Conversations with History - Edward N. Luttwak

[karesstasse]

HAHAHAHA!!.. isn't Ol' harry kreisler dead yet?... hahah cough up the inheritence!

[Moslemtroglodytes]

Τhere is a story how the Nicean emperor John Vatazis was walking around the ruins of Pergamon astonished by the the wonders of ancient Greece that and telling his entourage that after all it was all the work their own ancestors.The Byzantine philosopher George Gemisthos Plithon put this new feeling in memorable words "'Ελληνες γαρ εσμέν το γένος ως η τε φωνή και η πάτριος παιδεία μαρτυρεί" ("We are Greek in terms of race(nationality) as is witnessed both by our language and native culture").

[Moslemtroglodytes]

The point of ancient Greek culture in Byzantium is also far from sure.From the beginning in the 4th c. to the 14th century the very term "Hellene" was synonymous with "pagan"."Hellenism" meant "idolatry".How could anybody in the Christian empire be proud of his "Hellenic" roots?Surely,the educated classes wrote and read classical Greek but felt to be Romans,not Greeks.This changed only with the decline of the state and the reconsideration of its identity in the 13th and especially 14th c.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

The barbarians that overflooded the West in the 5th c. ,except for Huns, were all Christians but belonged almost all to the "wrong" Arian sect that made them unacceptable to the Catholic native population.The Arabs wouldn't have overrun Byzantium's Eatern provinces so easily had there been no mortal enmity and grievances between local Monophysitism that welcomed the Bedouin invaders as lesser evil than the hated Orthodoxy imposed by the capital.

[ImEternalWanderer]

@Moslemtroglodytes Luttwak did mentioned that the loss of Monophysite lands were a blessing in disguise. Despite the large loss of revenue (grains and tax) and manpower; it strengthen the Empire unity: no more Chalcedonians vs. Monophysites.

You were right about the ascendency of the nobles though: peasants got impoverished, loss of free men for militia and finally the disband of militia force (the source of strength of the Empire frontiers) for fear of uprisings.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@ImEternalWanderer "Despite the large loss of revenue (grains and tax) and manpower; it strengthen the Empire unity: no more Chalcedonians vs. Monophysites." On second thoughts one might argue though that losing fertile and densely populated lands on behalf of a hostile and extremely violent religion bent on destroying Byzantium cost what it might was an illusory blessing. In fact it did strengthen Byzantium's mortal enemy as the lost vast resources were used now against it . 

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@ImEternalWanderer The Monophysites became object of forcible conversions to Islam, exploitation and discrimination based on shariah.Their knowledge was used to build Moslem navy that immediately started ravaging the Byzantine lands.The men were recruited to provide the auxillary forces and manned the ships that assailed Constantinople in 717-718.Incidentally, on that occasion the Monophysite crews defected en masse to their old adversaries preferring them to their new Arab masters.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@ImEternalWanderer So what sort of "blessing" is something which only increases the impending dangers and multiplies the strength and resolve of your mortal enemy making war with him more and more difficult,exhausting,and protracted?Besides,every lost square mile of ancient Byzantine territory was interpreted by the Moslem aggressors and haters of the Christian Empire as a visible sign of Allah's blessing which further stimulated their aggressive zeal to conquer more and more.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@ImEternalWanderer Bear in mind also another circumstance.The territories lost to the Arabs in the 30-ies and 40-ies of the 7th century had been lost a decade or two before to the Persians.Nobody saw any blessing in it at all. Quite the contrary ! As a result Heraclius' iron will and genius managed not only to reconquer them all but to bring war to the heart of Persia Proper leveling the main Zoroastrian Fire Temples to the ground and finishing that terrible war among the ruins of Niniveh.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@ImEternalWanderer Again, nobody at the emperor's court spoke at that time about any blessing of losing Syria, Palestine and Egypt to the Zoroastrian religion and at last of getting rid of Monophysitim. So why this change of mind when dealing with the much more terrible Moslem aggresion and its successes? Well, the sad thing is that Heraclius was no longer young and lost his previous faith and will.Otherwise he would have ended also this war among the smouldering ruins of Mecca and Medina.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

The decline of Byzantium coincided with the ascendency of egoistic noble clans that considered and partitioned the state as their fiefs even before the Fourth Crusade in 1204.This is the real reason for Byzantium's long life and final death.Wise strategy,intelligence and force were secondary.Christianity looked like the ancient Etruscan god Ianus.It had one face that smiled and unified while its other face represented unending heresies,schisms,persecutions,­quarrels that weakened the state.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

The East had enough native population and limited barbarian immigration,even the Slavs that occupied the Balkans and parts of Greece were outbalanced by the native Greeks of Anatolia.What reinforced this was a wise policy up to c. 1081 that aimed at supporting and favoring free peasantry from whom the army was recruited and suppressing big land owning aristocracy that grew at the expense of free peasants.As long as free peasantry wasn't destroyed by aristocracy Byzantium was flourishing.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

Very interesting even though there seems to be a number of questionable points he makes.First,the contrast between Rome and Byzantium is not as sharp as he stresses.Both had the same strategy , e.g. "Divide and rule".The reason why Eastern Rome survived and Western Rome fell is not strategy but demography and interior policy in the first place.In the West there were fewer and fewer Romans and more and more barbarians through mass barbarian immigration that undermined and toppled the state.

[PsychotronicWar]

If the United States wants to survive, then the Americans should study - in details - the Military Strategy of the Byzantine Empire (and not that of Rome).

[lord19561]

@PsychotronicWar i don't think so, respectfully ; i think the best one for America is still strenghtening themselves with a source of new stratefy based on the ancien roman one : it would be difficult, i admit that, but it is the way to come back being the first ones in absolute. America hava all the means to go into that way, attacking instead of defending only, es enemies of the great country are attacking continously (when i say means, of course i mean military and economics: still first !

[PsychotronicWar]

@lord19561 : Well, there is a problem with that; Rome collapsed under its own weight, something which starts to become visible with U.S. Please, do not misunderstand me, I am for U.S. The issue is that Byzantine Empire was a reality for a millennium (395–1453) while the Roman one was far less (27 BC–AD 476). Why? Because Byzantines managed to manipulate their enemies appropriately in order for them to survive. It's a long but interesting discussion and thank you for it...

[lord19561]

@PsychotronicWar thank you friend !

[ImEternalWanderer]

@lord19561 It would be ill-advised to do so. To begin with, the US is a democracy, going back to Imperial strategy is going to be unsavory for a large part of the population; and wikileaks isn't making it easier.

Even the current (modest) expenditure for involvement around the world is almost breaking the US treasury. Government debt is pretty high. It's an ominous sign but still recoverable. Doing anything more is dangerous.

[ImEternalWanderer]

@lord19561 Imperial Rome was forced to fight wars all over because they fell threaten by everyone around them. Then pretty much the best and only way for advancement in Rome was military career (Many emperors were generals); thus, war become Rome favourite past -time.

The US are not threaten by anyone. It is surrounded by ocean, Canada (nothing) and Mexico (only a lot of immigrants). If the US wants to stay strong, they can try being Japan.

[ImEternalWanderer]

@lord19561 Japan is very xenophobic and protective of their own economics. They are willing to export their cars and LCD TVs but will resist import, for the sake of protection of their industry. Outsourcing is unthinkable (at least for their key industry). The US is only too happy to do the opposite; in the name of free trade theory. The way the US do will very well enrich the richest but will impoverish the rest; which is pretty evident. You can read "The endangered American dream", by Luttwak.

[lord19561]

@ImEternalWanderer got it : I read that book !

[GeorgesGlass]

Utterly amazed by Luttwak in this video. His image as portraited on US media is totaly different.

He should be more carefull and don't let himself be consumed on TV talk shows.

A truly important american.

[BalkanibalX]

Ooooh I am sooo gona play Medieval 2: Total War again, with the Byzantium of course

[Setzer]

Yeah I'm not sure it's completely ethical to go and bribe other countries around Afghanistan to fight for us. Although we've tried this and we've armed some with weapons to some pretty disastrous results. It cost more to fight the war ourselves, but we can hold the people fighting accountable that way, and make sure that we are minimizing collateral damage and other things that will inevitably blow back on us.Rather than strategically destabilizing we need to strategically stabilize countries

[ImEternalWanderer]

@Setzer One point Luttwak did not pointed out is that friends and foes quite frequently change place from time to time. Luttwak pointed out quite clearly in his book that the Bulghars, were Byzantine friends, then foe, then friend over and over again. Quite frequently within the life time of a single Bulghar king.

I think his point is, once you embrace this kind of strategy, you must prepare for the almost inevitability that today friend is tmr foe and vice versa.

SO what is the remedy?

[ImEternalWanderer]

@Setzer simple: you ditch the old friend but now foe, and go find new friend, over and over again.

Stability is hard to be obtained this way. But stabilizing foreign places is expensive and extremely hard to do; or at least in a civilized, democratic way. I'll just simply say that if Nazi Germany or Imperial European powers as they were back then were in the Middle East today, absolute tranquility would be obtained, albeit at the price of mountains of local people's dead bodies.

[Setzer]

@ImEternalWanderer The world is quite a bit different today, and though it's expensive to stabilize other nations, it's vitally important especially with nations that have access to WMD. Thus the cost of having friend turn foe could be dramatic not only for yourself, but for the world as a whole.

[ImEternalWanderer]

@Setzer The best way of using WMD is not to use it. Rather, it's a deterrence. North Korea or even Iran even if they have nuclear weapons, it's highly unlikely that they will go and bomb South Korea or Israel for the simple fact that they will be blown to pieces by the US nuclear arsenal.

That said, it typically preclude US conventional intervention anywhere close them. A desperate despot may ignore all the consequences and go out with a bang and bring lots of US troops with him.

[lord19561]

@ImEternalWanderer not olnly by the American arsenal : israel is perfectly able to defend itself sinking ALL its enemies whith its arsenal, and in case of necessity i think Israel will do it !

[ImEternalWanderer]

@lord19561 And that's exactly why the US should have NO business in the Middle East (at far as US troops are concerned). Israel alone is more than enough. They are perfectly capable of handling everyone close to them.

A few more friends around would be good. It would cost a lot less than sending people over.

[ImEternalWanderer]

@Setzer Nuclear energy is a really old technology and it's not a question of if bu when other nations will possess nuclear weapons. Though it's unlikely that they would ever be used (they were not used even in the deep-freezing days of the Cold War), their possession alone will preclude conventional army to attack them.

Thus recruiting allies is the next best option. The remaining problem is if the US public is willing to drop a nuclear bomb onto the next nuclear-happy despot once he use them

[MrLantean]

The Byzantines became very proficient in the art of diplomacy. They were surrounded by nations that were potentially allies or enemies. They chose to negotiate with enemies that were potential to become allies. Military conflict was only deployed as a final resort. Western Europe saw the Byzantines as weaklings because they refused to fight their enemies in battles. Western Europe solved most of their diplomatic problems through armed conflict.

[misermania]

engrossing

[murray1453]

Loved both books, and the fresh view he brought to the subjects.

[iqsquared]

Edward Luttwak will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue for the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website ‘Intelligence Squared’ for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.

[Pharnabaze]

"Si vis pacem para bellum" means to prepare for the war (defense)...not waging war...

[FlorianWZ]

@Pharnabaze Luttwak knows that quite well.

[plastikman1878]

09:21 - "War brings peace" - Right...That captures perfectly his original example of the definition of "Strategy" (a principle which should ideally not exist - at least in terms of conflict, but which is rather being promoted as a "natural science" since war is also portrayed as something natural): in order to reach peace (the destination), you have to take the most irrational and unexpected route, i.e. conflict. Sick motherfuckers with their sick "science".

[afzpuppet]

Interesting info on Byzantium.. Thx UC

[Mairinohailche]

it would be interesting by just seeing this warmongering israeli fascist turns my stomach.

[giosxx]

Εξαιρετικό - Excellent

[LachezarTsK]

Yes, it is really a fascinating, thought-provoking stuff !!!

[neamonitis1]

fascinating stuff !!!!