One thing I've never understood about Christians, is how they think we are so filthy, dirty, sinful and evil, and then they go absolutely nuts at the notion that we and the apes have evolved from a common ancestor.
roflmfao, we are made in Gods image and we are filthy and dirty, what does that make god? So is god in need of God's cleansing? It sounds so strange to me, first to say we are all made in God's image and then say we are filthy and dirty and than assume that God is perfect, maybe it is time for a new book, the logic of Oz
Dude dnt ever communicate with me again get a life!II 've been nothing bt kind to you ,you are truly a hateful jerk leave me alone im happy an you are poison to my spirit,you are truly a miserable human being not worthy of anymore of my time
@royalcoils100 Nothing but kind my ass! You called me a jerk first, said I believed in nothing, and said I only believe what I believe because of my emotions.
And you hv the nerve to say im insulting you,you jst said knowing that im a christian,that all christians are self righteous jerks!you insulted me!Im done sir,if you dnt wanna believe dnt,nobodys gonna hold your hand and force you to believe,you are the one whose been sayiny thru our entire converstion that you dnt believe,an when i call you on it you get angry abt that!I hope you find your way in this world until then peace out!
@royalcoils100 I never said I don't believe in anything, I just said I don't believe in God. Don't misrepresent my beliefs. It would be like me saying that you worship Heaven.
I'm fine with ending the conversation here, but you aren't supposed to return an insult as a Christian. You're supposed to turn the other cheek.
@Zomnificent And you kno what christians are supposed to do huh,you use it when it suits you,an please let me ask you this is it jst christianity that you hv a problem with?What abt buddism,hinduism,chanting,I dnt think you are a bad person at all,as much as you an I disagree i can detect a loving spirit somewhere deep down in there,I believe you made your mind up years ago that you were nt gonna believe no matter what,hv you always been an atheist,if I may,do you come from a atheist family ?
@royalcoils100 Of course I only use it when it suits me - just like Christians. And of course I know what Christians are supposed to do - they brag to the mountaintops about their values all the time - they just never live up to them.
All religions are B.S.
How about you, do you just have a problem with atheists, or are you also against Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and everyone else? Are they all going to Hell, too?
@royalcoils100 I am a loving person, but I don't love you. You don't know me, and it's actually quite annoying that you think you can psychoanalyze me and tell me what made me an atheist. I told you, there's no evidence that God exists. Period.
I detect an atheist deep down within you, you're just believing because you're afraid to die. Have you always been a Christian? Do you come from a Christian family? Why aren't you a Muslim?
@royalcoils100 And actually, all I said was that every Christian I HAVE MET is a self-righteous jerk. Then you turned around and said that I'm the jerk, and I responded by saying you just proved me right. That's what actually happened. And now you're trying to distort the history.
We cld go on forever abt our beliefs,I kno im goin to heaven and im gonna live forever with my loved ones,i wnt be sick anymore,I will actually be able to see the face of God!The very thought makes me so very happy,i hv something to look forward too,something far beyond anything i cld imagine sir,an i believe it with all my heart,such a sad existence for nonbelievers this is where it begins and ends? well nt for me im goin to bow at the feet of Jesus!Im goin to be in the presence of the creator!
@royalcoils100 Every Christian I meet is a self-righteous jerk. Christianity itself is self-righteous and jerky. But that's beside the point. There's no evidence.
You haven't responded to even a few of my arguments. And you don't "know" that, you believe that without any good reason.
My existence is not sad. I enjoy it quite a lot. Life is worth living even if it doesn't last forever.
@Zomnificent If every christian you hv met is a self righteous jerk I STRONGLYsuggest YOU,take a look in the mirror,you sound angry and very unhappy you are mad at the world because you want someone to prove to you that God exists,you appear to be angry at those who do believe,has someome hurt you?Why are you so bitter?If heaven sounds boring to you then dnt go,dnt think abt it,ppl all over the world may hv different beliefs,bt they all believe in a higher power,you my friend believe in nothing.
@royalcoils100 No, I'm not the jerk. They come up to me pretending to be friendly. Turns out they just want to convert me.
Christianity teaches that I deserve to fry in hell for eternity. You believe that? If you do, you're right, that pisses me off.
I know you think I decide what I believe based on what I feel, because that's how you decide what you believe. I don't believe in God because there's no evidence. My lack of belief is not based on feelings.
@royalcoils100 I know you think I decide what I believe based on what I feel, because that's how you decide what you believe. I don't believe in God because there's no evidence. My lack of belief is not based on feelings.
I'm not a nihilist. I have moral values. I have beliefs. Further, millions of people around the world don't believe in God, and this new generation is going to be even more atheistic.
@royalcoils100 And by saying that I believe in nothing, you're calling me a nihilist. There you go insulting me, you just proved again that every Christian I meet is an asshole.
Sir I've read a few of your comments here,I can see that you are looking for something I actually think you wanna believe bt you're looking for something tangible,to me the evidence is all around us,when Jesus walked the earth he did nt force anyone to be a believer ,we hv free will,you cld never in a million yrs convince me other wise an maybe the same for you,all i can say is you gonna die one day then you will know for certain
@Zomnificent What is it that you wld like for me to tell you,that I've seen the face of God,you say that you are looking for the truth,which is exactly what I said you are clearly looking for something and that's a good thing.you shld seek the truth,bt I walk by faith nt by sight,and I hv responded to your arguments,i've given you many reasons why I am a believer,i thnk you've encountered sum self righteous jerk thay turned you off from the word of God,I believe an feel good abt it!
I kno my life means something i feel it in my heart,i certainly dnt hv all the answers,who knos the mind of God,he created and designed these bodies,his excellence is beyond my comprehension,he gave us four seasons,what abt this magnificent beating heart in my chest,surely i did nt jst create itself,and the human brain my God its design is beyond anything man cld do!And what i think abt the most is the red Blood that runs thru our veins!Where did it come frm,these bodies are surely a design
@royalcoils100 Revelation says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever." That indicates that Hell is eternal, otherwise, how could the smoke last forever? They would have to be burning forever.
But that's just a feeling. That's a feeling when you say it's all so beautiful and special. Is your only proof a feeling?
Also, why do you believe these things could not happen without God?
@Zomnificent Bt what abt your family and all of your loved ones,surely they are more than a fluke of nature,what explosion hv you ever seen create a perfect ball?The big bang theory does nt make sence,its more plausible for me to believe that a loving God created this beautiful earth with its cascading mountains,waterfalls,valleys,the rain that brings forth life,seasons,the warm summer breeze,day/night,its clearly evidence of a creator,how cld all of this jst come to be frm nothing?
@royalcoils100 Why should we be any different than we are if we evolved? It's worked pretty well. Point is, we'd be even better off in the wild if we had claws and sharp teeth. If we are the special creation of God, we should have those things.
Other animals can reason in basic ways. We aren't the only animal that reasons. We are the only one that builds gas chambers, though. Chimpanzees can reason, and they don't build gas chambers. Therefore, they are God's chosen creature, not us.
@Zomnificent The next time you see a chimpanzee abt to rip someone's face off,i want you to say "please dnt rip her face apart mr chimpanzee that's really gonna hurt" tell me what happens,and as far as me nt knowing anything abt the big bang theory were you there? Uh its pretty self explanatory something exploded right? Again this something exploded and created earth the sun and moon jst so happen to be there,gimme a break!
@royalcoils100 If a human is going to torture or gas me, begging them isn't going to stop it, either. Chimps don't torture, people do. I chalk that up as a win for the chimps. But sure, chimps can be violent, I'll grant that. There are animals that aren't.
Was I there when the Big Bang happened? What a silly argument. Were you there when God created the universe? What, he just waved a magic wand and "poof?"
We have proof of the Big Bang. Have you never taken a science class?
@royalcoils100 You're spitting on all the scientific knowledge we have and telling me an all-powerful wizard must have done it, and yet you think I'm the one with the crazy belief.
@royalcoils100 Man can't create black holes or mountains, either. The forces of nature are very powerful, and evolution is one of them. We evolved to be adapted to this world. The forces of nature created us and the universe.
There are some serious design flaws in the human body. Why do people get Parkinson's, cancer, and other diseases? Every organ we have can go wrong in a horrible way. If a God designed us, he didn't do a very good job.
@royalcoils100 We have hardly any natural defenses - no claws, no sharp teeth, we're small and soft, our babies are defenseless and must be cared for and raised over a long period of time, unlike many animal species, which stand up and walk immediately after being born, and grow very quickly.
@Zomnificent We do hv natural defenses,for one we hv dominionn over all animals in the world,the fact that we dnt hv sharp teeth and our babies are soft and defenseless further proves my point,if we had evolved wouldn't we hv all those things,we are Man,different and unique from any other animal creature on earth,capable of reason.
Why are atheist so mean and vulgar,we are preaching a message of love ,if you dnt like it why even come here,clearly you're looking for something,I think alot of you wannna believe bt you dnt wanna change the way you are living,bt you're so wrong when you become a believer your heart is open to so much love
@royalcoils100 People hated Osama bin Laden, too. Does that mean he was right?
Being hated doesn't mean you're right, it just means you're hated.
Christians have a twisted definition of love. To them, love means obedience. That's sick.
My definition of love is incompatible with a God who would send people to be eternally tortured. Would you do that to your children for disobeying you?
@Zomnificent So you mean you actually hate Kirk Cameron,I dnt hate anyone that's the difference between us sir,jst bc we dnt agree certainly does nt mean that I hate you,and that's what the word f the Bible teaches us,and you are certainly right of course i wnt nt want my babies to spend eternity in hell,bt let me ask you this what does Hitler deserve,he tortured an slaughtered 6 million men,women kids,BABIES!.......6 MILLION!!!!!!!Do you think he shld hv any judgement ? "
@royalcoils100 No, I don't personally hate Kirk Cameron. He's kind of annoying, but that's about the extent of my feelings about him.
Also, I doubt that you don't hate anyone. I think you hate Hitler, judging from what else you say.
I think Hitler deserves to suffer as much as all of his victims suffered, and once he is done suffering that much, he should be permanently killed. But your God makes the torture go on forever and ever. That's not proportionate. Justice must be proportionate.
@royalcoils100 There would come a point where Hitler had suffered an equal amount to all the suffering he caused, and at that point, justice would have been served. To continue torturing him beyond that would be injustice.
However, despite what I believe Hitler deserved, I don't think there is a Hell for him to go to. His life ended, he died, and that was the end of it. The universe is not just.
@Zomnificent Well I will tell you im studying the Bible and i still hv a lot to learn,from what i hv understood hell does nt go on forever in the human sence,you hv to remember we are dealing with the almighty creator of day/nite,the moon,stars,the complex human brain,its jst nt reasonable for me to believe my life,my kids,my mother,my dad,Love,is jst all a fluke that happened bc something blew up and created this beautiful earth,with birds that sing,blue skies,fragrant flowers.
@royalcoils100 Those are just the facts; there's no good reason to believe there is a Hell, and wishing there was doesn't make it so.
Let me flip it around: assuming that my worst sin is atheism, not believing in God, do you think I deserve to spend eternity in Hell? That's the punishment prescribed by Jesus.
Further, if only Christians get into Heaven, then a lot of the people Hitler had murdered are in Hell (Hitler actually killed 12 million in the death camps - 6 million were Jewish).
Kirk im amazed at the number of ppl who come to this sight to say hateful nasty things,you've said nothing hateful used no profanity,bt ppl say the most mean ,vile things to,which only confirms what you say,so many are being whispered to by satan,an dnt kno it,the very mention of Jesus evokes hate an evil in them jst like the Bible said it wld.
Funny, this from the same type of person who says: "telling kids they evolved from animals dehumanizes them!" What do you call telling people, especially kids, that they're dirty without God?
@SkepticalBliss No, God sent His Son to take your place so you wouldn't have to go to Hell. Yes, if you refuse His forgiveness and pardon for your sin, you damn yourself because you're already guilty of the crime. Who is the kind of person who rejects a free and good gift and would rather die and go to hell against God's desire? Certainly not me.
@Blessings2UForever . Baptism absolves us of a sin that happened 6000 years ago. And Jesus' death absolves us of our own sins. So explain why am I responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve? And if everyone is a dirty, filthy sinner and in need of Jesus' sacrifice, then maybe Christians expectations of the human race are unrealistic. It would appear that we were created with a desire to sin, because most of our human nature is sinful. Why were we designed to fail Yahweh's test in the first place?
@dragonmyst000 You might be speaking about the Catholic view of baptism, but the Bible does not say that about baptism. It serves as an expression of one's decision to become a new creation through Christ, but only faith in Jesus Christ saves a person. The expectations are not from Christians but from God Himself, Who gave us free will so that we could choose Him. The consequence of not choosing Him is to be separated from the Source of all good things; hell is a place devoid of all things good.
@Blessings2UForever I would NEVER choose hell nor would I EVER send anyone there. You are dead wrong, my friend! If your god is as all-powerful as you say, then HE is the one sending people to hell. People do not send themselves. Stop making lame excuses for your horrendous god! Isnt he is "god" enough to defend himself? Your god needs to start taking responsibility for his own actions. IF he is in control of EVERYTHING then HE IS sending people to hell - according to John 3:16... Read it
@SkepticalBliss John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him (the Son) would not perish but have everlasting life." Do you realize that Jesus took the punishment for you so that you would not have to go to hell even though you deserved the punishment but He did not? That is what this Scripture is all about- the LOVE of God- that He DOES NOT want you to go to hell! Why in the world would you not want to accept this free gift He is offering you?
@Blessings2UForever You are not asking the REAL QUESTION: Why would a so-called all-loving merciful god send anyone to hell in the first place? Why should ANYONE have to suffer unending pain for ALL ETERNITY? A truly merciful god could rehabilitate these souls or if they are so evil, make them just not exist anymore - that is mercy. Your god is NOT all-loving and merciful. He is a masochist - keeping souls alive simply so they can BURN for an ETERNITY is SICK! Think about THAT...
@SkepticalBliss Yeah, wouldn't that make it easier on you so that you wouldn't have to pay for what you've done wrong? By the way, you're missing the whole message of the Gospel: that Jesus paid the price for you so that you would NOT HAVE TO go to hell! Why would you complain about hell if you don't have to go there? Hell was originally created for Satan, but anyone who follows Satan by not following God goes where Satan goes. How about answering the REAL QUESTION at the end of my last comment?
"He did all he could to save you" If your god did all it could to save someone it would reveal its existence directly to everyone rather than staying hidden and planting doubts in peoples minds about faith
@ComradeAH1994 That's because faith by biblical definition is "being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you cannot see." Faith means believing not necessarily by seeing but by knowing spiritually, otherwise there would be no such thing as belief, only observation. Faith allows people who want to serve God to choose to believe in Him, while those who do not cannot feel forced into it, but judgment for your decision comes after you die and have to meet Him face to face.
@Zomnificent The good news is that you have a choice NOT to "burn in hell for eternity" by believing in Jesus Christ and accepting Him as your Savior and Lord. And that's true for 100% of humanity.
@Blessings2UForever I think it would be better news if there was no such thing as hell. That's the good news of atheism.
I can't really bring myself to believe in God. It's too absurd. It's like asking me to make myself believe there are gnomes on my shoulders. I just can't.
Belief isn't a choice. I can't make myself believe that I'm actually a tall, grey building or a glass of water.
I wouldn't want to worship a God who sends anyone to eternal torture, anyway.
@Zomnificent I believe in God, you seem not to believe in God. It’s a choice.
The subject of the existence of God is a very weighty one that deserves investigation. I believe that as you earnestly seek to find out more about God that He will reveal Himself to you personally in innumerable ways.
@Blessings2UForever (continued) It’s His promise: “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13). That is why I have never met anyone who has truly sought God and never found Him; they always make excuses like I don’t believe in God so why should I seek Him? and therefore have not sought Him with their whole heart, but those who do find Him. That is why it is a choice: you decide whether or not to seek Him. Sorry for the LONG response.
@Blessings2UForever No, I don't believe in God, and it's not a choice. I have to see evidence of it in order to believe it. If I do see that evidence, I will believe. But I see no evidence.
You say that things science cannot explain are proof of God. That's not so. All it would mean is that there's something we don't know yet. Just because science cannot explain it now doesn't mean it will never explain it. It also doesn't mean that God is the answer anymore than it means leprechauns are.
@Zomnificent I also wonder, to which things are you referring?
Hell is no mere jailhouse, it is an eternal torture chamber. Why should I want to seek this God that you worship, "with my heart," if he tortures people forever? He's clearly evil, and "offering the gift of salvation" is like a mobster saying he won't break my kneecaps if I give him $200 a week. The God you worship created the threat he is "generously offering" to save me from. It's just blackmail, and it's evil.
My reason tells me that the God you believe in doesn't exist. There's no evidence in the first place, and there are dozens of internal contradictions with the unclear concept of God. There's no good reason to believe in God and plenty of good arguments to believe that God doesn't exist.
My emotions and moral intuitions tell me that the God you worship is an evil character, and I wouldn't worship him even if he did exist - not even to save myself from Hell.
I would not sit in Heaven singing the praises of an evil dictator when I knew that millions or billions of people were suffering in a concentration camp that he created. If that's the "salvation" God offers, I'd rather spit in his face and burn with the sinners.
@Zomnificent God loves you and does not want you to go to hell, but by rejecting Him you are essentially saying "God, I don't want Your free gift." He did all He could to save you, but the choice is yours of whether you want to be saved or not- He will not force you because He gave you free will. Salvation, therefore, is still a choice.
@Blessings2UForever Sorry, Blessings2UForever, but that is not a "choice". It is similar to this: I am going to vote and when I get there, someone points a gun to my head and says, "You have a choice - vote for Obama and I will let you go on your way. Vote for McCain and I will pull this trigger. Remember, you have a choice..."
@Zomnificent Just because something cannot be proved scientifically does not mean it does not exist. You seem to have alot of faith in science, even to the point of predicting that it will uncover "things we just don't know yet"- that is the very definition of faith: believing in what you cannot see. I believe that many things that science cannot explain never will be explained by science because they are miracles, divine acts of God, and by nature "supernatural," beyond scientific explanation.
@Zomnificent God cannot be proved or disproved by science alone and never was meant to be. The Bible says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). Thus, God chooses to reveal Himself spiritually, and that is how He is found, although He also manifests his power in the physical way of miracles as mentioned previously, and mainly through the Person of Jesus Christ.
@Zomnificent Now that you know the way to God, you have no reason not to find Him, unless you refuse to seek Him and the Gift of His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for your sin. Thus, you are sending yourself to hell, because God is just and cannot allow sin to live with Him forever. That is why Jesus came and died because only He could could be punished in your place so you can be with God. He's already paid the price for your salvation; all you have to do is accept it.
@Blessings2UForever But Christianity is only 1 of 4000 religions, most of which state theirs is the only true religion. Why is Christianity any more valid then any of the other religions? Just because a book says so?
Besides, just because Yahweh impregnated his virgin mortal daughter so he can have a divine son, that he then had his mortal children kill in order to erase a sin caused by his first mortal children 4000 years earlier that we are still being punished for? How is that fair?
@dragonmyst000 Jesus is the only way to God because He is the only One who was perfect and gave His life you to pay the penalty for your sin. God is completely righteous and allows no evil in His presence. Without Christ, there would be no way for God to accept us into heaven. Christianity deals with the problem of our sin and the justice of God that doesn't excuse evil but that He made a way for us to be with Him because of His love for us.
@Zomnificent Yeah, you would rather not be held accountable at all for all of the wrong things you have done, but just like in a court of law, you're not going to get off the hook that easily. The only way for you to be set free is if someone pays the price for your freedom. Jesus did that, and if you are willing to accept His gift and live a life that honors Him, you will be saved. Refusal leaves you without this hope. That is the good news of the Gospel.
@Blessings2UForever I have done nothing wrong, and certainly nothing worthy of eternal torment. I'm not guilty of anything.
If Jesus pays the price, how is that justice? Justice is punishing the one who did the crime. If I receive jail time, my nice grandma can't take the punishment for me. That's morally corrupt. Your religion is all about telling people they can dodge guilt for things they should feel legitimately guilty about because "Jesus forgives them." Jesus doesn't have the right.
Furthermore, if God invented Hell and then incarnates as someone to "save me" from his own evil punishment, I give him no credit for that. It's a racket. It's like God telling me to pay him off or he'll break my kneecaps. He's a thug. So there's nothing "good" about your religion; it's evil.
Your religion invents the disease and then offers us the cure - but it costs an arm and a leg. It's little more than a con game.
I also don't understand why you keep arguing with me. I've already pointed out that even if you convince me that your God is real, I would rather burn in Hell than shackle myself to a tyrant.
@Zomnificent Alright, let's take the test Kirk Cameron here uses: Have you ever told a lie? Have you taken something that didn't belong to you, even something small? Have you ever used the name of God as a curse word? Have you ever looked at a woman/man and lusted after that person? If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, then you have sinned according to God's ten commandments and deserve His punishment.
@Blessings2UForever I don't understand your need to apply your religions rules to everyone, Christianity is only 1 of 4000 different religions in the world today. And your own Bible states that Yahweh is not the only God, the Bible lists 27 other God and Goddess by name. So how can you categorically state that yours is the only real God and religion? If it's your religion then you live by the rules of your religion, let everyone else live by the rules of their religion.
@dragonmyst000 Hey, you're the one who wanted to know about these things, and it's not like I am butting into anyone's business here if you asked me questions that I am simply answering. By the way, I do live by my faith and can tell you it's the most wonderful experience because it's living the way you were intended. The only reason Christians tell others is so that you can spend eternity with Him in heaven, all because of what Jesus Christ has done for you.
@Blessings2UForever But don't you see that Christians like Kirk and yourself do more to drive people away from Christianity then anything. All we hear is, I'm better then you, my God is better, only our book is holy, I know more, I'm right, I'm saved. You sound very egotistical and proud, which is exactly what God commands against. The approach most Christians take in discussing their beliefs automatically makes people defensive. So is it any wonder people respond as they do to you?
@dragonmyst000 No, I do not claim to be better than you at all. As one person put it, sharing the Gospel is like one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread. Just because I know the "Bread of Life" doesn't mean I think I am better than you, but it does mean I have a responsibility to tell others the good news. If this turns you off, then by all means go about finding God in a way that suits you, but just make sure you actually find the truth.
@dragonmyst000 The truth about God is not relative. There is only one way to heaven, and that is through accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Believing otherwise is doing oneself a huge disservice that has enormous consequences for you in the end. Why not let God into your life and prove to you Himself that He is God???
@dragonmyst000 Read the posts. On the contrary, Christians treat non-Christians with decency and talk to them with a civil tongue while on the other hand the atheists use foul language and name-calling and claim to be better than God?? Clearly, you are blind to your own misbehavior and wrongly interpret someone telling you good news with thinking they are superior to you. Concerning your accusation, the shoe is on the other foot.
@Blessings2UForever First off, I am the furthest thing from an Atheist, so please do not lump us all together. I simply have a real hard time with someone who can't stand to believe that I could be right in the religion I have practiced for most of my life. Someone who insists that my God is not valid and that I must follow their vengeful and jealous God rather then my loving and joyful God. And yes I was Christian and was reborn, but then I grew up and saw the hypocrisy in the "Good News".
@dragonmyst000 Then what do you consider yourself? And what hypocrisy are you talking about? From man or God Himself? Did not God show you during your experience with Him about Himself and how to understand the world around you, since you claim to be "born again," which means you have the mind of Christ through which you are able to comprehend the things of God that the world calls foolish? (1 Cor 2:14) Were you really born again or did you just go through the motions without really meaning it?
@dragonmyst000 By the way, I have to be going soon, so don't feel pressured to answer right away unless you want to because I won't be able to respond until later anyways. Have a nice day...
@Blessings2UForever I don't give a fuck about Kirk Cameron's test. He's a dimwit. But I'll humor you.
Yes, I've told lies. I have never taken something that didn't belong to me. I use "Jesus fucking Christ!" and "god damn it!" all the time. I lust after women all the time.
None of these things mean I "deserve" eternal torture, yet you worship a God who prescribes such an unjust punishment. You are vastly more immoral than I am, because you call that "justice" and "good."
Further, what kind of God creates such a harsh commandment that NONE of his creatures can live up to it? It's the kind of God that damns most of his creatures to eternal torture. As I've clearly said several times now, fuck that God. He's evil.
The main point, though, is that you have done nothing to prove to me that this boogeyman is even real. That's why Kirk Cameron's test, above all else, is meaningless and will never persuade any atheist.
I don't care what your God thinks because he doesn't exist.
If you knew your apologetics, you'd understand that the test Cameron uses is designed to be used against people who already believe in God and think of themselves as good Christians, but aren't quite fundamentalist enough for his liking.
@Zomnificent It's God's definition of justice and His judgment that you will have to face one day. Like it or not, you have broken His law and must be given the penalty. The very fact that there is a sense of justice in you proves that God exists, because God placed His law in every heart so that you even know you did wrong. God made a way so that you wouldn't have to pay your penalty by paying it for you with His own life. I hope you come to understand this one day. Until then, I'm praying 4 u.
@Blessings2UForever No, I won't have to face God's "judgment," because there is no god. But if your god exists, I will take the penalty with pride, and I'll flip him the bird as I descend into the flames.
I don't believe I've done anything seriously wrong. The God you worship is wrong, and my sense of justice is superior. Your God punishes people in ways that are unjust, and lets guilty people off the hook just for groveling at his feet.
@Zomnificent So what kind of punishment do ppl like Hitler and Pol Pot deserve, if your sense of justice is superior? You judge based on a human perspective in comparison to other humans, thinking that b/c you may not be as bad as these guys, then you deserve better than them. However, from God's perspective, your "righteousness is like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6), because His standard is perfection, and He does not allow anything unclean into His presence, but through Jesus we can be made clean.
@Blessings2UForever First and foremost, am I as bad as Hitler and Pol Pot? No! So why the hell do you think I deserve the same punishment as them? That's injustice. You believe in a religion where if Hitler had sincerely repented after killing 12 million people and accepted Christ into his heart, he would be in Heaven, while I go to Hell simply for the crime of not believing in a god who provides no evidence. According to your religion, Jeffrey Dahmer is in Heaven, and Gandhi's in Hell.
Also, you claim I can't understand God's superior perspective. How can you? You're just a human. You read this book, and you call it good based on your own perspective. So if you can evaluate God to be good, I can evaluate God to be evil.
God does almost nothing but viciously kill people for the slightest infractions throughout the whole Old Testament. I can hardly think of a single good thing he does.
The human perspective is the only perspective. The Bible was just written by humans.
There is no God. You claim to speak for God, but really you are adopting the ignorant perspective of first-century goat herders and being arrogant about it. You are completely misguided, and you don't really understand morality. You haven't even thought about it.
If God has a completely different standard than humans do, why should we follow his standard? That doesn't make sense. God's actions seem wrong to us, so we should go with our perspective.
Your god creates humanity in such a way that it cannot even understand right and wrong - and then punishes them for it unless they OBEY. That's the only thing God cares about. Morality doesn't matter to God - as I pointed out, Jeffrey Dahmer the serial killer and rapist will be in Heaven, because he repented and proclaimed Jesus as his lord.
So all the horrible things he did to other human beings don't matter to God. That means that human life is utterly worthless in God's eyes. That's evil.
@Blessings2UForever Aside from being quite repetitive, it has some serious problems as a moral code. It says not to go near a menstruating woman. Do you follow that command?
This also says that the son will not be punished for what his father did. But that completely goes against earlier parts of the Bible, where God does exactly that. He punishes whole generations of people. He curses the whole world because of Adam and Eve disobeying, and curses all women to have labor pains as punishment.
Further, it says nothing about belief. In fact, it says the opposite. It says all you have to do is follow God's commandments (be a morally good person), and you will be rewarded.
Then of course, earlier in the Bible you have God commanding his people to slaughter entire cities indiscriminately, and even doing it himself - to Sodom and Gomorrah, to the Egyptians, to the whole world during the Flood. God kills more people than anyone else in the Bible. But Ezekiel says you shouldn't be violent.
@Zomnificent A person is not to be violent individually but it is allowed for the cause of war. God cleared out masses of people because He knew that they would become a stumbling block and have an immoral influence on His people otherwise. In the end, He will judge all mankind similarly. Those who have chosen to obey Him will live with Him forever, and those who chose not to believe and accept Christ will be punished. Once you know the truth and do not act on it then there is no excuse for you.
@Zomnificent He is God, He can choose to judge however He wants, but His judgments are always fair- that is, the righteous are eternally blessed and the unrighteous get what they deserve.
@Blessings2UForever I pointed out that God contradicts himself. He breaks his own laws. He's a hypocrite.
No, his judgments are not fair. When he said in the Bible that people must put disobedient children to death, or kill witches, or kill homosexuals and adulterers, he was wrong. Why don't we do it today? Do you believe that was ever right?
Might doesn't make right, but you seem to believe it does. You are morally confused, a total relativist.
@Zomnificent Looks like you couldn't wait to shoot off one of your negative comments before I had a chance to respond. I have a life outside of staring in front of my computer. Let me say this then- I am not here to argue with you. I will argue with you because I know God personally and He has revealed Himself to me in undeniable ways but there is no way to help you if you don't want or are not seeking help. I just I pray that one day something will cause you to consider what you have been told.
@Blessings2UForever God "cleared out masses of people" because they would be "a stumbling block" for "His people"? That's called genocide, and it is evil. So is selecting one group of people over all the rest. That sounds very much like the "Master race."
He will judge all mankind similarly? Not the Moabites. He just wiped them out completely. What chance did they have to accept him - they weren't the "Chosen People"?
A God that thinks it's acceptable to murder millions of human beings is evil
My comment wasn't an insult, it was my estimation of the truth. You worship a God who commanded his followers to murder infants, and you call that God "good." That clearly means you are morally confused. But since you believe that it's right to kill millions of people indiscriminately - men, women, children, even babies - for the will of God, you're not just confused. You're evil.
I have a life outside of staring at my computer, too. Responding to your messages only takes around 5 minutes.
@Zomnificent God also knows the hearts of man, whether they would change or not. There were individuals in those people groups who turned to God and He spared them and allowed them to join the Israelite tribes. Look up Ruth (a Moabite) and Rahab, both people outside the nation of Israel who were accepted into it because they acknowledged God. Also see the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where God promised to spare the whole city for 10 righteous people but there were not and God saved the righteous.
@Blessings2UForever My point is that we could go on arguing just about forever with all your questions about the Bible and accusations against Christianity and me having to explain every point and respond to every accusation, or you could find out for yourself the answers. The Scripture is true that says "the natural man cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned" meaning you will never get the Bible unless someone with the Spirit of God explains it to you, or...
@Blessings2UForever ... you become open enough to the Spirit to let God reveal these things to you, which would require you to approach the Word of God with the sincere desire to understand rather than bash it.
@Blessings2UForever I don't really care if God let a few of them survive - he wiped out whole villages, killed babies, and ordered his followers to kill babies and children.
Maybe I sent the wrong impression. I didn't mean to make it seem like if God spared a handful of the people he was murdering and ordering to be murdered along the way, it would be okay. I don't recognize that God has a right to subjugate people, any more than any human does.
Even if they had all converted and he spared all of them, it would still be evil.
There weren't 10 righteous people in two whole cities? What about the children? Were they all evil?
Not only this, but this story points out Abraham using his own conscience to disagree with and challenge God. Abraham doesn't just blindly follow whatever God says. Why should anyone?
I want to make it clear that I am only responding to your claims.
I have studied the Bible. There's simply nothing compelling in it. I approached it with an open mind when I was a child, and when I got to the Flood, I was horrified.
What I think you mean when you say "approach the Word of God with the sincere desire to understand," is really to shut off my conscience and gloss over the evil parts of the book. You want me to give it a pass.
If I am to have any desire to take another look at this book, I need to hear some convincing responses to my moral objections.
You claim to have the Spirit of God guiding you. Are you sincerely trying to explain it to me? Because none of your answers have satisfied my objections. None of it makes any sense to me.
@Zomnificent Ok don't claim to know my motivations and you have no reason to question my sincerety. Being open does not mean "glossing over" or "giving a pass"- it means to consider without the intent of bashing like I said because by doing that you are actually "glossing over" the parts that would refute your points because your eyes aren't even open to them. As for my sincerety, you can trust it because I don't get anything by helping you, only b/c I care. Doesn't satisfy? That's your problem.
@Blessings2UForever In my beliefs I need to look at the intent behind the actions. Why does God spend the first 4000 years of the Bible being jealous and vengeful, killing and punishing his own mortal children. If we have free will, then why does God force people to do what he wanted? Why does God punish people that exercise free will? That really isn't free is it. And if a man is called wicked for killing, shouldn't the same apply to God? Why doesn't God have to live by his own rules?
@Zomnificent Of course you wouldn't say that you care- unless that was you- because it doesn't help your point. However, it demonstrates the mercy of God on those whose hearts are right with Him. These are not just a few: Ninevah was a vey wicked city who had murdered many of God's prophets, so God sent Jonah to tell the people that if they didn't repent then He would destroy the city. When they did, God spared the city. One thing that God has above humans is that He judges by the heart of man.
@Blessings2UForever Those whose hearts are right with him, or those that suck up to him and beg for their lives out of fear? That's what it seems like to me. Genocide is genocide, even if God spares a few people.
The whole city is not guilty. That just doesn't happen in reality. There are babies and children living in every city. They do not commit murder or share any guilt in it.
You haven't explained any of this in a way that justifies the sheer evil of it. Therefore, I think you must be glossing over it. I'm not questioning your motive, I'm questioning your thought process. It seems like you are ignoring a vast amount of evil and poiinting to the tiny amount of good in the Bible. It doesn't justify the evil that's there.
And I pointed out that God sparing people on the condition that they worship him utterly is not moral.
He has just coerced them into bowing - he subjugated them. When Genghis Khan rides into town from the plains and threatens to kill everyone if they don't give him whatever he wants, it isn't moral that he spares people on the condition that they give him their possessions. He is still robbing them.
When hostage-takers spares the hostages becuase their demands were met, that is not evidence that they are good.
The God of the Bible blackmails people into worshiping him with threats of death and violence. When they comply, he spares them, but enslaves them.
If you manage to convince me, that strengthens your faith and raises your self-esteem. You would get something by convincing me. You prove to yourself that you were right. The problem is that the only people the Bible can persuade are those that already believe in it. Everyone else recognizes how absurd and vile it is.
Understand it from my perspective. You are telling me that this god is good and praiseworthy. So I look at his actions and judge them according to my conscience, and he clearly appears to be evil. Yet you keep telling me he is good. So either you believe that evil is good, or you are glossing over the evil and not weighting it properly in your evaluation.
@Zomnificent hi, back from break. sorry it took so long to respond again. i read all your comments and basically the way i see it, it's a matter of perspective, like seeing the glass half full or half empty. you choose to see the things God has done as evil without understanding the reasoning behind them, some of which i have tried to explain to you, and ignore all the good He has done. i would be glad to continue this convo, but i don't think it really does much good without an attitude change.
@Blessings2UForever Can you remind me as to how you justified any of God's evil actions? The last thing I remember, you actually raised a bunch of problems, and then didn't provide justifications for them. The only thing you said was that he spared a few of them. But he didn't have the right to kill anybody. At the very least, he didn't have the right to kill babies of enemy tribes.
I hold God to objective standards, the same standards I hold everyone else to. If a human had done all of the things God did, demanding that everyone bow down or die, and then massacring all the people that didn't bow, you would call it evil. You give God a pass because you don't apply morality to God. I don't think you understand the reason behind the actions. Why does God tell his people to cut the babies out of the wombs, and slaughter every living thing?
The only thing that would change my perspective is if I shut off my conscience, or every action was justified to me. I don't believe you understand the intent behind God's actions, you just accept that God is right by default, by ignoring evil that you would condemn if anyone else was doing it.
God is supposed to be all-good. I'd have to change the definition of good if I wanted to apply it to the God of the Bible.
You also asked why God would be so wrathful and vengeful, and then changes. How do you explain that? Did morality completely change? For example, is it right to stone disobedient children to death? If your child talks back to you, do you drag him out in the yard and hit him with rocks until he dies? That's what God himself commands you to do! How do you explain that? Was that ever good? Does morality simply change with human culture?
My view is that it was always wrong to hit humans with rocks until they die because of the pain it caused the human. Do you have a moral view that is better?
@Zomnificent Most of your questions apply to the cultural context of the OT. Back then, that's the way they did things. They didn't have electric chairs and other technology that we have today, including bombs that completely wipe out villages in order to protect the majority. To answer the other point, God is Judge over all creation. In a court of law, only a judge has the authority to punish someone after trial in order to ensure guilt, but God Who knows everything is perfect in His judgment.
@Blessings2UForever But I must make the point that there is an easier and far more efficient way of handling this matter. Me answering all of your questions is like trying to convince a blind person of the existance of color, but one glimpse of sight could solve everything. The opportunity for a "glimpse" is offered to you today- in the form of asking God to reveal Himself to you yourself!
@Blessings2UForever Do you think the Bible is man-made? Because that's what you're saying when you talk about the "cultural context." In the Bible, God tells the Israelites directly what to do. Does God change with the times? No, God is said to have dictated the laws. He made the cultural context.
Further, talking about cultural context is flatly contradicted by what's actually in the Bible. God himself commands these massacres, commands them to slay every living thing, including the animals!
So you either have to assert that it's right for God to command that, say it's wrong, or say that those passages are incorrect.
It's not moral to completely wipe out villages. That's indiscriminate killing.
I disagree. Judges can rule incorrectly. It seems clear that from the judgments God supposedly makes in the Bible, he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
Most of my questions are theological and intellectual in nature. I'm asking about the morals of the Bible.
If you are guided by God to have a greater understanding than I have, you can explain it to me.
Blind people can still understand the existence of color, but they can't experience it. Color is based on light waves, something we can use science to demonstrate. You haven't demonstrated God.
Telling me to ask God anything is nonsensical. I don't believe in God. It's like me telling you to ask Santa Claus to send you a million dollars. You don't talk to things you don't believe exist.
Further, if I were to "ask God" and reported to you that nothing happened, you would just say I didn't ask hard enough, or I wasn't serious enough. Since you claim to have contact with God, why don't you ask him to send me evidence to persuade me, like he did with Doubting Thomas?
And why has God made his presence known to you, and not me? Seems like he's picking favorites.
Gawd dunit
kraqore79 1 week ago
Im a Christian and I need cleansing cuz i think Kirk is HOT! So going to go repent LOL
MusicSoul39 2 months ago
One thing I've never understood about Christians, is how they think we are so filthy, dirty, sinful and evil, and then they go absolutely nuts at the notion that we and the apes have evolved from a common ancestor.
DandAinTac 2 months ago
I'm still trying to find the video clip where Kirk is preaching to a bunch of gays and he gets beat up by a scrawny little tranny!
somethingdiffereable 3 months ago
Speak for yourself Kirk.
wachnathan 3 months ago
what an idiot
podoau 5 months ago
Funny how Gord's cleansing can't wash away this guy's bullshit.
jeanmanuforti 5 months ago 3
roflmfao, we are made in Gods image and we are filthy and dirty, what does that make god? So is god in need of God's cleansing? It sounds so strange to me, first to say we are all made in God's image and then say we are filthy and dirty and than assume that God is perfect, maybe it is time for a new book, the logic of Oz
RzzRBladez 5 months ago
Please send soap and water. I don't want to be filthy dirty.
asajdera3 6 months ago
This guy is a lunatic.
thecosmos003 6 months ago
Dude dnt ever communicate with me again get a life!II 've been nothing bt kind to you ,you are truly a hateful jerk leave me alone im happy an you are poison to my spirit,you are truly a miserable human being not worthy of anymore of my time
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 Nothing but kind my ass! You called me a jerk first, said I believed in nothing, and said I only believe what I believe because of my emotions.
I'll stop responding when you do.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
And you hv the nerve to say im insulting you,you jst said knowing that im a christian,that all christians are self righteous jerks!you insulted me!Im done sir,if you dnt wanna believe dnt,nobodys gonna hold your hand and force you to believe,you are the one whose been sayiny thru our entire converstion that you dnt believe,an when i call you on it you get angry abt that!I hope you find your way in this world until then peace out!
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 I never said I don't believe in anything, I just said I don't believe in God. Don't misrepresent my beliefs. It would be like me saying that you worship Heaven.
I'm fine with ending the conversation here, but you aren't supposed to return an insult as a Christian. You're supposed to turn the other cheek.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@Zomnificent And you kno what christians are supposed to do huh,you use it when it suits you,an please let me ask you this is it jst christianity that you hv a problem with?What abt buddism,hinduism,chanting,I dnt think you are a bad person at all,as much as you an I disagree i can detect a loving spirit somewhere deep down in there,I believe you made your mind up years ago that you were nt gonna believe no matter what,hv you always been an atheist,if I may,do you come from a atheist family ?
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 Of course I only use it when it suits me - just like Christians. And of course I know what Christians are supposed to do - they brag to the mountaintops about their values all the time - they just never live up to them.
All religions are B.S.
How about you, do you just have a problem with atheists, or are you also against Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and everyone else? Are they all going to Hell, too?
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 I am a loving person, but I don't love you. You don't know me, and it's actually quite annoying that you think you can psychoanalyze me and tell me what made me an atheist. I told you, there's no evidence that God exists. Period.
I detect an atheist deep down within you, you're just believing because you're afraid to die. Have you always been a Christian? Do you come from a Christian family? Why aren't you a Muslim?
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 Also, you're the one who came here. What makes you think we want to hear about Jesus?
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 And actually, all I said was that every Christian I HAVE MET is a self-righteous jerk. Then you turned around and said that I'm the jerk, and I responded by saying you just proved me right. That's what actually happened. And now you're trying to distort the history.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
You keep proving it yourself,have a nice life.
royalcoils100 8 months ago
We cld go on forever abt our beliefs,I kno im goin to heaven and im gonna live forever with my loved ones,i wnt be sick anymore,I will actually be able to see the face of God!The very thought makes me so very happy,i hv something to look forward too,something far beyond anything i cld imagine sir,an i believe it with all my heart,such a sad existence for nonbelievers this is where it begins and ends? well nt for me im goin to bow at the feet of Jesus!Im goin to be in the presence of the creator!
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 Every Christian I meet is a self-righteous jerk. Christianity itself is self-righteous and jerky. But that's beside the point. There's no evidence.
You haven't responded to even a few of my arguments. And you don't "know" that, you believe that without any good reason.
My existence is not sad. I enjoy it quite a lot. Life is worth living even if it doesn't last forever.
What will you do in Heaven? It sounds boring.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@Zomnificent If every christian you hv met is a self righteous jerk I STRONGLYsuggest YOU,take a look in the mirror,you sound angry and very unhappy you are mad at the world because you want someone to prove to you that God exists,you appear to be angry at those who do believe,has someome hurt you?Why are you so bitter?If heaven sounds boring to you then dnt go,dnt think abt it,ppl all over the world may hv different beliefs,bt they all believe in a higher power,you my friend believe in nothing.
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 No, I'm not the jerk. They come up to me pretending to be friendly. Turns out they just want to convert me.
Christianity teaches that I deserve to fry in hell for eternity. You believe that? If you do, you're right, that pisses me off.
I know you think I decide what I believe based on what I feel, because that's how you decide what you believe. I don't believe in God because there's no evidence. My lack of belief is not based on feelings.
And now you're insulting me.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 I know you think I decide what I believe based on what I feel, because that's how you decide what you believe. I don't believe in God because there's no evidence. My lack of belief is not based on feelings.
I'm not a nihilist. I have moral values. I have beliefs. Further, millions of people around the world don't believe in God, and this new generation is going to be even more atheistic.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 And by saying that I believe in nothing, you're calling me a nihilist. There you go insulting me, you just proved again that every Christian I meet is an asshole.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
Sir I've read a few of your comments here,I can see that you are looking for something I actually think you wanna believe bt you're looking for something tangible,to me the evidence is all around us,when Jesus walked the earth he did nt force anyone to be a believer ,we hv free will,you cld never in a million yrs convince me other wise an maybe the same for you,all i can say is you gonna die one day then you will know for certain
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 You've barely read any of my comments. You aren't responding to any of my arguments. Most Christians do the same thing.
I'm looking for the truth. That's why I don't believe in God.
And what do you think comes after death? Do you think Jesus sends me to Hell? Then what was the point of creating me? Think about that.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@Zomnificent What is it that you wld like for me to tell you,that I've seen the face of God,you say that you are looking for the truth,which is exactly what I said you are clearly looking for something and that's a good thing.you shld seek the truth,bt I walk by faith nt by sight,and I hv responded to your arguments,i've given you many reasons why I am a believer,i thnk you've encountered sum self righteous jerk thay turned you off from the word of God,I believe an feel good abt it!
royalcoils100 8 months ago
I kno my life means something i feel it in my heart,i certainly dnt hv all the answers,who knos the mind of God,he created and designed these bodies,his excellence is beyond my comprehension,he gave us four seasons,what abt this magnificent beating heart in my chest,surely i did nt jst create itself,and the human brain my God its design is beyond anything man cld do!And what i think abt the most is the red Blood that runs thru our veins!Where did it come frm,these bodies are surely a design
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 Revelation says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever." That indicates that Hell is eternal, otherwise, how could the smoke last forever? They would have to be burning forever.
But that's just a feeling. That's a feeling when you say it's all so beautiful and special. Is your only proof a feeling?
Also, why do you believe these things could not happen without God?
Man is pretty small in the scale of the universe.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@Zomnificent Bt what abt your family and all of your loved ones,surely they are more than a fluke of nature,what explosion hv you ever seen create a perfect ball?The big bang theory does nt make sence,its more plausible for me to believe that a loving God created this beautiful earth with its cascading mountains,waterfalls,valleys,the rain that brings forth life,seasons,the warm summer breeze,day/night,its clearly evidence of a creator,how cld all of this jst come to be frm nothing?
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 No, they're a fluke of nature, like everything else. Why would that change anything?
I don't believe that you even know the first thing about the Big Bang theory.
Look at all the disease, ugliness, and evil in the world. Why don't you factor that in when you consider whether it's the creation of a loving God?
We don't have dominion. If you're dropped in the ocean, the sharks have dominion over you. It's a matter of where you are.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 Why should we be any different than we are if we evolved? It's worked pretty well. Point is, we'd be even better off in the wild if we had claws and sharp teeth. If we are the special creation of God, we should have those things.
Other animals can reason in basic ways. We aren't the only animal that reasons. We are the only one that builds gas chambers, though. Chimpanzees can reason, and they don't build gas chambers. Therefore, they are God's chosen creature, not us.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@Zomnificent The next time you see a chimpanzee abt to rip someone's face off,i want you to say "please dnt rip her face apart mr chimpanzee that's really gonna hurt" tell me what happens,and as far as me nt knowing anything abt the big bang theory were you there? Uh its pretty self explanatory something exploded right? Again this something exploded and created earth the sun and moon jst so happen to be there,gimme a break!
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 If a human is going to torture or gas me, begging them isn't going to stop it, either. Chimps don't torture, people do. I chalk that up as a win for the chimps. But sure, chimps can be violent, I'll grant that. There are animals that aren't.
Was I there when the Big Bang happened? What a silly argument. Were you there when God created the universe? What, he just waved a magic wand and "poof?"
We have proof of the Big Bang. Have you never taken a science class?
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 The moon and the Sun were not created as they are by the Big Bang. Come on, take a science class.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 You're spitting on all the scientific knowledge we have and telling me an all-powerful wizard must have done it, and yet you think I'm the one with the crazy belief.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 Man can't create black holes or mountains, either. The forces of nature are very powerful, and evolution is one of them. We evolved to be adapted to this world. The forces of nature created us and the universe.
There are some serious design flaws in the human body. Why do people get Parkinson's, cancer, and other diseases? Every organ we have can go wrong in a horrible way. If a God designed us, he didn't do a very good job.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 We have hardly any natural defenses - no claws, no sharp teeth, we're small and soft, our babies are defenseless and must be cared for and raised over a long period of time, unlike many animal species, which stand up and walk immediately after being born, and grow very quickly.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@Zomnificent We do hv natural defenses,for one we hv dominionn over all animals in the world,the fact that we dnt hv sharp teeth and our babies are soft and defenseless further proves my point,if we had evolved wouldn't we hv all those things,we are Man,different and unique from any other animal creature on earth,capable of reason.
royalcoils100 8 months ago
Why are atheist so mean and vulgar,we are preaching a message of love ,if you dnt like it why even come here,clearly you're looking for something,I think alot of you wannna believe bt you dnt wanna change the way you are living,bt you're so wrong when you become a believer your heart is open to so much love
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 People hated Osama bin Laden, too. Does that mean he was right?
Being hated doesn't mean you're right, it just means you're hated.
Christians have a twisted definition of love. To them, love means obedience. That's sick.
My definition of love is incompatible with a God who would send people to be eternally tortured. Would you do that to your children for disobeying you?
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@Zomnificent So you mean you actually hate Kirk Cameron,I dnt hate anyone that's the difference between us sir,jst bc we dnt agree certainly does nt mean that I hate you,and that's what the word f the Bible teaches us,and you are certainly right of course i wnt nt want my babies to spend eternity in hell,bt let me ask you this what does Hitler deserve,he tortured an slaughtered 6 million men,women kids,BABIES!.......6 MILLION!!!!!!!Do you think he shld hv any judgement ? "
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 No, I don't personally hate Kirk Cameron. He's kind of annoying, but that's about the extent of my feelings about him.
Also, I doubt that you don't hate anyone. I think you hate Hitler, judging from what else you say.
I think Hitler deserves to suffer as much as all of his victims suffered, and once he is done suffering that much, he should be permanently killed. But your God makes the torture go on forever and ever. That's not proportionate. Justice must be proportionate.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 There would come a point where Hitler had suffered an equal amount to all the suffering he caused, and at that point, justice would have been served. To continue torturing him beyond that would be injustice.
However, despite what I believe Hitler deserved, I don't think there is a Hell for him to go to. His life ended, he died, and that was the end of it. The universe is not just.
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@Zomnificent Well I will tell you im studying the Bible and i still hv a lot to learn,from what i hv understood hell does nt go on forever in the human sence,you hv to remember we are dealing with the almighty creator of day/nite,the moon,stars,the complex human brain,its jst nt reasonable for me to believe my life,my kids,my mother,my dad,Love,is jst all a fluke that happened bc something blew up and created this beautiful earth,with birds that sing,blue skies,fragrant flowers.
royalcoils100 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 Those are just the facts; there's no good reason to believe there is a Hell, and wishing there was doesn't make it so.
Let me flip it around: assuming that my worst sin is atheism, not believing in God, do you think I deserve to spend eternity in Hell? That's the punishment prescribed by Jesus.
Further, if only Christians get into Heaven, then a lot of the people Hitler had murdered are in Hell (Hitler actually killed 12 million in the death camps - 6 million were Jewish).
Zomnificent 8 months ago
@royalcoils100 That would be a terrible injustice. So do you believe non-Christians also go to Heaven?
And if you want to talk about the Holocaust, why didn't God stop it?
Zomnificent 8 months ago
Kirk im amazed at the number of ppl who come to this sight to say hateful nasty things,you've said nothing hateful used no profanity,bt ppl say the most mean ,vile things to,which only confirms what you say,so many are being whispered to by satan,an dnt kno it,the very mention of Jesus evokes hate an evil in them jst like the Bible said it wld.
royalcoils100 8 months ago
Surely soap is the answer
coolioto 9 months ago
What an utter asshole.
chapelierfoudre 9 months ago
He is secretly imagining God to be a really hot guy, coming to save him from his filthy dirty frustrations XD
spartacandream 9 months ago 9
@spartacandream HAha.. good joke
TheCh1212 8 months ago
He is secretly imagining God to be a really God guy, coming to save him from his filthy dirty frustrations XD
spartacandream 9 months ago 4
LOL !
chapelierfoudre 10 months ago
Speak for yourself, Kirky boy.
revjimbob 10 months ago
@dragonmyst000 and @Zomnificent Going home for spring break. Will continue next week. :)
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever Cool. Enjoy your vacation.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
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Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
Cameron obviously has some serious self esteem issues that need to be resolved with professional care and guidance.
checkunderyourbed 11 months ago
He ruined his TV show with all that religious crap and now he's dirtying up the internet.
davidls11 11 months ago
Funny, this from the same type of person who says: "telling kids they evolved from animals dehumanizes them!" What do you call telling people, especially kids, that they're dirty without God?
RadarKat73080 11 months ago
John 3:16 revealed:
"God loves you SO MUCH, that he will literally damn you to hell for all eternity if you reject his son..."
Now, isn't god's love Wonderful?........
SkepticalBliss 11 months ago
@SkepticalBliss No, God sent His Son to take your place so you wouldn't have to go to Hell. Yes, if you refuse His forgiveness and pardon for your sin, you damn yourself because you're already guilty of the crime. Who is the kind of person who rejects a free and good gift and would rather die and go to hell against God's desire? Certainly not me.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever . Baptism absolves us of a sin that happened 6000 years ago. And Jesus' death absolves us of our own sins. So explain why am I responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve? And if everyone is a dirty, filthy sinner and in need of Jesus' sacrifice, then maybe Christians expectations of the human race are unrealistic. It would appear that we were created with a desire to sin, because most of our human nature is sinful. Why were we designed to fail Yahweh's test in the first place?
dragonmyst000 11 months ago
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Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@dragonmyst000 You might be speaking about the Catholic view of baptism, but the Bible does not say that about baptism. It serves as an expression of one's decision to become a new creation through Christ, but only faith in Jesus Christ saves a person. The expectations are not from Christians but from God Himself, Who gave us free will so that we could choose Him. The consequence of not choosing Him is to be separated from the Source of all good things; hell is a place devoid of all things good.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever I would NEVER choose hell nor would I EVER send anyone there. You are dead wrong, my friend! If your god is as all-powerful as you say, then HE is the one sending people to hell. People do not send themselves. Stop making lame excuses for your horrendous god! Isnt he is "god" enough to defend himself? Your god needs to start taking responsibility for his own actions. IF he is in control of EVERYTHING then HE IS sending people to hell - according to John 3:16... Read it
SkepticalBliss 11 months ago
@SkepticalBliss John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him (the Son) would not perish but have everlasting life." Do you realize that Jesus took the punishment for you so that you would not have to go to hell even though you deserved the punishment but He did not? That is what this Scripture is all about- the LOVE of God- that He DOES NOT want you to go to hell! Why in the world would you not want to accept this free gift He is offering you?
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever You are not asking the REAL QUESTION: Why would a so-called all-loving merciful god send anyone to hell in the first place? Why should ANYONE have to suffer unending pain for ALL ETERNITY? A truly merciful god could rehabilitate these souls or if they are so evil, make them just not exist anymore - that is mercy. Your god is NOT all-loving and merciful. He is a masochist - keeping souls alive simply so they can BURN for an ETERNITY is SICK! Think about THAT...
SkepticalBliss 11 months ago
@SkepticalBliss Yeah, wouldn't that make it easier on you so that you wouldn't have to pay for what you've done wrong? By the way, you're missing the whole message of the Gospel: that Jesus paid the price for you so that you would NOT HAVE TO go to hell! Why would you complain about hell if you don't have to go there? Hell was originally created for Satan, but anyone who follows Satan by not following God goes where Satan goes. How about answering the REAL QUESTION at the end of my last comment?
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever
"He did all he could to save you" If your god did all it could to save someone it would reveal its existence directly to everyone rather than staying hidden and planting doubts in peoples minds about faith
ComradeAH1994 1 year ago
@ComradeAH1994 That's because faith by biblical definition is "being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you cannot see." Faith means believing not necessarily by seeing but by knowing spiritually, otherwise there would be no such thing as belief, only observation. Faith allows people who want to serve God to choose to believe in Him, while those who do not cannot feel forced into it, but judgment for your decision comes after you die and have to meet Him face to face.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
Says you....
GO BACK TO ACTING INSTEAD OF ACTING THE FOOL
akumaten 1 year ago
Why are ppl willing to tolerate trash on tv but get into a riot about someone sharing good news???
Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Blessings2UForever How do you think it's good news that 90+% of humanity is going to burn in hell for eternity?
Zomnificent 1 year ago
@Zomnificent The good news is that you have a choice NOT to "burn in hell for eternity" by believing in Jesus Christ and accepting Him as your Savior and Lord. And that's true for 100% of humanity.
Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Blessings2UForever I think it would be better news if there was no such thing as hell. That's the good news of atheism.
I can't really bring myself to believe in God. It's too absurd. It's like asking me to make myself believe there are gnomes on my shoulders. I just can't.
Belief isn't a choice. I can't make myself believe that I'm actually a tall, grey building or a glass of water.
I wouldn't want to worship a God who sends anyone to eternal torture, anyway.
Zomnificent 1 year ago
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Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
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Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Zomnificent I believe in God, you seem not to believe in God. It’s a choice.
The subject of the existence of God is a very weighty one that deserves investigation. I believe that as you earnestly seek to find out more about God that He will reveal Himself to you personally in innumerable ways.
Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Blessings2UForever (continued) It’s His promise: “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13). That is why I have never met anyone who has truly sought God and never found Him; they always make excuses like I don’t believe in God so why should I seek Him? and therefore have not sought Him with their whole heart, but those who do find Him. That is why it is a choice: you decide whether or not to seek Him. Sorry for the LONG response.
Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Blessings2UForever No, I don't believe in God, and it's not a choice. I have to see evidence of it in order to believe it. If I do see that evidence, I will believe. But I see no evidence.
You say that things science cannot explain are proof of God. That's not so. All it would mean is that there's something we don't know yet. Just because science cannot explain it now doesn't mean it will never explain it. It also doesn't mean that God is the answer anymore than it means leprechauns are.
Zomnificent 1 year ago
@Zomnificent I also wonder, to which things are you referring?
Hell is no mere jailhouse, it is an eternal torture chamber. Why should I want to seek this God that you worship, "with my heart," if he tortures people forever? He's clearly evil, and "offering the gift of salvation" is like a mobster saying he won't break my kneecaps if I give him $200 a week. The God you worship created the threat he is "generously offering" to save me from. It's just blackmail, and it's evil.
Zomnificent 1 year ago
My reason tells me that the God you believe in doesn't exist. There's no evidence in the first place, and there are dozens of internal contradictions with the unclear concept of God. There's no good reason to believe in God and plenty of good arguments to believe that God doesn't exist.
My emotions and moral intuitions tell me that the God you worship is an evil character, and I wouldn't worship him even if he did exist - not even to save myself from Hell.
Zomnificent 1 year ago
I would not sit in Heaven singing the praises of an evil dictator when I knew that millions or billions of people were suffering in a concentration camp that he created. If that's the "salvation" God offers, I'd rather spit in his face and burn with the sinners.
Zomnificent 1 year ago
@Zomnificent God loves you and does not want you to go to hell, but by rejecting Him you are essentially saying "God, I don't want Your free gift." He did all He could to save you, but the choice is yours of whether you want to be saved or not- He will not force you because He gave you free will. Salvation, therefore, is still a choice.
Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Blessings2UForever Sorry, Blessings2UForever, but that is not a "choice". It is similar to this: I am going to vote and when I get there, someone points a gun to my head and says, "You have a choice - vote for Obama and I will let you go on your way. Vote for McCain and I will pull this trigger. Remember, you have a choice..."
SkepticalBliss 11 months ago
@Zomnificent Just because something cannot be proved scientifically does not mean it does not exist. You seem to have alot of faith in science, even to the point of predicting that it will uncover "things we just don't know yet"- that is the very definition of faith: believing in what you cannot see. I believe that many things that science cannot explain never will be explained by science because they are miracles, divine acts of God, and by nature "supernatural," beyond scientific explanation.
Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Zomnificent God cannot be proved or disproved by science alone and never was meant to be. The Bible says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). Thus, God chooses to reveal Himself spiritually, and that is how He is found, although He also manifests his power in the physical way of miracles as mentioned previously, and mainly through the Person of Jesus Christ.
Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Zomnificent Now that you know the way to God, you have no reason not to find Him, unless you refuse to seek Him and the Gift of His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for your sin. Thus, you are sending yourself to hell, because God is just and cannot allow sin to live with Him forever. That is why Jesus came and died because only He could could be punished in your place so you can be with God. He's already paid the price for your salvation; all you have to do is accept it.
Blessings2UForever 1 year ago
@Blessings2UForever My response is getting too long, I will reply in a private message.
Zomnificent 1 year ago
@Blessings2UForever But Christianity is only 1 of 4000 religions, most of which state theirs is the only true religion. Why is Christianity any more valid then any of the other religions? Just because a book says so?
Besides, just because Yahweh impregnated his virgin mortal daughter so he can have a divine son, that he then had his mortal children kill in order to erase a sin caused by his first mortal children 4000 years earlier that we are still being punished for? How is that fair?
dragonmyst000 11 months ago
@dragonmyst000 Jesus is the only way to God because He is the only One who was perfect and gave His life you to pay the penalty for your sin. God is completely righteous and allows no evil in His presence. Without Christ, there would be no way for God to accept us into heaven. Christianity deals with the problem of our sin and the justice of God that doesn't excuse evil but that He made a way for us to be with Him because of His love for us.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Zomnificent Yeah, you would rather not be held accountable at all for all of the wrong things you have done, but just like in a court of law, you're not going to get off the hook that easily. The only way for you to be set free is if someone pays the price for your freedom. Jesus did that, and if you are willing to accept His gift and live a life that honors Him, you will be saved. Refusal leaves you without this hope. That is the good news of the Gospel.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever I have done nothing wrong, and certainly nothing worthy of eternal torment. I'm not guilty of anything.
If Jesus pays the price, how is that justice? Justice is punishing the one who did the crime. If I receive jail time, my nice grandma can't take the punishment for me. That's morally corrupt. Your religion is all about telling people they can dodge guilt for things they should feel legitimately guilty about because "Jesus forgives them." Jesus doesn't have the right.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
Furthermore, if God invented Hell and then incarnates as someone to "save me" from his own evil punishment, I give him no credit for that. It's a racket. It's like God telling me to pay him off or he'll break my kneecaps. He's a thug. So there's nothing "good" about your religion; it's evil.
Your religion invents the disease and then offers us the cure - but it costs an arm and a leg. It's little more than a con game.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
I also don't understand why you keep arguing with me. I've already pointed out that even if you convince me that your God is real, I would rather burn in Hell than shackle myself to a tyrant.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
@Zomnificent Alright, let's take the test Kirk Cameron here uses: Have you ever told a lie? Have you taken something that didn't belong to you, even something small? Have you ever used the name of God as a curse word? Have you ever looked at a woman/man and lusted after that person? If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, then you have sinned according to God's ten commandments and deserve His punishment.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever I don't understand your need to apply your religions rules to everyone, Christianity is only 1 of 4000 different religions in the world today. And your own Bible states that Yahweh is not the only God, the Bible lists 27 other God and Goddess by name. So how can you categorically state that yours is the only real God and religion? If it's your religion then you live by the rules of your religion, let everyone else live by the rules of their religion.
dragonmyst000 11 months ago
@dragonmyst000 Hey, you're the one who wanted to know about these things, and it's not like I am butting into anyone's business here if you asked me questions that I am simply answering. By the way, I do live by my faith and can tell you it's the most wonderful experience because it's living the way you were intended. The only reason Christians tell others is so that you can spend eternity with Him in heaven, all because of what Jesus Christ has done for you.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever But don't you see that Christians like Kirk and yourself do more to drive people away from Christianity then anything. All we hear is, I'm better then you, my God is better, only our book is holy, I know more, I'm right, I'm saved. You sound very egotistical and proud, which is exactly what God commands against. The approach most Christians take in discussing their beliefs automatically makes people defensive. So is it any wonder people respond as they do to you?
dragonmyst000 11 months ago
@dragonmyst000 No, I do not claim to be better than you at all. As one person put it, sharing the Gospel is like one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread. Just because I know the "Bread of Life" doesn't mean I think I am better than you, but it does mean I have a responsibility to tell others the good news. If this turns you off, then by all means go about finding God in a way that suits you, but just make sure you actually find the truth.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever You don't mean "the" truth, you mean "your" truth. Because I have already found the truth, and it is not the same as yours.
dragonmyst000 11 months ago
@dragonmyst000 The truth about God is not relative. There is only one way to heaven, and that is through accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Believing otherwise is doing oneself a huge disservice that has enormous consequences for you in the end. Why not let God into your life and prove to you Himself that He is God???
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@dragonmyst000 Read the posts. On the contrary, Christians treat non-Christians with decency and talk to them with a civil tongue while on the other hand the atheists use foul language and name-calling and claim to be better than God?? Clearly, you are blind to your own misbehavior and wrongly interpret someone telling you good news with thinking they are superior to you. Concerning your accusation, the shoe is on the other foot.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever First off, I am the furthest thing from an Atheist, so please do not lump us all together. I simply have a real hard time with someone who can't stand to believe that I could be right in the religion I have practiced for most of my life. Someone who insists that my God is not valid and that I must follow their vengeful and jealous God rather then my loving and joyful God. And yes I was Christian and was reborn, but then I grew up and saw the hypocrisy in the "Good News".
dragonmyst000 11 months ago
@dragonmyst000 Then what do you consider yourself? And what hypocrisy are you talking about? From man or God Himself? Did not God show you during your experience with Him about Himself and how to understand the world around you, since you claim to be "born again," which means you have the mind of Christ through which you are able to comprehend the things of God that the world calls foolish? (1 Cor 2:14) Were you really born again or did you just go through the motions without really meaning it?
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
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@dragonmyst000 I too have dealt with hypocrisy but it was of man and not God. He has never failed me. :-)
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@dragonmyst000 By the way, I have to be going soon, so don't feel pressured to answer right away unless you want to because I won't be able to respond until later anyways. Have a nice day...
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever I don't give a fuck about Kirk Cameron's test. He's a dimwit. But I'll humor you.
Yes, I've told lies. I have never taken something that didn't belong to me. I use "Jesus fucking Christ!" and "god damn it!" all the time. I lust after women all the time.
None of these things mean I "deserve" eternal torture, yet you worship a God who prescribes such an unjust punishment. You are vastly more immoral than I am, because you call that "justice" and "good."
Zomnificent 11 months ago
Further, what kind of God creates such a harsh commandment that NONE of his creatures can live up to it? It's the kind of God that damns most of his creatures to eternal torture. As I've clearly said several times now, fuck that God. He's evil.
The main point, though, is that you have done nothing to prove to me that this boogeyman is even real. That's why Kirk Cameron's test, above all else, is meaningless and will never persuade any atheist.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
I don't care what your God thinks because he doesn't exist.
If you knew your apologetics, you'd understand that the test Cameron uses is designed to be used against people who already believe in God and think of themselves as good Christians, but aren't quite fundamentalist enough for his liking.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
@Zomnificent It's God's definition of justice and His judgment that you will have to face one day. Like it or not, you have broken His law and must be given the penalty. The very fact that there is a sense of justice in you proves that God exists, because God placed His law in every heart so that you even know you did wrong. God made a way so that you wouldn't have to pay your penalty by paying it for you with His own life. I hope you come to understand this one day. Until then, I'm praying 4 u.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever No, I won't have to face God's "judgment," because there is no god. But if your god exists, I will take the penalty with pride, and I'll flip him the bird as I descend into the flames.
I don't believe I've done anything seriously wrong. The God you worship is wrong, and my sense of justice is superior. Your God punishes people in ways that are unjust, and lets guilty people off the hook just for groveling at his feet.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
@Zomnificent So what kind of punishment do ppl like Hitler and Pol Pot deserve, if your sense of justice is superior? You judge based on a human perspective in comparison to other humans, thinking that b/c you may not be as bad as these guys, then you deserve better than them. However, from God's perspective, your "righteousness is like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6), because His standard is perfection, and He does not allow anything unclean into His presence, but through Jesus we can be made clean.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever First and foremost, am I as bad as Hitler and Pol Pot? No! So why the hell do you think I deserve the same punishment as them? That's injustice. You believe in a religion where if Hitler had sincerely repented after killing 12 million people and accepted Christ into his heart, he would be in Heaven, while I go to Hell simply for the crime of not believing in a god who provides no evidence. According to your religion, Jeffrey Dahmer is in Heaven, and Gandhi's in Hell.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
Also, you claim I can't understand God's superior perspective. How can you? You're just a human. You read this book, and you call it good based on your own perspective. So if you can evaluate God to be good, I can evaluate God to be evil.
God does almost nothing but viciously kill people for the slightest infractions throughout the whole Old Testament. I can hardly think of a single good thing he does.
The human perspective is the only perspective. The Bible was just written by humans.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
There is no God. You claim to speak for God, but really you are adopting the ignorant perspective of first-century goat herders and being arrogant about it. You are completely misguided, and you don't really understand morality. You haven't even thought about it.
If God has a completely different standard than humans do, why should we follow his standard? That doesn't make sense. God's actions seem wrong to us, so we should go with our perspective.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
Your god creates humanity in such a way that it cannot even understand right and wrong - and then punishes them for it unless they OBEY. That's the only thing God cares about. Morality doesn't matter to God - as I pointed out, Jeffrey Dahmer the serial killer and rapist will be in Heaven, because he repented and proclaimed Jesus as his lord.
So all the horrible things he did to other human beings don't matter to God. That means that human life is utterly worthless in God's eyes. That's evil.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
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Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
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Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Zomnificent Read Ezekiel 18 in the Bible, then maybe you will understand.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever Aside from being quite repetitive, it has some serious problems as a moral code. It says not to go near a menstruating woman. Do you follow that command?
This also says that the son will not be punished for what his father did. But that completely goes against earlier parts of the Bible, where God does exactly that. He punishes whole generations of people. He curses the whole world because of Adam and Eve disobeying, and curses all women to have labor pains as punishment.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
Further, it says nothing about belief. In fact, it says the opposite. It says all you have to do is follow God's commandments (be a morally good person), and you will be rewarded.
Then of course, earlier in the Bible you have God commanding his people to slaughter entire cities indiscriminately, and even doing it himself - to Sodom and Gomorrah, to the Egyptians, to the whole world during the Flood. God kills more people than anyone else in the Bible. But Ezekiel says you shouldn't be violent.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
This is just another Biblical contradiction, of which there are probably thousands.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
@Zomnificent A person is not to be violent individually but it is allowed for the cause of war. God cleared out masses of people because He knew that they would become a stumbling block and have an immoral influence on His people otherwise. In the end, He will judge all mankind similarly. Those who have chosen to obey Him will live with Him forever, and those who chose not to believe and accept Christ will be punished. Once you know the truth and do not act on it then there is no excuse for you.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Zomnificent He is God, He can choose to judge however He wants, but His judgments are always fair- that is, the righteous are eternally blessed and the unrighteous get what they deserve.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever I pointed out that God contradicts himself. He breaks his own laws. He's a hypocrite.
No, his judgments are not fair. When he said in the Bible that people must put disobedient children to death, or kill witches, or kill homosexuals and adulterers, he was wrong. Why don't we do it today? Do you believe that was ever right?
Might doesn't make right, but you seem to believe it does. You are morally confused, a total relativist.
Zomnificent 11 months ago
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Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Zomnificent Looks like you couldn't wait to shoot off one of your negative comments before I had a chance to respond. I have a life outside of staring in front of my computer. Let me say this then- I am not here to argue with you. I will argue with you because I know God personally and He has revealed Himself to me in undeniable ways but there is no way to help you if you don't want or are not seeking help. I just I pray that one day something will cause you to consider what you have been told.
Blessings2UForever 11 months ago
@Blessings2UForever God "cleared out masses of people" because they would be "a stumbling block" for "His people"? That's called genocide, and it is evil. So is selecting one group of people over all the rest. That sounds very much like the "Master race."
He will judge all mankind similarly? Not the Moabites. He just wiped them out completely. What chance did they have to accept him - they weren't the "Chosen People"?
A God that thinks it's acceptable to murder millions of human beings is evil
Zomnificent 10 months ago
My comment wasn't an insult, it was my estimation of the truth. You worship a God who commanded his followers to murder infants, and you call that God "good." That clearly means you are morally confused. But since you believe that it's right to kill millions of people indiscriminately - men, women, children, even babies - for the will of God, you're not just confused. You're evil.
I have a life outside of staring at my computer, too. Responding to your messages only takes around 5 minutes.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
You aren't here to argue with me. You're just here to preach at me - you don't like that I argue with your sermon.
I have probably spent a lot more time considering religion than you have. I have considered it, and found it to be completely ridiculous.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
And don't complain about negative comments. Nothing I could say to you is as horrible as you believing I deserve to burn in Hell for eternity.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
@Zomnificent God also knows the hearts of man, whether they would change or not. There were individuals in those people groups who turned to God and He spared them and allowed them to join the Israelite tribes. Look up Ruth (a Moabite) and Rahab, both people outside the nation of Israel who were accepted into it because they acknowledged God. Also see the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where God promised to spare the whole city for 10 righteous people but there were not and God saved the righteous.
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever My point is that we could go on arguing just about forever with all your questions about the Bible and accusations against Christianity and me having to explain every point and respond to every accusation, or you could find out for yourself the answers. The Scripture is true that says "the natural man cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned" meaning you will never get the Bible unless someone with the Spirit of God explains it to you, or...
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever ... you become open enough to the Spirit to let God reveal these things to you, which would require you to approach the Word of God with the sincere desire to understand rather than bash it.
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever By the way, the Scripture I referenced is 1 Corinthians 2:14
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever I don't really care if God let a few of them survive - he wiped out whole villages, killed babies, and ordered his followers to kill babies and children.
Maybe I sent the wrong impression. I didn't mean to make it seem like if God spared a handful of the people he was murdering and ordering to be murdered along the way, it would be okay. I don't recognize that God has a right to subjugate people, any more than any human does.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
Even if they had all converted and he spared all of them, it would still be evil.
There weren't 10 righteous people in two whole cities? What about the children? Were they all evil?
Not only this, but this story points out Abraham using his own conscience to disagree with and challenge God. Abraham doesn't just blindly follow whatever God says. Why should anyone?
I want to make it clear that I am only responding to your claims.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
I have studied the Bible. There's simply nothing compelling in it. I approached it with an open mind when I was a child, and when I got to the Flood, I was horrified.
What I think you mean when you say "approach the Word of God with the sincere desire to understand," is really to shut off my conscience and gloss over the evil parts of the book. You want me to give it a pass.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
If I am to have any desire to take another look at this book, I need to hear some convincing responses to my moral objections.
You claim to have the Spirit of God guiding you. Are you sincerely trying to explain it to me? Because none of your answers have satisfied my objections. None of it makes any sense to me.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
@Zomnificent Ok don't claim to know my motivations and you have no reason to question my sincerety. Being open does not mean "glossing over" or "giving a pass"- it means to consider without the intent of bashing like I said because by doing that you are actually "glossing over" the parts that would refute your points because your eyes aren't even open to them. As for my sincerety, you can trust it because I don't get anything by helping you, only b/c I care. Doesn't satisfy? That's your problem.
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever In my beliefs I need to look at the intent behind the actions. Why does God spend the first 4000 years of the Bible being jealous and vengeful, killing and punishing his own mortal children. If we have free will, then why does God force people to do what he wanted? Why does God punish people that exercise free will? That really isn't free is it. And if a man is called wicked for killing, shouldn't the same apply to God? Why doesn't God have to live by his own rules?
dragonmyst000 10 months ago
@Zomnificent Of course you wouldn't say that you care- unless that was you- because it doesn't help your point. However, it demonstrates the mercy of God on those whose hearts are right with Him. These are not just a few: Ninevah was a vey wicked city who had murdered many of God's prophets, so God sent Jonah to tell the people that if they didn't repent then He would destroy the city. When they did, God spared the city. One thing that God has above humans is that He judges by the heart of man.
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever Those whose hearts are right with him, or those that suck up to him and beg for their lives out of fear? That's what it seems like to me. Genocide is genocide, even if God spares a few people.
The whole city is not guilty. That just doesn't happen in reality. There are babies and children living in every city. They do not commit murder or share any guilt in it.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
You haven't explained any of this in a way that justifies the sheer evil of it. Therefore, I think you must be glossing over it. I'm not questioning your motive, I'm questioning your thought process. It seems like you are ignoring a vast amount of evil and poiinting to the tiny amount of good in the Bible. It doesn't justify the evil that's there.
And I pointed out that God sparing people on the condition that they worship him utterly is not moral.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
He has just coerced them into bowing - he subjugated them. When Genghis Khan rides into town from the plains and threatens to kill everyone if they don't give him whatever he wants, it isn't moral that he spares people on the condition that they give him their possessions. He is still robbing them.
When hostage-takers spares the hostages becuase their demands were met, that is not evidence that they are good.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
The God of the Bible blackmails people into worshiping him with threats of death and violence. When they comply, he spares them, but enslaves them.
If you manage to convince me, that strengthens your faith and raises your self-esteem. You would get something by convincing me. You prove to yourself that you were right. The problem is that the only people the Bible can persuade are those that already believe in it. Everyone else recognizes how absurd and vile it is.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
Understand it from my perspective. You are telling me that this god is good and praiseworthy. So I look at his actions and judge them according to my conscience, and he clearly appears to be evil. Yet you keep telling me he is good. So either you believe that evil is good, or you are glossing over the evil and not weighting it properly in your evaluation.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
@Zomnificent hi, back from break. sorry it took so long to respond again. i read all your comments and basically the way i see it, it's a matter of perspective, like seeing the glass half full or half empty. you choose to see the things God has done as evil without understanding the reasoning behind them, some of which i have tried to explain to you, and ignore all the good He has done. i would be glad to continue this convo, but i don't think it really does much good without an attitude change.
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever Can you remind me as to how you justified any of God's evil actions? The last thing I remember, you actually raised a bunch of problems, and then didn't provide justifications for them. The only thing you said was that he spared a few of them. But he didn't have the right to kill anybody. At the very least, he didn't have the right to kill babies of enemy tribes.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
I hold God to objective standards, the same standards I hold everyone else to. If a human had done all of the things God did, demanding that everyone bow down or die, and then massacring all the people that didn't bow, you would call it evil. You give God a pass because you don't apply morality to God. I don't think you understand the reason behind the actions. Why does God tell his people to cut the babies out of the wombs, and slaughter every living thing?
Zomnificent 10 months ago
What possible justification could there be?
The only thing that would change my perspective is if I shut off my conscience, or every action was justified to me. I don't believe you understand the intent behind God's actions, you just accept that God is right by default, by ignoring evil that you would condemn if anyone else was doing it.
God is supposed to be all-good. I'd have to change the definition of good if I wanted to apply it to the God of the Bible.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
You also asked why God would be so wrathful and vengeful, and then changes. How do you explain that? Did morality completely change? For example, is it right to stone disobedient children to death? If your child talks back to you, do you drag him out in the yard and hit him with rocks until he dies? That's what God himself commands you to do! How do you explain that? Was that ever good? Does morality simply change with human culture?
Zomnificent 10 months ago
My view is that it was always wrong to hit humans with rocks until they die because of the pain it caused the human. Do you have a moral view that is better?
Zomnificent 10 months ago
@Zomnificent Most of your questions apply to the cultural context of the OT. Back then, that's the way they did things. They didn't have electric chairs and other technology that we have today, including bombs that completely wipe out villages in order to protect the majority. To answer the other point, God is Judge over all creation. In a court of law, only a judge has the authority to punish someone after trial in order to ensure guilt, but God Who knows everything is perfect in His judgment.
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever But I must make the point that there is an easier and far more efficient way of handling this matter. Me answering all of your questions is like trying to convince a blind person of the existance of color, but one glimpse of sight could solve everything. The opportunity for a "glimpse" is offered to you today- in the form of asking God to reveal Himself to you yourself!
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever Do you think the Bible is man-made? Because that's what you're saying when you talk about the "cultural context." In the Bible, God tells the Israelites directly what to do. Does God change with the times? No, God is said to have dictated the laws. He made the cultural context.
Further, talking about cultural context is flatly contradicted by what's actually in the Bible. God himself commands these massacres, commands them to slay every living thing, including the animals!
Zomnificent 10 months ago
So you either have to assert that it's right for God to command that, say it's wrong, or say that those passages are incorrect.
It's not moral to completely wipe out villages. That's indiscriminate killing.
I disagree. Judges can rule incorrectly. It seems clear that from the judgments God supposedly makes in the Bible, he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
Most of my questions are theological and intellectual in nature. I'm asking about the morals of the Bible.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
If you are guided by God to have a greater understanding than I have, you can explain it to me.
Blind people can still understand the existence of color, but they can't experience it. Color is based on light waves, something we can use science to demonstrate. You haven't demonstrated God.
Telling me to ask God anything is nonsensical. I don't believe in God. It's like me telling you to ask Santa Claus to send you a million dollars. You don't talk to things you don't believe exist.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
Further, if I were to "ask God" and reported to you that nothing happened, you would just say I didn't ask hard enough, or I wasn't serious enough. Since you claim to have contact with God, why don't you ask him to send me evidence to persuade me, like he did with Doubting Thomas?
And why has God made his presence known to you, and not me? Seems like he's picking favorites.
Zomnificent 10 months ago
@Zomnificent Says the blind person who won't help himself.
Blessings2UForever 10 months ago
@Blessings2UForever How childish of you.
Zomnificent 10 months ago