go fast, can't it? Now, it needs the assistance of the gasoline to go fast, but we do not therefore say that the car can't go fast -- just because it needs the assistance of gasoline. Are you godly right now? Yes or no.
Nope. The new creature DOES do good. We "cannot" in and of ourselves. The only reaso a Christian DOES good or has DESIRES to do good is because those desires are wrought in him by the Holy Spirit. There is no "can". Catholicism is false.
/// it is with God's assitance. ///
Nope. Not even "assisance" I'm afraid. Its all GOD'S "DOING" through us - not "assisting". We are merely the clay in the hands of the Potter.
Nope. We "cannot" do good, and therefore we are not "godly" by nature. There is no "can". The only reason we "DO" goodworks is because God is working in us "TO WILL AND TO DO" His good pleasure.
/// A car can go fast, can't it? Now, it needs the assistance of the gasoline to go fast, but we do not therefore say that the car can't go fast ///
You forget... a car needs a DRIVER - the gasoline itself doesnt make the car move, but the DRIVER does. And in Christians, only GOD is the driver. HE is the one driving the car and holding the wheel - not us.
If WE were driving or holding the wheel, we'd be in dire straights.
Not by "nature", as you say - and neither are you.
Christian's are not "good" by nature.
The only reason I may "DO" good to the glory of God, is because the Holy Spirit is "working in me BOTH to will and to DO" His good pleasure.
If He lets go of the wheel, Christians fall into sin... But if He holds the wheel and directs it, Christians obey God and walk the straight path. Catholicism is false.
/// Let your answer, then be on your gravestone when you die someday: "Here lies doctorh2005. A Calvinist, and an ungodly man." ///
Haha. Yes I agree :-) It would definitely create controversy for a good discussion on sin and our natural "wretchedness" - hopefully leading into the Gospel. Great idea! I would add "and a SINNER"
Afterall, the Lord Jesus confirmed that we are all, by nature, "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" [REV.3:17]
@doctorh2005 The thief on the cross did not go to Heaven when he died - he went with Jesus to the earthly paradise of Abraham's bosom -- which wasn't Heaven. No-one went to Heaven before Christ ascended to Heaven 40 days after the resurrection. He was the first born of many brethren. He opened the gates of Heaven which had been closed until then.
/// The thief on the cross did not go to Heaven when he died - he went with Jesus to the earthly paradise of Abraham's bosom -- which wasn't Heaven. ///
There is no place distinct from Heaven called "Paradise".
God's people go STRAIGHT to Him (OT and NT).
Paradise is another name for Heaven.
/// No-one went to Heaven before Christ ascended to Heaven 40 days after the resurrection. ///
RUBBISH.
Only a dispensationalist believes that - but Scripture doesnt agree.
/// The thief on the cross did not go to Heaven when he died - he went with Jesus to the earthly paradise of Abraham's bosom -- which wasn't Heaven. ///
There is no place distinct from Heaven called "Paradise".
God's people go STRAIGHT to Him (OT and NT).
Paradise is another name for Heaven.
/// No-one went to Heaven before Christ ascended to Heaven 40 days after the resurrection. ///
RUBBISH.
Only a dispensationalist believes that - but Scripture doesnt agree.
@doctorh2005 Again, you are using "regeneration" to mean "merely ...the changing of an unbelieving/unrepentant heart for a believing/repentant heart." OK. But please note that that is not the definition used by Calvin/Sproul/James White, et al...
wow i liked this alot god called me to missionary work but i am constantly finding that i cannot live up to the standard and is salvation in fact not assured even to gods chosen people for such things as this?
You make a good presentation of the Reformed position. But let me point out a few things: God working on the heart of the dead sinner so that he can understand/accept the Gospel does not logically have to be the same thing as "regeneration." In fact it is not. Didn't Lazarus believe in Jesus before he died and was raised? Doesn't the Bible say that "God justifies the ungodly?" But faith must be present before justification. Therefore, the ungodly have faith before they are godly/regenerated.
deliveringit 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Didn't Lazarus believe in Jesus before he died and was raised? ///
Sorry, but whats this gotta do with the video?
/// God working on the heart of the dead sinner so that he can understand/accept the Gospel does not logically have to be the same thing as "regeneration." ///
Says who? :-) That is exactly what regeneration IS... "God working on the heart of the dead sinner so that he can repent/believe."
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 In this video, you brought up Lazarus (see 4:34). And yet, Lazarus believed (had faith) before he died and was raised again. Your definition of regeneration is incomplete -- and that's my point -- regeneration is a "new life of the soul, by which it rises from the dead (John Calvin)." My point is that God works on the ungodly before he believes, but that is not regeneration. Regeneration happens once the man has faith.
deliveringit 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// you brought up Lazarus (see 4:34). And yet, Lazarus believed (had faith) before he died and was raised again.///
You completely missed the point!
I was using Lazarus as an ILLUSTRATION. I never said "He didnt believe before"
If you listened carefully I clearly said "Lazarus could not step out of the tomb or respond to the call of Christ until Christ effectually caused/enabled him to"
This is what Reformed Theology states - a man dead in sin cannot do anything.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 The point of your video is that regeneration comes before faith. And yes, you used Lazarus to be an "ILLUSTRATION" of that. And yet, Lazarus had faith before he was raised from the dead -- thus proving the exact opposite of your point. Lazarus, in reality, is an illustration of baptism -- where we die to sin and are raised to new spiritual life (call it regeneration). But we mjust have faith before we are baptized: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// The point of your video is that regeneration comes before faith. You used Lazarus to be an "ILLUSTRATION". Yet, Lazarus had faith before he was raised from the dead -- thus proving the exact opposite of your point. ///
Again, you have completely missed the point!
Mentioning Lazarus was to illustrate the correlation between a "physically" DEAD person, who cannot do anything "physical" and a "spiritually" DEAD person who cannot do anything "spiritual". Comprende?
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 And Lazarus had faith BEFORE he died and was raised. So you have proved that faith comes before regeneration by using Lazarus as an illustration. Thank you for that. It makes my job so much easier.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// And Lazarus had faith BEFORE he died and was raised. So you have proved that faith comes before regeneration by using Lazarus as an illustration. Thank you for that. It makes my job so much easier. ///
The raising of Lazarus is not "Regeneration".
Therefore your argument is false.
I clearly said "Just as a PHYSICALLY dead man cannot do anything unless he is alive to begin with, so also a SPIRITUALLY dead man cannot believe unless he is alive to begin with."
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// an illustration of baptism -- where we die to sin and are raised to new spiritual life (call it regeneration). ///
...but you cannot "die" to yourself (day by day obedience) unless you are SPIRITUALLY ALIVE to begin with - thats the whole point! Can a spiritually dead person "die" to himself? Absolutely not.
2nd... that is not regeneration. That is SANCTIFICATION - the day by day dying to ourselves and living for Christ.
That is SANCTIFICATOIN, not regeneration.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 I said we "die to sin." Rom 6:1-18: "How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? ...for he who has died is freed from sin." So baptism is like a death in that we die to sin. The old man is a slave to sin, the new man is freed. Lazarus is a good illustration of that. And he believed before he died.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? ///
Paul is referring to SPIRITUAL baptism there, not PHYSICAL baptism - for there is nothing special about "water" baptism in and of itself.
/// ...for he who has died is freed from sin. ///
Yes, and the moment we "died" is referring to the moment when we "believed" unto salvation.
And we do not "believe" unless we are first "Regenerated". For an unregenerate man CANNOT.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 IS the immortal soul of an unregenerated person alive or dead? Spiritually, we can refer to the soul as being dead, but metaphysically, the soul is alive. If it were not alive, it could not animate the body. But we know the body of an unregenerated man is alive. Now, with the help of God -- not necessarily the regeneration -- that alive body/soul unregenerated creature can believe. And THEN, he is given spirtual life as well.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// IS the immortal soul of an unregenerated person alive or dead? ///
Dead - according to Paul in Ephesians 2 - "And you were.... DEAD"
/// metaphysically, the soul is alive... we know the body of an unregenerated man is alive. ///
Irrelevant. What matters in Regeneration is the SPIRITUAL state of the soul/man - not metaphysical.
/// Now, with the help of God...///
Nowhere is "help" mentioned in regard to salvation, but rather "CAUSED".
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 OK,so an unregenerated man has a living soul and body. Metaphysically and biologically. So, why can't God help that living body/soul "old" creature? Are unregenerated men as evil as they can be? Of course not. Most unregenerated poeple don't kill little children and offer them as sacrifices to Satan. Why, then, are unregenerated people not as evil as they can be? Answer: God's grace. So, if God can give grace to reporbates, why can't He help them to believe?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// OK,so an unregenerated man has a living soul and body. Metaphysically and biologically. So, why can't God help that living body/soul "old" creature? ///
Because man is not only composed of the Metaphysical/Biological... but also the SPIRITUAL.
And salvation concerned the SPIRITUAL.
/// Are unregenerated men as evil as they can be? ///
No - for one reason.... the COMMON GRACE of God RESTRAINING them from being as evil as they possibly could be.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 So you admit that God does give non-saving grace -- call it "common" if you wish -- to unregenerated man. So, why are you so against the idea that He also gives the non-saving grace to unregenerated men that allows them to have faith, which faith then leads to their regeneration?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// So, why are you against the idea that He also gives the non-saving grace to unregenerated men that allows them to have faith ///
Again, this is deceit.
For the simple reason that God DOESN'T give any type of grace merely "ALLOWING" men to have faith. There is NO SUCH THING.
There is no "allowing" in saving grace - but always CAUSING.
God's saving grace - to the elect - is that which regenerates them to faith and repentance (aka, regenerates them to salvation)
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Answer: God's grace. So, if God can give grace to reporbates, why can't He help them to believe? ///
Because in Reformed teaching there's a distinction between God's "COMMON" grace and His "SALVIFIC" grace.
The former is experienced by all alike, whereas the latter is only experienced by His elect.
As to the question of "Why".... God, according to His good pleasure and to the eternal counsel of His will, simply decreed them NOT to believe and NOT to be saved.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// why can't He help them to believe? ///
Again, this is a Straw Man.
The question is not "Why CAN'T He?".... but rather "Why DOES'NT He?"
Its not about what God CAN do - but rather about what He has PURPOSED to do.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// that alive body/soul unregenerated creature can believe. And THEN, he is given spirtual life as well ///
Could Lazarus step out of the tomb before or after he was raised to life?
I rest my case.
And likewise, one who is "spiritually dead" cannot perform anything "spiritual" (aka, faith) unless he was "spiritually alive" to begin with.
Reformed Theology specifically says that this "giving of spiritual life" is called Regeneration, and comes BEFORE we believe.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Lazarus could not step out of the tomb before he was raised. We agree. But Lazarus believed before he was raised. I rest my case. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Lazarus could not step out of the tomb before he was raised. We agree. But Lazarus believed before he was raised ///
I once again say... "Whether Lazarus "believed" before he was raised or not" is totally IRRELEVANT.
You are once again deceitfuly mixing the "spiritual" aspect with the "physical" aspect, commiting the fallacy of Equivocation.
Only Satan would do such a thing.
I rest my case.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// He who believes and is baptized will be saved. [MARK 16:16] ///
(1) So the thief on the cross wasnt "saved"??? LOL.
(2) You can also read that verse as SPIRITUAL baptism - not water.... He that believes [and is spiritually baptised into Christ because of belief] will be saved......
In fact, that would work quite well with the OPPOSITE of the scale in verse 16... "He that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned"
It mentions nothing of those who are not physically baptised
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 But you need the verse to say, "He who is saved will believe." But it doesn't say that does it?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// But you need the verse to say, "He who is saved will believe." But it doesn't say that does it? ///
Straw Man. A man is not saved "before he believes", but upon faith. And person is "regenerated TO" faith.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Lazarus is a good illustration of that. And he believed before he died. ///
You are confusing the "spiritual" with the "physical". Only Satan would do such deception.
Lazarus can only be used to illustrate that a physically dead man cannot do anything unless he is alive to begin with.
And likewise, a SPIRITUALLY dead person (someone who is unregenerated) cannot believe - for "to believe" requires that you be "spiritually alive" to begin with.
I stand unrefuted.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// where we die to sin and are raised to new spiritual life ///
That is a deceptive fallacy called "Equivocation" - "die to sin" is not the same as "dying WITH CHRIST". True Christians are not deceptive as to make a statement like you did.
"Dying to sin" (the day by day process of Sanctifiation) comes AFTER conversion - not BEFORE it - for a spiritually dead person cannot do anything.
"Dying WITH CHRIST" is what happens UPON CONVERSION - upon faith and repentance.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Rom 6 starts out in vs. 2 by saying "...we who died to sin..." Immediately after in vs. 3 it says "...all of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death." So "dieing to sin" is what happens in baptism. So, dieing to sin happens UPON conversion/regeneration. And of course it continues afterwards. But like Lazarus, who believed before he died, we too believe before we "die to sin" and are raised to "newness of life."
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Rom 6 starts out in vs. 2 saying "...we who died to sin..." Immediately after in vs. 3 it says "...all of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death ///
Again, Paul is referring in that passage NOT to "water baptism", as you assume, but rather to SPIRITUAL baptism - aka, the moment we believed in Christ, we were "baptised" as it were into Him.
/// So "dieing to sin" is what happens in this baptism. ///
Yes, the moment we believe.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 And does the raising of Lazarus refer to/ symbolize Spirtual baptism where one is resurected to spirtual life? Yes. And as you just said, in that spiritual baptism / regeneration, we "die to sin." That is illustrated by Lazarus's death. And before that, Lazarus believed.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// does the raising of Lazarus symbolize Spirtual baptism where one is resurected to spirtual life? ///
No it does not refer to spiritual "baptism". That is taking the illustration too far.
Whether Lazarus believed before is totally irrelevant.
What we CAN say is that "just as a person cannot perform PHYSICAL acts unless he is PHYSICALLY alive,,,, so also a person cannot perform SPIRITUAL acts (aka, faith) unless he is SPIRITUALLY alive.
Faith is a spiritual act.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 You say Lazarus's faith before he was raised is irrelevant. Isn't that just insular self-service? Of course it is relevant! It's the whole point. Can't the "world" (aka non-Christians) believe that Jesus came from the Father? "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me (Jn 17:21)." Yes. How can this be according to your theology? Isn't it a good thing for folks to believe that Jesus came from the Father?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Can't the "world" (aka non-Christians) believe that Jesus came from the Father? "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me (Jn 17:21)." ///
That simply proves that Jesus's miracles "AUTHENTICATED" Him as a messenger from God - as also did the miracles of the Apostles AUTHENTICATE them as messengers of God.
But merely seeing Jesus as "sent from the Father" isnt equal to salvation. SATAN knows that He is sent from God.
Doesnt prove your point at all.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 But believing that Jesus came from the Father is a good thing. And thus, it proves that God gives the whole world grace to believe good things. Even though the majority of them are not and never will be regenerated. As Jesus invites all to believe in Him, so I invite you to investigate the Catholic Church and join her. You will be in good company: Augustine, Jerome, Francis Beckwith (Google him), etc.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// But believing that Jesus came from the Father is a good thing ///
Where does it say in the Scripture that its a "good" thing? I want chapter and verse please.
The fact that they "knew He was from the Father" is actually GREATER CONDEMNATION. For they killed Him KNOWING He was from the Father.
/// As Jesus invites all to believe in Him, so I invite you to investigate the Catholic Church and join her. ///
You want me to investigate/join the Harlot? No thanks
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// you just said, in that spiritual baptism / regeneration, we "die to sin." ///
No - I did not say that. You are twisting my words.
Regeneration is not the same as "spiritual baptism into Christ".
Spiritual baptism in Christ happens WHEN WE BELIEVE - and FAITH is a FRUIT of regeneration.
However, an unregenerate person does not believe into Christ until he is first regenerated - for a spiritually dead man cannot perform spiritual acts (e.g. faith).
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 So a person who has just been regenerated -- resurrected to spirtual life -- is not "in Christ?" Of course he is. And so spiritual baptism happens at the same time as regeneration. "Baptism now saves you... 1 Pt 3:21." If spiritual baptism happens after regeneration, then you would have the New Creature just made and yet not "in Christ." So, your theology has the New Creature not in Christ and not godly.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// So a person who has just been regenerated -- resurrected to spirtual life -- is not "in Christ?" ///
You don't understand.
The very product of Regeneration IS faith and repentance.
God issues forth His effectual call through the preacher... and Regeneration, through God's irresistable grace, ENSURES that call is answered. Christians don't CHOOSE to believe, God CAUSES them to.
When a person is Regenerated to faith, he is then "IN CHRIST".
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// spiritual baptism happens at the same time as regeneration ///
Again.... Spiritual baptism is not the same as Regeneration.
The two things are completely separate/distinct.
The moment Christians are spiritually "baptised" is the moment Christians believe "into" Christ - when they are "baptised" into Christ.
But in order to "believe", we must be CAUSED to believe - through God's irresistable grace through Regeneration.
Regeneration preceeds faith.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// "Baptism now saves you... 1 Pt 3:21." ///
(PART 1)
Sacerdotalism (which is classic of Catholicism) is ERROR - the teaching that Water Baptism in and of itself has power to save.
When Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain EXACTLY what he means by it. He says that baptism saves you "NOT AS A REMOVAL OF DIRT FROM TH BODY" (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body)....
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// "Baptism now saves you... 1 Pt 3:21." ///
(PART 2)
... "BUT AS AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE" (that is, as an INWARD SPIRITUAL transaction between God and the individual, a transaction SYMBOLISED BY THE "OUTWARD" ceremony of baptism).
We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you - not the OUTWARD physical ceremony of baptism, but the INWARD spiritual reality which baptism represents".....
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// "Baptism now saves you... 1 Pt 3:21." ///
(PART 3)
Peter's phrase, "AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE" is another way of saying "a request for forgiveness of sins and a new heart."
When God gives a sinner a "clear conscience", that person has the assurance that every sin has been forgiven and that he or she stands in a right relationship with God (Heb.9:14 adn 10:22).
However, you cannot make that statement unless you are "previously" REGENERATED!
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 You know you explanation is lacking. Peter says "Baptism BEING OF THE LIKE FORM now saves you also..." Like form of what? Answer the waterhe was just talking about regarding Noah, where he says Noah was saved by the water. The water saved him because it washed the eveil men (representing sin) away from him and it floated him up to the mountain (represents the Kingdom).
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Peter says "Baptism BEING OF THE LIKE FORM now saves you also..." ///
That passage says that Baptism is SYMBOLIC or REPRESENTATIVE (hence "the LIKE FIGURE" in the KJV) of the real baptism that happened the moment we believe.
What I told you stands.
There is nothing "holy" about the ceremony. The ceremony is merely an OUTWARD WITNESS to what has happened to us inside.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Peter says "Baptism BEING OF THE LIKE FORM now saves you also..." ///
Again, if you read the WHOLE verse, it clearly states "NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh" - aka, not the outward ceremony with water - "but as AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A GOOD CONSCIENCE"
The latter is what "saves" - the "repentant" attitude - which is also accompanied hand in hand with FAITH. The ceremony is SUBSEQUENT
And as the Reformers say "A spiritually DEAD man cannot believe"
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// "Baptism now saves you... 1 Pt 3:21." ///
(PART 3)
Peter's phrase, "AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE" is another way of saying "a request for forgiveness of sins and a new heart."
When God gives a sinner a "clear conscience", that person has the assurance that every sin has been forgiven and that he or she stands in a right relationship with God (Heb.9:14 adn 10:22).
However, you cannot make that statement unless you are "previously" REGENERATED!
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// "Baptism now saves you... 1 Pt 3:21." ///
(PART 4)
An UNregenerated person would NEVER make "an appeal to God for a clear conscience".
Indeed, he cannot - for he is dead, and he sees no need to make such an appeal to God.
He needs to be made spiritually "alive" in order to make such an appeal.
Therefore, 1 PETER 3:21 is no proof that Regeneration is after faith.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Didn't the :Prodigal Son repent BEFORE he came back to the Father?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Didn't the Prodigal Son repent BEFORE he came back to the Father? ///
The "coming back" is merely the FRUIT of repentance.
However, a spiritually dead man sees no need to repent. Indeed, he cannot. He needs to be regenerated.
For a person is regenerated TO faith/repentance.
The Roman Catholic Church is a vile whore - and so also are those who follow her.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 John 20:31, "But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name." You see? Belief comes first , that, believing, you may have life. Faith comes before regeneration.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// You see? Belief comes first , that, believing, you may have life. Faith comes before regeneration. ///
A dead man cannot do anything, and likewise, a spiritually dead man cannot believe.
The Application of Redemption by the Holy Spirit is in many steps. Here they are...
"Effectual Calling & Regeneration, Faith & Repentance, Justification, Sanctification, Glorification".
My Ordo Salutis is more logical and Scriptural than yours.
I rest my case.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// John 20:31, "But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name." ///
That verse doesnt prove regeneration after faith. For a spiritually dead person cannot believe. A man is "regenerated TO faith".
Also, a man cannot "heed" the things of God unless God previously "opens his heart".
Did God open Lydia's heart BEFORE or AFTER she heeded the things spoken to her by Paul????
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// If spiritual baptism happens after regeneration, then you would have the New Creature just made and yet not "in Christ." ///
Again, FAITH is the moment we are "baptised" into Christ. But it is clear that a person cannot have "faith" unless he is first Regenerated.
Regeneration is another way of saying "God MAKING a man respond to His effectual call to salvation."
The call of the gospel goes to all people.... and yet only those who are "made to respond" are true
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 But you are stuck with the obvious conclusion: If we are not "in" Christ untilwe are spiritually baptized, then the New Creature who was just created by regeneration is NOT in Christ. How sad that you believe that. I have good news for you: The New Creature IS inChrist and is godly. God does not create junk.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// But you are stuck with the obvious conclusion: If we are not "in" Christ untilwe are spiritually baptized, then the New Creature who was just created by regeneration is NOT in Christ ///
Again, the aim of Regeneration is faith and repentance.
A person is "regenerated TO" faith and repentance.
Therefore, a man who (in your words) was "just regenerated" is ALREADY SAVED and ALREADY "in Christ. For a man who is regenerated is a man with "faith and repentance".
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// The New Creature IS inChrist and is godly ///
(1) The new creature - the product of regeneration, is certainly in Christ, for he was regenerated to faith and repentance.
(2) The only reason he walks in godliness is because the Spirit is working in him "both to will and to do", but however, he is still a sinner/ungodly man BY NATURE. He still has the sinful nature. He is not perfect. Hence the war between the flesh and the Spirit (GALATIANS 5:17)
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// So, dieing to sin happens UPON conversion/regeneration ///
No. Dying to sin is what happens upon CONVERSION (aka, repentance/faith) - not "Regeneration" - for Regeneration (which is BEFORE conversion) is the "replacing of the old unbelieving heart with a believing heart" and the spiritual resurrection of a person SO THAT HE CAN THEN believe.
Therefore Regeneration PREceeds faith.
Amyraldianism (which teaches faith before regeneration) is FALSE. :-)
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// And of course it continues afterwards. ///
You are once again referring to the Reformed Doctrine of SANCTIFICATION - a word you probably never heard of.
/// But like Lazarus, who believed before he died, we too believe before we "die to sin" ///
Thats an invalid illustration. It does not go with Scripture.
A person cannot believe unless he is first Regenerated - for Paul says "And you were dead" and a dead person cannot do anything.
Why do you reject this?
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." ///
That is referring to PHYSICAL (water) baptism - not SPIRITUAL baptism, which happens the moment we have faith in Christ.
Again, you are commiting the deceptive fallacy of "Equivocation".
The Bible distinguishes between PHYSICAL baptism and SPIRITUAL baptism - the former being SUBSEQUENT to the latter - for physical baptism is a step of obedience to Christ - and a spiritually dead person CANNOT obey Christ.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 So you are saying that we are spiritually baptized BEFORE we are physically baptized. And, that Mark 16:16 refers to physical baptism. OK, then Mark 16:16 says we WILL BE SAVED (future tense) as a result of believing and being baptized. What you need it to say is "He who believes and is baptized is already saved."
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
//// So you are saying that we are spiritually baptized BEFORE we are physically baptized. ///
Absolutely!
Water baptism is merely the OUTWARD symbol of what has already happened WITHIN.
/// Mark 16:16 says we WILL BE SAVED (future tense) as a result of believing and being baptized. ///
Yes. The moment a person "believes" (aka, saving faith), he is "spiritually" baptised into Christ's death. And water baptism is a subsequent OUTWARD symbol.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// OK, then Mark 16:16 says we WILL BE SAVED (future tense) as a result of believing and being baptized. ///
As a "result"??? Are you now a Roman Catholic? Lol
Mark 16:16 can also read "will CERTAINLY be saved" - for to "believe" is to apply the righteousness of Christ, and to be "baptised" is to "outwardly" portray what has happened on the inside as a show of OBEDIENCE to Christ - showing that our "faith" is not a dead faith, but a LIVING faith (see James 2)
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005
Did God open the heart of Lydia BEFORE, or AFTER she believed?
I rest my case.
I have no idea what books you have been reading, but they are certainly not Reformed.
Amyraldianism (which is what you adhere to) is false teaching and is "Arminianism/Remonstrantism" in disguise.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Answer: BEFORE. But that is my whole point. That does not refer to regeneration. God can prepare a man and enable a man to believe without regenerating him. Doesn't the farmer prepare the field (plowing) before he plants the seed? Yes. But is there new life yet? No. AFTER the seed is plantedin the prepared field, the seed springs to new life. Having the seed (gospel) planted is the preaching and hearing (faith). The sprout is new life (regeneration).
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// That does not refer to regeneration. God can prepare a man and enable a man to believe without regenerating him. ///
You are a Catholic, and that is the reason you reject the Reformed teaching on Regeneration.
According to Reformed teaching, is DOES refer to Regeneration.
The Reformed order has always been.... Election, Effectual Calling and Regeneration, Faith and Repentance (or "conversion"), Justification, Sanctification and Glorification
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 I know that Reformed Theology says that when God enables a man to believe that that is the moment of regeneration. But I also know that Reformed Theology defines regeneration as "resurrection to spiritual life." What I am trying to prove to you is that the enabling of man to believe is not regeneration, but is simply enabling. Regeneration comes after that due to a man's faith. "He who believes... will be saved."
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Having the seed (gospel) planted is the preaching and hearing (faith). The sprout is new life (regeneration)///
Preaching is the seed SOWED, but no man can "hear" until he is effectually regenerated and GIVEN EARS TO HEAR to begin with. Otherwise it falls on spiritually deaf ears.
The actual act of "giving" of ears to hear referrs in Reformed teaching to "Regeneration".
The seed cannot sprout until its made to come alive to begin with.
I stand unrefuted.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 The sprouting of the seed is the moment of new life, not the planting of the seed. The planting is the preaching and hearing of the lifeless (unregenerated) soil. "Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you (1 Pt 1:23)." We are born again (regenerated) "by" the word of God -- not "before" the word of God. The new life is "by" the preaching/hearing.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Sorry, but the terms "believe" and "is baptized" are aorist participles -- in Greek, a participle modifies a verb by answering questions. In this case the verb is "will be saved" and the question is "how?" That is Greek grammar. How will one be saved? By being baptized and believing. That is what, grammatically, the sentence means in English. We will be saved by believing and being baptized. The problem for you is that believing is included. Faith comes BEFORE.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// We are saved by believing and being baptized. The problem for you is that believing is included. Faith comes BEFORE. ///
You are once again deceitfully mixing up "spiritual" baptism (which occurs the same moment we believe) with "water" baptism - which is something we do AFTER we believe.
To "believe", means you must be spiritually alive TO BEGIN WITH - and the "resurrecting to spiritual life" in Reformed Theology is called "Regeneration".
You are a Catholic.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Mark 16 says we must believe first in order to be saved. "He who believes... will be saved." Are you saying one is regenerated before faith and therefore before being saved? Since being saved RESULTS from faith and baptism as Mark 16 teaches.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Are you saying one is regenerated before faith and therefore before being saved? Since being saved RESULTS from faith and baptism as Mark 16 teaches. ///
That is why we Reformed say "Regenerated to salvation". Have you never heard of that?
Regeneration is simply one of the "first steps" the Holy Spirit does in the "Application of Salvation".
I suggest you order "Redemption Accomplished and Applied" by JOHN MURRAY.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Now you are saying that regeneration is merely a "first step." Sorry, but regeneration is resurrection to spiritual life and thus, is rightly called by another name: "salvation." But Mark says we are saved by believing and being baptized. Thus faith comes before salvation /regeneration.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Now you are saying that regeneration is merely a "first step." Sorry, but regeneration is resurrection to spiritual life and thus, is rightly called by another name: "salvation." ///
I agree that Regeneration is "Resurrection TO spiritual life". Thats why I said a person is "Regenerated TO faith" - aka, "THE PROCESS BY WHICH" God causes a person to believe is called "Regeneration"
Regeneration is one of the first steps in the APPLICATION OF REDEMPTION by God
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Mark says we are saved by believing and being baptized.
The ending of the gospel of Mark is disputed by many. There are many reliable earlier sources that DO NOT CONTAIN the ending of Mark. Therefore you cannot form any doctrine apon that verse.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Thus faith comes before salvation /regeneration. ///
You are very deceitful man.
Saying that Regeneration and Salvation are the same is a fallacy of TOPIC. They are not. Regeneration is but one of the FIRST "STEPS" in the "APPLICATION of" salvation/redemption.
A person is regenerated "TO" salvation (faith and justification).
Mark 16:16 is not proof that faith comes before Regeneration. For a spiritually dead man CANNOT believe in the first place.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Your definition of regeneration is incomplete -- regeneration is a "new life of the soul, by which it rises from the dead (John Calvin)." ///
Yes... "rises from the dead" and therefore ENABLING THEM to repent and believe.
A dead man cannot do anything - not even believe - unless God the Holy Spirit performs a work BEFOREHAND.
Faith is an absolute IMPOSSIBILITY to an unregenerate man
The false-teaching that Faith is BEFORE regeneration is called "AMYRALDIANISM"
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// God works on the ungodly before he believes - that is not regeneration. Regeneration happens once the man has faith. ///
Nope. Regeneration IS "God working on the heart before he believes" - enabling the person to repent and believe. You are in error.
Reformed Theology clearly says that Regeneration is BEFORE faith, and that SANCTIFICTION (not Regeneration) is after we believe.
Amyraldianism is heretical, and is really Arminianism/Remonstrantism in disguise.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// "God justifies the ungodly?" But faith must be present before justification. ///
You misunderstand. Faith does not make us "godly"...and neither does Repentance.
Nothing we do can make us "godly". All our righteous deeds are filthy rags.
Faith is merely the arm that reaches out to hold that which truly justifies us.... namely, the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 My point is that faith comes before justification. And godliness comes after justification. Therefore, faith comes before godliness. Now, ask yourself, can someone who was just regenerated NOT be thusly godly? Is there even one second that elapses where the person is regenerated but not godly? The only conclusion must be that justification and regeneration happens at the same time. And faith precedes them both.
deliveringit 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// faith comes before justification ///
That does not prove Regeneration is after faith.
Regeneration and Effectual Calling come BEFORE faith - they enable/effectually CAUSE the person to repent and believe to eternal salvation.
Sanctification, on the other hand, is what you are referring to.
Only Amyraldianism/Arminianism/Remonstrantism teaches that a dead man can believe without being regenerated.
Calvin was certainly not an Amyraldian.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// And godliness comes after justification. Therefore, faith comes before godliness. ///
You are confusing Regneration with SANCTIFICATION - the two are not the same.
Regeneration comes BEFORE faith - it is in fact the enabling of the person to believe.
Sanctification comes AFTERWARDS.
If you believe a dead man can believe of his own accord, you are in error - that is the teaching of Amyraldianism and is mere Arminianism/Remonstrantism in disguise.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Now, ask yourself, can someone who was just regenerated NOT be thusly godly? ///
You are an Amyraldian. Amyraldianism is heretical and is not Reformed Theology.
Regeneration is merely the process of enabling a person to believe - it does not make a person "godly".
The proof for this is that a DEAD man (dead in trespasses and sins) CANNOT believe. Reformed Theology has long taught that he has to be REGENERATED beforehand so that he CAN (and will) believe.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Is there even one second that elapses where the person is regenerated but not godly? ///
Irrelevant.
/// The only conclusion must be that justification and regeneration happens at the same time. And faith precedes them both. ///
Nope. A spiritually dead person CANNOT perform any spiritual acts whatsoever - aka, he cannot "believe" savingly. He has to be "brought to life" first - just as Lazarus was brought to life BEFORE he could step out of the tomb.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// faith must be present before justification. Therefore, the ungodly have faith before they are godly/regenerated ///
(1)
Faith is certainly present before justification in the "actual" sense, but to have faith we must be regenerated first - thats why God "opened the heart of Lydia so that she could HEED the Gospel" (Acts 16:14)... There is no saving faith unless we HEED the truth of the Gospel to begin with.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 If you are defining "regeneration" simply to mean the preparation of the sinner to be able to accept and understand the gospel, I would agree that that kind of regeneration precedes faith. But that is not what "regeneration" means. The actual definition is "resurrection to spiritual life" Now THAT come after faith. Since God justifies the "ungodly" The ungodly have NOT been resurrected to spitutal life.
deliveringit 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// The actual definition is "resurrection to spiritual life" ///
Thats only the 1st part
The full definition is... "Resurrection to spiritual life, effectually ENABLING/CAUSING YOU TO BELIEVE/REPENT."
That is Reformed Theology.
A dead person cannot do ANYTHING, but needs life TO BEGIN WITH.
/// you are defining "regeneration" to mean the preparation of the sinner to be able to accept and understand the gospel ///
Yes. supported by Louis Berkhof and John Murray.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 OK, so now you admit that regeneration is not "merely ...the changing of an unbelieving/unrepentant heart for a believing/repentant heart." Regeneration also includes resurrection to spiritual life. Now that you have completely defined what you mean by "regeneration," let's proceed: When someone is regenerated, is that person thusly godly? Why? Why not? In other words, is the regenerated person godly or ungodly or could be either?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// When someone is regenerated, is that person thusly godly? ///
Before I answer, just to clarify... someone who is regenerat"ED" (past tense) is someone who is currently now believing in Christ - for regeneration preceeds faith.
Therefore I can ask you.....
Are you referring to "outward physical acts" of godliness (aka, the process of SANCTIFICATION) or are you referring to the "state" of godliness as God sees us IN CHRIST? (JUSTIFICATION)?
I await your response
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Immediately before regeneration are you godly or ungodly? Immediately after regeneration, are you godly or ungodly? I think that is the best way of approaching this. By godly I am referring to a state you are in or an attribute that you have. Someone who is godly is prone towards, desires and is capable of godliness/piety.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Immediately before regeneration are you godly or ungodly? ///
Both ungodly "by nature", and ungodly "in regard to the righteous standing before God".
The moment we are regenerated to faith in Christ, even though we are still ungodly by nature, we are "seen as" godly/perfect/sinless/righteous only because we are seen "in Christ".
/// Immediately after regeneration, are you godly or ungodly? ///
I answered that above.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 You wrote, "The moment we are regenerated to faith in Christ, even though we are still ungodly by nature." I notice you are trying to get faith in there by saying "regenerated to faith." No. You yourself said that a person must FIRST be regenerated IN ORDER to have faith. Even so, you are now on record as saying that immediately after regeneration, we are still "ungodly by nature." Therefore, the new creature that GOD MADE is ungodly. God makes ungodliness? Really?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// You said that a person must FIRST be regenerated IN ORDER to have faith ///
Yes a person must be "raised to life spiritually" in order to believe. Reformed Theology has ALWAYS taught that this "raising spiritually" is called "Regeneration".
You can deny that if you wish, but you cannot deny that its the teaching of Reformed Theology.
/// you are now on record as saying that immediately after regeneration, we are still "ungodly by nature." ///
Absolutely! :-)
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// so the new creature that GOD MADE is ungodly. God makes ungodliness?///
The New Creature is not PERFECT (as you assume) but is rather composed of BOTH "flesh AND Spirit". The Scriptures speak many times of the "war" between the sinful flesh and the Spirit (who is within us). We still have our old sinful nature - which is why Christians still sin.
The difference between the Old and the New, is that the New now has desires to obey God - wheres as before we cudnt.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 The New Creature is "born of Spirit." And "that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit (Jn 3:6)." Certainly, then, the New Creature is godly. Otherwise, you have God creating an ungodly New Creature. That just does not make sense and it belittles God's power and besmirches His own goodness. The New Creature, being born of the Spirit, and being spirit, is godly. Or, is that which is born of God the Holy Spirit ungodly?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// God makes ungodliness? Really? ///
God simply "puts His Spirit within us" and causes us to not only believe but to also desire godliness and to hate our sinfulness. That is whats called "the new creation".
God doesnt give us a perfect/godly "nature". What charlatan told you that? The Pope?? LOL.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 That which is born of spirit is spirit. God created the New Creature. Everything God creates is good. The New Creature that results from regeneration can have faith -- has the ability ot believe the gospel. Isn't that godly? Isn't that good?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// God created the New Creature.. Everything God creates is good. ///
Christian's are not "good" by nature, but are still sinful and depraved and wretched. The only good that we do comes directly from the Holy Spirit and not from ourselves.
/// The New Creature...can have faith -- has the ability ot believe the gospel. ///
There is no "can" or "able".... but, rather, the new creature "DOES" believe. Big difference. Catholicism is false.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// By godly I am referring to a state you are in or an attribute that you have. ///
Those are two completely different things.
Referring to our judicial "state", we are "seen as" godly/righteous only because we are "seen" IN CHRIST - who is our Federal Head.
However, in reality, we are still "ungodly" and "sinners" BY NATURE.
The work of the Spirit in SANCTIFICATION (which is something you obviously don't believe in) is to grant us more and more godly "desires".
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Someone who is godly is prone towards, desires and is capable of godliness/piety. ///
Noone is godly "by nature" - apart from God alone.
The only reason a sinner "desires" godliness is because the Spirit is CAUSING him to desire it.
Also, noone is "capable" or has the "ability" to do good. The only good we have is from God alone - after we are regenerated to faith in Christ.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 And so the new creature that GOD MADE is not capable nor even has the ability to do good? Really? God makes junk? God is so weak He fails to make a new creature who is good and can do good? Of course it si with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, but assistance or not, it is the new crature who is doing the good. having faith is good. Does the Holy Spirit have faith for the new creature? No. It is the man who believes -- and that is good.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// And so the new creature that GOD MADE is not capable nor even has the ability to do good? ///
Not at all - the only reason a Christian "does/desires good" is because God is CAUSING him to. The Christian in and of himself can do NOTHING.
Have you forgotten? "God works in you BOTH "TO WILL" and "TO DO" His good pleasure." (PHILIPPIANS 2:13)
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Yes! We agree. Man cannot do anything good without God's assistance. But the man -- with God's assitance -- does good. Take prayer for example. St. Paul says that prayer is "pleasing" to God. Does God pray to Himself? No. It is the man who prays -- with God's assistance. The New Creature is different than the old isn't it? And the New Creature can do good. Otherwise, why call it a "new" creature if it has no more ability than the old creature to do good?
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// God makes junk? ///
Straw Man.
/// God is so weak He fails to make a new creature who is good and can do good? ///
Straw Man - the issue is not what God CAN do, but what God has PURPOSED TO DO.
/// it is the new crature who is doing the good ///
No its not - GOD performs works of righteousness THROUGH US. We cannot attribute anything of that to ourselves. That is a very self-righteous statement u made. Typical of Catholics.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 The New Creature can do good. Of course it is with God's assitance. But it can do good, and thus is godly. A car can go fast, can't it? Now, it needs the assistance of the gasoline to go fast, but we do not therefore say that the car can't go fast -- just because it needs the assistance of gasoline. Are you godly right now? Yes or no.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// The New Creature can do good. ///
Nope. The new creature DOES do good. We "cannot" in and of ourselves. The only reaso a Christian DOES good or has DESIRES to do good is because those desires are wrought in him by the Holy Spirit. There is no "can". Catholicism is false.
/// it is with God's assitance. ///
Nope. Not even "assisance" I'm afraid. Its all GOD'S "DOING" through us - not "assisting". We are merely the clay in the hands of the Potter.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// But it can do good, and thus is godly. ///
Nope. We "cannot" do good, and therefore we are not "godly" by nature. There is no "can". The only reason we "DO" goodworks is because God is working in us "TO WILL AND TO DO" His good pleasure.
Its all of God. Catholicism is false.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// A car can go fast, can't it? Now, it needs the assistance of the gasoline to go fast, but we do not therefore say that the car can't go fast ///
You forget... a car needs a DRIVER - the gasoline itself doesnt make the car move, but the DRIVER does. And in Christians, only GOD is the driver. HE is the one driving the car and holding the wheel - not us.
If WE were driving or holding the wheel, we'd be in dire straights.
God works in us BOTH "to will" AND "to DO".
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Are you godly right now? Yes or no ///
Not by "nature", as you say - and neither are you.
Christian's are not "good" by nature.
The only reason I may "DO" good to the glory of God, is because the Holy Spirit is "working in me BOTH to will and to DO" His good pleasure.
If He lets go of the wheel, Christians fall into sin... But if He holds the wheel and directs it, Christians obey God and walk the straight path. Catholicism is false.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Let your answer, then be on your gravestone when you die someday: "Here lies doctorh2005. A Calvinist, and an ungodly man."
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Let your answer, then be on your gravestone when you die someday: "Here lies doctorh2005. A Calvinist, and an ungodly man." ///
Haha. Yes I agree :-) It would definitely create controversy for a good discussion on sin and our natural "wretchedness" - hopefully leading into the Gospel. Great idea! I would add "and a SINNER"
Afterall, the Lord Jesus confirmed that we are all, by nature, "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" [REV.3:17]
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Does the Holy Spirit have faith for the new creature? No. It is the man who believes ///
Only because the Holy Spirit is "causing" him to believe. And faith is the same as works - God causes us to will and to do His good pleasure.
We are merely clay in the Potter's hand.
/// In this case the verb is "will be saved" and the question is "how? How will one be saved? By being baptized and believing." ///
Was the thief on the cross baptised? Lol.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 The thief on the cross did not go to Heaven when he died - he went with Jesus to the earthly paradise of Abraham's bosom -- which wasn't Heaven. No-one went to Heaven before Christ ascended to Heaven 40 days after the resurrection. He was the first born of many brethren. He opened the gates of Heaven which had been closed until then.
deliveringit 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// The thief on the cross did not go to Heaven when he died - he went with Jesus to the earthly paradise of Abraham's bosom -- which wasn't Heaven. ///
There is no place distinct from Heaven called "Paradise".
God's people go STRAIGHT to Him (OT and NT).
Paradise is another name for Heaven.
/// No-one went to Heaven before Christ ascended to Heaven 40 days after the resurrection. ///
RUBBISH.
Only a dispensationalist believes that - but Scripture doesnt agree.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// The thief on the cross did not go to Heaven when he died - he went with Jesus to the earthly paradise of Abraham's bosom -- which wasn't Heaven. ///
There is no place distinct from Heaven called "Paradise".
God's people go STRAIGHT to Him (OT and NT).
Paradise is another name for Heaven.
/// No-one went to Heaven before Christ ascended to Heaven 40 days after the resurrection. ///
RUBBISH.
Only a dispensationalist believes that - but Scripture doesnt agree.
doctorh2005 2 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// the ungodly have faith before they are godly/regenerated... ///
(2)
You misunderstand. Regeneration [which PRECEDES faith/repentance (Acts 16:14)] does not make us "godly".
Regeneration merely is the changing of an unbelieving/unrepentant heart for a believing/repentant heart.
Faith itself is not "godliness".
You're referring to "Sanctification" - the process whereby the Holy Spirit causes us to walk in godliness more and more after we are saved.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
@doctorh2005 Again, you are using "regeneration" to mean "merely ...the changing of an unbelieving/unrepentant heart for a believing/repentant heart." OK. But please note that that is not the definition used by Calvin/Sproul/James White, et al...
deliveringit 3 weeks ago
@deliveringit
/// Again, you are using "regeneration" to mean "merely ...the changing of an unbelieving/unrepentant heart for a believing/repentant heart." ///
This is what Reformed Theology has taught thoughout Christian history - do you want a quote from Herman Bavinck for proof of that???
Amyraldianism is heretical - it is mere Arminianism/Remonstrantism in disguise.
John Calvin was NOT an Amyraldian - and besides, during his day the Ordo Salutis was not yet fully developed.
doctorh2005 3 weeks ago
great video, thanks for uploading
achelgeson93 10 months ago
LIKE absolute poop and a yearning of terrible proportion tends to overwhelm me afterward!
TheJWAY777 1 year ago
i sin
TheJWAY777 1 year ago
@TheJWAY777
/// I'd like to continue this debate at some later point, as it's getting a bit late...///
How do you feel when you sin bro?
doctorh2005 1 year ago
wow i liked this alot god called me to missionary work but i am constantly finding that i cannot live up to the standard and is salvation in fact not assured even to gods chosen people for such things as this?
TheJWAY777 1 year ago
@TheJWAY777
Please explain bro. What do u mean that you're not living up to the standard?
Dr H :-)
doctorh2005 1 year ago
BTW..
I would like to someone to refute me on this....
Instead of downrating it and running off like a coward.
DrH
doctorh2005 1 year ago