My goodness, I really do hope and pray that all these folk writing here in what appears to me to be a pretty ungracious manner have the humility and grace to simply share Christ's love to men and women wherever they may find themselves, if you the author have time as a pastor to spend all this time on such things you must have time on your hands. No wonder the world laughs at or despises the modern church. I write this with great sorrow.
Calvinists do not believe God loves all men and women. It gives me great sorrow to see that the church (such as yourself) sees no need to stand for what is right. I suspect you must also believe the apostle Paul had a lot of free time on his hands and believe his Christian life was a waste for writing all those correction letters. It is hypocrisy to make such a comment as we should be loving and then set to do your bitter correction in your comment.
Your comments thus far are mean and bitter. As I said you are being a hypocrite. If you want to discuss Calvinism then you are welcome to comment. It if you just want to attack my spirit, character and ministry then if that is the love you espouse you are just bitter about the accurate logical conclusions of the videos. The Calvinists who have been posting on my videos are the mean spirited ones for the most part, like yourself.
God created everything, including sin. He says in Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."
Who cares what Calvinists say? The Bible teaches that God does everything and logic tells us that if God knows everything then He created most people for Hell and some for Heaven. If not, why create Hell or Heaven? Adam was created to sin; that's why the Tree was there.
@tolar9 (if God knows everything then He created most people for Hell and some for Heaven.)
You quoted Isaiah 45:7. If Jesus is the exact expression of who God is in the flesh, then place Jesus, as seen in the Gospels, in that scripture and show me how Jesus is the direct fulfillment of of Isaiah 45:7. Remember that Jesus said that He was the fulfillment of the Law & the Prophets.
---Colossians 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,---
@AllForYeshua Easy: "Jesus formed the light, and created darkness: Jesus makes peace, and creates evil: Jesus the LORD does all these things."
Jesus was God made flesh as promised in the Law & the Prophets--the shadow of His reality (Col 2:17).
Only those God chooses to can understand His Word as per Isaiah 6:9-10 (see Luke 8:10, Matt 13:10-16, Mar 4:9-12; see also Deut 29:4). Understanding & belief (faith) are the gift of God.
I very clearly said, "as seen in the Gospels", but if that is still too difficult for you to understand, let me make that clearer & more simple for you. Within the context of all that Jesus did and said durting his 33 years of flesh life on this earth, show me through those "Gospels", with scriptural reference, how Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 45:7. Those who understand His word, should find that question rather easy. Give it another try, if you really know Jesus.
@AllForYeshua Increasing ur condescension won't increase ur comprehension. Let me simplify it for u: Jesus fulfilled the OT bodily. He is God. The OT is all about Him taking human form & bringing the knowledge of Himself to the Gentiles. Ur irrelevant & absurd request just deflects the point I was making with Isaiah 45:7. Here it is again: God created everything, including evil, for His own purposes. Now, either refute this or my other comments or ask for clarification; it's how dialogue works.
@tolar9 (The OT is all about Him taking human form & bringing the knowledge of Himself to the Gentiles.)
Before you make a statement about what God did or didn't do, within the expressed image of His Son Jesus as He walked on this earth as man, as revealed through the Gospels, prove yourself with the scriptures found within the Gospels, as Jesus clarified His fulfillment of those scriptures. You made the statement about Isaiah 45:7. Now prove it without beating around the bush.
@AllForYeshua It is you who is beating around the bush. Reread my comment. I didn't even mention Jesus and the Gospels--you did when you tried to get me to prove a point I didn't make re:Isa 45:7. For the final time: My point about Isaiah 45:7 was SIMPLY and ONLY that God created everything including evil. There is nothing to prove; the verse states the fact that God said He created Evil. If you want me to prove some other point I made, then you will have to restate what it is sans Isa 45:7.
@tolar9 (The Bible teaches that God does everything and logic tells us that if God knows everything then He created most people for Hell and some for Heaven.)
You wrote this after quoting Isaiah 45:7. Because Jesus in the flesh is the expressed image of God's Word, including Isaiah 45:7, revealing in Himself God's character & attributes because He is God in the flesh, show me with scripture from the Gospels, the character of Jesus that lines up with what your wrote about His character.
@AllForYeshua Pt 1 of 2: You are a maddeningly inept interrogator! I made several separate assertions. The first one was: God created everything, including sin. I cited Isa 45:7 as partial proof of that. Are you saying that it is untrue because the Gospels don't describe Christ exhibiting the power to create evil? Or are you saying that Jesus isn't God; that He isn't JHWH of the OT in the flesh? Or are you saying that God's character changed when He took on human form?
@AllForYeshua Pt 2 of 2: Or are you simply asking me to prove my assertion that logic tells us God created most people for Hell using Gospel verses as proof? If the latter, then I refer you to Matt 7:14, 24:14 to show only few find salvation. That God creates everyone and that people either end up in Heaven or Hell are both, I should imagine, accepted facts. Therefore, logically, if a only a few are made for Heaven, then most are made for Hell.
@tolar9 (If the latter, then I refer you to Matt 7:14, 24:14 to show only few find salvation.)
Because scripture is only complete when taken holistically, not by a mere one scripture here or one scripture there, to reach your conclusion, you must add to scripture between the lines, just as you did. You are trying to separate the inspired & written word of God from the Jesus who walked this earth as the word's exact representation & fulfillment. That's falsifying God's character. Shame on you.
@tolar9 (Therefore, logically, if a only a few are made for Heaven, then most are made for Hell.)
I am begining to see that you don't believe that Jesus is the word become flesh by your statements, such as that noted above. If you can conclude that Jesus' walk on this earth, His sacrifice on the cross, and His resurrection accomplished that to which your have given Him credit for above, that that is the "Good News" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you know not His character.
@AllForYeshua Just can't stay focused, can you. Y'know, you would've saved a lot of time if you just got that drivel off your chest in the first place. You had that little idea in your nut from the start and just couldn't shift it long enough to actually read what I wrote.
And what's with the fake Bible-speak? "...you know not His character..." Forsooth!
@tolar9 [(...just couldn't shift it long enough to actually read what I wrote.: (you wrote: God created everything, INCLUDING EVIL, for His own purposes.)]
You speak of a Messiah(God) who is the author of both death/unrighteousness & life/righteousness. Jn 1:16
Isaiah 45 = Speaks on the accomplishments of the coming Messiah = Rom 7:13 = Heb 4:12 = Gen 1:3-5 = John 1:1-5 = John 1:14 = Col 2:9 = Gal 5:22-23 = Mat 22:1-8 = 1 John 2:2 = John 1:11-12
@AllForYeshua So, what's your point? Are you saying that God doesn't create evil? Isaiah 45:6-7 says, "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I FORM the light, and CREATE darkness: I make peace, and CREATE evil: I the LORD do all these things." What could be clearer? You're obviously so wedded to your fluffy Jesus, you have to contradict the Scriptures! YOU know not His character. (see Matt 10:28)
In case you missed this when you opened the WOG, the Lamb of God equals Jesus, who equals the WOG, which includes Isaiah 45, the prophesy of the coming Messiah. And yes, my Jesus, the one of scripture, is pure love(agape), as noted in 1 Cor 13. He puts an end to sin & evil, not a beginning. There's no hidden motive, "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
@AllForYeshua And who created the tree? The serpent? Hell? Sin? Who judges people and condemns them to Hell? "Agape" doesn't mean what you think it does.
And I noticed you never answer any the questions I asked you. You're not going to get anywhere near the true character of the Lord if you ignore His very words. He says, "I FORM the light, and CREATE darkness: I make peace, and CREATE evil: I the LORD do all these things." So, yes or no, do you believe these words?
@tolar9 (So, yes or no, do you believe these words?)
In the very clear expression of the Living Word, but not as you.
Rom 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
@AllForYeshua You are mistaking the Law, which was "written" by God, with God, who says He created evil. You can spin it all you want, but there is only one Creator.
@tolar9 ("Agape" doesn't mean what you think it does.)
It most certainly does. What you don't get is that all are dead in their sin, separated from God spiritually, before they come to Christ. God didn't cause that. Apparently, you don't see sin for what it is and think that Jesus needs to come and rekill what is already dead. Dead is dead. That is pretty elementry.
@AllForYeshua Agape is not synonymous with the English word "love"; the term "heart" in the Bible has nothing to do with feelings. You have been lied to by your preachers.
It's simple logic. God makes everyone. God knows who will go to Hell & who who goes to Heaven. Jesus teaches that only a few go to Heaven. Ergo, God makes most people to end up in Hell.
Btw, He gives belief (faith) to the ones He doesn't want to go to Hell.
@AllForYeshua No. YOU deal first with my comment first. The logic is clear. God makes every person. God knows where every person will end up before they are made. Jesus taught only a few (relative) are saved. Therefore when God makes most people they are being made to end up in Hell.
YOU are the one arguing, YOU are the one that must present YOUR evidence to the contrary.
@tolar9 (Therefore when God makes most people they are being made to end up in Hell.)
To conclude such, you would have to believe God a ever changing liar.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
@tolar9 (And who created the tree? The serpent? Hell? Sin?)
Faith in God's word is about believing what the word says & knowing that it can't change. Lack of faith is building a story around what isn't there, like claiming God authors evil & sin. He reveals it, but He doesn't author it.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and FOR EVER.
This scripture does not say that either. There are three Hebrew words here: form, create, and make. They are three different words and are placed in this order to make a very specific point. Don't be so quick to make it say something else. It is the affect of one that creates the other, such as the affect of the Law to reveal sin.
Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
@AllForYeshua The progenetor of everything is God. If He makes light, darkness is a concomitant result. This doesn't mean that darkness created itself. He created the "law" of duality! Spin away all you want; but everything begins with, from, by and for God. You simply dislike the idea that God kills, makes people do evil, inflicts pain, disease and deformity on people, makes them sin AND then condemns them to Hell for it, but that's too bad for you. God does EVERYTHING. He's GOD!
@tolar9 (If He makes light, darkness is a concomitant result.)
If God says, "Let there be Light", it's because there WAS no light. I suggest that you go back to Genesis 1, day #1, and review what were God's first words for that day of creation and then look at what was there before He said such. You might ask next, what happens when the light illuminates what is in darkness. Jesus shows us this as that very light in Genesis 1 that comes to the land of darkness.
If Jesus was in the beginning, as scripture tells us He was, that all things were created in and by Him, then Genesis 1 is about Jesus, the first word spoken by God, the light of the world, "Let there be Light", and the two can not be separated: Isaiah 9:2, Mat 4:16, & Luke 1:79. As scripture says, God gave us the created to reveal the invisible.
@AllForYeshua Your conclusion is incorrect because your reading is incorrect. Jesus is God, JHVH, the Creator, who is saying "let there be light on the world which I created first (the Heavens and the Earth) which has become (the Hebrew is "became", not "was") formless and void. Then He says "be light there"; Light already existed because He is Light. God is the only Uncreated One. Everything else came into existence by Him. That is not as difficult to understand as you're making it out to be.
@tolar9 (Jesus is God, JHVH, the Creator, who is saying "let there be light on the world which I created first (the Heavens and the Earth) which has become (the Hebrew is "became", not "was") formless and void.)
Yet you missed a very important thing. Jesus is God, in the flesh, as a man. In the spirit, He may have been the One who said, "Let there be Light", but in flesh & blood as a man, according to John 1, is that Light come into the world. The two events can't be separated as you've done.
@AllForYeshua I'll ask you one last time in these comments. If God didn't create evil, sin, Satan, disease, the Tree then who or what do you believe did? Who or what is this other creator you believe in?
Again, this is my last comment to you on this thread. I can't deal with your ignoring my questions and not dealing with the logic and reason in my statements before interjecting your own non sequiturs. Time to back up and establish first principles before proceeding.
If Jesus, God in flesh and blood, is the creator of evil, then no evil existed before Jesus walked this earth. He who is without sin & darkness has no hand in it's creation, but He certainly exposed it for what it was. The Bible isn't about who authors evil, but salvation through Christ Jesus for a people who were already dead as door nails. Jesus didn't make them that. What scripture isn't about, darkness, isn't knowledge desired for those seeking the Lord.
@tolar9 (and not dealing with the logic and reason in my statements before interjecting your own non sequiturs.)
The problem exist that there is no reason & logic in your statement from the get-go. If all God created was good, as scripture clearly tells us it is, then Gen 1:2 was present before God said, "Let there be Light." Your believe of otherwise contradicts itself, which is always an interpreter error.
@tolar9 We can discuss this here or on my site, it doesn't matter to me. However, we will never find common ground as long as you are unable to see Jesus, as He walked this earth for 33 years, as the exact & complete image of the Father in the flesh. Jesus, in the flesh, lacked nothing in His revealing of the living word of God from Genesis through Malachi. Jesus wasn't a read between the lines type of guy. Looking at His life & walk is looking at the Father. Did Jesus create or expose evil?
@AllForYeshua Colossians 1:16-17 says "For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Kinda says it all, doesn't it? But no, you think there's some other Creator out there. How naive can you get!
@tolar9 (You quoted: Colossians 1:16-17 and said, Kinda says it all, doesn't it?)
The answer is of course. However, you might look up the Greek word for created in that scripture. It comes from the root word meaning to aquire or to marry. The Greek word is ktizō, meaning to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island: to found a city, colony, state. That's exactly what agape(God's love) came to accomplish.
(But no, you think there's some other Creator out there.)
@AllForYeshua You are severely logic-challenged. Evil exists. You say God didn't create it. Therefore YOU are saying there is another Creator, not I.
As for κτίζω, it is the same base word for κτίσμα "creature"; as in "EVERY CREATURE" to whom the Apostles were to preach. And for κτίσις "CREATION" when God made them male and female (see Mark 10:6). Clearly κτίζω is referring to the process of Divine creation, however limited (like "love") the English word is.
@tolar9 (You are severely logic-challenged. Evil exists. You say God didn't create it.)
Let me ask you two simple questions: if evil has a beginning and an end, associated with time, where do you think the souls of those who reject Christ go when time ends? Scripture says that Satan has an end and it is near. Do you think that he is simply non-existent after that, as well as all those who scripture says are his?
@tolar9 (Here it is again: God created everything, including evil, for His own purposes.)
Is it that you believe that Jesus' fulfillment of OT scripture resides outside of God's word, that expressed word in the flesh? If Jesus, in the form of flesh and blood, is that word spoken in Isaiah 45:7, then it is very present within the context of the written Gospels. If you believe that Jesus is the word become flesh, then simply answer the question to the comment that you choose to make.
@AllForYeshua You have a very unclear way of expressing yourself. The only actual question in your comment has nothing to do with any of the points I made, nor the words of mine which you quoted, but instead tries to foist upon me a position in an entirely unrelated argument (Christ's fulfillment of the OT).
For the last time, please ask me a direct question, in plain English, without additional commentary, relevant to my point(s). Eg: "Tolar9, what makes you think God created evil?"
I'm always amazed how non- Calvinists butcher the beliefs of Calvinism to make it out like a cult from satan.
If you want to refute Calvinism - you better study it so you don't sound like an idiot to those who do understand how wrong you are (which you sound like in this video).
Another anonomyous youtube Calvinst. Why dont you actually form an argument response here. Not doing so in light of your false accusation here would make you sound???. Not studied Calvinism? Post and lets see.
You know Arminians are really no different than Calvinists. Both say God knows all future events, yet if God knows of those who will not believe and spend eternity in hell, then why would he create them. Arminians say they believe in freewill, yet how are humans truly free if God knows everything they will do, while Calvinists are nothing but fatalists. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians are consistent. Both sides point fingers at each other saying they are right when they both drop the ball.
@MrQuest4truth The Bible teaches that God created most people for Hell (damnation, Hades, whatever you want to call it) and some for Heaven (Eternal life, Salvation, the Kingdom, whatever). That's not "fatalism", it is Predestination. All that the Father has given to Christ (given, past tense) will be saved. Yes, God knows--knew before Creation--who's going to Hell and who's going to Heaven. Why? Because He wanted to. It's all "according to the good pleasure of His will". Eph 1:5. His; not ours.
James White is a LYING rascal. Calvinism is sickening. A real man of God today if there is one is Peter Ruckman. An elite Bible teacher, maybe the best alive today.
It is NOT inexplicable UNLESS you are a deluded follower of Van Til. The Bible is clear about God's decreeing ALL that comes to pass. He also foreknows the future be cause He has predestined it. God is the ULTIMATE cause of ALL things. Do you deny God knows the future. If so: He will LEARN things when they happen. If THAT is so, God will change and is NOT immutable.
What standard will be used to judge God IF God is the Supreme Being? What standard will we hold Him to? GOD RULES AS HE SEES FIT!
Well James White, John MacArthur, John Piper, ect say they dont understand Gods sovergnty and man responsability. I can provide the videos.
If God caused al things then He in Calvinism has authored evil and attributed evil to mankind unconditionally and irresistably, and man have not truly done evil acts as they have obeyed God perfectly in only doing what God has caused for them in advance.
So what you are saying then is you do not have a probem with my video.
During its earthly existence, the human being possesses a GOD-given right to free will. I suggest you consider and take responsibility for the exercise of your free will to tolerate, and engage in evil. STOP blaming GOD. STOP spreading your poison. And, if you can help it, STOP being as * asshole * your entire life. Else, you'll be going to hell, boy...mark my words...heh heh heh.
Oh and here is a freebie, Chapter 3 article one of the westmister confession of faith, the oldest and most trusted statement of calvinistic belief clearly states, that God is not the author of sin. This is also recorded in the 1689 London Baptist confession, another trusted calvinistic statement of faith.
The confession is in contradiction. So it is to be rejected. It cannot both be true that God decrees everything that comes to pass and also be true that He is not the author of evil. Did God decree the Bible to be written and therefore He is the author of it? So I claimed that God causally in Calvinism causes evil. And I calimed God in Calvinism knows causally. If God therefore in Calvinism knows causally, how did God not initiate sin and evil in man?
You offered only false claims so i have nothing to deal with. provide even one true claim that is not an emotional misrepresentation based upon what you think Calvinism is, and I will be happy to respond. You might want to start by reading to understand rather than reading to find your argument, as to any reasonable student of this issue could see, it is quite clear that you have an axe to grind and you are not about to let the facts get in your way.
This is flat out the most arrogant misrepresentation I have yet seen. This guy is make false assertion after false assertion then he tears down the false claims he has made as if they were a true representation of Calvinistic teaching. You should not attack what you do not understand. It is a flat out lie!
Talk about a false accusation. Demonstrate how I flat out lied. Explain the misrepresentaion and any false claim. Trust me I understand Calvinism, and will defend my position. These men are free to rebut my comments and so are you. Just begin. Also I can think of nothing more arrogant than what you just did in making an accusation without any rebuttal of your own.
I have raised this issue with Calvinists. Usually they just use ambiguous language to avoid answering it. On occasion they will blame Sin on Adam. The problem that arises is that they have just admitted that Adam's Free Choice coexisted alongside God's Sovereignty. The simple fact is that the Calvinists have only two options. God is the source of evil, or some being under God has free choice.
@ApologeticsBenJoiner I wasn't talking yet about the reason. I like you believe God decreed this evil act for a good purpose. That's what Calvinism teaches. Yet God is not the author of sin. I have no problem with God decreeing sin. I do have a problem with God commiting sin.
@October31st1517 what do you mean by decreeing sin? If He forces one to sin is He not committing it. God tempts no man. What mental gymnastics one must do to follow the murderous dictator!
@Ruddermanspeaks Your fallacy is you are equating DECREE with FORCE. God inclines our hearts so that we will want to recieve Him. The Psalmist says "The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want. He gives me the freewil to lay in green pastures?" No. "He MAKES us lay down in green pastures. That's how much God loves His people. God decrees ALL that comes to pass.
@October31st1517 well, what's the difference between "decree" and "force"? If you are saying that it is to "incline our hearts so that we will want to", what is your point? If God inclined Adam's heart, then in order for Adam to be guilty, then he it must have been required of Adam that he resist the inclinations of God upon his heart. otherwise Adam was innocent. Only a dark, depraved devil, like the vicious dictator, Calvin, would suggest such lunacy. how could you parrot this unholiness?
@Ruddermanspeaks So I give you scripture, and you give me nothing. You're comfortable with your God because it's a God that you created in your image.
@October31st1517 what do you mean you gave me scripture? You quoted a psalm and I tried to keep you on subject, which you keep trying not to be. Again i will ask you, what is the difference between "force" and "decree"? What is the difference between inclining a man's heart to sin and forcing him? How was Adam guilty if God forced or inclined him to sin? You are happy with your God because you don't feel like you are liable to be burnt forever and ever unfairly. you believe you are a special one
@Ruddermanspeaks "You are happy with your God because you don't feel like you are liable to be burnt forever and ever unfairly. you believe you are a special one" If that's what you believe Calvinism teaches than I am not one. To Force someone is to give them no choice. In Calvinism man does have a choice, but he will ALWAYS choose the wrong thing because of his nature. God created man with freewill, but when man fell, his will became enslaved. You detest the God of the bible. I deserve hell.
@October31st1517 once again you skillfully maneuver off the direct subject to something indirectly related. I wonder if this is how you have shielded yourself from the dark realities of your indoctrination. You accept the teachings of a murderous dictator as authority in your life. He taught you that Adam was decreed by a Holy God who hates sin to sin. what is the difference in decreeing and forcing when it comes to God? What is the difference between inclining and forcing when it comes to God?
@October31st1517 but now you believe that since you have had some kind of favorable response to the gospel, that this a sign that you are CERTAINLY one of His elect that he chose to force to be saved while he forced everyone else to sin and never offered or was ever willing to offer them a helping hand. you are sooo special that God even created the wicked (who he forced to be wicked) so that you could learn something about His wrath as he tortures them beyond description for ever and ever. sick
@Islandretreat you have obviously never did a study into Calvin in Geneva. What is distorted about my description of him? It should cause great pause to anyone, when the source of your belief system is a murderous tyrant. this is not a Christian man by any definition, and this is your Bible teacher whom you parrot everything his depraved mind conjures? Luther was another heretic that made hateful murderous statements against Jews. if you hate you are a murderer without eternal life 1John3:15
@Ruddermanspeaks, I wouldn't believe everything the Jesuits tell you. Roman Canon Law, Papal suppression of books, that's the reason for your one-sided, distorted view of history.
@Islandretreat well forget the several eye witness accounts of his character and deeds, i knew Calvin and Luther were heretics long before i learned of their egregious (even for pagans) behavior.
@Ruddermanspeaks, You knew nothing of the sort Sinner. Thou shallt not bear false witness. Quote from one of the many suppressed Protestant books: "the Sons of Loyola, while secretly teaching at the German Lutheran Tubingen University during their suppression by the Pope, authored one of the writings attributed to Bible-believing Martin Luther. They sought to and succeeded in portraying the great Reformer to be a rabid, Jew-hating religious bigot, as though he was Ignatius Loyola himself!"
@Ruddermanspeaks, Lefevre was teaching the doctrine of "justification by faith" in Paris. Calvin left during the torturings and burnings of Bible-believing Christians at the stake by Francis I. The Reformation was truly the greatest event in th history of the world since the first coming of Christ. Calvin was the greatest of the Reformers because he organised the Reformed Church with the Word of God being the one sole source of authority. He was nothing like the picture you paint.
@Islandretreat i have read many words from Luther and Calvin concerning their doctrine. Luther was fond of saying "sin as you will, so long as you believe". are you saying these kinds of words from him are not really his words? are you saying Calvin didn't personally light the flame to burn Servetus? and again, even if they were above reproach in other things, they were soul murderers as heretics. the break from Catholicism was needed but they didn't recover the true way of God.
Methodius (260-315 AD) Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils
BTW, Boettner even teaches that the earch chuch did not believe this sillyness. If those who were taught by John, Paul, etc. did not believe this, why should we?
I refer to this as proof texting. Taking one passage (out of context) and trying to make an entire doctorine out of it. It makes no more sense when Calvin taught this sillyness than it does today.
Why did the early church fathers not teach this? Is it b/c they know the truth? Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary. Clement of Alexandria
The quotes are from the silly calvinists. Rather sad people still teach this.
Edwin Palmer: “All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history— whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones-- come to pass because God ordained them, Even sin- the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history.”
R.C. Sproul, Jr.: “…God desired for man to fall into sin…God created sin.”
Dr. Abraham Kuyper, of Holland "The determination of the existence of all things to be created, of our own persons, whether one is to be born as boy or girl, rich or poor, dull or clever, white or colored is the most tremendous predestination conceivable in heaven or on earth; and still we see it taking place before our vary eyes every day. We ourselves are subject to it in our position in life being intirely dependent on it. prophets expounded to us this all-dominating principal of election."
Doctronine of Predestination “The Heart of the Gospel” by Michael Nevins . In this Mr. Nevins claims that Double Predestination is not only correct theology but also “one of the most profound truths of scripture.”
"It seems then that this text (speaking of Romans Ch. 8&9), in its context, provides important exegetical support for the controversial doctrine of "double predestination": just as God decides, on the basis of nothing but his own sovereign pleasure, to bestow his grace and so save some individuals, so he also decides, on the basis of nothing but his own sovereign pleasure, to pass over others."
@jfrontier1 Your issue with this doctrine seems to be based on a false dilemma. As a calvinist (ie Bible-believer) I do not wonder why God does not save some, my amazement is that God would save any. When looking at this issue, the 2 big points to a calvinist are God's authority/sovereignty and man's depravity. If one does not believe an unsaved man is dead (not just nearly dead) in his sins, then of course one would think that man would possibly choose to love God.
@staum607 I see the problem differently than you. God wants to save all, yet according to Calvin all does not mean all. It only means some. And also remember that Calvin was not assured of his own salvation.
Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and he can give life or death at his pleasure, he dispenses and ordains by his judgment that some, from their mother’s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify his name in their perdition. John Calvin
@staum607 As you may suspect, I have 3 videos on this very subject. I sugest you watch them to get a better understanding of why I think the way I do.
@jfrontier1 I am sure your videos explain your position quite well. I am also fine disagreeing with someone on this issue. I am fully convinced calvinism accurately represents the Bible, and that arminianism does not. However, as long as someone doesn't call either of the teachings heresy; I am convinced I can enjoy fellowship with that person.
@staum607 I have not refered to you or any other calvinist as heretical, simply mistaken. Yes, some calvinists are rude, but that is not due to being a believer in calvin, some people are not nice.
BTW, the calvin V. arminianism debate is also not entirely accurate. Read and study the church fathers. This is closer to what I believe.
Of course we can enjoy fellowship, never meant to suggest otherwise. I follow the teachings of Christ, not of any man.
@jfrontier1 Sorry to imply your guilt in doing this. I guess the title of the video and the tone of many here (such as warning about Washer, MacArthur, etc) seem to imply that calvinism is potentially heresy. However I was wrong to put you in that group, please forgive me for violating 1 Cor 13:7 in my discussion with you.
@GBFNorwalk I disagree with your interpretation of calvinism. If you talk to one they dont "blame God for their sins and evil" The theologians you list in your description are very clear on this fact. To me someone who lives their life accusing God of evil cannot possibly be a Christian. So your description seems to be more then a little harsh. Call them wrong on those issues - then you and I only disagree, but can still have unity. But please dont infer more then they actually teach and believe
That may an option if they were honest about what we believe. My videos are Calvinism taken to it's ogical conclusion.
James White, Potters Freedom pg. 45
...God has wisely and perfectly decreed whatever comes to pass in the universe. Nothing is outside his control, nothing is without purpose...This extends...to every aspect of human history, personal relationships, and most importantly, to the life of every man, woman, and child.
@GBFNorwalk So is it fair for a calvinist to take "arminianism to it's logical conclusion"? Or at least their opinion of it's logical conclusion as you have done?
The reason he wanted Adam and Eve to fall into sin was because of God’s eternal attribute of wrath—and “God is as delighted with his wrath as he is with all of his attributes” (52). So in light of this eternal attribute of wrath, God must create objects of wrath: “What I’ll do is create something worthy of my wrath, something on which I can exhibit the glory of my wrath” (pp. 52-53).
@GBFNorwalk I'll go even further then that. Not just wrath, but justice, grace, mercy, patience, loving-kindness - all attributes that require a sinful person
Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and he can give life or death at his pleasure, he dispenses and ordains by his judgment that some, from their mother’s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify his name in their perdition. John Calvin
@GBFNorwalk Rom 9:21-23 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
In Calvinism evil is created exnihlo and attributed to Adam at the fall, and to you at birth in such as way as you cannot, but be evil, there God in Calvinism has attributed evil to every man that has lived by creating it and causing men to do all the evil in the world, how then are you not blaming God for your evil? This makes evil an attribute of God. This makes all of your evil acts done by God, not you the one responsible for evil in the world and your life.
John Calvin comment on Adam "God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121)
@GBFNorwalk Of course, since Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, it makes sense that God would have had to plan the fall, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Him to plan for our redemption by Jesus
What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance. (The Institutes of Christian Religion, p.73)
@GBFNorwalk I dont have a problem with this, if a sparrow can't fall to the ground without God's say-so, I think it is safe to say nothing happens by chance
Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169)
@GBFNorwalk Do you believe in Rom 8:28? Do you believe the sin of killing Jesus (the greatest sin in the history on the world) was planned and caused by God (Acts 2:23)
This is from Gruman Systematic Theology. (Calvinist)
"If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise.
@GBFNorwalk I dont have a problem with this. I am grateful God chose me, because if it had been up to me, I never would have chosen Him. I was a child of the devil and lived in enmity with God. I was a God-hater, plain and simple. I needed something outside of myself to initiate my personal salvation.
Yes they are wrong. They logically bame God for evil whether thy deny it or not. In Calvinism evil is so imputed to man at birth that evil is irresistable and unconditional. So yes these men and you if you agree with thier Calvinism you are also. I will be glad to discuss it further.
@GBFNorwalk May I challenge you on your logic? If the claims you make are true of calvinism, then calvinism is very bad. Open-theists (a heresy) claim that they base their ideas on the logic of armenianism. When people do this, is it fair to then accuse armenians of actually being open theists? I just think it is better to argue against their actual stated beliefs, rather then what you personally think it might lead to. God bless!
Calvinists have been pushing everyone into the open theist or universalist camp for a long time. Calvinists have been naming and accusing falsely for a long time. Just look at the two James White derogatory videos to Calvary Chapel at the right of this thread. Where is your outrage about his behavior. I tell you what, you post that he should not be disrespectful on those videos. I will click on them in a while to see if you have the integrity and are honest or if you are biased.
@GBFNorwalk I am not basing my comments on calvinist claims, I am basing them on open-theist claims. Persoanlly, I believe it to be a false link (armenianism to open-theism), but I also believe it to be false to claim calvinists secretly blame God for their sins. I have listened to about 30 hours of James White debates (on various topics) and I have not yet heard him be disrespectful - even his opponents thank him for this. However, I will look into your claims about his behavior
@GBFNorwalk Personally I dont have a lot of respect for Caner and therefore to a lesser extent Geisler - the others I am less familiar with, but as I listen to many of James White's debates, I am sure I will eventually get to hear their point of view from their own mouth, rather then someone potentially twisting their words.
I dont think I said they secretly blame God for thier evil as you stated. They logically blame God for thier evil and I suspect they do understand the logic and call it a mystery.
@GBFNorwalk4:19 If they actually believe what you say they 'logically' do, and since they do not openly blame God for their sin, it must be done secretly. Yes, I inferred the 'secretly' part, but I dont think it is a big stretch when looking at your accusations.
Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, Ignorancefest. Look to the right and click. If you do not find that video disrespectful and do not post, I question your bias. Then lets talk about Calvinism.
@GBFNorwalk I agree that Pastor Chuck was being extremely disrespectful in his ad hominem attacks (calling them cult-like) and his straw-men (saying they dont believe man has a will). Although I know disagreeing is not the same as disrespecting, at 1st I thought James White WAS being disrespectful in calling them ignorant, but when I realized that the alternative was calling them bold faced liars, I think he was actually exercising grace.
No you are biased. Or I could say bold faced hypocricy. So actually I was excercising grace to say you were biased. Now we see your attempt at coming on this video as the fair guy, was a cloak. .
@staum607 No need to ask for forgivness. Just making sure I am not meaning to sound rude. I enjoy conversation and debate, whenever you have 2 or more Christians in a room you will get 2 or more interp. of a passage of God's word. No big deal to me.
@jfrontier1 Thanks! I agree with you there, I was just acknowledging my false accusation against you when I didn't have all the facts - I was wrong in doing that.
@staum607 PreDestination, why do you care what I think.
I was wrong (not to be taken to seriously).
Why determinism is anti-freedom.
These are a simple explaination of what I think. Feel free to comment. If this is not what you expected or would like clarification please let me know.
@jfrontier1 thanks I will watch them and get back to you. BTW, I have listened to calvinist debates (James White for example) and so have heard the opposing view make it's own defence (rather then just listen to a calvinist simply say what he thinks is the opposing view)
@staum607 I tend to prefer to listen to both sides of most issues verses just one side. I have also listened to many Calvinists and studied the issue. Just not all that impressed with it. There are allot of Calvinists sites out there that explain it well, I just think they miss the point of God's love. Also quite a bit of science backs up my point of view as well.
Did you know that Paul Washer is also a Calvinist? I was wondering if you did because you didn't include him with the popular Calvinists you listed in the video description. Thanks.
@ProofThatGodExists Acts 1:16 "Brothers, what the Holy Spirit predicted through David in Scripture about Judas had to come true." so yes he did foretold it. Peace
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son..
^ this cannot be true.. if Calvinists are correct in their interpretation of Romans 5.
Which Calvinist have you spoken to? No Calvinist would dare say sin is the causal effect of God, nor wills men to do evil. Given this first premise is the logical connector for the video, much of the video is moot. I'm not sure what kind of people you mean when you refer to "Calvinists" - certainly none of the people you have referred to in the description box believe such things. The label for those who are "hyper-Calvinist" would certainly fit here though.
The reason he wanted Adam and Eve to fall into sin was because of God’s eternal attribute of wrath—and “God is as delighted with his wrath as he is with all of his attributes” (52). So in light of this eternal attribute of wrath, God must create objects of wrath: “What I’ll do is create something worthy of my wrath, something on which I can exhibit the glory of my wrath” (pp. 52-53). RC Sproul Jr.
John Calvin comment on Adam "God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
@GBFNorwalk I appreciate these comments but unfortunately don't have time to see the context for which these quotes are written in (will look up sometime). However, I did briefly remember a few of these quotes:
"I deny that God is the author of evil" (John Calvin's Commentaries on Acts 2:23)
and on John Calvin's Commentaries on James 1:13, Calvin made it quite clear "every evil proceeds from no other fountain other than the wicked lusts of man" and that it is Satan who allures men to sin.
Calvin is in contradiction and should be rejected.
Calvin:
First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121)
My goodness, I really do hope and pray that all these folk writing here in what appears to me to be a pretty ungracious manner have the humility and grace to simply share Christ's love to men and women wherever they may find themselves, if you the author have time as a pastor to spend all this time on such things you must have time on your hands. No wonder the world laughs at or despises the modern church. I write this with great sorrow.
bondman21 1 day ago
@bondman21
Calvinists do not believe God loves all men and women. It gives me great sorrow to see that the church (such as yourself) sees no need to stand for what is right. I suspect you must also believe the apostle Paul had a lot of free time on his hands and believe his Christian life was a waste for writing all those correction letters. It is hypocrisy to make such a comment as we should be loving and then set to do your bitter correction in your comment.
GBFNorwalk 23 hours ago
@bondman21
Your comments thus far are mean and bitter. As I said you are being a hypocrite. If you want to discuss Calvinism then you are welcome to comment. It if you just want to attack my spirit, character and ministry then if that is the love you espouse you are just bitter about the accurate logical conclusions of the videos. The Calvinists who have been posting on my videos are the mean spirited ones for the most part, like yourself.
GBFNorwalk 7 hours ago
hahaaha you sound like a robot bro. and open ur eyes a little more next video bud
zosothedestroyer 3 months ago
God created everything, including sin. He says in Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."
Who cares what Calvinists say? The Bible teaches that God does everything and logic tells us that if God knows everything then He created most people for Hell and some for Heaven. If not, why create Hell or Heaven? Adam was created to sin; that's why the Tree was there.
We are all puppets to God.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (if God knows everything then He created most people for Hell and some for Heaven.)
You quoted Isaiah 45:7. If Jesus is the exact expression of who God is in the flesh, then place Jesus, as seen in the Gospels, in that scripture and show me how Jesus is the direct fulfillment of of Isaiah 45:7. Remember that Jesus said that He was the fulfillment of the Law & the Prophets.
---Colossians 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,---
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua Easy: "Jesus formed the light, and created darkness: Jesus makes peace, and creates evil: Jesus the LORD does all these things."
Jesus was God made flesh as promised in the Law & the Prophets--the shadow of His reality (Col 2:17).
Only those God chooses to can understand His Word as per Isaiah 6:9-10 (see Luke 8:10, Matt 13:10-16, Mar 4:9-12; see also Deut 29:4). Understanding & belief (faith) are the gift of God.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (Easy)
I very clearly said, "as seen in the Gospels", but if that is still too difficult for you to understand, let me make that clearer & more simple for you. Within the context of all that Jesus did and said durting his 33 years of flesh life on this earth, show me through those "Gospels", with scriptural reference, how Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 45:7. Those who understand His word, should find that question rather easy. Give it another try, if you really know Jesus.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua Increasing ur condescension won't increase ur comprehension. Let me simplify it for u: Jesus fulfilled the OT bodily. He is God. The OT is all about Him taking human form & bringing the knowledge of Himself to the Gentiles. Ur irrelevant & absurd request just deflects the point I was making with Isaiah 45:7. Here it is again: God created everything, including evil, for His own purposes. Now, either refute this or my other comments or ask for clarification; it's how dialogue works.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (The OT is all about Him taking human form & bringing the knowledge of Himself to the Gentiles.)
Before you make a statement about what God did or didn't do, within the expressed image of His Son Jesus as He walked on this earth as man, as revealed through the Gospels, prove yourself with the scriptures found within the Gospels, as Jesus clarified His fulfillment of those scriptures. You made the statement about Isaiah 45:7. Now prove it without beating around the bush.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua It is you who is beating around the bush. Reread my comment. I didn't even mention Jesus and the Gospels--you did when you tried to get me to prove a point I didn't make re:Isa 45:7. For the final time: My point about Isaiah 45:7 was SIMPLY and ONLY that God created everything including evil. There is nothing to prove; the verse states the fact that God said He created Evil. If you want me to prove some other point I made, then you will have to restate what it is sans Isa 45:7.
tolar9 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua Let me suggest a format for your next reply:
Tolar9: You said "such and such". This is incorrect because "blah, blah, blah (Ch;vrs)". No?
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (The Bible teaches that God does everything and logic tells us that if God knows everything then He created most people for Hell and some for Heaven.)
You wrote this after quoting Isaiah 45:7. Because Jesus in the flesh is the expressed image of God's Word, including Isaiah 45:7, revealing in Himself God's character & attributes because He is God in the flesh, show me with scripture from the Gospels, the character of Jesus that lines up with what your wrote about His character.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua Pt 1 of 2: You are a maddeningly inept interrogator! I made several separate assertions. The first one was: God created everything, including sin. I cited Isa 45:7 as partial proof of that. Are you saying that it is untrue because the Gospels don't describe Christ exhibiting the power to create evil? Or are you saying that Jesus isn't God; that He isn't JHWH of the OT in the flesh? Or are you saying that God's character changed when He took on human form?
tolar9 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua Pt 2 of 2: Or are you simply asking me to prove my assertion that logic tells us God created most people for Hell using Gospel verses as proof? If the latter, then I refer you to Matt 7:14, 24:14 to show only few find salvation. That God creates everyone and that people either end up in Heaven or Hell are both, I should imagine, accepted facts. Therefore, logically, if a only a few are made for Heaven, then most are made for Hell.
tolar9 3 months ago
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@tolar9 (If the latter, then I refer you to Matt 7:14, 24:14 to show only few find salvation.)
Because scripture is only complete when taken holistically, not by a mere one scripture here or one scripture there, to reach your conclusion, you must add to scripture between the lines, just as you did. You are trying to separate the inspired & written word of God from the Jesus who walked this earth as the word's exact representation & fulfillment. That's falsifying God's character. Shame on you.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@tolar9 (Therefore, logically, if a only a few are made for Heaven, then most are made for Hell.)
I am begining to see that you don't believe that Jesus is the word become flesh by your statements, such as that noted above. If you can conclude that Jesus' walk on this earth, His sacrifice on the cross, and His resurrection accomplished that to which your have given Him credit for above, that that is the "Good News" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you know not His character.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua Just can't stay focused, can you. Y'know, you would've saved a lot of time if you just got that drivel off your chest in the first place. You had that little idea in your nut from the start and just couldn't shift it long enough to actually read what I wrote.
And what's with the fake Bible-speak? "...you know not His character..." Forsooth!
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 [(...just couldn't shift it long enough to actually read what I wrote.: (you wrote: God created everything, INCLUDING EVIL, for His own purposes.)]
You speak of a Messiah(God) who is the author of both death/unrighteousness & life/righteousness. Jn 1:16
Isaiah 45 = Speaks on the accomplishments of the coming Messiah = Rom 7:13 = Heb 4:12 = Gen 1:3-5 = John 1:1-5 = John 1:14 = Col 2:9 = Gal 5:22-23 = Mat 22:1-8 = 1 John 2:2 = John 1:11-12
Did God say, Gen 1, "Let there be darkness"?
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua So, what's your point? Are you saying that God doesn't create evil? Isaiah 45:6-7 says, "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I FORM the light, and CREATE darkness: I make peace, and CREATE evil: I the LORD do all these things." What could be clearer? You're obviously so wedded to your fluffy Jesus, you have to contradict the Scriptures! YOU know not His character. (see Matt 10:28)
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (...wedded to your fluffy Jesus)
In case you missed this when you opened the WOG, the Lamb of God equals Jesus, who equals the WOG, which includes Isaiah 45, the prophesy of the coming Messiah. And yes, my Jesus, the one of scripture, is pure love(agape), as noted in 1 Cor 13. He puts an end to sin & evil, not a beginning. There's no hidden motive, "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua And who created the tree? The serpent? Hell? Sin? Who judges people and condemns them to Hell? "Agape" doesn't mean what you think it does.
And I noticed you never answer any the questions I asked you. You're not going to get anywhere near the true character of the Lord if you ignore His very words. He says, "I FORM the light, and CREATE darkness: I make peace, and CREATE evil: I the LORD do all these things." So, yes or no, do you believe these words?
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (So, yes or no, do you believe these words?)
In the very clear expression of the Living Word, but not as you.
Rom 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua You are mistaking the Law, which was "written" by God, with God, who says He created evil. You can spin it all you want, but there is only one Creator.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 ("Agape" doesn't mean what you think it does.)
It most certainly does. What you don't get is that all are dead in their sin, separated from God spiritually, before they come to Christ. God didn't cause that. Apparently, you don't see sin for what it is and think that Jesus needs to come and rekill what is already dead. Dead is dead. That is pretty elementry.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua Agape is not synonymous with the English word "love"; the term "heart" in the Bible has nothing to do with feelings. You have been lied to by your preachers.
It's simple logic. God makes everyone. God knows who will go to Hell & who who goes to Heaven. Jesus teaches that only a few go to Heaven. Ergo, God makes most people to end up in Hell.
Btw, He gives belief (faith) to the ones He doesn't want to go to Hell.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (Ergo, God makes most people to end up in Hell.)
Do try to line that up with the following scripture:
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(He gives belief (faith) to the ones He doesn't want to go to Hell.)
Faith cometh by hearing... As Jesus said...Go ye into all the world...preach the gospel(good news)...to EVERY CREATURE.
If He only chooses some, it is not good news to every creature, yet it is.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua No. YOU deal first with my comment first. The logic is clear. God makes every person. God knows where every person will end up before they are made. Jesus taught only a few (relative) are saved. Therefore when God makes most people they are being made to end up in Hell.
YOU are the one arguing, YOU are the one that must present YOUR evidence to the contrary.
tolar9 3 months ago
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@tolar9 (Therefore when God makes most people they are being made to end up in Hell.)
To conclude such, you would have to believe God a ever changing liar.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@tolar9 (And who created the tree? The serpent? Hell? Sin?)
Faith in God's word is about believing what the word says & knowing that it can't change. Lack of faith is building a story around what isn't there, like claiming God authors evil & sin. He reveals it, but He doesn't author it.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and FOR EVER.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua You didn't answer the questions. Who created the Tree? The Serpent? Hell? Sin?
Is there another Creator out there? The Lord says He created everything. I believe Him; you don't.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (The Lord says He created everything.)
This scripture does not say that either. There are three Hebrew words here: form, create, and make. They are three different words and are placed in this order to make a very specific point. Don't be so quick to make it say something else. It is the affect of one that creates the other, such as the affect of the Law to reveal sin.
Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua The progenetor of everything is God. If He makes light, darkness is a concomitant result. This doesn't mean that darkness created itself. He created the "law" of duality! Spin away all you want; but everything begins with, from, by and for God. You simply dislike the idea that God kills, makes people do evil, inflicts pain, disease and deformity on people, makes them sin AND then condemns them to Hell for it, but that's too bad for you. God does EVERYTHING. He's GOD!
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (If He makes light, darkness is a concomitant result.)
If God says, "Let there be Light", it's because there WAS no light. I suggest that you go back to Genesis 1, day #1, and review what were God's first words for that day of creation and then look at what was there before He said such. You might ask next, what happens when the light illuminates what is in darkness. Jesus shows us this as that very light in Genesis 1 that comes to the land of darkness.
contin:
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@tolar9 Continued:
If Jesus was in the beginning, as scripture tells us He was, that all things were created in and by Him, then Genesis 1 is about Jesus, the first word spoken by God, the light of the world, "Let there be Light", and the two can not be separated: Isaiah 9:2, Mat 4:16, & Luke 1:79. As scripture says, God gave us the created to reveal the invisible.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua Your conclusion is incorrect because your reading is incorrect. Jesus is God, JHVH, the Creator, who is saying "let there be light on the world which I created first (the Heavens and the Earth) which has become (the Hebrew is "became", not "was") formless and void. Then He says "be light there"; Light already existed because He is Light. God is the only Uncreated One. Everything else came into existence by Him. That is not as difficult to understand as you're making it out to be.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (Jesus is God, JHVH, the Creator, who is saying "let there be light on the world which I created first (the Heavens and the Earth) which has become (the Hebrew is "became", not "was") formless and void.)
Yet you missed a very important thing. Jesus is God, in the flesh, as a man. In the spirit, He may have been the One who said, "Let there be Light", but in flesh & blood as a man, according to John 1, is that Light come into the world. The two events can't be separated as you've done.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
Comment removed
AllForYeshua 2 months ago
@AllForYeshua I'll ask you one last time in these comments. If God didn't create evil, sin, Satan, disease, the Tree then who or what do you believe did? Who or what is this other creator you believe in?
Again, this is my last comment to you on this thread. I can't deal with your ignoring my questions and not dealing with the logic and reason in my statements before interjecting your own non sequiturs. Time to back up and establish first principles before proceeding.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (If God didn't create evil)
If Jesus, God in flesh and blood, is the creator of evil, then no evil existed before Jesus walked this earth. He who is without sin & darkness has no hand in it's creation, but He certainly exposed it for what it was. The Bible isn't about who authors evil, but salvation through Christ Jesus for a people who were already dead as door nails. Jesus didn't make them that. What scripture isn't about, darkness, isn't knowledge desired for those seeking the Lord.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
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@tolar9 (and not dealing with the logic and reason in my statements before interjecting your own non sequiturs.)
The problem exist that there is no reason & logic in your statement from the get-go. If all God created was good, as scripture clearly tells us it is, then Gen 1:2 was present before God said, "Let there be Light." Your believe of otherwise contradicts itself, which is always an interpreter error.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
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@tolar9 We can discuss this here or on my site, it doesn't matter to me. However, we will never find common ground as long as you are unable to see Jesus, as He walked this earth for 33 years, as the exact & complete image of the Father in the flesh. Jesus, in the flesh, lacked nothing in His revealing of the living word of God from Genesis through Malachi. Jesus wasn't a read between the lines type of guy. Looking at His life & walk is looking at the Father. Did Jesus create or expose evil?
AllForYeshua 2 months ago
@AllForYeshua Colossians 1:16-17 says "For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Kinda says it all, doesn't it? But no, you think there's some other Creator out there. How naive can you get!
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (You quoted: Colossians 1:16-17 and said, Kinda says it all, doesn't it?)
The answer is of course. However, you might look up the Greek word for created in that scripture. It comes from the root word meaning to aquire or to marry. The Greek word is ktizō, meaning to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island: to found a city, colony, state. That's exactly what agape(God's love) came to accomplish.
(But no, you think there's some other Creator out there.)
Not that kind. :)
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua You are severely logic-challenged. Evil exists. You say God didn't create it. Therefore YOU are saying there is another Creator, not I.
As for κτίζω, it is the same base word for κτίσμα "creature"; as in "EVERY CREATURE" to whom the Apostles were to preach. And for κτίσις "CREATION" when God made them male and female (see Mark 10:6). Clearly κτίζω is referring to the process of Divine creation, however limited (like "love") the English word is.
tolar9 3 months ago
@tolar9 (You are severely logic-challenged. Evil exists. You say God didn't create it.)
Let me ask you two simple questions: if evil has a beginning and an end, associated with time, where do you think the souls of those who reject Christ go when time ends? Scripture says that Satan has an end and it is near. Do you think that he is simply non-existent after that, as well as all those who scripture says are his?
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@tolar9 (Here it is again: God created everything, including evil, for His own purposes.)
Is it that you believe that Jesus' fulfillment of OT scripture resides outside of God's word, that expressed word in the flesh? If Jesus, in the form of flesh and blood, is that word spoken in Isaiah 45:7, then it is very present within the context of the written Gospels. If you believe that Jesus is the word become flesh, then simply answer the question to the comment that you choose to make.
AllForYeshua 3 months ago
@AllForYeshua You have a very unclear way of expressing yourself. The only actual question in your comment has nothing to do with any of the points I made, nor the words of mine which you quoted, but instead tries to foist upon me a position in an entirely unrelated argument (Christ's fulfillment of the OT).
For the last time, please ask me a direct question, in plain English, without additional commentary, relevant to my point(s). Eg: "Tolar9, what makes you think God created evil?"
tolar9 3 months ago
I'm always amazed how non- Calvinists butcher the beliefs of Calvinism to make it out like a cult from satan.
If you want to refute Calvinism - you better study it so you don't sound like an idiot to those who do understand how wrong you are (which you sound like in this video).
azmarkb 4 months ago
@azmarkb
Another anonomyous youtube Calvinst. Why dont you actually form an argument response here. Not doing so in light of your false accusation here would make you sound???. Not studied Calvinism? Post and lets see.
GBFNorwalk 4 months ago
@azmarkb
Calvinism is self refuting in it's contradictions. Go ahead, post.
GBFNorwalk 4 months ago
You know Arminians are really no different than Calvinists. Both say God knows all future events, yet if God knows of those who will not believe and spend eternity in hell, then why would he create them. Arminians say they believe in freewill, yet how are humans truly free if God knows everything they will do, while Calvinists are nothing but fatalists. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians are consistent. Both sides point fingers at each other saying they are right when they both drop the ball.
MrQuest4truth 4 months ago
@MrQuest4truth The Bible teaches that God created most people for Hell (damnation, Hades, whatever you want to call it) and some for Heaven (Eternal life, Salvation, the Kingdom, whatever). That's not "fatalism", it is Predestination. All that the Father has given to Christ (given, past tense) will be saved. Yes, God knows--knew before Creation--who's going to Hell and who's going to Heaven. Why? Because He wanted to. It's all "according to the good pleasure of His will". Eph 1:5. His; not ours.
tolar9 3 months ago
James White is a LYING rascal. Calvinism is sickening. A real man of God today if there is one is Peter Ruckman. An elite Bible teacher, maybe the best alive today.
warriorspikes51 7 months ago
Excellent!
bibledoctrine 7 months ago
It is NOT inexplicable UNLESS you are a deluded follower of Van Til. The Bible is clear about God's decreeing ALL that comes to pass. He also foreknows the future be cause He has predestined it. God is the ULTIMATE cause of ALL things. Do you deny God knows the future. If so: He will LEARN things when they happen. If THAT is so, God will change and is NOT immutable.
What standard will be used to judge God IF God is the Supreme Being? What standard will we hold Him to? GOD RULES AS HE SEES FIT!
Blogrich55 7 months ago
@Blogrich55
Well James White, John MacArthur, John Piper, ect say they dont understand Gods sovergnty and man responsability. I can provide the videos.
If God caused al things then He in Calvinism has authored evil and attributed evil to mankind unconditionally and irresistably, and man have not truly done evil acts as they have obeyed God perfectly in only doing what God has caused for them in advance.
So what you are saying then is you do not have a probem with my video.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
During its earthly existence, the human being possesses a GOD-given right to free will. I suggest you consider and take responsibility for the exercise of your free will to tolerate, and engage in evil. STOP blaming GOD. STOP spreading your poison. And, if you can help it, STOP being as * asshole * your entire life. Else, you'll be going to hell, boy...mark my words...heh heh heh.
Theagenthollyhock 7 months ago
Oh and here is a freebie, Chapter 3 article one of the westmister confession of faith, the oldest and most trusted statement of calvinistic belief clearly states, that God is not the author of sin. This is also recorded in the 1689 London Baptist confession, another trusted calvinistic statement of faith.
jyhoke 7 months ago
@jyhoke
The confession is in contradiction. So it is to be rejected. It cannot both be true that God decrees everything that comes to pass and also be true that He is not the author of evil. Did God decree the Bible to be written and therefore He is the author of it? So I claimed that God causally in Calvinism causes evil. And I calimed God in Calvinism knows causally. If God therefore in Calvinism knows causally, how did God not initiate sin and evil in man?
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
You offered only false claims so i have nothing to deal with. provide even one true claim that is not an emotional misrepresentation based upon what you think Calvinism is, and I will be happy to respond. You might want to start by reading to understand rather than reading to find your argument, as to any reasonable student of this issue could see, it is quite clear that you have an axe to grind and you are not about to let the facts get in your way.
jyhoke 7 months ago
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Calvinists need to read the Bible more.
ChristiansofAsia 7 months ago
This is flat out the most arrogant misrepresentation I have yet seen. This guy is make false assertion after false assertion then he tears down the false claims he has made as if they were a true representation of Calvinistic teaching. You should not attack what you do not understand. It is a flat out lie!
jyhoke 7 months ago
@jyhoke
Talk about a false accusation. Demonstrate how I flat out lied. Explain the misrepresentaion and any false claim. Trust me I understand Calvinism, and will defend my position. These men are free to rebut my comments and so are you. Just begin. Also I can think of nothing more arrogant than what you just did in making an accusation without any rebuttal of your own.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
I have raised this issue with Calvinists. Usually they just use ambiguous language to avoid answering it. On occasion they will blame Sin on Adam. The problem that arises is that they have just admitted that Adam's Free Choice coexisted alongside God's Sovereignty. The simple fact is that the Calvinists have only two options. God is the source of evil, or some being under God has free choice.
ApologeticsBenJoiner 7 months ago
@ApologeticsBenJoiner Did God decree the killing of babies in 1 san 15:3?
October31st1517 7 months ago
@October31st1517 What do you mean? Are you asking did God decree it for evil reasons or are you asking did God decree it for good reasons?
ApologeticsBenJoiner 7 months ago
@ApologeticsBenJoiner I wasn't talking yet about the reason. I like you believe God decreed this evil act for a good purpose. That's what Calvinism teaches. Yet God is not the author of sin. I have no problem with God decreeing sin. I do have a problem with God commiting sin.
October31st1517 7 months ago
@October31st1517 I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying. Why do you say that?
ApologeticsBenJoiner 7 months ago
@October31st1517 what do you mean by decreeing sin? If He forces one to sin is He not committing it. God tempts no man. What mental gymnastics one must do to follow the murderous dictator!
Ruddermanspeaks 6 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks Your fallacy is you are equating DECREE with FORCE. God inclines our hearts so that we will want to recieve Him. The Psalmist says "The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want. He gives me the freewil to lay in green pastures?" No. "He MAKES us lay down in green pastures. That's how much God loves His people. God decrees ALL that comes to pass.
October31st1517 6 months ago
@October31st1517 well, what's the difference between "decree" and "force"? If you are saying that it is to "incline our hearts so that we will want to", what is your point? If God inclined Adam's heart, then in order for Adam to be guilty, then he it must have been required of Adam that he resist the inclinations of God upon his heart. otherwise Adam was innocent. Only a dark, depraved devil, like the vicious dictator, Calvin, would suggest such lunacy. how could you parrot this unholiness?
Ruddermanspeaks 6 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks So I give you scripture, and you give me nothing. You're comfortable with your God because it's a God that you created in your image.
October31st1517 6 months ago
@October31st1517 what do you mean you gave me scripture? You quoted a psalm and I tried to keep you on subject, which you keep trying not to be. Again i will ask you, what is the difference between "force" and "decree"? What is the difference between inclining a man's heart to sin and forcing him? How was Adam guilty if God forced or inclined him to sin? You are happy with your God because you don't feel like you are liable to be burnt forever and ever unfairly. you believe you are a special one
Ruddermanspeaks 6 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks "You are happy with your God because you don't feel like you are liable to be burnt forever and ever unfairly. you believe you are a special one" If that's what you believe Calvinism teaches than I am not one. To Force someone is to give them no choice. In Calvinism man does have a choice, but he will ALWAYS choose the wrong thing because of his nature. God created man with freewill, but when man fell, his will became enslaved. You detest the God of the bible. I deserve hell.
October31st1517 6 months ago
@October31st1517 once again you skillfully maneuver off the direct subject to something indirectly related. I wonder if this is how you have shielded yourself from the dark realities of your indoctrination. You accept the teachings of a murderous dictator as authority in your life. He taught you that Adam was decreed by a Holy God who hates sin to sin. what is the difference in decreeing and forcing when it comes to God? What is the difference between inclining and forcing when it comes to God?
Ruddermanspeaks 6 months ago
@October31st1517 I meant to say"you are not liable"
Ruddermanspeaks 6 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks I am liable. I've offended a Holy & Rightous God.
October31st1517 6 months ago
@October31st1517 but now you believe that since you have had some kind of favorable response to the gospel, that this a sign that you are CERTAINLY one of His elect that he chose to force to be saved while he forced everyone else to sin and never offered or was ever willing to offer them a helping hand. you are sooo special that God even created the wicked (who he forced to be wicked) so that you could learn something about His wrath as he tortures them beyond description for ever and ever. sick
Ruddermanspeaks 6 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks, "the murderous dictator....the vicious dictator....etc"
Your distorted view of history shouldn't have any bearing on the issues being discussed. Unfortunately you're not alone.
Islandretreat 5 months ago
@Islandretreat you have obviously never did a study into Calvin in Geneva. What is distorted about my description of him? It should cause great pause to anyone, when the source of your belief system is a murderous tyrant. this is not a Christian man by any definition, and this is your Bible teacher whom you parrot everything his depraved mind conjures? Luther was another heretic that made hateful murderous statements against Jews. if you hate you are a murderer without eternal life 1John3:15
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks, I wouldn't believe everything the Jesuits tell you. Roman Canon Law, Papal suppression of books, that's the reason for your one-sided, distorted view of history.
Islandretreat 5 months ago
@Islandretreat well forget the several eye witness accounts of his character and deeds, i knew Calvin and Luther were heretics long before i learned of their egregious (even for pagans) behavior.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks, You knew nothing of the sort Sinner. Thou shallt not bear false witness. Quote from one of the many suppressed Protestant books: "the Sons of Loyola, while secretly teaching at the German Lutheran Tubingen University during their suppression by the Pope, authored one of the writings attributed to Bible-believing Martin Luther. They sought to and succeeded in portraying the great Reformer to be a rabid, Jew-hating religious bigot, as though he was Ignatius Loyola himself!"
Islandretreat 5 months ago
@Ruddermanspeaks, Lefevre was teaching the doctrine of "justification by faith" in Paris. Calvin left during the torturings and burnings of Bible-believing Christians at the stake by Francis I. The Reformation was truly the greatest event in th history of the world since the first coming of Christ. Calvin was the greatest of the Reformers because he organised the Reformed Church with the Word of God being the one sole source of authority. He was nothing like the picture you paint.
Islandretreat 5 months ago
@Islandretreat i have read many words from Luther and Calvin concerning their doctrine. Luther was fond of saying "sin as you will, so long as you believe". are you saying these kinds of words from him are not really his words? are you saying Calvin didn't personally light the flame to burn Servetus? and again, even if they were above reproach in other things, they were soul murderers as heretics. the break from Catholicism was needed but they didn't recover the true way of God.
Ruddermanspeaks 5 months ago
@October31st1517
Where is the decree in 1 Sam 15:3?
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk Who did God command the Israelites to kill?
October31st1517 7 months ago
@October31st1517
So every command of God is a decreeal irresistable cause?
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
Amen, obedience to God is the mark of God's authority in our lives, not sin in our lives
iiiwideopen 7 months ago
Methodius (260-315 AD) Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils
BTW, Boettner even teaches that the earch chuch did not believe this sillyness. If those who were taught by John, Paul, etc. did not believe this, why should we?
jfrontier1 7 months ago
I refer to this as proof texting. Taking one passage (out of context) and trying to make an entire doctorine out of it. It makes no more sense when Calvin taught this sillyness than it does today.
Why did the early church fathers not teach this? Is it b/c they know the truth? Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary. Clement of Alexandria
jfrontier1 7 months ago
The quotes are from the silly calvinists. Rather sad people still teach this.
Edwin Palmer: “All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history— whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones-- come to pass because God ordained them, Even sin- the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history.”
R.C. Sproul, Jr.: “…God desired for man to fall into sin…God created sin.”
jfrontier1 7 months ago
Dr. Abraham Kuyper, of Holland "The determination of the existence of all things to be created, of our own persons, whether one is to be born as boy or girl, rich or poor, dull or clever, white or colored is the most tremendous predestination conceivable in heaven or on earth; and still we see it taking place before our vary eyes every day. We ourselves are subject to it in our position in life being intirely dependent on it. prophets expounded to us this all-dominating principal of election."
jfrontier1 7 months ago
Doctronine of Predestination “The Heart of the Gospel” by Michael Nevins . In this Mr. Nevins claims that Double Predestination is not only correct theology but also “one of the most profound truths of scripture.”
jfrontier1 7 months ago
Lots of calvinists claim Double PreD.
Douglas Moo, a well noted theologian, states;
"It seems then that this text (speaking of Romans Ch. 8&9), in its context, provides important exegetical support for the controversial doctrine of "double predestination": just as God decides, on the basis of nothing but his own sovereign pleasure, to bestow his grace and so save some individuals, so he also decides, on the basis of nothing but his own sovereign pleasure, to pass over others."
jfrontier1 7 months ago
@jfrontier1 Your issue with this doctrine seems to be based on a false dilemma. As a calvinist (ie Bible-believer) I do not wonder why God does not save some, my amazement is that God would save any. When looking at this issue, the 2 big points to a calvinist are God's authority/sovereignty and man's depravity. If one does not believe an unsaved man is dead (not just nearly dead) in his sins, then of course one would think that man would possibly choose to love God.
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607 I see the problem differently than you. God wants to save all, yet according to Calvin all does not mean all. It only means some. And also remember that Calvin was not assured of his own salvation.
Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and he can give life or death at his pleasure, he dispenses and ordains by his judgment that some, from their mother’s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify his name in their perdition. John Calvin
jfrontier1 7 months ago
@staum607 As you may suspect, I have 3 videos on this very subject. I sugest you watch them to get a better understanding of why I think the way I do.
Blessings,
jfrontier1 7 months ago
@jfrontier1 I am sure your videos explain your position quite well. I am also fine disagreeing with someone on this issue. I am fully convinced calvinism accurately represents the Bible, and that arminianism does not. However, as long as someone doesn't call either of the teachings heresy; I am convinced I can enjoy fellowship with that person.
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607 I have not refered to you or any other calvinist as heretical, simply mistaken. Yes, some calvinists are rude, but that is not due to being a believer in calvin, some people are not nice.
BTW, the calvin V. arminianism debate is also not entirely accurate. Read and study the church fathers. This is closer to what I believe.
Of course we can enjoy fellowship, never meant to suggest otherwise. I follow the teachings of Christ, not of any man.
Blessings to you in His name.
jfrontier1 7 months ago
@jfrontier1 Sorry to imply your guilt in doing this. I guess the title of the video and the tone of many here (such as warning about Washer, MacArthur, etc) seem to imply that calvinism is potentially heresy. However I was wrong to put you in that group, please forgive me for violating 1 Cor 13:7 in my discussion with you.
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
Whats wrong with the title and how is the video wrong?
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk I disagree with your interpretation of calvinism. If you talk to one they dont "blame God for their sins and evil" The theologians you list in your description are very clear on this fact. To me someone who lives their life accusing God of evil cannot possibly be a Christian. So your description seems to be more then a little harsh. Call them wrong on those issues - then you and I only disagree, but can still have unity. But please dont infer more then they actually teach and believe
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
That may an option if they were honest about what we believe. My videos are Calvinism taken to it's ogical conclusion.
James White, Potters Freedom pg. 45
...God has wisely and perfectly decreed whatever comes to pass in the universe. Nothing is outside his control, nothing is without purpose...This extends...to every aspect of human history, personal relationships, and most importantly, to the life of every man, woman, and child.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk So is it fair for a calvinist to take "arminianism to it's logical conclusion"? Or at least their opinion of it's logical conclusion as you have done?
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
RC Sproul Jr.
The reason he wanted Adam and Eve to fall into sin was because of God’s eternal attribute of wrath—and “God is as delighted with his wrath as he is with all of his attributes” (52). So in light of this eternal attribute of wrath, God must create objects of wrath: “What I’ll do is create something worthy of my wrath, something on which I can exhibit the glory of my wrath” (pp. 52-53).
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk I'll go even further then that. Not just wrath, but justice, grace, mercy, patience, loving-kindness - all attributes that require a sinful person
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
RC Sproul Jr.
“It was [God’s] desire to make his wrath known. He needed, then, something on which to be wrathful. He needed to have sinful creatures” (p. 57).
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@staum607
Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and he can give life or death at his pleasure, he dispenses and ordains by his judgment that some, from their mother’s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify his name in their perdition. John Calvin
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk Rom 9:21-23 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
In Calvinism evil is created exnihlo and attributed to Adam at the fall, and to you at birth in such as way as you cannot, but be evil, there God in Calvinism has attributed evil to every man that has lived by creating it and causing men to do all the evil in the world, how then are you not blaming God for your evil? This makes evil an attribute of God. This makes all of your evil acts done by God, not you the one responsible for evil in the world and your life.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@staum607
John Calvin comment on Adam "God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
(Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@staum607
First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121)
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk Of course, since Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, it makes sense that God would have had to plan the fall, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Him to plan for our redemption by Jesus
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
Calvin
What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance. (The Institutes of Christian Religion, p.73)
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk I dont have a problem with this, if a sparrow can't fall to the ground without God's say-so, I think it is safe to say nothing happens by chance
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
Calvin
Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169)
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk Do you believe in Rom 8:28? Do you believe the sin of killing Jesus (the greatest sin in the history on the world) was planned and caused by God (Acts 2:23)
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
This is from Gruman Systematic Theology. (Calvinist)
"If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk I dont have a problem with this. I am grateful God chose me, because if it had been up to me, I never would have chosen Him. I was a child of the devil and lived in enmity with God. I was a God-hater, plain and simple. I needed something outside of myself to initiate my personal salvation.
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
Yes they are wrong. They logically bame God for evil whether thy deny it or not. In Calvinism evil is so imputed to man at birth that evil is irresistable and unconditional. So yes these men and you if you agree with thier Calvinism you are also. I will be glad to discuss it further.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk I thought armenians believed people are born in sin. Am I mistaken?
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
I took the names off. I believe the arguments in the video are sound, but the names, well it bothers me when they do it. Thanks Staum607.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk May I challenge you on your logic? If the claims you make are true of calvinism, then calvinism is very bad. Open-theists (a heresy) claim that they base their ideas on the logic of armenianism. When people do this, is it fair to then accuse armenians of actually being open theists? I just think it is better to argue against their actual stated beliefs, rather then what you personally think it might lead to. God bless!
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
Calvinists have been pushing everyone into the open theist or universalist camp for a long time. Calvinists have been naming and accusing falsely for a long time. Just look at the two James White derogatory videos to Calvary Chapel at the right of this thread. Where is your outrage about his behavior. I tell you what, you post that he should not be disrespectful on those videos. I will click on them in a while to see if you have the integrity and are honest or if you are biased.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk I am not basing my comments on calvinist claims, I am basing them on open-theist claims. Persoanlly, I believe it to be a false link (armenianism to open-theism), but I also believe it to be false to claim calvinists secretly blame God for their sins. I have listened to about 30 hours of James White debates (on various topics) and I have not yet heard him be disrespectful - even his opponents thank him for this. However, I will look into your claims about his behavior
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
James White disrespect for Geisler, Hunt, Bryson, Smith, Rogers, Caner, ect. is infamous.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk Personally I dont have a lot of respect for Caner and therefore to a lesser extent Geisler - the others I am less familiar with, but as I listen to many of James White's debates, I am sure I will eventually get to hear their point of view from their own mouth, rather then someone potentially twisting their words.
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
I dont think I said they secretly blame God for thier evil as you stated. They logically blame God for thier evil and I suspect they do understand the logic and call it a mystery.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk 4:19 If they actually believe what you say they 'logically' do, and since they do not openly blame God for their sin, it must be done secretly. Yes, I inferred the 'secretly' part, but I dont think it is a big stretch when looking at your accusations.
staum607 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk what are the specific titles of the videos you are referring to?
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, Ignorancefest. Look to the right and click. If you do not find that video disrespectful and do not post, I question your bias. Then lets talk about Calvinism.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk I agree that Pastor Chuck was being extremely disrespectful in his ad hominem attacks (calling them cult-like) and his straw-men (saying they dont believe man has a will). Although I know disagreeing is not the same as disrespecting, at 1st I thought James White WAS being disrespectful in calling them ignorant, but when I realized that the alternative was calling them bold faced liars, I think he was actually exercising grace.
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607
No you are biased. Or I could say bold faced hypocricy. So actually I was excercising grace to say you were biased. Now we see your attempt at coming on this video as the fair guy, was a cloak. .
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@staum607 No need to ask for forgivness. Just making sure I am not meaning to sound rude. I enjoy conversation and debate, whenever you have 2 or more Christians in a room you will get 2 or more interp. of a passage of God's word. No big deal to me.
Be Blessed.
jfrontier1 7 months ago
@jfrontier1 Thanks! I agree with you there, I was just acknowledging my false accusation against you when I didn't have all the facts - I was wrong in doing that.
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607 All is good.
Be blessed and have a great day.
jfrontier1 7 months ago
@jfrontier1 looking through the titles of your videos and I am not sure which ones are you referring to exactly.
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607 PreDestination, why do you care what I think.
I was wrong (not to be taken to seriously).
Why determinism is anti-freedom.
These are a simple explaination of what I think. Feel free to comment. If this is not what you expected or would like clarification please let me know.
Blessings.
jfrontier1 7 months ago
@jfrontier1 thanks I will watch them and get back to you. BTW, I have listened to calvinist debates (James White for example) and so have heard the opposing view make it's own defence (rather then just listen to a calvinist simply say what he thinks is the opposing view)
staum607 7 months ago
@staum607 I tend to prefer to listen to both sides of most issues verses just one side. I have also listened to many Calvinists and studied the issue. Just not all that impressed with it. There are allot of Calvinists sites out there that explain it well, I just think they miss the point of God's love. Also quite a bit of science backs up my point of view as well.
Be Blessed.
jfrontier1 7 months ago
Did you know that Paul Washer is also a Calvinist? I was wondering if you did because you didn't include him with the popular Calvinists you listed in the video description. Thanks.
dgc3163 7 months ago
no
pwoodfi 7 months ago
What is the greatest crime/sin you can think of in the history of mankind. What is the absolute worst act?
staum607 7 months ago
Did God intend the actions of Joseph's brothers? (Genesis 50:20)
ProofThatGodExists 7 months ago
Did God plan Judas' betrayal of Jesus? (Acts 2:23)
ProofThatGodExists 7 months ago
@ProofThatGodExists Acts 1:16 "Brothers, what the Holy Spirit predicted through David in Scripture about Judas had to come true." so yes he did foretold it. Peace
piqlol 7 months ago
@piqlol P.S As i understand it judas is the only one who cannot go to heaven (unsaveable).
piqlol 7 months ago
@piqlol I did not ask if God foretold it, I asked if He planned it (Acts 2:23)
ProofThatGodExists 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son..
^ this cannot be true.. if Calvinists are correct in their interpretation of Romans 5.
EliasCrowe 7 months ago
Double Predestination is a horrible teaching.
Calvinists believe in -forced salvation-. that's what "Irresistable Grace" is.. and it's completely unbiblical.
Ezekiel 18:32 - For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
EliasCrowe 7 months ago
Which Calvinist have you spoken to? No Calvinist would dare say sin is the causal effect of God, nor wills men to do evil. Given this first premise is the logical connector for the video, much of the video is moot. I'm not sure what kind of people you mean when you refer to "Calvinists" - certainly none of the people you have referred to in the description box believe such things. The label for those who are "hyper-Calvinist" would certainly fit here though.
ChristianDefence 7 months ago
@ChristianDefence Have you heard James White's statement concerning who is responsible for child rape? It's on youtube.
tonyb408 7 months ago
@ChristianDefence
The reason he wanted Adam and Eve to fall into sin was because of God’s eternal attribute of wrath—and “God is as delighted with his wrath as he is with all of his attributes” (52). So in light of this eternal attribute of wrath, God must create objects of wrath: “What I’ll do is create something worthy of my wrath, something on which I can exhibit the glory of my wrath” (pp. 52-53). RC Sproul Jr.
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@ChristianDefence
John Calvin comment on Adam "God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
(Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago
@GBFNorwalk I appreciate these comments but unfortunately don't have time to see the context for which these quotes are written in (will look up sometime). However, I did briefly remember a few of these quotes:
"I deny that God is the author of evil" (John Calvin's Commentaries on Acts 2:23)
and on John Calvin's Commentaries on James 1:13, Calvin made it quite clear "every evil proceeds from no other fountain other than the wicked lusts of man" and that it is Satan who allures men to sin.
ChristianDefence 7 months ago
@ChristianDefence
I would add, not all will make sense to a person using flawed humanistic reasoning and applying that to spiritual understanding.
Much of what I believe is based upon FAITH and not humanistic reasoning but let me be clear it is not BLIND faith.
THERAPTURECOMES 7 months ago
@ChristianDefence
Calvin is in contradiction and should be rejected.
Calvin:
First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121)
GBFNorwalk 7 months ago