Dogfights: " Thunderbolt "

[homoKaliptus]

this show helped me a lot to learn how to play on a PC game " warbirds 3 "

[OstWind84]

the luftwaffe never started in germany an operation with 40 bf-109´s (bodenplatte was in belgium and NL), i can´t belive that!!! the luftwaffe starts in rots and not in pulks of 109´s. in every book you can read that most of allies pilots never saw an german fighter, and in this story, 30 or 40 109´s against (because of increasing) to 16 p-47. tim grace author and historian^^ i think 30 or 40 p-47 against 4 rots of bf-109´s is more believable.

[xxuncexx]

@OstWind84 its not fiction you dumbass, he didnt make it up. maybe its sounds more logic but the FACTS are it DIDNT HAPPEN.

[Salguine]

@OstWind84 What are "rots" and "pulks"?

[MrDriver300]

is there anything on media that americans dont win?

[eaglemike1515]

@MrDriver300 sure there are you it seems you dont like to do research 

[molanlabexm15]

Eight 50 cals. Man htat would be great ground attack fire. You know what i think would be cool if some private security company in Afghanistan used these for support missions.

[grasess]

Propaganda

[molanlabexm15]

@grasess i don't know, they DID win the war...

[TeutonicKnight39]

@grasess Have to agree with you on that mate. Propaganda, nothing more. I.E. British claims in the Battle of Britain were widely exaggerated. They claimed 180 German aircraft shot down one day, but in actuality they only downed 65. This is basically the same thing. I've been a commercial pilot for 10 years and I haven't met a pilot yet that hasn't lied or exaggerated about something. We've all done it at one point or another and the pilots in WW2 weren't any different.

[xraidedlok]

so do the ones that land after bein shot down get back home and jump in another and go back up? would pilots try to shoot parachuting guys?

[existentialvoid]

there are few planes that can match the 109 in the vert. the 47 must have ahad a lot more E to be able to win in a vet. scissors.

[burjegol]

@existentialvoid sir, the 2nd highest scoring US ace in the ETO had an encounter with a jerry pilot. After blasting a B-17, they engaged in a fight. the german climb steeply, but with the fat paddle blades, they jug never let go. The jerry dived. In his own words, the pilot said of the german "he was good, one of the very best I've met, but the dive was his mistake. nothing can outdive a jug". An indication that a jug can fight in a vertical with a 109. Needless to say, he bagged the german.

[burjegol]

@existentialvoid And while on a familiarization flight over England, Johnson met a spitfire. he signalled a climb and the spit left the jug as if it was standing still. later, after being fitted swith paddle blades, while testing the plane, he again met a spitfire. signalling the pilot for a climb, the jug left behind the spit. He said "never again will a german pilot outclomb me in a jug. the new paddle blade is worth a 1000 hp".

[Xiolablu3]

@burjegol

Which version of the Spitfire did he say it was? The first could have been a mkIX or mkVIX, the 2nd a mkV. That 'report' is totally useless unless he mentions the marks of the Spitfire. The Spitfire doubled its max climb rate during the war from 2500fpm to over 5000fpm

[burjegol]

@Xiolablu3 not mentioned sir. probablythe same spit that outclimb him previously. His familiarization flight was early 1943 and the paddle blades were fitted their warbirds late autumn. by that mebbe you can deduce what spit model he was referring to.

[puchatekkubus123]

Typical american approach to build some machinery; must be BIG ('hat's bigger is better'), heavy, pilot mus have place space for him and two eventual guests...

That wasn't good fighter. Like Kurt Buehligen said: "The P-47 was very heavy, too heavy for some manoeuvres. We would see it coming from behind, and pull up fast and the P-47 couldnt follow and we came around and got on its tail in this way."

[norseleague]

Live and learn.....but who had the biggest tanks in WW2 on the western front-it wasn't us-oh btw. it was GERMANY!

[kbroma01]

@puchatekkubus123

And how about those Polish aircraft designers. Wait a minute, what Polish aircraft designers. What a short memory you have for one of the best American Fighter Pilots born to Polish Parents. Most of his victories were accomplished in a P-47 Thunderbolt. His name was Francis Gabreski.

[darthporkius]

in a air exhibition i heard a british hurricane fly at top speed.

it was louder than any singel prop plane i had ever heard.

80 dogfighting planes must sound like thunder.

[Waldmeister19]

yeeee sure the ladylikest fighters are only from the USA

[SchwarzeProminence]

It's funny that from 2:28 to 2:48 the scene looks like the Mission Shattered Skies from AC4 ha ha ha!

[csmeltz]

80 fighters slugging it out over head! Surreal!

[norseleague]

Man-I can't imagine that!

[kbroma01]

@norseleague ???

[badkarma52]

top 3 in no particular order imho

fw 190d11

spitfire mkxiii

p51d

[lay3Rv2]

Haha, I tried doing a top 3 aircraft imho. It was impossible. I just kept erasing and putting in new ones.

I have to do a top 6 favorite

F6F

Me262

F4U

FW190 A8 ( I just like these more for some reason)

P38

BF109

[icantbelieveitshuman]

All i have to say To the Victor Goes The Spoils and all losers are weepers.

[T2Gibbon]

wth ? 30 + 40 bf109?

[Vickzq]

Yeah sure... the best fighters are only from USA... forget it!

[kbroma01]

What have the Swiss built to compare?

[norseleague]

They flew German aircraft.

[barkahannibal]

@Vickzq no from deutschland ! HARTMAN ! 352 kills !!!!!

or the DIVELS PILOTS - MARSEILLE 152 KILLS (ONLY BRITCH,FRENCH,AMERIKANS)

[oldgitpyon]

@Vickzq they make/have made plenty of good fighters to say that the best fighters are only from yhe usa would be wrong for instance early ww2 the amercans only had rubbish alison engins so wernt much good ww1 they didnt have ANY fighters they flew french and british planes each fighter has its hayday the mig 21 and phantom were about eqal the mig was inishaley slightly better if only cus it actualy had a gun! why else would the big bad amercans fail to get complite air suppiriorty over viatnam

[USSIowaBattleship61]

There was what i think are the 3 best fighters of WWII, The North American P-51 Mustang, The Chance Vought F4U Corsair, and The Grumman F6F Hellcat, but i think the P-47 is still a outstanding fighter

[LooseRivet2103]

All American hmmm some bias I think, what about the Me262, FW190D, Spitfire MK14, Hawker Tempest and Mosquito?

[Mattebubben]

yeeee sure ... i would say the best 3 Airplanes of the ww2 are the P51 the Spitfire And the Fw 190

[Longnez]

Je cherche des passionnés comme moi des nombreux combats entre Jugs/P'51/P'38 et 190/A8/109/G6 au dessus de l'Ile de France et l'Eure, les allemands décollant de Villacoublay/Guyancourt/St Cyr l'Ecole. Je n'ai pu trouvé que le beau livre de JB Frappé "La luftwaffe face au débarquement alliés" chez Heimdal répertoriant tous les crashs dans la région.

[AdventureSwede]

The power to weight ratio is much better on a 109 from 1944. 0,55 hp/kg while the p47 d27 from -44 had 0,38 hp/kg.

the 109 climbed almost 6 meters/sec faster. In a climb of 20 sec = aprox 120 meters.

[spartanwarrior340]

p-47s are amazing for how big they are and how much they still got done

[horvathmiklos]

Actually I can not link the video, but it is also YouTube, so just make a search

"Skip Holm interview about Bf-109"

and enjoy!

Well, as my aerodinamics prof. used to say: "The planes KNOW phisics, we only try to imagine...")

[BMunich16]

Dude I hardly believe you are in college when you can't even spell correctly

[horvathmiklos]

Here is an interview with two pilots who actually flying those planes and not just read about - as me.

They are - according to the accent - americans, so not "the enemy", so they have no reason to prove the german planes better.

They compare the Me-109G with the Mustang (which was more agile as the P-47) and the Spitfire.

I think they know more about this planes as we who have to rely on other people's work.

[flywheel8805]

Youtube Gabby Gabreski interview.

Enjoy.........

[flywheel8805]

A bigger engine spinning the prop slower. The big 4 blade paddle prop on the 47 moved more air (displacement). The prop speed was .5 that of the engine, allowing for more pitch in the prop. It displaced more air making it more efficient, notably at altitude.

In the vertical, it's all about grabbing air for prop driven aircraft.

Sorry about the "complete" comment. My bad.

[horvathmiklos]

I think what you speak about is called in English the "propulsion efficiency ratio". Well, here is not enough space to explain it but it is not so as you had written. Sorry, but I have to disagree...

And the Germans, who beat the US - and the whole world - for at least 10 years in jet tech knew more about propulsion as them. I am absolutely sure about that.

Don't get me wrong, my country was occupied by the Germas in WW2 so I'm surly not a "nazi freak"! But the rules of phisics are strict.

[flywheel8805]

You are correct. I was trying to keep it simple because of space. As I said, this is only one factor in the equation. The hours on the engine is a "factor". The fuel load, etc,etc all figure into what actually happened. We simply have to take the word of the pilot in this one incident.

My father flew a 47 in France. He held the utmost respect for the 109 and the 190. Slip up on them, shoot and run.

They were ahead on the jet tech, but we caught up quick. They flew our 104 for many years.

[horvathmiklos]

As Aeronautical Engineer I especially liked the part where a P-47 (weights 6 tons, with an engine of 2400HP = 0,4 HP/kg) outclimbs a Me-109 (weight 3,6 tons, 2000 HP = about 0,6 HP/kg <= 38% advantage to the Messersmith)!

What kind of idiot they think I am?!

But: nice effects! The story was never a strong side of a Hollywood movie anyway...

[paul6t4]

the p47d weighed 7938kg and had 2535hp giving it a power to weight of .31hp/kg and was fitted with the paddle blade prop giving it more pulling power. the 109g weighed 3150kg but only 1455hp and a power to weight of .21hp/kg giving the p47 the advantage in a climb.

[horvathmiklos]

Excuse me, I have checked it with a calculator, but it also come out with 1455/3150=0.46hp/kg...

But the first part is right (according to my calculations) 2535/7938=0.32hp/kg.

May I ask which versions you chose (both planes) and what was the source? It would be interesting to compare it with mine...

[paul6t4]

I got the specifications for the P47-D & BF109 G-6 from Wikipedia. You will also see that although the P47 weighed over twice as much as the 109 it was faster (433 to 398) and reached its maximum performance at a higher altitude(30 000 to 21 000). Although the 109 had a more aerodynamic shape the P47 relied on a bigger coarse pitch prop and a turbocharger to give it the advantage in the thinner air at higher altitude.The Germans did the same with the paddle prop FW190-D giving it a higher speed.

[horvathmiklos]

Wikipedia is a great forum, but it is free so don't belive everithing you read there! :-)

Well, I think we should question everithing...

The problem is the date. The movie is about a dogfight above France ("Fromme"?), so the date must be after Jun.1944. So the "Thud" must be "Bubbletop" after the 25th series. Most probably a D-30. The engine: Pratt&Whitney R-2800-21 with water injection - 2430 PS. (source:Paul Eden - Soph Moeng: Aircraft Anatomy World War II, Aerospace Publishing Ltd., 2003)

[horvathmiklos]

The Me-109G6 entered service in December 1942 - so compare it with a mid. '44 Thud is not realistic...

Actually, by this time the probable wersinon was a G10 or G14, and they had the DB 605D- AS engine with 2000 PS at take off and 2030 PS at 1640 feet. (source: Die grossen Luftschlachten des Zweiten Weltkriegs, Berichtete Ausgabe für den NeuenKaiser Verlag - Gesellschaft m.b.H., Klagenfurt)

[paul6t4]

By late 1944 the 109 was effectively an obsolete airframe kept in service by a hard pressed Luftwaffe which did not have enough numbers of a suitable replacement. The only 2000 hp db605 available in 1944 was the DB605 DC ( Mercedes Benz AG Archives Stuttgart) and by that stage of the war the 109G was being fitted with what ever 605 engine available just to get them in the air, resulting in a great variation in performance of aircraft of the same version.

[claudius1st]

it's also depends of the weight of the fuel... if the P47 has 50% fuel and the ME109 more than 50 or 75% it can do a difference of weight

can't be?

[flywheel8805]

Complete idiot.

You forgot to factor in prop displacement!

[horvathmiklos]

Excuse me again, it seems I am really a "complete idiot" but I do not understand what you mean by "prop displacement"...

I have just a few books on aerodinamics and aeronautics in english.

Could you explain?

[Bobbyo60]

@horvathmiklos So, you're saying the man is lying??

[horvathmiklos]

Once there was a aerial combat over Hungary in 1944. 600 heavy bombers of the USAAF attacked with the escort of about 300 P-51s. The bombers were attacked by only 28 hungarian Me-109s (there was no more in the HUAF). According to the reports of the P-51 pilots, they shot down 44(!) planes in this dogfight and losing 3.

44 from 28... And all were given as airkills - painted at the planes, etc. And this is just one example from many...

That miscredits such heroic stories.

[stratocat6]

I read a book about 13yrs. ago called "Thunderbolt", about Robert S. Johnson, Awesome!!

[burjegol]

yes, Thunderbolt by R.S. Johnson, a novice pilot who met the best of the luftwaffe's pilots, downed 27 aerial kills, the second highest in aerial kills i ETO, after his packmate Francis Gabreski. Many a pilot were made ace the rugged p-47 than any other US warplanes in WW II

[nairb2693]

whats with all the drama queens?

[jonboy1919]

These guys were true warriors, facing death head on, no fire and forget. These men and their generation preserved democracy and freedom. My hat is off to you gentlemen. Thanks for your service and sacrifice.

[therealbamlee]

@jonboy1919 I think the ordinary infantry men deserve the highest honors. they really did experience the horrors of war, close combat, fighting for your life with your bare hands sometimes. dont get me wrong, the fighter pilots rock, but its a hole different story. afterall they were sitting in a big metal thing firing on other big metal thing. not directly on a human, or fighting with a bayonett. hope you understand my point. no hard feelings though

[FoopDogg]

wow congrats.

[alielhaddad]

im the first to comment