They should be taxed like everything else. The real shame is that humanity has to be taxed by the existence of any religion at all. It is far past the time that playing make believe and believing a mass delusion should not be excepted in the real world at all. Tax argument as well as many more are rendered impotent the moment these fantasies are exposed for what they really are. Manmade fiction.
I really never thought I'd say this but...I think I agree with Ashton Kutcher (or at least what he was implying): if a church provides a one or more substantial, tangible philanthropic benefits to the community then it should be exempt. I grew up in that world and didn't become an agnostic/atheist until my late 20s when I was in ordination classes at my church and I can say that a church that doesn't have any sort of community charity is a propoganda institution.
@tanaii214 If you think churches don't already political clout, you're dreadfully mistaken. Also, he's not mad at God. He's angry at the amount of power religious institutions exercise. One more thing, he HAS gone after the Scientology. Various times, actually. Both in his stand up and in his documentary.
@DocUnsane Because the revenues, no matter how "absurd," are entirely voluntary. Said churches could theoretically collect NO revenues, if people simply don't feel like donating. Would taxation be fair at that point?
@DocUnsane They would still have massive and unavoidable expenses, though--particularly utilities (which the government controls more and more anyway). And don't forget sales taxes. It's not like churches get to have free stuff.
So I must correct you: Even without taxes, all churches without revenue would still be forced to shut down. I've read of countless pastors who paid out of their own pockets to keep things going to the end. Not very selfish.
@BrotherAtticus Religious organizations don't pay sales tax. The pastor (or whoever) gets a form that he can show which will exempt them from all sales tax when purchasing products for his church. Simply have that if your church property is bigger than X, you pay property taxes. How many times do we see big city churches that take up most of the block?
@drownoble That's not true, and here's why: What you're thinking of is when someone from a church buys something for the church's use, but keeps the receipt so that the church can reimburse him or her. This is common when youth groups -- not just from churches, but colleges, for example -- purchase gasoline for a trip of some sort. No one gets "exempted" from sales taxes, unless a small business owner feels like paying out of pocket to give discounts to, say, returning soldiers, etc.
@BrotherAtticus I'm not talking about reimbursements from the church. If I was a pastor, I get a waiver from the state so that anything I buy for my church is 100% sales tax free. If I have to put in a new pew, I don't pay sales tax on the wood I buy. If I have a lunch at the church on sunday, I don't pay taxes on it.
@drownoble Secondly, capitalism is a staple of the Western heritage and, sadly for some, it is indifferent to complaints of "too big"; if you can afford it (and it's not illegal, of course), it is within your rights to do it. Government coercion of growth and property rights is a fatal conceit. Besides, just like any historical structures, many cities like the aesthetic appeal of their large churches or other religious buildings. Not everyone is going to feel the same way you do.
@BrotherAtticus The appeal you speak of is only within the circles of that specific religion. Many other religions feel large churches aren't needed. If you've seen some of these catholic churches they have a lot of "frills" that they didn't pay taxes on. Basically a church doesn't need to be the size of an office building, especially if they aren't paying taxes on it.
@BrotherAtticus The pope sits on a golden throne. Perhaps he should sell it to support his faith. churches should not be shut down because they don't make money, I didn't realize Christianity was for profit.
@darkmantlestudios It's not for profit because, again, churches can only gather as much money as people are willing to donate. No donor-supported institution of any kind can ever be "for profit." Be objective about this. In addition, a significant percentage of Christians -- not being Catholic -- don't answer to "the pope," regardless of how he operates.
@BrotherAtticus Haha, sorry, I lived in a very Catholic area, so saying Christian defaults me to catholic. But my point still stands as far as Catholics are concerned. On the last Sunday I went to church, the priest was begging his flock to donate $5000 to repair the roof of the church. He's unwilling to spend the church's money, while begging for donations. If catholic isnt for profit, why horde all that money and spend it on luxuries instead of necessities cant afford roof, buy gold and silk
@darkmantlestudios But what I've been saying is the congregation's money -- that is, what they choose to donate -- IS the church's money. Where does any church get money that is not donated to it? If the priest was telling the truth and the roof was indeed in disrepair, then to me it seems quite honest to tell the people upfront what the money is needed for. Don't fault the churches for the Vatican's (supposed) wealth, because they likely aren't actually "sponsored" by such.
@BrotherAtticus the money that they don't use is sent to the vatican. he asked for 5k to fix the roof, he likely got way more than that, and I assure you the excess isn't being used to help the community. seriously though, he ever has money, yet always gets more than asked, and doesn't spend it in the community. where does the excess go?
@darkmantlestudios I'm not Catholic and can't speak for them, but over the years I've sat in on the budget meetings of many different congregations that I'm not a part of; they allow anyone from the public to come watch as they list their assets & budget items to the very penny, then propose future plans for the money. The process is very transparent, and common in the Christian community. Thus, reason I have a hard time finding fault with church fiscal policy is...experience.
@darkmantlestudios their are over 1 billion catholics in the world and the vaticans anual intake from around the world in a few hundred million a year. thats only 10 or 20 or 30 cents a year per person.
@ned262626 by all means, cite your source, because I don't believe you. What I do believe is the tin passed around every week, full of checks and and coin. You were considered cheap if you didn't put in at least a dollar every week. that's 52 dollars a year per person.
If someone gives you money from the kindness of their heart their intention is that the money is yours and yours only. so i believe that money should not be taxed. but if the church is charging a fee for its services then it should be taxed. thats just my opinion
@BrotherAtticus apologies mate i am not christian, but if thats the case then I dont believe the Church have to pay taxes as people give money to the church because they want to.
Why is everyone so quiet and timid on this subject? Even Bill didn't speak up like I thought he would. Churches SHOULD pay taxes! They make millions of dollars, fund political causes/campaigns, and are businesses by any other name. There is a 'philanthropic nature' to a lot of American families, that doesn't mean we shouldn't tax them. Level the playing field and tax religious institutions.
@livingdeadgrl18 You must be careful using "they" in this case--it raises the issue of involuntary collectivism. Some (mega)churches are making "millions," but many are losing money and shutting down. Besides, separation of church and state was not invented to spite religion, believe it or not; if the two are to be separate, that means no government coercion of the churches, even through taxes.
@BrotherAtticus I've never really bought into the attitude that to be completely separate, churches should not pay taxes. To my mind, if you're going to be politically active, as many religious institutions are, you have to pay your share just like the rest of us. Giving tax exemptions to churches also puts the government in charge of sanctioning the lesser known organized religions. That goes against everything the founding fathers felt about the thick wall that should exist b/w church & state.
@livingdeadgrl18 Contrary to popular belief, most Christians are not theocrats, and that's what matters; it is not fair that their private, non-profit places of worship should be subject to government coercion if church and state are truly "separate," even if the (supposedly) practical thing might be to tax them.
Besides, all church money--and thus any "political activity" it is capable of--comes from its members, who are already taxed. You'd basically be taxing people double.
@BrotherAtticus The people are giving it up to the church, the church isn't giving it up to them. That's not taxing people double. Religious people can worship all they want, they can proselytize all they want (I will be the first to fight for their right to do so), but it is fundamentally unfair for them to receive automatic tax exemption. Religious institutions claim they are using money to give aid to third world countries, when in fact what they do is buy large quantities of real estate...
@livingdeadgrl18 First off, the sweeping generalization that all churches obtain and misuse lavish funds is disgusting; most do indeed partake in humanitarian projects. Just as many struggle to survive, shut down, and are demolished. Secondly, "real estate," if that, is not a misuse of funds; how else can any institution expand its services? Particularly if, say, a church's original building is over capacity? The limits you seem to be drawing are both unsafe and impractical.
and funding political campaigns. They should be held to the same standard as other philanthropic organizations. Instead of getting automatic tax exemption, they should be able to prove they deserve it.
@livingdeadgrl18 It was the Founders who made such institutions tax-exempt in the first place. I don't see how taxing the churches, which receive 100% of their funds from donations from private citizens (and thus could theoretically receive NOTHING for any stretch of time), is not indirectly taxing those citizens double. No, said citizens don't "have" to give, but their church will go under if they don't. That's economics. So what's the solution?
@BrotherAtticus It appears our discussion is getting quite heated. If we were at a dinner party, this is the point I would probably just change the subject, as it is clear to me that we're not going to come to any sort of agreement. Just to clear things up, I never said that the founders didn't establish the tax exempt status of religious institutions. I said that to have a bias in favor of the Judeo-Christian places of worship goes against the idea of separation of church/state. In any case...
where we disagree has to do with philosophical differences. You obviously see the perpetuation of religion as a positive thing. I think I have made it quite obvious I do not.
@livingdeadgrl18 Then I'll close on this: I do see as positive the perpetuation of religion...if such is done on a personal, independent scale, not a coercive governmental scale. If America were a theocracy, even a Christian one, I would not wish to live here. There are plenty of reasons why a separation of church and state is good for both the believing and non-believing citizen. Thus I'm trying to make clear to you my espousal of the wishes and values of the Founders. Cheers.
@BrotherAtticus And I'll close on this: For there to be a definite separation of church/state, churches (and other religious institutions) must abide by the same rules as other 'philanthropic' organizations. They must keep open books and prove that they deserve tax exemption. Tax exemption is a privilege, it should not be a right.
Dear people, you don't want to make churches tax exempt for the SAME reason our founding fathers didn't want it. If you tax the church then there is no longer a separation between church and state in America. That means that the church will then have a lot more control. The separation is necessary because it does draw the line somewhere.
Bill Maher doesn't even think about a smart way to talk about this, he's just so concentrated on his hatred toward religion. I can't believe that some atheists are actually cocky about being atheist. You won't teach anybody with that attitude and you make it harder to teach. The organized religions are basically real estate; you pay money to what will then be used to build another church, temple, etc.
Actually by offering tax-exempt and then granting special sanction, the current system quite blatantly shows favoritism and bias, punishing, comparatively, less well established or newer religions, picking and choosing what gets this advantage.
Also, freedom doesn't mean special perks beyond the normal citizen.
Taxing churches would mean equality of religion, which is in support of the first amendment, not against it.
@Ryakki no see by taxing church your breaking the amendment against religion by taxing "churches your letting the government chose which religion is right. That is wrong america is a place where people should have there own believes.
@Chelsea4President YOU are the nazi, dumbass. You want excise taxes on the church because you hate religion. Stop being such an anti-theist and leave people alone, after all that is the 1st Amendment. Separation of church and state doesn't mean DESTRUCTION of the church by the state, but of course you stupid leftists conveniently ignore that.
As long as churches and religion stay away from politics and don't harm anyone, they can do whatever they want. As soon as they try to impose their lifestyle on the people by using politics and "morals" to implement laws that serve them, intelligent people have to step up.
The Catholic church is the wealthiest non-profit organization in the world..
Why don't we use that money to fund science and education, considering half the world is starving, has aids, is underdeveloped, or believes in a crazy man in the sky.
Churches should pay taxes. If they spend so much on their fancy buildings, political campaigns, and hush $ for children raped by priests, why shouldn't they?
@TheSnoopy1750 Every church is a cult. Catholics are a cult, according to Jews. Protestants are a cult, according to Caholics. Muslims are a cult, according to white America. Your point is moot.
@AtheistDaddy Not sure if the Catholic church is a cult per se, even if you consider yourself to be an atheist.
I think the people who established the Catholic Church really believed Jesus was the son of God.
In contrast, Joseph Smith was a charlatan who fabricated the Book of Mormon in order to benefit personally - he can marry many young girls, gets 10% of members' incomes and can't be questioned as he was a "prophet" and can refer to the BoM which was 100% "true" as it's directly from God.
@TheSnoopy1750 cults and religions only really differ by size and amount of time its been around. Look at Scientology, the tenets arent really any crazier than Christianity, but its so new and has few members so its a cult. If scientology is around in 500 years it will just be seen as another religion. Religions help unintelligent people cope with the world around them, and it doesnt look like unintelligent people are going to stop breeding
@MrKGatl I differ somewhat on your differentiation between cults and religion.
I really think the people who started Christianitt, for example, really believed Jesus was the son of God.
On the other hand, Hubbard (science fiction writer) completely made up Scientology.
Same with Joseph Smith, who was arrested as a con man before he made up Mormonism. The LDS cult allowed him to benefit personally - marry many women, control people as a "prophet" and take 10% of incomes (tithings).
The distinction you make is false. Christianity was founded when nearly everyone had no way to gain accurate scientific knowledge, such that superstition etc. was rife. Scientology was founded when everyone had a way to gain scientific knowledge, such that superstition was readily discredited. If Christianity were founded today, it would be treated in the same way as Scientology. In effect, blind belief stems from ignorance of the world.
@kate5845y False - back in 1830, nobody could prove that the Book of Mormon was a fraud.
Now DNA has proven the BoM is a fraud as Indians are NOT a tribe of Israel, but are of Asian ancestry.
Furthermore, we know man originated in Africa so Smith's claim that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri is now known to be false.
We can't prove Jesus didn't turn water into wine etc. but we know Joseph Smith was a lying charlatan who started a fraudulent CULT to personally benefit.
@kate5845y Also, even the Smithsonian has stated that there is no collaboration of archeology that is consistent with the Book of Mormon. Not that it's needed, as DNA is the most accurate scientific way to prove the BoM is a fraud.
Just google:
Smithsonian book of Mormon statement
The godandscience () org google result even has a copy of the letter.
@MrKGatl Also, Scientology is a proven fraud - the universe is only 13.7B yrs old while Hubbard credits Thetans with creating the universe trillions of yrs ago.
Mormons say the American Indians are a lost tribe of Israel that came to America in 600BC. DNA tests have proven this false with proof that Indians are actually of Asian ancestry, with zero proof of any Israeli ancestry. Furthermore, Mormons say the Garden of Eden was in Missouri when science says man originated in Africa.
@AtheistDaddy I have never heard any Jew call the Catholics a cult, nor heard Catholics calling Protestants or even Muslims a cult.
Most rational people, regardless of religion, can come to the conclusion that Mormonism is not even a religion, but rather a fraudulent weirdo cult started by the con man Joseph Smith.
@Jamielde Because it is a very complicated subject that a lot of people do not understand thoroughly. I am not claiming that I do, I am just saying that when it comes to politics I would rather listen to someone trained and knows what they are talking about. Not an actor.
@clwgirl510 Video game's have nothing to do with government. Yet we tax them. By your logic why should we tax anything? After all I am not part of the government why am I getting taxed? You also have to dig deeper, they get a lot of tax's cuts but still use such things like, the police and fire department.
@Seakkon That's a state tax, not federal tax. The federal government funds all things that go against Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc beliefs. That would interfer with Freedom of Religion. Now I would agree that if the police or fire department has to service a church, they should be paid by the church, SEPERATELY.
@clwgirl510 Last time I checked, state government is still government. After all churches still don't pay state tax either. They are 100% tax free. Yet they still get help and breaks and all this other funds from goverment. They should be tax, and thinking they shouldn't is just down right dumb.
@satinISsexy Finally, if you didn't understand my point, being a relgious organization shouldn't warrant tax-free status. The original point of the tax free status was to enforce separation of church and state, and provide tax breaks for charitable giving.
If the religious leader in question doesn't truly believe in a religion and just uses the title for tax fraud and manipulating others for personal income (and you can prove it), they should have their tax-free status revoked.
@satinISsexy What do you mean comes out of everybody's birthday card? It's a personal donation to the receiver on their birthday. And if I like my next friend as much I'll give them the same in their birthday card.
Again, churches run on donations and perform a charity, so like other charities they don't pay taxes. Whether they receive large or small amounts as long as it's charitable giving it's still tax-free. Charity isn't a "deal", it's voluntary giving so ur not supposed to get anything
The mega-churches of today are nothing more than multi-BILLION $ corporations. And like most American corporations (who finance right-wing political candidates) they don't pay taxes. TAX EVERYONE EVERY WHERE!
There are motivational speakers who sell intangible things like hope, determination, and happiness. They have to pay taxes on income earned and real estate held. How are churches different?
Tax the bastards. I live in Florida and there are churches everywhere. Typically you see a house being built first (for the preacher) and later the church is built. Every but of the land and house are tax free. Its bullshit, they use water sewer, garbage and roads. They should at least pay something. Taxes are paid on vacant land for christ sake/
@temporaldisplacement Matthew 17:27 >>But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours
@ned262626 When somebody asked should they support Sinful Rome. Jesus give what is to Ceaser, Ceaser and give to God, God. I think its more cultural issue that America doesn't tax temples.
If evangelical Christians and churches want to give $5,000,000,000 to Israel every year, they can do it. I don't want the federal government conscripting me into it through taxes. I can't afford it!
Churches are responsible for the inquisition, and churches are responsible for Jonesville and the coolaid. Yes and churches are responsible for holding humanity back saying the world is only 6,000 years old and a snake talked to eve. If you believe that though, please let me talk you in to a land deal I have in the swamplands of Florida. Only one million down and you can believe what you like.
Churches are required to open their books to be audited every year like all non-profit corporations do. Any "profits" the church has any given year are put back into the ministry and work of the church. I am sorry that so many good people out there have such a negative view of the church.
@postmodernman07043 You are wrong. Churches (religious organizations) are NOT required to open their books to the public. Religious organizations do not fall under the catagory of Non-Profit. They are considered corporations, not charitiable organizations. NOW, some Churches may open their books to their parish, BUT they are NOT required to open their books for public inquiry.
And considering some Churchs actually own "for profit" business, they are still counted as tax exempt.
@bluntman1138 Thank you for your comments. You are correct that churches do not have to open their books to the public. I was not clear in my last comments about that. Unfortunately, there are far too many churches who own "for profit" businesses and charge rent for outside groups to use their facilities. They are jeopardizing their tax-exempt status by doing so. This is very disturbing because it reflects badly on all churches who are following the rules.
@allgoo19 "Follow the rules, if you want to" does NOT work whether it is a church, synagogue, a mosque, a for-profit business, a government entity or your own life. It doesn't work. Take responsibility for your own life, the good and the bad stuff together. And help others around you take responsibility for their own lives, then I believe we will have a chance to make the world a better place to live in.
I agree w/ demmmmm1, they all should be required to open their books like every other non-prof if they expect tax exempt status. Why should it be automatic because they call themselves a church? Not only is it bullshit it's unconstitutional.
Churches should have to do what ever 501 (c)(3) does. They have to prove that their service is worthy of non-profit status, and they have to put their profits back into their programming, and they have to have their financial books open for all to see.
If a church is using most of its income to feed the homeless, great. If they’re buying a 10,000 gold-leafed church on the ocean, taxes are in order.
I beleive that churches should pay taxes, they are selling a service by accepting numerous "tips" from their followers. Healthcare professionals offer more and better help to the general people than churches do, and they still pay taxes. Why do churches have a privilige when we know they offer a service and get paid for it? The difference is that people are fanatics and blind to see reality!
@liza2000us2001 Because real churches don't charge people for prayers like doctors. Some are money-makers, but most churches are small and run on non-mandatory donations that go into just keeping the building where people in the community can meet. What's left "should" go back into the community in the form of food banks and the like. Churches are community charities in most cases, or at least they're supposed to be. It's not supposed to be a business even if the corrupt turn it into one.
@Dmanbradley which is what Ashton was touching on. Churches that are just selling books, and CD's then investing all that money into luxuries for the building and huge pastor salaries aren't a charity so they should be taxed on those donations as they are treating them like a business would. But churches in general shouldn't be taxed for only receiving donations. Most only put 1-5 dollars in offering, taxing that is like taxing the 5 to 20 bucks I get in my birthday cards.
Church sells a service...they are a business. Now if they all were truly philanthropic, they would manage their budgets like a govt run, or non-profit agency, however they do not. These organizationa make money and there is no denying it. Just do a search for "Mega Church" in google to see the multi-million dollar churches and then consider how much in taxes they didn't pay.
@asmodeusambrose That's not enough? The churches I have been a part of rely solely on donations from those who feel led to give to the ministry that particular church does. Most other non-profit corporations receive some aid from the local, state or federal government. My churches carry out annual audits of their books to ensure no inproprieties. Also, churches do not receive any financial aid or real dollars from any government body (separation of church and state.)
Churches and synagogues provide philanthropic benefits to any community. Their mission is to enhance the life of the community, meeting people at their point of need. Granted, they may not do this well all the time, but neither do government services and other non-profit institutions. It's easier to tax everyone than to actually get involved in your community to improve the lives of others.
macroevolve said "As long as the country wants seperation of church and state, churches do not have to pay taxes"
Say what??? Churches are exempt from taxation because they are supposedly non-profit organizations. Separation of church and state prohibits churches from assuming a role in governance. The two have nothing to do with each other whatsoever.
The avg. church in my city has about 10-15 acres of land & they also have a house afew hundred ft. away from the church which the priest/child molester live in, & dodge paying taxes on the home,vehicle(s),& of course 10-15 acres of land, talk about freeloader's
Churches can get excemptions for charity donations just like people can so there's no need to not tax them. Pat Robertson should be paying GD taxes if I have to!
its ridiculous how many tax exemptions exist in the USA. And how few of them are for middle class and lower class. Come on guys! No wonder theres a debt when tax rates are the lowest in 40 years!
@dchris1990 Get used to it, because the people making our laws are either directly benefiting from those cuts or are in the pockets of the people who are.
by giving a tax exemption, government then has to come up with a legal definition of religion to determine who gets the exemption. Said defination could discriminate against some religions. It also enable instanced where claims of being religious/ a cult could be used to dodge taxes. Overall it is better to just tax everyone the same way, dodging the entire mess.
@T3chyo The non-taxation of churches stems from The Church of England where church goers were required to pay a tax upon entry and those taxes went to the head of the church which was the ruling monarch.
I have a question...do mosques have to pay taxes? or synagogues? or temples?...I am hindu and i go to a temple so I was just curious. If they don't then they all have to start paying taxes and if they do then this whole America is great because of the separation of church and state thing is bullshit...
agree with bill, they are selling a product (an invisible one) they should be taxed. all these idiots that donate their hard earned money to try and buy their way into heaven (which won't they be bummed since there is none) so the church has hush money for the children they rape and their gold statues. u wanna pray u could just do it from home free of charge. like omg do u people not see the scam goin on here? u really can't be that dumb
agree with bill, they are selling a product (an invisible one) they should be taxed. all these idiots that donate their hard earned money to try and buy their way into heaven (which won't they be bummed since there is none) so the church has hush money for the children they rape and their gold statues. u wanna pray u could just do it from home free of charge. like omg do u people not see the scam goin on here? u really can't be that dumb
The government can't make laws that interfere with religion, that includes laws on taxation. Also, churches are not restricted on free speech unless they apply for 501c3 status. In that case, they become limited as a corporation while receiving certain perks. But regardless of corporate status, they are tax exempt by the 1st Amendment.
Sorry, but your 1st amend. argument doesn't hold water.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Taxing churches like any other business does neither. It doesn't promote the church and it doesn't hinder its religious exercise. Saying "You have to pay tax for your income" does not equal "You are prohibited from doing X and Y".
@Aaberg123 Taxing money that was tithed to the church in order to pay for secular government, rather than the purpose of the religion for which it was donated, is interfering with the exercise of religion. If people want to donate to the government, they are free to do so. But when they choose to donate to the church, they expect that the money will be used by and for the church. Taxing the employees of the church is a different story...
What about freedom of speech? It's the same old story, accept something from the government and they "own you." Maybe churches should pay taxes and become free to say what they want -- but then the government would be free to "tax churches out of existence."
You're young and naive, Therefore I shall have to educate you.
Genesis 47:26 records Pharaoh exempting the priests’ land from taxation, and Ezra 7:14 indicates that none of the priests, Levites, singers, porters or ministers of the house of God were to be charged tax, toll or custom. Around 325 BC, Constantine ordered a tax edict, church buildings & the land surrounding them were exempt. Centuries later, European countries cont.d the tradition of exemption, albeit morally wrong.
" I dont care what the hell the Bible says, what does that have to do with our government?"
Most idiotic statement ever, You give a bad name to us Anti-theists.
Hello, fucktard. 90% of America's Congress are which religious denomination? CHRISTIANS, you idiotic fucking American. I'm not even American, you should be ashamed of yourself. You really prove the stereotype. Americans are dumber than mushrooms.
They should be taxed like everything else. The real shame is that humanity has to be taxed by the existence of any religion at all. It is far past the time that playing make believe and believing a mass delusion should not be excepted in the real world at all. Tax argument as well as many more are rendered impotent the moment these fantasies are exposed for what they really are. Manmade fiction.
iihippoii 1 week ago
I really never thought I'd say this but...I think I agree with Ashton Kutcher (or at least what he was implying): if a church provides a one or more substantial, tangible philanthropic benefits to the community then it should be exempt. I grew up in that world and didn't become an agnostic/atheist until my late 20s when I was in ordination classes at my church and I can say that a church that doesn't have any sort of community charity is a propoganda institution.
PaladinHero 3 weeks ago
priests and ministers and rabbis do pay taxes on income.
ned262626 4 weeks ago
@tanaii214 If you think churches don't already political clout, you're dreadfully mistaken. Also, he's not mad at God. He's angry at the amount of power religious institutions exercise. One more thing, he HAS gone after the Scientology. Various times, actually. Both in his stand up and in his documentary.
livingdeadgrl18 1 month ago
some churches are clearly run like businesses.
like the super churches in the south. look at how the pastors who run them live, that alone should be reason to tax churches....
people can still gather wherever they want to pray, do they really need to collect such absurd revenues?
DocUnsane 1 month ago
@DocUnsane Because the revenues, no matter how "absurd," are entirely voluntary. Said churches could theoretically collect NO revenues, if people simply don't feel like donating. Would taxation be fair at that point?
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
@BrotherAtticus well, if they had no revenues then they wouldn't be taxed on anything, would they?
DocUnsane 1 month ago
@DocUnsane They would still have massive and unavoidable expenses, though--particularly utilities (which the government controls more and more anyway). And don't forget sales taxes. It's not like churches get to have free stuff.
So I must correct you: Even without taxes, all churches without revenue would still be forced to shut down. I've read of countless pastors who paid out of their own pockets to keep things going to the end. Not very selfish.
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
@BrotherAtticus Religious organizations don't pay sales tax. The pastor (or whoever) gets a form that he can show which will exempt them from all sales tax when purchasing products for his church. Simply have that if your church property is bigger than X, you pay property taxes. How many times do we see big city churches that take up most of the block?
drownoble 1 month ago
@drownoble That's not true, and here's why: What you're thinking of is when someone from a church buys something for the church's use, but keeps the receipt so that the church can reimburse him or her. This is common when youth groups -- not just from churches, but colleges, for example -- purchase gasoline for a trip of some sort. No one gets "exempted" from sales taxes, unless a small business owner feels like paying out of pocket to give discounts to, say, returning soldiers, etc.
BrotherAtticus 4 weeks ago
@BrotherAtticus I'm not talking about reimbursements from the church. If I was a pastor, I get a waiver from the state so that anything I buy for my church is 100% sales tax free. If I have to put in a new pew, I don't pay sales tax on the wood I buy. If I have a lunch at the church on sunday, I don't pay taxes on it.
drownoble 4 weeks ago
@drownoble Secondly, capitalism is a staple of the Western heritage and, sadly for some, it is indifferent to complaints of "too big"; if you can afford it (and it's not illegal, of course), it is within your rights to do it. Government coercion of growth and property rights is a fatal conceit. Besides, just like any historical structures, many cities like the aesthetic appeal of their large churches or other religious buildings. Not everyone is going to feel the same way you do.
BrotherAtticus 4 weeks ago
@BrotherAtticus The appeal you speak of is only within the circles of that specific religion. Many other religions feel large churches aren't needed. If you've seen some of these catholic churches they have a lot of "frills" that they didn't pay taxes on. Basically a church doesn't need to be the size of an office building, especially if they aren't paying taxes on it.
drownoble 4 weeks ago
@BrotherAtticus The pope sits on a golden throne. Perhaps he should sell it to support his faith. churches should not be shut down because they don't make money, I didn't realize Christianity was for profit.
darkmantlestudios 4 weeks ago
@darkmantlestudios It's not for profit because, again, churches can only gather as much money as people are willing to donate. No donor-supported institution of any kind can ever be "for profit." Be objective about this. In addition, a significant percentage of Christians -- not being Catholic -- don't answer to "the pope," regardless of how he operates.
BrotherAtticus 4 weeks ago
@BrotherAtticus Haha, sorry, I lived in a very Catholic area, so saying Christian defaults me to catholic. But my point still stands as far as Catholics are concerned. On the last Sunday I went to church, the priest was begging his flock to donate $5000 to repair the roof of the church. He's unwilling to spend the church's money, while begging for donations. If catholic isnt for profit, why horde all that money and spend it on luxuries instead of necessities cant afford roof, buy gold and silk
darkmantlestudios 4 weeks ago
@darkmantlestudios But what I've been saying is the congregation's money -- that is, what they choose to donate -- IS the church's money. Where does any church get money that is not donated to it? If the priest was telling the truth and the roof was indeed in disrepair, then to me it seems quite honest to tell the people upfront what the money is needed for. Don't fault the churches for the Vatican's (supposed) wealth, because they likely aren't actually "sponsored" by such.
BrotherAtticus 4 weeks ago
@BrotherAtticus the money that they don't use is sent to the vatican. he asked for 5k to fix the roof, he likely got way more than that, and I assure you the excess isn't being used to help the community. seriously though, he ever has money, yet always gets more than asked, and doesn't spend it in the community. where does the excess go?
darkmantlestudios 4 weeks ago
@darkmantlestudios I'm not Catholic and can't speak for them, but over the years I've sat in on the budget meetings of many different congregations that I'm not a part of; they allow anyone from the public to come watch as they list their assets & budget items to the very penny, then propose future plans for the money. The process is very transparent, and common in the Christian community. Thus, reason I have a hard time finding fault with church fiscal policy is...experience.
BrotherAtticus 4 weeks ago
@darkmantlestudios their are over 1 billion catholics in the world and the vaticans anual intake from around the world in a few hundred million a year. thats only 10 or 20 or 30 cents a year per person.
ned262626 4 weeks ago
@darkmantlestudios maybe the church doesnt have any money, most catholic churches do not.
ned262626 4 weeks ago
@ned262626 by all means, cite your source, because I don't believe you. What I do believe is the tin passed around every week, full of checks and and coin. You were considered cheap if you didn't put in at least a dollar every week. that's 52 dollars a year per person.
darkmantlestudios 3 weeks ago
why was kutcher on the show
lukassnakeman 1 month ago
@lukassnakeman We may never know Billy...We may never know
WeEatBrainz 1 month ago
If someone gives you money from the kindness of their heart their intention is that the money is yours and yours only. so i believe that money should not be taxed. but if the church is charging a fee for its services then it should be taxed. thats just my opinion
thankubitches 1 month ago
@thankubitches I don't think any American church has ever charged a fee for its services.
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
@BrotherAtticus apologies mate i am not christian, but if thats the case then I dont believe the Church have to pay taxes as people give money to the church because they want to.
thankubitches 1 month ago
@thankubitches No problem.
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
Why is everyone so quiet and timid on this subject? Even Bill didn't speak up like I thought he would. Churches SHOULD pay taxes! They make millions of dollars, fund political causes/campaigns, and are businesses by any other name. There is a 'philanthropic nature' to a lot of American families, that doesn't mean we shouldn't tax them. Level the playing field and tax religious institutions.
livingdeadgrl18 1 month ago
@livingdeadgrl18 You must be careful using "they" in this case--it raises the issue of involuntary collectivism. Some (mega)churches are making "millions," but many are losing money and shutting down. Besides, separation of church and state was not invented to spite religion, believe it or not; if the two are to be separate, that means no government coercion of the churches, even through taxes.
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
@BrotherAtticus I've never really bought into the attitude that to be completely separate, churches should not pay taxes. To my mind, if you're going to be politically active, as many religious institutions are, you have to pay your share just like the rest of us. Giving tax exemptions to churches also puts the government in charge of sanctioning the lesser known organized religions. That goes against everything the founding fathers felt about the thick wall that should exist b/w church & state.
livingdeadgrl18 1 month ago
@livingdeadgrl18 Contrary to popular belief, most Christians are not theocrats, and that's what matters; it is not fair that their private, non-profit places of worship should be subject to government coercion if church and state are truly "separate," even if the (supposedly) practical thing might be to tax them.
Besides, all church money--and thus any "political activity" it is capable of--comes from its members, who are already taxed. You'd basically be taxing people double.
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
@BrotherAtticus The people are giving it up to the church, the church isn't giving it up to them. That's not taxing people double. Religious people can worship all they want, they can proselytize all they want (I will be the first to fight for their right to do so), but it is fundamentally unfair for them to receive automatic tax exemption. Religious institutions claim they are using money to give aid to third world countries, when in fact what they do is buy large quantities of real estate...
livingdeadgrl18 1 month ago
@livingdeadgrl18 First off, the sweeping generalization that all churches obtain and misuse lavish funds is disgusting; most do indeed partake in humanitarian projects. Just as many struggle to survive, shut down, and are demolished. Secondly, "real estate," if that, is not a misuse of funds; how else can any institution expand its services? Particularly if, say, a church's original building is over capacity? The limits you seem to be drawing are both unsafe and impractical.
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
and funding political campaigns. They should be held to the same standard as other philanthropic organizations. Instead of getting automatic tax exemption, they should be able to prove they deserve it.
livingdeadgrl18 1 month ago
@livingdeadgrl18 It was the Founders who made such institutions tax-exempt in the first place. I don't see how taxing the churches, which receive 100% of their funds from donations from private citizens (and thus could theoretically receive NOTHING for any stretch of time), is not indirectly taxing those citizens double. No, said citizens don't "have" to give, but their church will go under if they don't. That's economics. So what's the solution?
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
@BrotherAtticus It appears our discussion is getting quite heated. If we were at a dinner party, this is the point I would probably just change the subject, as it is clear to me that we're not going to come to any sort of agreement. Just to clear things up, I never said that the founders didn't establish the tax exempt status of religious institutions. I said that to have a bias in favor of the Judeo-Christian places of worship goes against the idea of separation of church/state. In any case...
livingdeadgrl18 1 month ago
where we disagree has to do with philosophical differences. You obviously see the perpetuation of religion as a positive thing. I think I have made it quite obvious I do not.
livingdeadgrl18 1 month ago
@livingdeadgrl18 Then I'll close on this: I do see as positive the perpetuation of religion...if such is done on a personal, independent scale, not a coercive governmental scale. If America were a theocracy, even a Christian one, I would not wish to live here. There are plenty of reasons why a separation of church and state is good for both the believing and non-believing citizen. Thus I'm trying to make clear to you my espousal of the wishes and values of the Founders. Cheers.
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
@BrotherAtticus And I'll close on this: For there to be a definite separation of church/state, churches (and other religious institutions) must abide by the same rules as other 'philanthropic' organizations. They must keep open books and prove that they deserve tax exemption. Tax exemption is a privilege, it should not be a right.
livingdeadgrl18 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@gigaboy47
Really? Gun shops and hospitals don't pay any property taxes? The owner of a gun shop doesn't pay income tax? Doctors don't pay income tax?
Since when. :O
Ryakki 1 month ago
Comment removed
Ryakki 1 month ago
Dear people, you don't want to make churches tax exempt for the SAME reason our founding fathers didn't want it. If you tax the church then there is no longer a separation between church and state in America. That means that the church will then have a lot more control. The separation is necessary because it does draw the line somewhere.
LuneyTune72 1 month ago
Bill Maher doesn't even think about a smart way to talk about this, he's just so concentrated on his hatred toward religion. I can't believe that some atheists are actually cocky about being atheist. You won't teach anybody with that attitude and you make it harder to teach. The organized religions are basically real estate; you pay money to what will then be used to build another church, temple, etc.
LuneyTune72 1 month ago
Jon Meacham is a bad-ass. That is all.
kelvinscreations 1 month ago
simple, if church turns on fire, fireman don't get to help you
lifemetall 1 month ago
@lifemetall i would "like" your comment, but it appears the vote up/down option has been disabled.
trashbash2001 1 month ago
No taxing churches that breaks the first amendment. Wow it amazes me how athiest say thiest but they should look at their selves.
gigaboy47 2 months ago
@gigaboy47
Actually by offering tax-exempt and then granting special sanction, the current system quite blatantly shows favoritism and bias, punishing, comparatively, less well established or newer religions, picking and choosing what gets this advantage.
Also, freedom doesn't mean special perks beyond the normal citizen.
Taxing churches would mean equality of religion, which is in support of the first amendment, not against it.
Ryakki 1 month ago
@Ryakki no see by taxing church your breaking the amendment against religion by taxing "churches your letting the government chose which religion is right. That is wrong america is a place where people should have there own believes.
gigaboy47 1 month ago
Tax the shit out of churches. Make it less attractive to be ChristoNazi assholes!
Most Christians are agnostics anyway. They don't eat the shit they serve up.
Chelsea4President 2 months ago
@Chelsea4President YOU are the nazi, dumbass. You want excise taxes on the church because you hate religion. Stop being such an anti-theist and leave people alone, after all that is the 1st Amendment. Separation of church and state doesn't mean DESTRUCTION of the church by the state, but of course you stupid leftists conveniently ignore that.
1337wafflezz 1 month ago
As long as churches and religion stay away from politics and don't harm anyone, they can do whatever they want. As soon as they try to impose their lifestyle on the people by using politics and "morals" to implement laws that serve them, intelligent people have to step up.
Jonathanizer 2 months ago
I'm perplexed why Ashton is on this show..
thehumblepacifican 2 months ago
Why is Ashton there? How is it that just because someone is famous, we are suppose to listen to them like they are wise? No.
repzero 2 months ago
@repzero It's not a speech, it's a debate.
fingerboy18 2 months ago
The Catholic church is the wealthiest non-profit organization in the world..
Why don't we use that money to fund science and education, considering half the world is starving, has aids, is underdeveloped, or believes in a crazy man in the sky.
LOGICandREAS0N 2 months ago
Churches should pay taxes. If they spend so much on their fancy buildings, political campaigns, and hush $ for children raped by priests, why shouldn't they?
ThePhantom135 2 months ago
Great point.
jsscm02 3 months ago
The Mormon church should definitely not be tax exempt.
It is a cult made up by the charlatan Joseph Smith which receives billions every year from the "tithing" by members equal to 10% of their income.
TheSnoopy1750 3 months ago
@TheSnoopy1750 Every church is a cult. Catholics are a cult, according to Jews. Protestants are a cult, according to Caholics. Muslims are a cult, according to white America. Your point is moot.
AtheistDaddy 2 months ago
Comment removed
TheSnoopy1750 2 months ago
@AtheistDaddy Not sure if the Catholic church is a cult per se, even if you consider yourself to be an atheist.
I think the people who established the Catholic Church really believed Jesus was the son of God.
In contrast, Joseph Smith was a charlatan who fabricated the Book of Mormon in order to benefit personally - he can marry many young girls, gets 10% of members' incomes and can't be questioned as he was a "prophet" and can refer to the BoM which was 100% "true" as it's directly from God.
TheSnoopy1750 2 months ago
@TheSnoopy1750 cults and religions only really differ by size and amount of time its been around. Look at Scientology, the tenets arent really any crazier than Christianity, but its so new and has few members so its a cult. If scientology is around in 500 years it will just be seen as another religion. Religions help unintelligent people cope with the world around them, and it doesnt look like unintelligent people are going to stop breeding
MrKGatl 2 months ago
@MrKGatl I differ somewhat on your differentiation between cults and religion.
I really think the people who started Christianitt, for example, really believed Jesus was the son of God.
On the other hand, Hubbard (science fiction writer) completely made up Scientology.
Same with Joseph Smith, who was arrested as a con man before he made up Mormonism. The LDS cult allowed him to benefit personally - marry many women, control people as a "prophet" and take 10% of incomes (tithings).
TheSnoopy1750 2 months ago
@TheSnoopy1750
The distinction you make is false. Christianity was founded when nearly everyone had no way to gain accurate scientific knowledge, such that superstition etc. was rife. Scientology was founded when everyone had a way to gain scientific knowledge, such that superstition was readily discredited. If Christianity were founded today, it would be treated in the same way as Scientology. In effect, blind belief stems from ignorance of the world.
kate5845y 2 months ago
@kate5845y False - back in 1830, nobody could prove that the Book of Mormon was a fraud.
Now DNA has proven the BoM is a fraud as Indians are NOT a tribe of Israel, but are of Asian ancestry.
Furthermore, we know man originated in Africa so Smith's claim that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri is now known to be false.
We can't prove Jesus didn't turn water into wine etc. but we know Joseph Smith was a lying charlatan who started a fraudulent CULT to personally benefit.
TheSnoopy1750 2 months ago
@TheSnoopy1750
Uh... you're proving my point?
kate5845y 2 months ago
@kate5845y Also, even the Smithsonian has stated that there is no collaboration of archeology that is consistent with the Book of Mormon. Not that it's needed, as DNA is the most accurate scientific way to prove the BoM is a fraud.
Just google:
Smithsonian book of Mormon statement
The godandscience () org google result even has a copy of the letter.
TheSnoopy1750 2 months ago
@MrKGatl Also, Scientology is a proven fraud - the universe is only 13.7B yrs old while Hubbard credits Thetans with creating the universe trillions of yrs ago.
Mormons say the American Indians are a lost tribe of Israel that came to America in 600BC. DNA tests have proven this false with proof that Indians are actually of Asian ancestry, with zero proof of any Israeli ancestry. Furthermore, Mormons say the Garden of Eden was in Missouri when science says man originated in Africa.
TheSnoopy1750 2 months ago
@TheSnoopy1750 Yes Scientology is crazy, but so is believing in talking snakes and virgins getting pregnant.
MrKGatl 2 months ago
@AtheistDaddy I have never heard any Jew call the Catholics a cult, nor heard Catholics calling Protestants or even Muslims a cult.
Most rational people, regardless of religion, can come to the conclusion that Mormonism is not even a religion, but rather a fraudulent weirdo cult started by the con man Joseph Smith.
TheSnoopy1750 2 months ago
@AtheistDaddy no it isn't, his point stands, they are all cults, they should all pay taxes
parkerthehicks 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Variation in divorce rates by religion: Jews 30%, Born-again Christians 27%, Other Christians 24%,Atheists/ Agnostics 21%.
Area: South 27%, Midwest 27%,West 26%, Northeast 19%.
Biggest internet-porno fans are those living in Bible Belt.
Best sex: High IQ liberal left-wing people (probably Atheists/ Agnostics).
Worst sex: Republican White Bible Belt Christians (pretty horrible life there).
bandwagon22 3 months ago
Why does anyone care what ashton says? He's an actor!
MrCorkydork 3 months ago
@MrCorkydork He is also a businessman that has made about 150 million. This means he is qualified to talk about money.
Jamielde 3 months ago
@Jamielde You make a good point about money. But he has no education in politics so I don't care what he has to say about it
MrCorkydork 3 months ago
@MrCorkydork Thanks. Why does one need an education in politics?
Jamielde 3 months ago
@Jamielde Because it is a very complicated subject that a lot of people do not understand thoroughly. I am not claiming that I do, I am just saying that when it comes to politics I would rather listen to someone trained and knows what they are talking about. Not an actor.
MrCorkydork 3 months ago
So wait Ashton, you think religion should be kept out of government. Doesn't that mean exempted from taxes?
clwgirl510 4 months ago
@clwgirl510 Video game's have nothing to do with government. Yet we tax them. By your logic why should we tax anything? After all I am not part of the government why am I getting taxed? You also have to dig deeper, they get a lot of tax's cuts but still use such things like, the police and fire department.
Seakkon 3 months ago
@Seakkon well said!
Jamielde 3 months ago
@Seakkon That's a state tax, not federal tax. The federal government funds all things that go against Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc beliefs. That would interfer with Freedom of Religion. Now I would agree that if the police or fire department has to service a church, they should be paid by the church, SEPERATELY.
clwgirl510 3 months ago
@clwgirl510 Last time I checked, state government is still government. After all churches still don't pay state tax either. They are 100% tax free. Yet they still get help and breaks and all this other funds from goverment. They should be tax, and thinking they shouldn't is just down right dumb.
Seakkon 3 months ago
@satinISsexy Finally, if you didn't understand my point, being a relgious organization shouldn't warrant tax-free status. The original point of the tax free status was to enforce separation of church and state, and provide tax breaks for charitable giving.
If the religious leader in question doesn't truly believe in a religion and just uses the title for tax fraud and manipulating others for personal income (and you can prove it), they should have their tax-free status revoked.
Dmanbradley 4 months ago
@satinISsexy What do you mean comes out of everybody's birthday card? It's a personal donation to the receiver on their birthday. And if I like my next friend as much I'll give them the same in their birthday card.
Again, churches run on donations and perform a charity, so like other charities they don't pay taxes. Whether they receive large or small amounts as long as it's charitable giving it's still tax-free. Charity isn't a "deal", it's voluntary giving so ur not supposed to get anything
Dmanbradley 4 months ago
I think the Jehovah's witnesses pay taxes...
teflonfanatic 4 months ago
The mega-churches of today are nothing more than multi-BILLION $ corporations. And like most American corporations (who finance right-wing political candidates) they don't pay taxes. TAX EVERYONE EVERY WHERE!
thedrake1954 4 months ago
Regarding "selling an invisible product" ...
There are motivational speakers who sell intangible things like hope, determination, and happiness. They have to pay taxes on income earned and real estate held. How are churches different?
rmcdaniel423 4 months ago
Kelso wow, I can't believe how good his knowledge on the political spectrum.
Frankcastle522 4 months ago
Tax the bastards. I live in Florida and there are churches everywhere. Typically you see a house being built first (for the preacher) and later the church is built. Every but of the land and house are tax free. Its bullshit, they use water sewer, garbage and roads. They should at least pay something. Taxes are paid on vacant land for christ sake/
baxtar1963 5 months ago
Jesus paid taxes.
J5MARLON 5 months ago
@J5MARLON Y'know what ....on study of the bible I'm sure that would turn out to be the case. ....it'll be touched on somewhere.
temporaldisplacement 5 months ago
@temporaldisplacement Matthew 17:27 >>But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours
J5MARLON 5 months ago
@J5MARLON If I could like your comment ...I would.
temporaldisplacement 5 months ago
@J5MARLON Of all the Bible quotes I've had thrust in my general direction, I wonder why noone ever thrust that one............/approve
davidsfriend01 5 months ago
@J5MARLON yes, but did he ever say the the temple should ?
ned262626 4 weeks ago
@ned262626 When somebody asked should they support Sinful Rome. Jesus give what is to Ceaser, Ceaser and give to God, God. I think its more cultural issue that America doesn't tax temples.
J5MARLON 4 weeks ago
If evangelical Christians and churches want to give $5,000,000,000 to Israel every year, they can do it. I don't want the federal government conscripting me into it through taxes. I can't afford it!
RATIONALMIND001 6 months ago
I think Ashton Kutcher got punked on brians
Beatnick79 6 months ago
Churches are responsible for the inquisition, and churches are responsible for Jonesville and the coolaid. Yes and churches are responsible for holding humanity back saying the world is only 6,000 years old and a snake talked to eve. If you believe that though, please let me talk you in to a land deal I have in the swamplands of Florida. Only one million down and you can believe what you like.
onebaud 6 months ago
Churches are required to open their books to be audited every year like all non-profit corporations do. Any "profits" the church has any given year are put back into the ministry and work of the church. I am sorry that so many good people out there have such a negative view of the church.
postmodernman07043 7 months ago
@postmodernman07043 You are wrong. Churches (religious organizations) are NOT required to open their books to the public. Religious organizations do not fall under the catagory of Non-Profit. They are considered corporations, not charitiable organizations. NOW, some Churches may open their books to their parish, BUT they are NOT required to open their books for public inquiry.
And considering some Churchs actually own "for profit" business, they are still counted as tax exempt.
bluntman1138 6 months ago
@bluntman1138 Thank you for your comments. You are correct that churches do not have to open their books to the public. I was not clear in my last comments about that. Unfortunately, there are far too many churches who own "for profit" businesses and charge rent for outside groups to use their facilities. They are jeopardizing their tax-exempt status by doing so. This is very disturbing because it reflects badly on all churches who are following the rules.
postmodernman07043 6 months ago
@postmodernman07043
"I am sorry that so many good people out there have such a negative view of the church."
"This is very disturbing because it reflects badly on all churches who are following the rules."
Whose fault is it and how would you correct this problem?
As you can see, "Follow the rules, if you want to." is not working is it?
allgoo19 5 months ago
@allgoo19 "Follow the rules, if you want to" does NOT work whether it is a church, synagogue, a mosque, a for-profit business, a government entity or your own life. It doesn't work. Take responsibility for your own life, the good and the bad stuff together. And help others around you take responsibility for their own lives, then I believe we will have a chance to make the world a better place to live in.
postmodernman07043 5 months ago
@postmodernman07043 "then I believe we will have a chance.."
Believing alone is not going to make anything better.
What is your plan to make it work without strict rules and penalty?
allgoo19 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@postmodernman07043
What is your plan to make it work without strict rules and penalty?
No answer?
allgoo19 5 months ago
I agree w/ demmmmm1, they all should be required to open their books like every other non-prof if they expect tax exempt status. Why should it be automatic because they call themselves a church? Not only is it bullshit it's unconstitutional.
Notecrusher 7 months ago
Churches should have to do what ever 501 (c)(3) does. They have to prove that their service is worthy of non-profit status, and they have to put their profits back into their programming, and they have to have their financial books open for all to see.
If a church is using most of its income to feed the homeless, great. If they’re buying a 10,000 gold-leafed church on the ocean, taxes are in order.
demmmmm1 7 months ago
I beleive that churches should pay taxes, they are selling a service by accepting numerous "tips" from their followers. Healthcare professionals offer more and better help to the general people than churches do, and they still pay taxes. Why do churches have a privilige when we know they offer a service and get paid for it? The difference is that people are fanatics and blind to see reality!
liza2000us2001 7 months ago
@liza2000us2001 Because real churches don't charge people for prayers like doctors. Some are money-makers, but most churches are small and run on non-mandatory donations that go into just keeping the building where people in the community can meet. What's left "should" go back into the community in the form of food banks and the like. Churches are community charities in most cases, or at least they're supposed to be. It's not supposed to be a business even if the corrupt turn it into one.
Dmanbradley 6 months ago
@Dmanbradley which is what Ashton was touching on. Churches that are just selling books, and CD's then investing all that money into luxuries for the building and huge pastor salaries aren't a charity so they should be taxed on those donations as they are treating them like a business would. But churches in general shouldn't be taxed for only receiving donations. Most only put 1-5 dollars in offering, taxing that is like taxing the 5 to 20 bucks I get in my birthday cards.
Dmanbradley 6 months ago
I agree, churches should be required to pay income tax - they are businesses for the most part and nothing more.
ews773 8 months ago
Church sells a service...they are a business. Now if they all were truly philanthropic, they would manage their budgets like a govt run, or non-profit agency, however they do not. These organizationa make money and there is no denying it. Just do a search for "Mega Church" in google to see the multi-million dollar churches and then consider how much in taxes they didn't pay.
dallased25 8 months ago
I know churches and synagogues DO pay payroll taxes for their employees. They also pay social security taxes for all employees.
postmodernman07043 8 months ago
@postmodernman07043 That's not enough.
asmodeusambrose 7 months ago
@asmodeusambrose That's not enough? The churches I have been a part of rely solely on donations from those who feel led to give to the ministry that particular church does. Most other non-profit corporations receive some aid from the local, state or federal government. My churches carry out annual audits of their books to ensure no inproprieties. Also, churches do not receive any financial aid or real dollars from any government body (separation of church and state.)
postmodernman07043 7 months ago
Churches and synagogues provide philanthropic benefits to any community. Their mission is to enhance the life of the community, meeting people at their point of need. Granted, they may not do this well all the time, but neither do government services and other non-profit institutions. It's easier to tax everyone than to actually get involved in your community to improve the lives of others.
postmodernman07043 8 months ago
I had to watch kutcher's part twice, because the first time I just couldent take him siriously. To me he was still the dumbass from that 70's show :P
ThePopsheep 8 months ago
TAX THE CHURCH!!!!
djwaglmuffin 8 months ago
we should tax churches. They are so special because they tell fairy tales? We need the revenue lets tax all religious institutions.
TheCaliCapitalist 9 months ago
LOVE the invisible product comment hahaha
Cmdelorenzo27 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
macroevolve said "As long as the country wants seperation of church and state, churches do not have to pay taxes"
Say what??? Churches are exempt from taxation because they are supposedly non-profit organizations. Separation of church and state prohibits churches from assuming a role in governance. The two have nothing to do with each other whatsoever.
Notecrusher 9 months ago
oh I see that Ashton knows big words...guess he got a word of the day calender
bafeet 9 months ago
The avg. church in my city has about 10-15 acres of land & they also have a house afew hundred ft. away from the church which the priest/child molester live in, & dodge paying taxes on the home,vehicle(s),& of course 10-15 acres of land, talk about freeloader's
ADAM76MCT 9 months ago
TAX EM!!! TAX EM!!! TAX EM!!!
atlantasbest 10 months ago
churches are buniesses. bullshit is a product!
LIBERALTSUNAMI 10 months ago
@Hanniboom Having million dollar palaces for worship and sponsoring a soup kitchen on saturdays doesn't count as charity.
dovespin1 10 months ago
TAX THE CHURCH!! It's a multi-billion dollar industry that exploits the desperate! TAX THE CHURCH!
djwaglmuffin 10 months ago
Churches can get excemptions for charity donations just like people can so there's no need to not tax them. Pat Robertson should be paying GD taxes if I have to!
sinistar99 11 months ago
@sinistar99
Your taxes go to Pat Robertson.. what would be the point in taxing him?
SpeakingSerpent 10 months ago
"Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's."
RadarKat73080 11 months ago
@RadarKat73080 Caesar is dead and God shouldn't need anything so can I have their share of the spoils?
morganbath 11 months ago
@morganbath Most people mean the government.
RadarKat73080 11 months ago
Man Bill Maher really hates religion...... and he's a good man.
Wordlaw12 11 months ago
its ridiculous how many tax exemptions exist in the USA. And how few of them are for middle class and lower class. Come on guys! No wonder theres a debt when tax rates are the lowest in 40 years!
dchris1990 1 year ago
@dchris1990 - yeah, and people still think Obama is a socialist! It's insane.
adamG333 1 year ago
@dchris1990 Get used to it, because the people making our laws are either directly benefiting from those cuts or are in the pockets of the people who are.
Maphysto 11 months ago
Do mosque and synagogue need to do taxes?
SmoothCriminalAaron 1 year ago
How can you pay taxes when they want separation of church and state?
T3chyo 1 year ago
@T3chyo
by giving a tax exemption, government then has to come up with a legal definition of religion to determine who gets the exemption. Said defination could discriminate against some religions. It also enable instanced where claims of being religious/ a cult could be used to dodge taxes. Overall it is better to just tax everyone the same way, dodging the entire mess.
mrbananas8 1 year ago
@T3chyo The non-taxation of churches stems from The Church of England where church goers were required to pay a tax upon entry and those taxes went to the head of the church which was the ruling monarch.
ThreeCatsScratching 11 months ago
@T3chyo Excellent point. As long as the country wants seperation of church and state, churches do not have to pay taxes...
macroevolve 11 months ago
I have a question...do mosques have to pay taxes? or synagogues? or temples?...I am hindu and i go to a temple so I was just curious. If they don't then they all have to start paying taxes and if they do then this whole America is great because of the separation of church and state thing is bullshit...
sreshta1992 1 year ago
Comment removed
sreshta1992 1 year ago
It frustrates me so much that churches don't need to file 990's like every other nonprofit.
auward 1 year ago
@faithisfiction I agree 100%
Cullen592 1 year ago
no one should have to pay taxes for property.
islamiscrap8888 1 year ago
Churches should be taxed in the same way that we tax Walt Disney, Marvel Entertainment and other organisations which benefit from fairytales...
faithisfiction 1 year ago
@faithisfiction may i have your permission to quote you on that? =P
Darkenedbyshadows 1 year ago
Churches should pay taxes, they are very wealthy bases!
odessyrcr589 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
agree with bill, they are selling a product (an invisible one) they should be taxed. all these idiots that donate their hard earned money to try and buy their way into heaven (which won't they be bummed since there is none) so the church has hush money for the children they rape and their gold statues. u wanna pray u could just do it from home free of charge. like omg do u people not see the scam goin on here? u really can't be that dumb
22880jamie 1 year ago
agree with bill, they are selling a product (an invisible one) they should be taxed. all these idiots that donate their hard earned money to try and buy their way into heaven (which won't they be bummed since there is none) so the church has hush money for the children they rape and their gold statues. u wanna pray u could just do it from home free of charge. like omg do u people not see the scam goin on here? u really can't be that dumb
22880jamie 1 year ago
They shouldn't pay taxes, they should stop promoting their political agenda.
ahmedeox 1 year ago
Tax religions at the maximum rate.
max2right 1 year ago
The government can't make laws that interfere with religion, that includes laws on taxation. Also, churches are not restricted on free speech unless they apply for 501c3 status. In that case, they become limited as a corporation while receiving certain perks. But regardless of corporate status, they are tax exempt by the 1st Amendment.
chrlpolk 1 year ago
@chrlpolk
Sorry, but your 1st amend. argument doesn't hold water.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Taxing churches like any other business does neither. It doesn't promote the church and it doesn't hinder its religious exercise. Saying "You have to pay tax for your income" does not equal "You are prohibited from doing X and Y".
Please elaborate if you disagree.
Aaberg123 1 year ago
@Aaberg123 Taxing money that was tithed to the church in order to pay for secular government, rather than the purpose of the religion for which it was donated, is interfering with the exercise of religion. If people want to donate to the government, they are free to do so. But when they choose to donate to the church, they expect that the money will be used by and for the church. Taxing the employees of the church is a different story...
chrlpolk 1 year ago
What about freedom of speech? It's the same old story, accept something from the government and they "own you." Maybe churches should pay taxes and become free to say what they want -- but then the government would be free to "tax churches out of existence."
vechorik 1 year ago
Our founding fathers made it a point to seperate Church from State. Tax the Church, why should they be exempt?
boricuamm707 1 year ago
@boricuamm707
You're young and naive, Therefore I shall have to educate you.
Genesis 47:26 records Pharaoh exempting the priests’ land from taxation, and Ezra 7:14 indicates that none of the priests, Levites, singers, porters or ministers of the house of God were to be charged tax, toll or custom. Around 325 BC, Constantine ordered a tax edict, church buildings & the land surrounding them were exempt. Centuries later, European countries cont.d the tradition of exemption, albeit morally wrong.
Romansteel13 1 year ago
@Romansteel13 I dont care what the hell the Bible says, what does that have to do with our government?
Take your blinders off, Churches need to pay taxes.
boricuamm707 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@boricuamm707
" I dont care what the hell the Bible says, what does that have to do with our government?"
Most idiotic statement ever, You give a bad name to us Anti-theists.
Hello, fucktard. 90% of America's Congress are which religious denomination? CHRISTIANS, you idiotic fucking American. I'm not even American, you should be ashamed of yourself. You really prove the stereotype. Americans are dumber than mushrooms.
Romansteel13 1 year ago
@Romansteel13 so what if 90% of congress is religouse they still can't make dissisions on there religouse point of views
xSomethinginabox 1 year ago