Guitar Treble Bleed, Part 1: Evaluating Capacitors

[sixstringpsycho]

Say it ain't so! What happens if you solder one to a tone pot? Just curious.

[johnplanetz]

@sixstringpsycho - love that song :) A tone pot is typically wired in parallel with the guitar signal, as a capacitor in series with a variable resistor (pot) to ground. Adding a cap across the two lugs of the tone pot would give a path for the high frequencies directly to ground, thereby rolling off some treble, even when the tone cap is up full. See my videos on tone caps for more examples, and explanation of the circuit.

[rugbynut]

Really useful video dude, thanks! :)

[vikenemesh]

I'm doing this right now, thanks for the idea!

[vikenemesh]

@vikenemesh I'm done now. sounds great, thx!

[U2wild]

Great video I just bought a kramer 220FR with the volume bleed and you helped me figure out how to use it- thanx !

[johnplanetz]

@U2wild - Great to hear! Enjoy that new guitar!

[louie0108]

hi! i got my guitar's both tone knob and volume knob on 10, but it still sounds dull. i want to know what seems to be the problem with it?? any help would be appreciated thanks

[johnplanetz]

@louie0108 - see the other videos in my channel for ideas. You'll need to experiment a bit. I'd suggest unsoldering everything, and use alligator leads to connect it back up one component at a time. Connect one pickup directly to the jack and see how that sounds. Then add in your volume knob. Then the tone, etc.

[anesthetized8]

I don't understand how does it workes that you turn volume all way down and we still hear guitar...

[johnplanetz]

@anesthetized8 - i'm not turning it ALL the way down- ust most of the way down! And with the bleed cap, the high frequencies still pass through to the output, while everything else is quiet.

[delusgr]

This vid's great. First time I saw it was almost two years ago when I had absolutely no idea about electronics. Now after my first tube amp build it still is as interesting as it was then, maybe even more now that understand things better. Cudos, man.

[johnplanetz]

@delusgr - congrats on the amp build! I want to do that too some day :)

[littlegoobie]

this may be a bit too specific, but would this volume treble bleed work on guitars with active electronics? Jackson's. I've never liked how muffled it gets when the knobs aren't all maxed.

[johnplanetz]

@littlegoobie - guitars with active electronics should not suffer from the same loading effect of the volume control. Are you sure there isn't something else going on? But in any case, yes, in principal, a treble bleed cap will work on any volume control - since you're just giving the high frequencies a path through to the output, even when part of the signal is being shunted to ground. Give it a try and see what happens!

[littlegoobie]

@johnplanetz i'm not sure if there's something else going on. I've had this guitar about 20yrs now and it's been that way from the beginning. bought it new.  I like how it sounds with everything turned up so i don't mind, but once i turn back the volume to clean it up. the more i back off volume, the more it sounds like switching from bridge to neck. In any case, i'm going to try this to see how it goes. I need to replace all the pots soon anyways. thanks.

[ronnie9253]

so simple when explained by an expert; you're a life saver!

[johnplanetz]

@ronnie9253 - no problem. For more info on how caps work, you may want to also check out my video "Guitar Tone Capacitors, part 2: How Tone Works, Selecting a Value".

[ronnie9253]

Hi

and thanks for a great site/video. I bought two .022 caps for a treble-bleed circuit, for my SG. and 2 linear taper vol pots. I gave the guitar to my local guitar tech who fitted everything. He said the linear pots were misbehaving (no taper at all). He returned the guitar stating that he used log pots, but the problem persists. No volume reduction off the vol pots, just max or off? My bass player is a spark so could easily follow your advice –

Thanks

[johnplanetz]

@ronnie9253 - A .022uF (or 22,000pF) cap is way too big for treble bleed- it will essentially allow the entire signal to bleed back through, rendering your volume pot useless. The point of the bleed cap is to only allow the high frequencies to bleed through, so you'll need a much smaller capacitance (like 1000pF or less, as shown in this video). .022uF is commonly used for tone pots, but can't be used for treble bleed. Make sense? That guitar tech needs to learn some basic electronics!

[crosseyedwillie]

John, question...if you take a cap and put it across thge two lugs, does it have any effect with your volume wide open? (More or less wouild tyhis make your pickup say brighter then say if it wasn't there in the first place?)

[johnplanetz]

@crosseyedwillie - it should have no effect with the volume all the way up. there's a minimal-resistance path for the signal to the output, so none of the signal will pass through that cap. So, there will be no difference in brightness with the volume up.

[AcEIsMyClub]

i must say, it really helped me, but man, that epiphone sound really good with the volume turned down :|

[bushdid911forever]

Thank you so much for your videos, they are some of the most helpful guitar tech videos on the net! One question: on the G&L are you only using a capacitor? If you have a resistor in it what is its rating? I have a pretty bright strat that I want to do this mod to and I would like to try the configuration from your G&L First because it sounded so good =-). Thanks again!

[johnplanetz]

@bushdid911forever - the G&L just has a ceramic 200pf cap (201) on the master volume. No resistor. There's a closeup pic of the G&L electronics at my blog at planetz. Look for my post on Sept 29, 2009. (Sorry youtube won't let me post a link here).

[ermonski]

which is better for an Ibanez RG with an H-H config, treble bleed or 50s wiring?

[nyaumau]

this is a very useful review, thanks!

[SlaughteredDecay]

Hi!

Could you explain what nominal voltage is? 'Cause I've found a capacitor with the values of: 39 pF and the nominal voltage of 100 VDC. Could I use it in a humbucker-eqiupped guitar? Btw it is ceramic.

[johnplanetz]

@SlaughteredDecay - guitar pickups are operating in the millivolt range, so you don't need to worry too much about the voltage rating of the caps. your 100vdc cap is fine. 39pF is a very tiny capacitance- it'll only bleed the highest highs- i'm not sure if you'll hear what you're hoping for there, but give it a try.

[Xen0r24]

wow epiphone...

[tsafanyoh]

heheh SAY IT AINT SO!!!! 

[guitarfan84]

hi John, I did the treble bleed with a 0.001 uf cap and a 150 K resistor on a 500K audio taper pot, soldered to the middle and hot lugs. However, as soon as I installed it, the audio taper disappeared. Am I doing anything wrong? Btw, am using Duncan Jazz and Custom pickups.

[johnplanetz]

@guitarfan84 - i'm guessing you soldered the resistor in parallel with the treble bleed cap, which will change the taper of the pot. If you solder the resistor in series with the cap, it shouldn't affect the taper.

[guitarfan84]

@johnplanetz Hi John, i did exactly as what you did in your second video installing the pots onto the caps. Wouldn't that run the caps in parallel to the pots? How might I solder it in series?

[johnplanetz]

@guitarfan84 - you said you added a 150k resistor. if you solder it in parallel with the cap (two resistor leads soldered to two cap leads), it will change the taper. (e.g. pot lug 1 to cap to pot lug 2, and also pot lug 1 to resistor to pot lug 2). if you solder the resistor in series with the cap, it won't affect the taper. (e.g. pot lug 1 to cap to resistor to pot lug 2).

[BlackAngusYoung]

Thanks for making these vids!

[hyde097]

@johnplanetz ok so im putting humbuckers in my stratocaster. i bought 3 new 500Kohm pots and a 3 way switch. what kind of capacitor would you recomend?

[johnplanetz]

@hyde097 - best would be to experiment a bit. ceramic caps are really cheap, and work ok for treble bleed - buy a few different values around .001uF (103) and experiment using alligator clip leads and pick the one you like. you may also find a small (~100k) resistor works well in series or parallel (try both) with the the cap.

[BUCAXXX]

@johnplanetz ...sorry, some corections about cap. value .001uF=102=1nF, I use without any resistor...like Gibson Les Paul, 2.2nF

[issofunky]

wow....that's ALL wrong......

first off...that amp is trashy.....essentially a re-marketed form of the DOD Digitech circuits from the 90's....I wouldn't PEE on those let along play through them.

that guitar is plywood...and the pickups are P100's not P90.

the treble bleed in that guitar is not really worth it...since the pickups sound flat and dull even at full volume...and with that much gain you can't really hear the true nature of the effect anyway.

wasted post

[johnplanetz]

@issofunky - not a particularly helpful comment. All archtops are made from pressed plywood. The pickups are P-90 single coils, not P-100 humbuckers. Yes the amp is cheap- but it's constant throughout this test, so any differences heard are from the caps, not the amp. (And the the VT amp modelling is taken directly from the acclaimed VOX Tonelab series, not Digitech). I agree that the stock pickups are rather dull, I ended up replacing them with VVG P-90's as I demo'd in my other videos.

[issofunky]

@johnplanetz BS! NOT all archtops are made with plywood.

MINE is a carved top : bookmatched spruce, hand carved (1942).

Granted they haven't been made that way since the 60's

but the difference in tone is astounding. Modeling is the BIGGEST pot of marketing trash the 80's gave us.

it just doesn't work, no microchip will EVER dulicate the tone of a point to point wired tweed and a jensen. I say BS to anyone who buys that trash.

[johnplanetz]

@issofunky - I'm glad you like your vintage hand-carved hollowbody - sounds sweet. I've never seen an ES style semi-hollowbody archtop that doesn't use pressed plywood, and I've played some amazing ones.

Yes, obviously my Vox VT30 modelling amp can't approach the beautiful sound I get out of my premium handwired AC15HW1, but the ltitle VT30 is a handy inexpensive amp to have around for practice, portability, song-learning, etc.

Please accept that not everyone's choices need to match yours!

[engima777]

Hey, I just got a Fender Standard Strat (MIM) a few weeks ago and I would like to equip it with a treble bleed circuit. What value of capacitance would be good for this guitar? (I am 99% sure that it has 250k pots since that's what most strats have).

[TheMadMusicMan]

Great mod, really helps you dial in a good tone. I have a Telecaster with two P-90 pickups and the Gibson style 2-Vol & 2-Tone knobs wiring. I have the capacitors going from the tone pot to the volume pot and it makes the controls so much more useable. From what I've heard, this is how the late 50's Les Paul "Bursts" were wired. It helps keep the treble there when you turn down the volume and also allows the tone controls to help you dial in a great tone/volume. Great work...

[stoob1969]

You look like a mad guitar/audiophile surgeon with all your guitar´s guts taken out. Nice

[jediangus13]

Treble bleeding, say it ain't so

[lanb16]

wich one did you chose for the G&L ASAT III? very useful videos btw... thanx for posting this and greetings form venezuela!

[orpheus06]

Thank you so much for posting your videos!

[distorteddreams]

These videos are simply brilliant, Im starting to understand more about my guitar than I ever thought possible! thank you for opening my eyes. I can now have a go at fixing some older guitars I own :)

[zrebeKDemitri]

Awesome sauce! I didn't know about this concept. You're my kind of guitar guru man. thanky

[orangehasrhymes]

I love your videos! They're really clear and informative! Keep 'em coming!

[Tehtog]

I installed a treble bleed cap on the strat i made and i regret it :P You do lose ethe usual tone change the volume gives. I know it's cleaner though so i don't remove it.

[HJubb]

nice pick guard :P

[arpeemac]

weezer!

[Sco22]

Hey, I'm trying to find a website to order a bunch of orange drops with different values but nobody seems to carry them at lower than 1000pf ... can you recommend a place to get them from 200-2000pf ?

[johnplanetz]

@Sco22 I just double checked the datasheets for the 715p and 225p orange drops, and they only go down to 1000pf (.001uF).

I bought all mine at mouser. Very good prices.

[brownbigb]

@johnplanetz i can't find orange drops at mouser.

[johnplanetz]

@brownbigb - just google "mouser orange drop" and you'll find em all. for example: part # 75-715P1600V0.022

[kgamino]

@Sco22 You can get most electronic components from online places like Mouser Electronics, JAMECO, NEWARK and others by Googling for the parts or sellers.

[juanypei]

for example, weezer

[ManAliive]

I've been looking into this mod for a while now. I also play a G&L ASAT Classic and after some searching, I came across the "50's Vintage Wiring Mod." Just do a google search for "Telecaster Mod Guide." It's on the Premier Guitar website. I would post a link, but youtube doesn't like links.

Just curious what your thoughts are between the 50's Wiring Mod and the Treble Bleed Cap Mod. Thanks! Love the videos.

[johnplanetz]

You'll get different results from both. You'll still get some treble loss with 50's wiring, and I think when you turn down the tone it'll change the taper of the volume pot a bit.

I'd recommend trying the treble bleed cap first - it's easy to just use alligator clips to connect up a cap to your master volume and see what you think. If you don't get what you want from the treble bleed cap, then try 50's wiring.

Good luck!

[brownbigb]

@johnplanetz the 50's wiring is way superior. it keeps the guitar sounding full and keeps the highs. with the treble bleed, you start rollonh off the lows as you roll back the volume. so it starts sounding thin. i tested both several times, no comparison.

[remayzlefou]

@brownbigb I modded my LP wiring it against 50's wiring schematics, i have to agree !

the volume pot is realy usable now without the need for a trebble bleed. at very low volumes, some highs are still lost, but its not dull as before. just a little warmer sounding.

[Hotwiredrummer]

John that is a smokin good video.. THANKS man for putting it out there for us all!! Really cool.

[MVLINEMAN]

Hey Bro can you help me out, how do you know when you have to change the Capacitor in ur guitar? Is there a certain capacitor u use for playing oldschool metal? thanks bro

[johnplanetz]

Assuming you're talking about the tone cap-- reasons to change it could be that it's broken, you don't like the amount of roll-off when turning the pot (too much/too little), or you want a different sound character. See my vids on tone cap materials and capacitance values - you might try getting a selection of caps to try, like I show in those vids.

As for metal, if you're after the sound used in a particular guitar, you might try finding the wiring diagram/parts list for that guitar.

[ronnie9253]

thanks for the in-depth and indispensable tutorial; before i rush out and but some caps, can you explain what voltage rating i need, caps have a wide range of voltage ratings.

[johnplanetz]

An electric guitar is extremely low voltage. These caps are typically all rated very high (like the 200v and 600v orange drops). It shouldn't have any effect on sound, so don't worry about it.

[erikmilan1987]

Hi john, i was thinking that would be a great idea to show a video of you wiring a Greasebucket tone circuit, this is a very usefull mod because it rolloff the high without adding bass to the signal thus preveting the guitar of getting muddy, actually is a very easy to do mod and you can get resources from the fender site by viewing the wiring diagrams of the Highway one Strats and Tele's.

[johnplanetz]

Interesting. I haven't tried that mod before. I'll put it on the list of things to do some day :)

[gamingz]

wow thanks for taking the time to make these videos. it helps alot :)

[erikmilan1987]

Hi John... i found some ceramic caps in my house but i dont know if they are recomendable for a strat that its bright sounding... Here are some of the readings on them 680, 0.05, 780... i dont know if they are pF, uF or whatever.

Another thing i whanted to know is the reason why some ppl uses a resistor paired in parallel with the cap on the treble bleed system.

[johnplanetz]

See my video "Tone Caps, part 2" - where I explain how to the 3-digit cap value codes (for newer caps). Older caps (like pre-1970s) are inconsistently labelled.

680 is 68pF. Too small.

.05 is probably .05uF (probably really .047uF). Too big for treble bleed. Ok for tone.

780 doesn't sound like a typical cap value code. That maybe a part # or something.

When in doubt, use a capacitance meter.

Ceramic is fine for treble bleed. The one I settled on here is a 102 (1000pF).

[johnplanetz]

As for using a resistor in treble bleed, it allows some of the lows to bleed through as well. Can be useful if the bleed cap is making the soundtoo bright and thin as you turn down. I generally don't use em, but it's personal preference.

Also, if you put the resistor in parallel with the cap, it will change the taper of the pot.  Put it in series if you don't want that.

[Uncrvd]

Ahh yes sorry my bad, thanks for the explanation! I had misunderstood what was happening with the 100pF cap but I get it now, thanks :-)

[Uncrvd]

Nice video, though wouldn't the cable would have higher capacitance than 100pF if it was longer than 1m? So not a fair comparison between the 100pF and 1000pF!

[johnplanetz]

Yes, there is significant cord capacitance. However, I'm not changing the cord or wiring between tests here. The only thing I'm changing is the cap.

So with all else unchanging, any difference you hear is caused by the change in the treble bleed cap.

[Uncrvd]

Yep but with the 100pF cap there is no difference between the cap on or off, because of the cable capacitance. But maybe a 500pF (or whatever value below 1000) could still have had a noticable difference I meant. Just curious about what the brightest low volume sound would sound like!

[johnplanetz]

I don't think that's correct. There's two different filters to consider here - the treble bleed highpass, and the overall circuit lowpass.

The measured capacitance of my alligator leads is < 10pF, so they only marginally affect the capacitance of the cutoff frequency of the treble bleed's highpass filter (wired between two signal lugs of a volume pot, not to ground).

[johnplanetz]

On the other hand, the long guitar cable's capacitance (between signal and ground) is in the hundreds of pF. Along with the volume and tone pot resistance, this capacitance loads the pickups and determines the resonance and cutoff frequency of a lowpass filter. But it's not really affecting the treble bleed highpass (except that there is an overall rolloff in high frequencies because of this load-- and maybe that was your point?). I may be getting this all wrong - it's complicated stuff! :)

[gogothegogo]

Great videos. Thanks for the effort!

[DAZOID55]

Nice video, John. I've been an engineer for the past 30 years and can offer a comment about the types of caps to use in a tone bleed circuit. Almost any cap dielectric type in the 1000pF range would work equally well: NPO ceramic, polyester, silver-mica or polystyrene. All of these dielectrics have very low voltage coefficients and good stability over time and temperature (don't overheat when soldering though). Stick with modern components...avoid using old junkbox parts like waxpaper-foil caps!

[ElDopa420]

Superb video John ! Thanks for taking the time to make the video. I'll be checking out your other stuff too. I always assumed the treble bleed cap wouldn't make a big difference but I see that it actually is what I need to add on several of my guitars. Thanks bro' !

[damienl]

Awesome video man, I can imagine what a pain it was to get everything together and put this together but it's really appreciated!

[pyr0911]

fantastic video! Really really helpful, although I wish you had tested some paper in oil capacitors.

[johnplanetz]

Thanks! I'll be testing some PIO's and a few others when I do my video on selecting a tone cap. Stay tuned... :)

[pyr0911]

Will do! I don't suppose there is a picture of how you attached the alligator clamps to the pots somewhere?

[johnplanetz]

Take a look at part 2 of this video, where I show how to identify which two lugs of the volume pot to use when soldering the cap leads. Those are the same two lugs you'd use for your alligator clips. You're just using the alligators to extend the two leads of the cap. Make sense?

Let me know if it's still unclear and I'll put some new pics on my blog.

[nickfromdtown1992]

WEEZER!!! =]

[johnplanetz]

love that song! :)

[kerbeg000]

nicely done

[ronnie9253]

pretty damn comprehensive. Indispensible. I guess if I can't sort out my les paul after this, i've no excuse. 10/10

[HAIKELzambri]

wowowowowowow!!

i heard of the word treble bleed but idk what it means... now i want one for all my guitars!!!

[slapnutz777]

Wow, thanks man. My local luthier was pimping me this setup. Now that I've heard it, I'm diffinately going to get it done. This is a perfect example of youtube users providing exactly the info others are looking for. Great job buddy. I sure hope this gets many more views from fellow guitarist who were oblivious to this mod previously. Rock on!

[useme2305]

very good!