hard determinists are restricted to moral nihilism. Also if everything is predetermined there is no such thing as chance, luck, choice, good or bad. So what does this mean? This means that it's not wrong to kill, rape or torture people. 9/11 wasn't really a bad thing. Everything that happened, had to happen. There is no point in regretting anything. By understanding this, you become enlightened. You can't stop what's coming so you might as well just relax and try to enjoy your life.
@dervish2173 Fuck the stoics, and fuck Nietzsche. Determinism and Immoralism are not mutually exclusive, although determinism and absolute morality are incompatible. Our convictions are explained through evolutionary biology and are intrinsic to our humanity, whether or not they are relative. Also, Free Will and Determinism is a false dichotomy. Modern Physics shows that the universe is inherently probabilistic, nevertheless, we don't have free will in the same way a computer doesn't.
@GothicWiccan13 Who's controlling you? No one but yourself. Its really irrational and seemingly a weak way to live life by adhering to a statement such as free will. Clearly, we fail class in school for example, beacause of our irresponsibility. In the context of God, if there was no free will, everything is predestined and moving with God's pace regardless of wat effort we try to input, it means there would be no need for prayer. Please dont live on the mind-state of no-accountability.
Point 3 with God's omniscience is irrelevant. I know the sun will rise tomorrow, I am not forcing it to rise nor am I preventing it. I simply know what will happen.
@u3190 You suffer from the common misunderstanding of the problem.
It is not that God intentionally causes or forces us to do things. It is that he has an idea in his "head" of what we're going to do, and his idea cannot be wrong, so we cannot do anything but what he thinks we will do.
God always knew you would choose the user name "u3190". If you had failed to do so, God would have been wrong, and therefore you could not have failed to do so. If you cannot choose, then where's the free will?
Knowing and Doing are not the same. Knowing what we will 'do' does not take away our free will to 'do'. If I know what your are thinking, I am not forcing you to think, I'm simply observing what you think.
What a stupid question! Do we have Free Will, or is Everything predetermined? that is a leading question. Those are the only two options? What complete BullShit! It is obvious to all critical thing people that free will in innate in all humans (if one chooses to take control and act on our free will) and NOTHING is predetermined in the human decision making process. Why do these over-educated fools have to make everything so un-necessarily complicated?
@Flipstick96 "It is obvious to all critical thing people" is not an argument. It's alternate verbiage for "It is my wish and therefore it will be my belief".
Lol? Evrything that happens is caused to happen disproves that there is no free will. If we cause certain things to happen... then we do have free will.
@DuhIdiot1 Point is everything that happens is caused by human will and God's will together, not God just pointing fingers and us moving as if we're robots. Logically and rationally, its incoherent. You right now are not typing to me cuz ur being mind controled or something, u have ur choice of doing what ur doing right now. And even when it comes to God's providence, it is only accomplished once a human has set a cnodition from his own heart to complete it, then a foundation is laid.
@Jorge007dr I don't need to be mind controlled to have my actions determined. If what I'm typing is the necessary result of the arrangement of my brain, then I couldn't be doing anything other than typing this right now, despite my clear but wrong impression that I'm doing it optionally by choice.
Now, there are definitions of free will compatible with that scenario. But the idea of will as some magic bypass of physical causation is out the window if the brain is just chemistry.
@Jorge007dr By "God's providence" do you mean his infallible foreknowledge, as I was discussing with u3190? If so, then the question is simple: if God, right now, thinks that I will kill somebody tomorrow, then how can I fail to kill that person without God being wrong? If I can't fail to kill them, then how can I be said to have a choice in the matter? If I can't be said to have a choice, then how am I morally culpable?
@DuhIdiot1 No, by God's providence I mean what he has planned for the world. Providence, despensation. Meaning, God's Will in other terms. What God wants to be accomplished. And you make a fine point, if you were to want to kill smeone tomorrow, kill them, and stand in court and say "Thats not my fault, I have no choice in what i do. Some God made me do it, so therefore I cannot be indicted." That will make no rational or moral sense. We are all held accountable for the choiced we make.
This question can never be answered, the same way we'll never know if there's a God. This is mostly due to the fact that free will can have many definitions, meanings, and interpretations. My arguement is that everything is decided for you as you are in the womb...with genetics, and once you are born it is up to you to use what you have been given through your DNA to live and interact in the world with "free conscience and thought" meaning you can think and decide things for yourself.
God knowing what we are going to do does not discredit our free will. The choice is still everyone's individual choice as to who they will serve and everyone, knowingly or not, bows down to some God, whether that God is the sovereign God or themselves. God is a God of love and he draws each of us to him but being too stubborn to listen is not going to save any of us in the end "The fool (meaning wicked man in Hebrew) say's there is no God. Be brave enough to seek him and he will be revealed.
@chefshitpiece Nobody has ever claimed that we are born with a personality. A person's personality forms and can change throughout the course of one's life. Though DNA can have influence on personality, it does NOT determine who we will be. People can change, and they have.
@deadeyeselh The experiences we go thru are many and varied, but our DNA deternmines the parameters in advance of how our experiences will affect us. For example, someone born with a less active orbital layer in their frontal cortex will not be as receptive to lessons about empathy as the majority of people will be. Does this help you understand what I am getting at? One has to remember that the experiences we go thru act on a neural system that has ALREADY BEEN SET UP by nature (our DNA).
@chefshitpiece People born with "less active orbital layers in their frontal cortex" are usually people with ADD. There's medication for that and it works and has changed the lives of many sufferers so that they can live normally. This is common knowledge anyway, what's your point? Most people suffer from "some" form of mental incapacity. Look at the people who run Fox, look at the people who watch Fox, great example. Also, the statement "what you think you become" is true, think about it.
@deadeyeselh Did you even read my model? Of course what you think is what you become, my argument is that your style of thinking is based, ultimately on your DNA...which shapes your brain...which shapes your personality. Look, all your doing is throwing fluff at me.
@chefshitpiece I'm throwing fluff at YOU? You're the one that is trying to take a massive concept that we don't quite understand and making a very simple explanation of it. My argument is just as valid as yours. Besides, what you're explaining is not the fundamental aspect of what we're trying to figure out here. The human brain is just the surface of the argument, if you are right why don't you pick up your nobel peace prize?
@deadeyeselh The essence of my argument is that it is not a massive concept, it is really as simple as seven lines. Tell you what, you take my model, show me where I went wrong, and I will get back to you. If that doesn't work for you, then dont write back becuz I will not respond to anything else.
@chefshitpiece It seems we are both thinking of this in entirely different ways, good day. Also, it's not "your" model. I'm pretty sure you can count thousands of people in the world are thinking the very same thing this second, maybe even arguing about it on different Youtube videos.Well, I guess to top things off...I completely agreed with your model the whole time, but since your going to road block new ideas, I matters well move on.You're like a Catholic,one way thinking, and a total prick.
@qqqqq2411 I understand what you mean....we are all swept up by a collective consciousness that is larger and more powerful than we are. But every thing that you do in your personal life is significant....Chaos theory.....if a butterfly flaps its wings on the great wall of china...etc. If you can change one persons life....if you could see it....you may have changed a thousand.....
@rnjkings, I agree with your video but must add that if strict determinism isn't true--for example "random" events happening at the quantum level--that still doesn't mean free will is. In fact, supposed randomness happening at the quantum level couldn't be freely chosen; and thus such "randomness" is unsupportive of the free will issue. Also, supposed random events happening at the quantum level would merely become part of the causal network. Predestination would be impossible as would free will
Also, I've learned that adding unnecessary complexity to the issue of free will results in befuddlement. The argument should be kept in realm of science instead of the sometimes wildly argumentative field of philosophy. The brain is a very complex physical system. And discussions of free will can never lead to any sort of understanding of the structure, state, and processes of such a system. The neuroanatomy & physiological chemistry of the brain determine personality & behavior, not "free will"
@unseenstrings I mostly disagree, The root of the personality is primal sexual/social but environment and upbringing and relationship sociology, friendship, choice itself....which I make every day no matter what my subconscious mind is....and believe me its foul....over the course of your life is the larger determining factor when it comes to personality.....Choose your own personality if you will.....the sociology of animals is tough though.
@marhoekfu, primal is indicative of genetic; social is indicative of environment; a slash (/) is ambiguous but commonly is used to mean or. What does your slash mean? I say personality is the consequence of genetic-environmental interaction. (BTW, a hyphen is used to join words. The individual cannot be separated from the genetic-environmental interaction that created him.)
What would CAUSE me to WANT to change my personality? (You do not consciously predetermine the WANT that you experience)
@unseenstrings You are basically implying that what you just wrote was complete determinism...cause and effect....and you had nothing to do with it.....no choice of your own was involved in you writing that sentence....will you reply to this one...is it your choice to respond....or do you exist at the expense of determinism? Quantum mechanics and free will are intimate as what you choose and create....manifest in physical reality. Parallel universe theory.
@marhoekfu, I am the end result of my genes & the environmental circumstances to which I've been exposed as an individual. That is, I am who I am because of cause & effect. But that does not mean I am incapable of choice anymore than it means my Chihuahuas are incapable of choosing which food they prefer or which trail they'd rather run down. I am a functioning biological unit just as they are. But I have the capacity for complex language, which my dogs don't have. And that gives me an advantage
We are far from knowing all there is to know about the quantum realm of reality. And as a result, we really don't know how much of our present "knowledge" is based on illusion. Since free will is an illusion, quantum mechanics and free will are only related insomuch as some illusions presently exist in quantum mechanics. Besides, quantum theory has no more to do with the human brain than it does with other complex physical systems. Is quantum theory injected into discussions of whale brains?
@unseenstrings The deterministic arena of cosmology and quantum mechanics is the arena....the stage for free will and free choice to take place. Your will is your will. Being swept up by such a larger consciousness/environment ones will may seem dwarved by it...insignificant....but changing one life....can change a thousand over the generations.
My will is my will, like my hand is my hand or my brain is my brain. I didn't create it for myself. It is the result of cause and effect. It developed and functions independent of my conscious awareness. "Man can indeed do what he wants, but he cannot control what it is that he wants." (Der Mensch kann tun was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will)--Arthur Schopenhauer
Sure you can change if you experience the WANT necessary to stimulate you into striving for change
@unseenstrings I both Agree and Disagree....I believe you are a combination of cause and effect and also how you handled that external causation...Did you react to all external stimuli....did you count to ten....did you rise above. I believe also that you are the product of your own conscious choices and the significance thereof is more profound than you are acknowledging in your own personality.
@marhoekful, your awareness & your ability to function are always preceded by the gene-environment that have made you into who you are (including capacity for future change)
The person who counts to 10 is the person whose previous learning experiences taught him such is necessary. The person who doesn't count to 10 had either never been taught to do so, or the lesson wasn't learned well enough to be effective
Lessons can consist of "learning transference" or direct observation & experience
Of course individual choices have an impact on who he (or she) is and on future choices via feed back mechanisms within the brain. Remember, we are dynamic biological units--not unchangeable machines. If I chose to buy a friend some lady's cashmere lined lambskin gloves for her birthday, and she turned out to be a member of a group that was against using animal skin for apparel, then I assure you I wouldn't make that choice again.
Who I am, who you are, both are determined by cause and effect
if you will open the bible it is stated that we people has a will of choice. in other words a FREE WILL as what you have discussed. we are free to choose what is good and what is evil. God made it to us a gift. like Adam and Eve. You can clearly think that why did God put the Forbidden tree in the garden of Eden along with the devil? the answer is so simple God gave them the FREE WILL TO CHOOSE. I agree by your own idea but i think all does not fit. but you're good.
What is your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-6? What about Ephesians 2:4-10? And what about Romans 8:28-30? And also, Romans 9:10-15? And what is meant by Romans 9:20-21? And 2 Timothy 1:9? And also, Acts 13:48? What about 2 Thessalonians 2:13? And Revelations 13:8? And also, Ecclesiastes 7:13? This can go on and on...
Why did St. Augustine teach we have no free will? Why did Thomas Aquinas teach predestination? Why do different Christian scholars and groups disagree vehemently on such issues?
What precisely is the "will" and is it free from the previously development and current function of the brain? Seems to me the will is analogous to the wind. Wind is merely a descriptive term meaning moving air. Our ignorant ancestors probably thought the wind could exist independent of any other thing. After all, they were the ones who invented free will. When a gazelle decides to get a drink of water, does the choice prove free will? Can a robot EVER be built to be as smart as you? Free will?
@unseenstrings You are correct, at a less evolved consciousness, choice exists at a more rudimentary, instinctual level and following basic instincts such as feeding oneself could be argued as not being a choice perhaps...but at a higher level of consciousness there have been demonstrations of great resistance to basic instincts. A robot more intelligent than a human would make choices based purely on logic. A human is mired with emotion and sexuality for example.
@marhoekful you mean at a higher conscious level such as that of dolphins or maybe my dogs? Instincts are not mechanical in construction. Instincts are biological; they are dynamic. Instincts can by modified by circumstance. Thus organisms can adapt to new and varying environments. When instinct sends an impulse to my dog to poop, she has learned not to poop immediately. She goes out the doggy door and poops in the yard. Human instincts (sexual instinct, pack instinct, etc) are just as adaptable
@unseenstrings I agree......The Root layer of the human conscious is rudimentary..animalistic...instinctual and adaptable. The higher aspect of the human consciousness can be altruistic or unusually cruel....a sinner or a saint if you will. Can Create or react....Can be Cause or can be effect.
Every event caused by a human being is but an effect of previous causes and effects. When a person smokes pot, something or a combination of things contributed to the choice. The conformity instinct. Striving for status. Seeking alleviation of pain. The influence of the words and actions of others. The idea didn't pop into the mind or creep into existence by magic.
And research into "split-brain" patients suggest that the human rhetorically justifies behavior, no matter how irrational.
Also, altruism seems to be genetic. But as is in the case of other instinctive mechanisms, natural altruistic tendencies can be enhanced with positive reinforcement or suppressed to the point of extinction with negative reinforcement. My deceased step-dad believed that humans aren't evil by nature; but "Satan" created/creates circumstances that made/makes individuals develop evil tendencies. Therefore he was a Christian that didn't believe in the Dogma of Eternal Damnation. I surely miss him.:-(
@unseenstrings The real question is why is such an intelligent person such as yourself quoting such an ambigous book of reference. Do you know what Thomas Aquinas taught? No. Do you know what St. Augustine taught. No. Debating whether or not there is free will is silly. I make choices every day...My will is very positive...but my mind is very negative. That power....that choice......is extraordinary.....This created reality is a demonstration of the power of choice.
@marhoekful, I'm not a student of theology. Nor am I a student of Aquinas/Augustine. That fact holds true for the majority of people today. However, during my 63 years of life, I have read excerpts of both. And I have read criticisms of both in my philosophical readings. I'm certainly not completely ignorant of Aquinas & Augustine as you seem to suppose. Paul-Henri Thiry, Baron d'Holbach seems to express my sentiments well (facts4u com/SysNat1.pdf) & (facts4u com/SysNat2.pdf).
The will is analogous to the wind. Our ignorant ancestors once thought the wind was something existing separate from anything else. Come to find out, wind is nothing more than natural forces acting upon air. Wind could not exist without the causal forces that produced it. To say the wind is free may be poetic, but it is a nonsensical statement, as is the statement, "the will is free."
Your brain is a single organ made up of modules. No you separate from you exists. All is created by the brain
@unseenstrings All I am saying is that It is my opinion that not everything in the bible is an accurate account of what anybody said. I dont doubt your knowledge and education.
"...the Bible [for me is] a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."--Albert Einstein
"It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies."--Mark Twain
I dislike the curses (ploys) written in The Bible against anyone who disbelieves it.
@hiawathabanias We are not free to choose what is good and what is evil.....we are free to choose between the two. Good is good and evil is evil......its just that simple.
The problem with this way of looking at things is that the question lacks a single frame of reference. If you look at a deterministic system, then of course everything is causation, but that's not what free will is about. Free will means that agents, are allowed to make choices according to their own nature.
This happens all the time in our universe, it is undeniable that the brain that is you considers inputs and makes decisions leading to actions that it deems appropriate.
The mere fact that the universe, at least at the macro level, is deterministic, has no bearing on the fact that you are making choices. If the universe was different, say you had a billion times as much money as you do now, you'd be making different choices. Your complaint seems to be mostly that you can't act against your own nature, but if your nature was different, how could you still claim to be you?
Your argument is good at showing we can't be morally responsible towards a God though.
How the universe really is cannot take away our sense of free will however illusory it may be. It also does not diminish our sense for how things ought to be, so we foolishly work towards making a better future for ourselves.
hard determinists are restricted to moral nihilism. Also if everything is predetermined there is no such thing as chance, luck, choice, good or bad. So what does this mean? This means that it's not wrong to kill, rape or torture people. 9/11 wasn't really a bad thing. Everything that happened, had to happen. There is no point in regretting anything. By understanding this, you become enlightened. You can't stop what's coming so you might as well just relax and try to enjoy your life.
dervish2173 6 months ago 2
@dervish2173 Fuck the stoics, and fuck Nietzsche. Determinism and Immoralism are not mutually exclusive, although determinism and absolute morality are incompatible. Our convictions are explained through evolutionary biology and are intrinsic to our humanity, whether or not they are relative. Also, Free Will and Determinism is a false dichotomy. Modern Physics shows that the universe is inherently probabilistic, nevertheless, we don't have free will in the same way a computer doesn't.
bryanpicchiottino 6 months ago
@bryanpicchiottino I'm sorry my English isn't good, is your statement defending determinism or free will?
dervish2173 6 months ago
@dervish2173 neither. I think i was just pissed off or something. But i personally do not accept free will if you'd like to know.
bryanpicchiottino 6 months ago
@bryanpicchiottino
Our lives are determined by our decisions
Which are determined by our values
Which make up our personality
Which is stored in our pre-frontal cortex
Which is wired by our DNA
Which is bestowed on us by luck.
Comments...concerns...questions?
HedgehogRebellion 1 month ago
@GothicWiccan13 Who's controlling you? No one but yourself. Its really irrational and seemingly a weak way to live life by adhering to a statement such as free will. Clearly, we fail class in school for example, beacause of our irresponsibility. In the context of God, if there was no free will, everything is predestined and moving with God's pace regardless of wat effort we try to input, it means there would be no need for prayer. Please dont live on the mind-state of no-accountability.
Jorge007dr 7 months ago
Point 3 with God's omniscience is irrelevant. I know the sun will rise tomorrow, I am not forcing it to rise nor am I preventing it. I simply know what will happen.
u3190 8 months ago
@u3190 You suffer from the common misunderstanding of the problem.
It is not that God intentionally causes or forces us to do things. It is that he has an idea in his "head" of what we're going to do, and his idea cannot be wrong, so we cannot do anything but what he thinks we will do.
God always knew you would choose the user name "u3190". If you had failed to do so, God would have been wrong, and therefore you could not have failed to do so. If you cannot choose, then where's the free will?
DuhIdiot1 8 months ago
@DuhIdiot1
Knowing and Doing are not the same. Knowing what we will 'do' does not take away our free will to 'do'. If I know what your are thinking, I am not forcing you to think, I'm simply observing what you think.
u3190 8 months ago
@u3190 OK, let's get Socratic.
Did God know before you were even born that one day you would post comments on YouTube vids and that you would do so under the pen name u3190?
DuhIdiot1 8 months ago
What a stupid question! Do we have Free Will, or is Everything predetermined? that is a leading question. Those are the only two options? What complete BullShit! It is obvious to all critical thing people that free will in innate in all humans (if one chooses to take control and act on our free will) and NOTHING is predetermined in the human decision making process. Why do these over-educated fools have to make everything so un-necessarily complicated?
Flipstick96 9 months ago
@Flipstick96 "It is obvious to all critical thing people" is not an argument. It's alternate verbiage for "It is my wish and therefore it will be my belief".
DuhIdiot1 8 months ago
we have a choice.
but the choice we have, is very little...
the choice we have is always a yes or no kinda thing.
since options and questions come from different people...
DAMN IT I CANT ENPLANE IT!
xeadm 9 months ago
Lol? Evrything that happens is caused to happen disproves that there is no free will. If we cause certain things to happen... then we do have free will.
Jorge007dr 10 months ago
@Jorge007dr If "everything that happens" includes your choices, then how do you have free will if all your choices are determined?
DuhIdiot1 8 months ago
@DuhIdiot1 Point is everything that happens is caused by human will and God's will together, not God just pointing fingers and us moving as if we're robots. Logically and rationally, its incoherent. You right now are not typing to me cuz ur being mind controled or something, u have ur choice of doing what ur doing right now. And even when it comes to God's providence, it is only accomplished once a human has set a cnodition from his own heart to complete it, then a foundation is laid.
Jorge007dr 8 months ago
@Jorge007dr I don't need to be mind controlled to have my actions determined. If what I'm typing is the necessary result of the arrangement of my brain, then I couldn't be doing anything other than typing this right now, despite my clear but wrong impression that I'm doing it optionally by choice.
Now, there are definitions of free will compatible with that scenario. But the idea of will as some magic bypass of physical causation is out the window if the brain is just chemistry.
DuhIdiot1 8 months ago
@Jorge007dr By "God's providence" do you mean his infallible foreknowledge, as I was discussing with u3190? If so, then the question is simple: if God, right now, thinks that I will kill somebody tomorrow, then how can I fail to kill that person without God being wrong? If I can't fail to kill them, then how can I be said to have a choice in the matter? If I can't be said to have a choice, then how am I morally culpable?
DuhIdiot1 8 months ago
@DuhIdiot1 No, by God's providence I mean what he has planned for the world. Providence, despensation. Meaning, God's Will in other terms. What God wants to be accomplished. And you make a fine point, if you were to want to kill smeone tomorrow, kill them, and stand in court and say "Thats not my fault, I have no choice in what i do. Some God made me do it, so therefore I cannot be indicted." That will make no rational or moral sense. We are all held accountable for the choiced we make.
Jorge007dr 7 months ago
This question can never be answered, the same way we'll never know if there's a God. This is mostly due to the fact that free will can have many definitions, meanings, and interpretations. My arguement is that everything is decided for you as you are in the womb...with genetics, and once you are born it is up to you to use what you have been given through your DNA to live and interact in the world with "free conscience and thought" meaning you can think and decide things for yourself.
deadeyeselh 10 months ago
God knowing what we are going to do does not discredit our free will. The choice is still everyone's individual choice as to who they will serve and everyone, knowingly or not, bows down to some God, whether that God is the sovereign God or themselves. God is a God of love and he draws each of us to him but being too stubborn to listen is not going to save any of us in the end "The fool (meaning wicked man in Hebrew) say's there is no God. Be brave enough to seek him and he will be revealed.
itsourmusic 1 year ago
Our lives are based on our Decisions.
Our decisions are based on our Perspective.
Our perspective is based on our Personality.
Our personality is in the front part of our Brain.
Our brains wiring is determined by our DNA.
And our DNA is DUMB. FUCKING.LUCK!!!!!
Therefore, LIFE = LUCK!
chefshitpiece 1 year ago
@chefshitpiece Nobody has ever claimed that we are born with a personality. A person's personality forms and can change throughout the course of one's life. Though DNA can have influence on personality, it does NOT determine who we will be. People can change, and they have.
deadeyeselh 10 months ago
@deadeyeselh The experiences we go thru are many and varied, but our DNA deternmines the parameters in advance of how our experiences will affect us. For example, someone born with a less active orbital layer in their frontal cortex will not be as receptive to lessons about empathy as the majority of people will be. Does this help you understand what I am getting at? One has to remember that the experiences we go thru act on a neural system that has ALREADY BEEN SET UP by nature (our DNA).
chefshitpiece 10 months ago
@chefshitpiece People born with "less active orbital layers in their frontal cortex" are usually people with ADD. There's medication for that and it works and has changed the lives of many sufferers so that they can live normally. This is common knowledge anyway, what's your point? Most people suffer from "some" form of mental incapacity. Look at the people who run Fox, look at the people who watch Fox, great example. Also, the statement "what you think you become" is true, think about it.
deadeyeselh 10 months ago
@deadeyeselh Did you even read my model? Of course what you think is what you become, my argument is that your style of thinking is based, ultimately on your DNA...which shapes your brain...which shapes your personality. Look, all your doing is throwing fluff at me.
chefshitpiece 10 months ago
@chefshitpiece I'm throwing fluff at YOU? You're the one that is trying to take a massive concept that we don't quite understand and making a very simple explanation of it. My argument is just as valid as yours. Besides, what you're explaining is not the fundamental aspect of what we're trying to figure out here. The human brain is just the surface of the argument, if you are right why don't you pick up your nobel peace prize?
deadeyeselh 10 months ago
@deadeyeselh The essence of my argument is that it is not a massive concept, it is really as simple as seven lines. Tell you what, you take my model, show me where I went wrong, and I will get back to you. If that doesn't work for you, then dont write back becuz I will not respond to anything else.
chefshitpiece 10 months ago
@chefshitpiece It seems we are both thinking of this in entirely different ways, good day. Also, it's not "your" model. I'm pretty sure you can count thousands of people in the world are thinking the very same thing this second, maybe even arguing about it on different Youtube videos.Well, I guess to top things off...I completely agreed with your model the whole time, but since your going to road block new ideas, I matters well move on.You're like a Catholic,one way thinking, and a total prick.
deadeyeselh 10 months ago
@qqqqq2411 I understand what you mean....we are all swept up by a collective consciousness that is larger and more powerful than we are. But every thing that you do in your personal life is significant....Chaos theory.....if a butterfly flaps its wings on the great wall of china...etc. If you can change one persons life....if you could see it....you may have changed a thousand.....
marhoekful 1 year ago
@rnjkings, I agree with your video but must add that if strict determinism isn't true--for example "random" events happening at the quantum level--that still doesn't mean free will is. In fact, supposed randomness happening at the quantum level couldn't be freely chosen; and thus such "randomness" is unsupportive of the free will issue. Also, supposed random events happening at the quantum level would merely become part of the causal network. Predestination would be impossible as would free will
unseenstrings 1 year ago
Also, I've learned that adding unnecessary complexity to the issue of free will results in befuddlement. The argument should be kept in realm of science instead of the sometimes wildly argumentative field of philosophy. The brain is a very complex physical system. And discussions of free will can never lead to any sort of understanding of the structure, state, and processes of such a system. The neuroanatomy & physiological chemistry of the brain determine personality & behavior, not "free will"
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@unseenstrings I mostly disagree, The root of the personality is primal sexual/social but environment and upbringing and relationship sociology, friendship, choice itself....which I make every day no matter what my subconscious mind is....and believe me its foul....over the course of your life is the larger determining factor when it comes to personality.....Choose your own personality if you will.....the sociology of animals is tough though.
marhoekful 1 year ago
@marhoekfu, primal is indicative of genetic; social is indicative of environment; a slash (/) is ambiguous but commonly is used to mean or. What does your slash mean? I say personality is the consequence of genetic-environmental interaction. (BTW, a hyphen is used to join words. The individual cannot be separated from the genetic-environmental interaction that created him.)
What would CAUSE me to WANT to change my personality? (You do not consciously predetermine the WANT that you experience)
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@unseenstrings You are basically implying that what you just wrote was complete determinism...cause and effect....and you had nothing to do with it.....no choice of your own was involved in you writing that sentence....will you reply to this one...is it your choice to respond....or do you exist at the expense of determinism? Quantum mechanics and free will are intimate as what you choose and create....manifest in physical reality. Parallel universe theory.
marhoekful 1 year ago
@marhoekfu, I am the end result of my genes & the environmental circumstances to which I've been exposed as an individual. That is, I am who I am because of cause & effect. But that does not mean I am incapable of choice anymore than it means my Chihuahuas are incapable of choosing which food they prefer or which trail they'd rather run down. I am a functioning biological unit just as they are. But I have the capacity for complex language, which my dogs don't have. And that gives me an advantage
unseenstrings 1 year ago
We are far from knowing all there is to know about the quantum realm of reality. And as a result, we really don't know how much of our present "knowledge" is based on illusion. Since free will is an illusion, quantum mechanics and free will are only related insomuch as some illusions presently exist in quantum mechanics. Besides, quantum theory has no more to do with the human brain than it does with other complex physical systems. Is quantum theory injected into discussions of whale brains?
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@unseenstrings The deterministic arena of cosmology and quantum mechanics is the arena....the stage for free will and free choice to take place. Your will is your will. Being swept up by such a larger consciousness/environment ones will may seem dwarved by it...insignificant....but changing one life....can change a thousand over the generations.
marhoekful 1 year ago
My will is my will, like my hand is my hand or my brain is my brain. I didn't create it for myself. It is the result of cause and effect. It developed and functions independent of my conscious awareness. "Man can indeed do what he wants, but he cannot control what it is that he wants." (Der Mensch kann tun was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will)--Arthur Schopenhauer
Sure you can change if you experience the WANT necessary to stimulate you into striving for change
Naturalism Org
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@unseenstrings I both Agree and Disagree....I believe you are a combination of cause and effect and also how you handled that external causation...Did you react to all external stimuli....did you count to ten....did you rise above. I believe also that you are the product of your own conscious choices and the significance thereof is more profound than you are acknowledging in your own personality.
marhoekful 1 year ago
@marhoekful, your awareness & your ability to function are always preceded by the gene-environment that have made you into who you are (including capacity for future change)
The person who counts to 10 is the person whose previous learning experiences taught him such is necessary. The person who doesn't count to 10 had either never been taught to do so, or the lesson wasn't learned well enough to be effective
Lessons can consist of "learning transference" or direct observation & experience
unseenstrings 1 year ago
Of course individual choices have an impact on who he (or she) is and on future choices via feed back mechanisms within the brain. Remember, we are dynamic biological units--not unchangeable machines. If I chose to buy a friend some lady's cashmere lined lambskin gloves for her birthday, and she turned out to be a member of a group that was against using animal skin for apparel, then I assure you I wouldn't make that choice again.
Who I am, who you are, both are determined by cause and effect
unseenstrings 1 year ago
if you will open the bible it is stated that we people has a will of choice. in other words a FREE WILL as what you have discussed. we are free to choose what is good and what is evil. God made it to us a gift. like Adam and Eve. You can clearly think that why did God put the Forbidden tree in the garden of Eden along with the devil? the answer is so simple God gave them the FREE WILL TO CHOOSE. I agree by your own idea but i think all does not fit. but you're good.
hiawathabanias 1 year ago
What is your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-6? What about Ephesians 2:4-10? And what about Romans 8:28-30? And also, Romans 9:10-15? And what is meant by Romans 9:20-21? And 2 Timothy 1:9? And also, Acts 13:48? What about 2 Thessalonians 2:13? And Revelations 13:8? And also, Ecclesiastes 7:13? This can go on and on...
Why did St. Augustine teach we have no free will? Why did Thomas Aquinas teach predestination? Why do different Christian scholars and groups disagree vehemently on such issues?
unseenstrings 1 year ago
What precisely is the "will" and is it free from the previously development and current function of the brain? Seems to me the will is analogous to the wind. Wind is merely a descriptive term meaning moving air. Our ignorant ancestors probably thought the wind could exist independent of any other thing. After all, they were the ones who invented free will. When a gazelle decides to get a drink of water, does the choice prove free will? Can a robot EVER be built to be as smart as you? Free will?
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@unseenstrings You are correct, at a less evolved consciousness, choice exists at a more rudimentary, instinctual level and following basic instincts such as feeding oneself could be argued as not being a choice perhaps...but at a higher level of consciousness there have been demonstrations of great resistance to basic instincts. A robot more intelligent than a human would make choices based purely on logic. A human is mired with emotion and sexuality for example.
marhoekful 1 year ago
@marhoekful you mean at a higher conscious level such as that of dolphins or maybe my dogs? Instincts are not mechanical in construction. Instincts are biological; they are dynamic. Instincts can by modified by circumstance. Thus organisms can adapt to new and varying environments. When instinct sends an impulse to my dog to poop, she has learned not to poop immediately. She goes out the doggy door and poops in the yard. Human instincts (sexual instinct, pack instinct, etc) are just as adaptable
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@unseenstrings I agree......The Root layer of the human conscious is rudimentary..animalistic...instinctual and adaptable. The higher aspect of the human consciousness can be altruistic or unusually cruel....a sinner or a saint if you will. Can Create or react....Can be Cause or can be effect.
marhoekful 1 year ago
Every event caused by a human being is but an effect of previous causes and effects. When a person smokes pot, something or a combination of things contributed to the choice. The conformity instinct. Striving for status. Seeking alleviation of pain. The influence of the words and actions of others. The idea didn't pop into the mind or creep into existence by magic.
And research into "split-brain" patients suggest that the human rhetorically justifies behavior, no matter how irrational.
unseenstrings 1 year ago
Also, altruism seems to be genetic. But as is in the case of other instinctive mechanisms, natural altruistic tendencies can be enhanced with positive reinforcement or suppressed to the point of extinction with negative reinforcement. My deceased step-dad believed that humans aren't evil by nature; but "Satan" created/creates circumstances that made/makes individuals develop evil tendencies. Therefore he was a Christian that didn't believe in the Dogma of Eternal Damnation. I surely miss him.:-(
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@unseenstrings The real question is why is such an intelligent person such as yourself quoting such an ambigous book of reference. Do you know what Thomas Aquinas taught? No. Do you know what St. Augustine taught. No. Debating whether or not there is free will is silly. I make choices every day...My will is very positive...but my mind is very negative. That power....that choice......is extraordinary.....This created reality is a demonstration of the power of choice.
marhoekful 1 year ago
@marhoekful, I'm not a student of theology. Nor am I a student of Aquinas/Augustine. That fact holds true for the majority of people today. However, during my 63 years of life, I have read excerpts of both. And I have read criticisms of both in my philosophical readings. I'm certainly not completely ignorant of Aquinas & Augustine as you seem to suppose. Paul-Henri Thiry, Baron d'Holbach seems to express my sentiments well (facts4u com/SysNat1.pdf) & (facts4u com/SysNat2.pdf).
Naturalism Org
unseenstrings 1 year ago
The will is analogous to the wind. Our ignorant ancestors once thought the wind was something existing separate from anything else. Come to find out, wind is nothing more than natural forces acting upon air. Wind could not exist without the causal forces that produced it. To say the wind is free may be poetic, but it is a nonsensical statement, as is the statement, "the will is free."
Your brain is a single organ made up of modules. No you separate from you exists. All is created by the brain
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@unseenstrings All I am saying is that It is my opinion that not everything in the bible is an accurate account of what anybody said. I dont doubt your knowledge and education.
marhoekful 1 year ago
"...the Bible [for me is] a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."--Albert Einstein
"It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies."--Mark Twain
I dislike the curses (ploys) written in The Bible against anyone who disbelieves it.
unseenstrings 1 year ago
@hiawathabanias We are not free to choose what is good and what is evil.....we are free to choose between the two. Good is good and evil is evil......its just that simple.
marhoekful 1 year ago
The problem with this way of looking at things is that the question lacks a single frame of reference. If you look at a deterministic system, then of course everything is causation, but that's not what free will is about. Free will means that agents, are allowed to make choices according to their own nature.
This happens all the time in our universe, it is undeniable that the brain that is you considers inputs and makes decisions leading to actions that it deems appropriate.
Gnomefro 2 years ago
The mere fact that the universe, at least at the macro level, is deterministic, has no bearing on the fact that you are making choices. If the universe was different, say you had a billion times as much money as you do now, you'd be making different choices. Your complaint seems to be mostly that you can't act against your own nature, but if your nature was different, how could you still claim to be you?
Your argument is good at showing we can't be morally responsible towards a God though.
Gnomefro 2 years ago
Love the video. What is the music? :)
neadst 2 years ago
Great video,
really insightful
SimplyReligiousEd 3 years ago
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06clared 3 years ago
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SimplyReligiousEd 3 years ago
How the universe really is cannot take away our sense of free will however illusory it may be. It also does not diminish our sense for how things ought to be, so we foolishly work towards making a better future for ourselves.
rotate85 3 years ago
Pleased you like it. My (A-level) students took a while to work out why I used the music I did!
rnjkings 4 years ago
Thank you for uploading this. It helps makes these difficult concepts accessible
I think it is a brilliant film and will be really useful to me
deut1 4 years ago