The Working Class and the Betrayal of the Russian Revolution

[4500jas]

It is estimated that about 22,000 people die in America every year just because they don't have healthcare. But for some reason when the Russian Working class gets vengeance on their oppressors and exploiters it is deemed terror and the oppression and exploitation is viewed as Just.

[4500jas]

Great video, the White Armies killed Hundred of thousands of people. No one seems to have heard the term "White Terror", which was far worse than so called "Red Terror." Red terror was born out of White Terror, which came first.

[themyomy]

vive la revolution !

[sarlokkin]

Systems of politics always fail because they're not alone.

[schizoidboy]

The problem was it wasn't just Stalin. Other countries using communist principles all end up setting up totalitarian societies that were just as vicious as Stalin. China and Cambodia lost huge portions of their populations and countries such as Cuba and Vietnam as well as East Germany suffered huge defections from their own people. Something sure isn't working here...

[themyomy]

@schizoidboy You see things very very simplisticly ,700,000 Cambodians were slaughtered by the USA before any Pol Pot, how many millions of Vietnamese were also slaughtered by the USA and Batista tortured and murdered 20,000 Cubans . Communism is a reaction to exploitation ,greed,racism,sexism,xenophobi­a,war and hatered !

[schizoidboy]

@themyomy Yes I do, particularly the fact that the war in Cambodia was more or less over and there was no excuse for the Khmer Rouge to slaughter their own people except to hold absolute control over them. There is a difference between war and slaughtering your own people once you take power. At least if a bomber is flying over head it can be shot down, reeducation camp inmates don't have that luxury.

[squidnell]

ironic going to a private school and being a socialist 

[cary123]

2:10 that is a nazi shooting a russian jew.

[oneleggedgolfer]

STALINISM WAS NOTHING MORE THAN PURE CAPITALISM!!!! exploitation of the many in the interest of few top party members

[SuperSuperfan]

The Russian Revolution didn't fail when Stalin took power it failed when the Bolsheviks took power. All power would be vested in the state under the Bolsheviks, and the so called Marxist step of the "Dictatorship of the proletariat" was nonexistent because the workers didn't decide anything as the central Bolshevik Bureaucracy decided all, Trotsky even stated and justified this in his "Terrorism and Communism".

[MobHeataEnt]

How did it fail when it was the Bolsheviks who were behind the Revolution.

[AG549er]

Marx and Lenin's humanistic national socialist liberation movement has led to the deaths of millions of working class people, intellectuals and people of faith.

[SuperSuperfan]

Blame Lenin all you want, but Marx didn't do anything, he just came up with base idea and I believe he would in no way support what the Bolsheviks and Stalin did.

[CrankdReport]

I suggest you look again at what happens during these revolutions. I'm not against socialism, but socialist revolutions, even the Russian one under Lenin, immediately lead to suppression and programs of abuse. The French Revolution and the Maoist revolution also bear this out. Because the new system is fragile and capitalists are still around, socialists feel they must eradicate old thought to clear the way for reform, and inevitably censor the press and imprison or kill capitalist elements.

[CosmosLoyal]

Indeed there is a strong degree of truth to that however it is not only in socialist revolutions that this happens. We have also witnessed the same thing happening after the democratic revolution of Russia in 1991 with Yeltsin and Putin eroding the gains of the revolution.

After nearly every revolution in human history there has been a struggle between those who wish to conservatize the revolution and the whiggish ideal of permanent revolution.

[Steelie1963]

Trotsky was a fanatical Tyrant who would have killed millions given the chance. Your fawning account of a flawed man cannot change that fact.The Krondstat massacre was the final nail in the coffin of the bolshevik revolution,long before Stalin came to power!

[Eocef]

Under the "crimes of Stalin" you show footage of SS soldiers executing Jews in the Ukraine.

[whyamiademocrat]

All of those people at or below the poverty line.... That is a joke. My family sits right at the "poverty line" as defined by our government. We get 0 public assistance, and we own two vehicles, 5 computers, (needed because I teach my children at home) and a little pool in the backyard - We have a nice stereo, big screen tv (Not HD just an old projection tv). We always have plenty to eat. My hubby has a workshop full of tools, No we can't do or buy everything we want. Are we impoverished?

[whyamiademocrat]

People in America do not know what poverty is! I went on a mission trip to Mexico - working on building homes for poor families, and feeding them. These people with homes made out of old beer signs, and other garbage - worked 14 hours each day for the equivalent of $5. Children raising babies - Fortunate fo get a 6th grade education. These are the conditions. Unbelievable poverty, yet amazingly happy people. We are so pompous to think that we have it so bad. we should be ashamed!

[killingvegans]

Save the moralizing for somewhere else.

[Antiks72]

@whyamiademocrat Our standard of living is decreasing in this country since 1970. That's cause for concern. We've seen a war waged on the working class for the past thirty years, and both the Republicans and Democrats won't do anything to address it. Mexico is terrible to, but don't ignore reality here after looking at Mexico. We'll be like Mexico if this trend continues.

[HVACSoldier]

@whyamiademocrat You know that is so true. Warren Buffett once wrote in a magazine that people born in America hit the jackpot. We could have been born in Mexico or Thailand or any other country where poverty is rampant and a part of everyday life.

[fdoric6]

America is also the most polarized country on earth. The richest 1% hold more wealth than the bottom 95% and the bottom 50% hold just 1%. More than 65 million Americans live on seven dollars or less a day.

The poverty line is not the point, nor is relative poverty. Brutal expolitation is taking place and these same exploiters are sending young Americans to kill and be killed to protect their wealth. This should never be underestimated and can never be tolerated

[jeffreykins]

With respect, your country is the most dominant economic powerhouse in the world. Think of the poverty in other nations and see if you can turn the other cheek.

[RedAthena1919]

I'm not the biggest fan of Leninism in general (mainly because while, yes, the measures of violence taken up in the Civil War were neccesary, they did not need to be continued for so long afterward, into the period of stablity that lasted atleast until Lenin died), but it is clear to see that Stalin was no Leninist. Trotsky, though far too authoritarian for my tastes, was certainly a FAR better option than Stalin.

[geoffstockton]

Yeah, real "progressive" policies! The anti-hate crimes and anti semitism laws were put in place purely to put an end to free speech. A lot of people were locked up and/or killed for speaking their mind. And now in the US, they're trying to push for the same thing. Notice how the media tags anyone who believes 9-11 was orchestrated by the banking elite as anti-semites. Sure, the Rothschilds are jewish but that didn't stop them from using their wait to put Hitler into power in the 1930s.

[daizee106]

good comment

[chemochinga]

Capitalism does work. Keep your legs closed and your mind open. And you will succeed

[RAGtagBAG88]

Yeah, capitalism works so well that the whole world is bankrupt.

[bh3ader]

IMHO i think social capitalism is the best political ideology.

[MarxIsDead]

So, liberal tax policy at the state and local levels discourage investment, and drives businesses away to lower tax locations. Then, Liberals show pictures of these abandoned buildings and blame capitalism? That dog don't hunt no more. The next revolution will be against liberal tax policy that will encourage investment and create jobs. Then, these abandoned buildings will be occupied again with flower shops and boutiques, not community centers or other big government liberal breeding grounds.

[Despotailustrado]

this make me so sad :(

[Peadarisback]

video's about "classes" never seem to mention the "middle class" communism just gows on about the "working class" and "upper-class" I think real communism should combine the working class and middle class to fight the upper-class

[dudekeith]

Define what "middle-class" is first.

[Peadarisback]

middle-class would be small bussiness owners, teachers, dentists, doctors etc, etc combined with the workers and the poor against the imprealists and the ultra-rich upper class of society

[fdoric6]

The working class is defined as all those that sell the labor to the owners of the means of production--this includes professional people and those that run small business--most of whom are wage slaves.

There is no small amount of confusion in this area. Not all are capitalist are deliberate exploiters, and there have been those that have sided with the revolutionary masses. The nucleus of the Bolshevik party were intellectuals that directed the struggle towards the oppressed workers.

[fdoric6]

Its a really interesting question. As now in the midst of a crisis it is evident that if change is to come it must be achieved by the conscious intervention of the working class, most of whom have no idea about socialism or are hostile towards it at present. Marxists are economic determinists, meaning that we believe that collapse will be so profound that it will actually force workers onto the political scene through necessity.

[killingvegans]

I think it's debatable whether or not Marxists are "economic determinists." Lenin called it "objectivism," i.e. abdicating responsibility to intervene politically because of the assumption that socialism will come about automatically because of objective forces.

[fdoric6]

With respect, you are very wrong on this point. Lenin was extremely hostile to such assumptions. While he considered socialism an objective necessity, he was adamant it could only come about by the political intervention of the masses led by a revolutionary vanguard party. This is the central theme of Lenins state and revolution. If socialism can come about solely out of objective conditions, then a revolutionary party is unnecessary.

[killingvegans]

That's actually the point I was going to make. No disagreements, it seems.

[edfchv1]

@killingvegans If your such a socialist why are you attending a private college?

[killingvegans]

@edfchv1 I don't see how that's relevant at all. I understand perfectly well that because I attend a private college, I am privileged in some respect. However, being a socialist has do with one's political and philosophical perspective, not where one went to school. The practical answer to your question is that the school I go to gave me more aid than any of the other schools I applied to.

[denhamsdentifrice]

Because there was no significant middle class at the time. You either starved to death or suffocated in your gem stockpiles.

[dean38]

1 year later, capitalism is in collapse, the greed of bankers, the unfettered ambition of self interest has led to the predicted collapse of international capitalism.

trotsky has proved to be the real "communist".

all the lies and bullshit of both capitalism and stalinism have been proved to be lies, capitalism like stalinism is about to be confined to "the dustbin of history".

WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO NOW?

you pathetic apologist for genocide and worldwide capitalist oppression?

[killingvegans]

Vinny, go somewhere else you pathetic milksop.

[vinnysbarbershop]

Socialism is not only misguided theory, but is evil in every sense. for those uncertain of what qualifies as evil, ask yourself the following: 1) Am i entitled to my own life/freedom/happiness/propert­y/choices 2) if so, are those who curb this entitlement anything other than evil? 3)if they are not evil, what are they good?

[vinnysbarbershop]

This film is the biggest insult to the millions of people who staved to death after cannibalizing there loved ones under this depraved social system. keep dreaming for it and maybe you will be lucky enough to live your dream of a government imposed FAMINE.

[vinnysbarbershop]

What about the crimes against humanity perpetrated by Lenin. Millions of people died unspeakable deaths under your idol.  The result of someone taking you by your word (ie. socialism being the ideal social system), is a comparable crime, and you should be ashamed of your ignorant self.

[lividmany]

You are all wrong. If Trotsky had won he would have then been deceived by the Devil and done the same things as Stalin. Read Prov. 13:13; Isa. 28:9-13; 2Ths.2:11-12; IKngs.22:16-23.

[PeteJones100]

do u seriously think religion has anything to do with this?

[lividmany]

Did you look up and contemplate the verses?

[chris96kalonji]

@PeteJones100 It does. Christian and Catholic churches are big business. Did you know they receive millions to trillions of dollers just on donations? While all they do is lie, and tell you that if you don't donate you're a supporter of the devil, and what-not. They will also tell you you're going to go to hell. Religion has a lot to do with this.

[hialeahkiko]

Real Socialism/Communism = RUSSIA

[jarmoo]

Trotsky and Stalin were wrong. They killed the revolution, they killed Makhno.

[filippioss]

he was an anarchist

[eastcombe127]

Well correct me if im but wasn't Lenin ready to allow Makhno and his followers an independent territory until he kept flip flopping around and changing sides during the civil war. By the way the makhnoists did form a central gov, used forced conscription for his army and had 2 secret police services. At least the Bolsheviks were honest and loyal to the working class and didn't work with reactionary forces. He was just another anarchist traitor like Kropotkin.

[dragonman98]

Yes, and I think what they were aiming for was Germany, but we all know what happened there.

[liravz]

Unfortunately the historical record shows that atrocities have been committed by those in positions of power as wielded through a state bureaucracy. Every nation state has committed horrific crimes, because of the monopoly it claims on violence and the means for violence. To get into a debate of worse-worst is to subvert the appropriate response to terror wherever,and by whomever, it is perpetrated. How about we pay attention to eliminating terror because it is an evil thing?

[liravz]

Russia under Stalin was a terrible place, but what about these countries whose rulers received crucial support from the USA, and the silent millions who suffered indescribable torture: Vietnam: Diem, Ky, etc.; Indonesia & East Timor: Suharto; Philippines: Marcos; Nicaragua: Somoza; Dominican Republic: Trujillo; Guatemala: Rios Montt, Hector Gramajo, Mejia-Victores, etc.; El Salvador: military juntas and assorted strongmen like Roberto D'Aubuisson; Pinochet in Chile; Stroessner in Paraguay...

[liravz]

Since we are discussing matters of death camps, starvation, and other forms of torture, how about we talk about the crimes of liberal democracy under the direction of capitalism. What has flown under the radar is how the lessons of crowd control practiced in Stalinist Russia have been employed by the West, especially by the USA. Redirection, projection, and otherwise narrowing the scope of debate has led to such things as focusing on the enemy's crimes, which are hideous, but ignoring one's own.

[jetmtn]

Yeah Mustard when I think of Nazis I think of anti-war and people being afraid to offend other races. I don't know what your idea of left wing is but nazism ain't it.

[mustardchimney]

"Nazi" is a nickname based on the first two syllables of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers' Party). It is what it is... Sorry for telling the truth.

[Scifinutthrawn]

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." -Shakespeare. (Although here we're talking about something closer akin to a putrid viper than a sweet rose.) Just becasue the Nazis used the word "Socialism" in their name (Or just becasue Stalinists called themselves "Communists") doesn't mean that they have anything in common with the ideals of real socialists (or communists).

[majorMcpharter]

Real Socialism/Communism = A Classless Stateless Moneyless system of society.

[uncloser]

i think that no reason to paint in black something from the past and fight around it. I think that all people should only know that not all want to be a slaves of money and those who control it.

[mustardchimney]

So we should wipe the slate clean and forget about the millions that starved, were murdered, sent to the gulags and re-education camps, or forced to confess thought crimes? The Soviet Union was not romantic as some try to paint, it was a death camp. The whole point of Communism is to take away a persons right to have his own life; ones life belongs to the masses. Self sacrifice ( mind & body) for others is their ideology. If you wish to live like that, fine, but don't require me to. Deal?

[uncloser]

i know this crap. and i know that you live in a country whose government can kill a lot of people in your and other countries without to be punished. i talk not about that. How to live to those who don't want to be a prostitutes, doesn't want to obey to crime and doesn't want to take money from people?

[shawn0303]

Mustard, they talked about that in this video? Did you even watch the video? The "Nazism = socialism" bit is played out. I would think that this isn't even an appropriate place to discuss the issue.

[mustardchimney]

You and every other leftist are a metaphysical monstrosity. And don't give me any of that crap about facism and Nazi's being on the far right side of the political spectrum, facism is on the far left along side communism. Facism has nothing to do with the individual. The Nazi's were socialists, it's in their name for god's sake. The individual owns the far right.

[mustardchimney]

"Just give communism another chance, and we'll get it right this time, it wasn't communism that failed, it was Stalin, or whoever... give us another 100 million bodies to sacrifice".

[mustardchimney]

Capitalism is the only system that is purely fair to the individual, an individual lives and dies by his own work, fate, intelligence, etc. Any other system is pure evil. The left have been making excuses for the Soviet Union ever since they could no longer hide the truth about how it was merely a slaughterhouse, and this video continues to do the same.

[david052856]

capitalism does have its many flaws....but at least theoretically under capitalism an individual has the oprotunity to rise in ecomomic status

[killingvegans]

You show an extremely inept understanding of the inner workings of capitalism. At the very least, you sure as hell haven't shown how "the individual lives and dies by his own work, etc." How about you stop posting mushy-headed tripe, and go back to your troll cave, where you belong.

[mustardchimney]

Great, I'm an inept, mushy-headed troll. Now that that's settled, what about communism being directly responsible for millions that died of starvation and murder? It happened, that's a fact. How can you defend that? How can you support a second chance for Communism after what happened the 1st time? What if you're wrong and it really is Communism that was directly responsible, and it happens again? After 100 million deaths, I'm stunned anyone would even consider supporting another chance.

[higgism]

I've always considered myself a Trotskyist. Glad you put up this video.

[snrfrito]

For a great long time I considered myself to be a staunch socialist until I began to question two important planks of socialism: the establishment of a central bank (similar to the criminal and illegal Federal Reserve in the US) and the taking of one's wealth for the benefit of another.

Any responses?

[killingvegans]

That sounds like something Mises or von Hayak would say. The "taking of one's wealth for the benefit of another" has nothing to do with socialism. This criticism is a straw man peddled by the likes of the Chicago school of economics, and co.. I personally wouldn't take it seriously. We must remember who it is who creates wealth: the workers. Thus the workers have every right to take that which is theirs.

[snrfrito]

Sounds like it makes sense. I have always praised Marxist theory for its soundness, and I totally agree with the desired end-result of a world without government or currency; but, the fact of the matter is, it seems socialism leaves too much opportunity for corruption to overtake the entire system, paving the way for another Stalin or Mao.

Your thoughts?

[dragonman98]

See, the reason why Russia, China and all of the other countries failed is because the countries weren't in the right stage. Marx said that in order for a communist society to truly exist, it must come from a developed capitalist society. There are five stages that all civilizations must go through, primitivism, slave state, feudalism, capitalism, then socialism. Russia and China? They were still stuck in Feudalism. All that the "communist revolutions" did was get rid of that.

[killingvegans]

Yes, to an extent that is correct. However, the Bolsheviks believed that their revolution in Russia would spark revolutions in the advanced countries (they damn well nearly did), which would be able to bring Russia's backward economy up to speed relatively fast.

[majorMcpharter]

The brutal regime which collapsed in the former eastern bloc was State Run Capitalism.The workers remained wage slaves forced to sell their labour power to the State Employer.Abolish the wages system comrades.

[dragonman98]

Yes, the Russian and Chinese had a little bit of capitalism in their countries, but the "communist" revolutions made them more capitalist. China today is more capitalist than America. Yes, we should abolish the wages system.

[hectorbolshevik]

The Soviet Union and the East bloc states were not State Run Capitalism. To have capitalism there must be a bourgeois ruling class, with with complete private ownership. In the USSR and their allies the ruling bureaucracy was not a separate class, but a privelaged parasitic caste. Their power rested on the collectivized economy not on private property.

[AeroplaneFliesHigh22]

The Russians were failing under war communism so they needed capitalism to build an economy before they could truely obtain their classless utopia.....thus the NEP

[marxist29]

No. Every country on earth in locked into world capitalism. Russia and China whilst they were undeveloped feudal states they were still locked into the world capitalist economy ( as shown by Russia's involvement in the first world war). These undeveloped states do not have an independent bourgeoisie it is tied to it's aristocracy. Therefore the bourgeoisie is incapable overthrowing feudalism and it falls to the proletariat to do this. They must then begin the task of building world socialism.

[ddsep]

The proliferation of videos such as this clarifying the Russian Revolution, and the many views they receive (with the many positive comments as well) are an indelible sign of what is to come. Capitalism becomes more discredited in the eyes of the peoples of the world everyday.

[Filipp1993]

I luv the capitalism i live in

[gunzdestiny]

wow this video makes this alot clearer on the role of trotsky. i started this research about 3 days ago, 4 my eng essay. i was confused and lost 4 unless hrs.. wat to write, wat was trotsky's strengths and his keys in teh revolution. But this video made it clear. better than reading text after text.

[lalo6437]

Great to see someone telling the truth about what really happened to the Russian Revolution.

You have all my support.

[jackdebook]

Marx believed all human struggle was between social classes. But wait - who do you think is fighting all these wars, people??? or governments??? I see all human struggle between people and their governments which they can't control. Control your governments all over the world and watch life get better. But gov knows this and keeps the people - uneducated - thats why people let a bunch of 'imsms' control their lives without even knowing about it (spkng bout the bulk of the world - not all)

[Futurecast]

Capitalism is also an ISM.

[jackdebook]

Lenin tried to force Communism straight from Capitalism - bypassing Socialism. According to Marx as I've read, workers take over a Capitalist society, and form a Socialism. Then gradually government dissolves over time and Communism emerges. Dont know how, but this is what he believed. Lenin tried to jump a step - and Lenin ordered state sponsored terrorism too, not just Stalin or Bush as some think.

[jackdebook]

all i know is this - if someone is trying to make the world better - you can not force and control the people - let alone order the deaths of your own people - this goes both for Stalinism, Leninism and Capitalism. All these are different then Communism as described by Marx and Engels - they saw a gradual change from Capitalism to Socialism to Communism, after the working class took control. Lenin and everyone else failed cause they did not follow Marx.

[ddsep]

Not correct. Read Trotsky's theory of Permanent revolution, this is the theoretical basis on which the Russian revolution took place. It was based on a Marxist analysis of the state of Russian capitalism in 1917 which had nothing progressive to offer the masses and so would compel them to seize power for themselves completing a permanent socialist revolution.

[sch7les]

Excellent video. The only reason that the capitalist system is still standing is because every single communist party in history has betrayed the very ideals it stood for. Had the aborted 1919 German revolution succeeded, communism would have probably spread to all of Europe, eventually the United States. The Stalinist bureaucracy would not have come into power, and the capitalist system would most likely have been overthrown.

[WindowOpportunity]

By far the most sophisticated and successful socialist governemnt is the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei

[killingvegans]

By far the least sophisticated and most unsuccessful argument I've ever heard. Stop posting worthless dribble on my page.

[Psycarne]

Stalin was a fucking traitor, he made it his role to dismantle workers democracy and consolidate power.

[urameshiyaaa]

wsws(dot)org

[nickvanzetti]

many of the old Bolsheviks were not so innocent. i'm not defending Stalin , or I'm not 100 percent behind him but i know he was very valuable to the revolution and is always the scapegoat for the reason why Communism won't work.Communist must unite against the capitalist and stop nit picking about Stalin and Trotsky. none of us were there. who knows what really happened. we must build our own Socialism based on todays experiences and take whats good from all the leaders and writers of the past.

[nickvanzetti]

Stalin is the father of modern Russia. Because Russia is a "capitalis" country many are looking back at the history of their country and are discovering the truth of their history. Khrushev betrayed the revolution (world communist) by not supporting other struggles throughout the world. from that point on Russia became a Colonial power looking to control all struggles on their terms and for their benefit.

[nickvanzetti]

I'm not saying Stalin didn't make mistakes or that The Soviet union during those years was paradise and without terror,famine,deportations,for­ced labor camps etc. Stalin was the scapegoat for all of this and few realize that he tried to introduce more democracy in the country but was voted down. Stalin I believe,tried to make Russia Socialist as quick as possible Hence the 5 year plans and forced collectivization.

[urameshiyaaa]

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[nickvanzetti]

Stalin made mistakes but i think it was Khrushev and those to follow who destroyed the Revolution. I have doubts about Trotsky and his dealings with wall street. Like it or not Stalin is a hero of the Russian people. They remember and honor him and not Trotsky.

[lolcudlol]

Yeah, but to quote A.P.J Taylor "Trotsky's a champ". I'm afraid you can't fight the facts.

[ladaladaladalada]

30 million happy customers

[Tahmus]

If you had an e-mail it would be much easier. 1) The Bolsheviks established the recalling of all soviet officials, worker's control of industry, land to the peasants, and control of the democratic soviets; which is something the Provisional Government would not permit. The Polish didn't, and the soviets in their country were crushed at an earlier date before the Soviets counter-attacked Polandm, 3) It called for a cooridinated and unified party that acted in accordance to it's objectives.

[Tahmus]

If you payed attention to the video, the kulaks had been holding their grain in order to raise prices and thus make a large profit for themselves, their harvests were low anyway, malnourishment was already rampant, and the urban centers were on the verge of famine, so I don't find it to be "man-mide" whatsoever. Trotsky's very own son died from the famine, and many soviet officials died from malnourishment, so it is not like the Bolsheviks "man-made" such a disaster.

[Tahmus]

Do you think that 110,000 American, Japanese, Canadian, British, Turkish, and French soldiers, along with a naval blockade that stopped the flow of capital and vital supplies to Russia is a "half -hearted" attempt to strangle the country?

[Tahmus]

I think you fail to realize that to conduct a war in the conditions that the young Soviet Republic was in at that time, when it was facing a bloody civil war and imperialist encirclement amidst complete economic and societal breakdown that was already occuring, would require extroadinary measures to be taken. I think it's obvious that Lenin and the Bolsheviks wouldn't of been in power for more than a few days if they truly did not "have the backing of the working class".

[pilotesseJ]

A+ and blank stares I bet

[PMishkin]

What are you thoughts on 1)polish corridor 2)disolving the National Assembly 3) "What is to be Done" elitism and contempt for spontaneity in labor movement?

[Tahmus]

Well, 1) If it was taken, the Soviets could of militarily supported the German Revolution, thus stopping the rise of the bureaucracy by bringing socialism to Europe and Russia, 2) It was neccesary because they didn't support the soviets, and it became a battle between the democratic bodies of the urban workers and democratic bodies of the peasants, petit-bourgeois, and non-militant workers, and 3) It was not elitist.

[19Levine19]

The true gravediggers of the Russian Revolution? Lenin and Trotsky. No amount of Bolshevik apologism can hide the massacre of the Kronstadt sailors by the fledgling state-capitalist bureaucracy.

All power to the Soviets, none to the parties!

[PMishkin]

"all power to the Soviets without Bolsheviks"- Kronstadt: a symbol of revolution from below no longer.

[killingvegans]

Kronstadt has been addressed by various sources many times over. As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead issue.

Nothing hurts the Left more then when people don't comprehend the conditions of war, dearth, and the general conditions that arises in these circumstances. They like to moralize, pass judgment on situations that are beyond their grasp. So let me break this down:

[killingvegans]

The actions taken by the Bolsheviks under the conditions of civil war, have nothing to do with the self aggrandizement of the Stalinist bureaucracy and the political genocide they committed against the original cadre of October. The Bolsheviks were the only power left, since most other parties were taking arms against them. And thus they were taking arms against the socialist revolution, which they represented. So their "one party" rule, was de facto.

[killingvegans]

The Left SRs just walked out, due to the fact that they wanted to resume war with Germany and Austria, and if they couldn't do that through the Soviets, then they would wage it in a terroristic manner (a form of that came in killing off Bolsheviks through assassinating them).

[killingvegans]

You can't admit that 14 nations invaded the country, that whole industrial centers were depopulated, that production went down 15%, etc, and then whine about absolutely necessary measures. If the anarchists had their way, the working class of Russia would have been dead in the water, with the ascension of a White Government, which would have performed ghastly reprisals against the working class and their leadership.

[killingvegans]

Kronstadt wasn't a "Marxist" revolt. By 1921 more than three quarters of the sailors in the Baltic Fleet stationed at Kronstadt were recent recruits of peasant origin. This was the opposite of the situation in 1917, when the majority were recruited from the industrial centre of Petrograd, the heart of the workers' revolution in Russia.

[killingvegans]

Petrichenko, the leader of the uprising of March 1921, was himself a Ukrainian peasant, and later acknowledged that many of his fellow mutineers were peasants from the south who were in sympathy with the peasant opposition movement against the Bolsheviks. And due to their backward nature, one could find the most disgusting habits, whether it be speculation to antisemitism. Further evidence of vicious antisemitism is apparent in memoirs of a seaman involved in the Kronstadt rising.

[killingvegans]

In a passage referring to the Bolshevik regime as the "first Jewish republic", he called the Soviet government's ultimatum to retreat "the ultimatum of the Jew Trotsky." What happened was A NON-ELECTED Provisional Revolutionary Committee charged with administrating the city took over. All military leaves were canceled, a curfew was imposed and exit of any persons from the island was banned without special permission. It was a declaration of war against the Bolshevik state.

[killingvegans]

The links with the Whites is also known now: "Lenin's suspicion of an international conspiracy linked up with the Kronstadt events has been vindicated by the discovery of a handwritten memorandum preserved in the Columbia University Russian Archive, dated 1921 and marked 'Top Secret.' The document includes remarkably detailed information about the resources, personnel, arms and plans of the Kronstadt rebellion.

[killingvegans]

It also details plans regarding White army and French government support for the Kronstadt sailors' March rebellion. Its title is 'Memorandum on the Question of Organizing an Uprising in Kronstadt.''"A breakdown in morale would be inevitable if the insurgent sailors were not to receive assurances of sympathy and support from the outside, in particular from the Russian Army commanded by General Wrangel.

[killingvegans]

Further, the rising was seen as 'a very rare opportunity-an opportunity that probably will not be repeated-to seize Kronstadt and inflict upon Bolshevism the heaviest of blows, from which it may not recover.'

[killingvegans]

About 600 sailors at Kronstadt died in the event, others were taken prisoner. However, compared to the number of casualties among the Bolshevik defenders of the workers' state was estimated at 10, 000, including among the dead some 15 delegates to the Bolsheviks' Tenth Party Congress. So for all the cries of atrocity...(and don't get me wrong Kronstadt was a tragedy, for both sides), the anarchist is like the nationalist who wants to only explicate what happened to their side.

[killingvegans]

Lenin through the last years of his life struggled against Stalin and the bureaucracy for Soviet Democracy, and this struggle was continued by Trotsky and the Left Opposition. He wasn't an Angel, and usually, we don't work with Angels.

[killingvegans]

Youtube doesn't let you post links. The World Socialist Web Site has an article entitled "a letter and reply on the Kronstadt rebellion."

It's worth reading. It's under the "history section.